3.0 vs 3.5 [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

3.0 vs 3.5 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mastroyo
02-10-05, 10:19 AM Could someone explain, in simple terms and general ideas, why is 3.5 considered so much better than 3.0?
I'm not even considering the change, for every book here costs almoust U$100, and i'm not going to spend so much on evey book.

Is the change necessary? I mean, i've read about differences and stuff, but has it improved anything considerably (or fixed something...)?
clarkvalentine
02-10-05, 10:28 AM Many things are fixed. Several spells are much better balanced (haste comes to mind), the Ranger is fixed, the "actions" system is simplified, DR is simplified and IMO improved.

If you have the 3.0 books and don't want to buy 3.5, keep the 3.0 books for advancement rules, and get the 3.5 reference online from www.opengamingfoundation.org.
The Listener
02-10-05, 10:31 AM As a new player just entering the Role Playing arena this year, the whole 3.0/3.5 argument is quite confusing. I think my groups that I'm in play 3.0, but I have no idea on how to tell the difference. Luckilly, they're quite leniant on books, so I can mooch off their 3.0 books, as I don't want to buy a 3.5 book and end up not using it.
Cantankerous
02-10-05, 10:35 AM Too, hit E-Bay and some of the other sites of that type. $100.00 US is ridiculous. You can pick up all three Core Books in 3.5 editions for considerably less than half combined for all three by looking around those types of sites. The SRD is all you really NEED to do an upgrade from 3.0 to 3.5. , but I've found the layout of the 3.5 books tighter and cleaner and the slightly different way things are explained and slanted to be so highly superior that it was well worth the money to get them.

But... you don't need them. I used it that way myself for about seven months before getting the 3.5 editions... which I still don't have at easy reach somehow; but that still doesn't slow things down at all really, as I've got the 3.5 SRD and all the 3.0 Core Books in Adobe format on a data stick. You don't need anything more.

Isshia
mastroyo
02-10-05, 10:57 AM $100.00 US is ridiculous. You can pick up all three Core Books in 3.5 editions for considerably less than half combined for all three by looking around those types of sites.
Isshia

Well, you've missed one thing. I'm so far away you wouldn't believe, so, considering there are like 5 bookstores that sell those books, and they charge whatever they like... And a buy through ebay or amazon is not likely to do wonders in prize, 'couse import taxes and shipping prizes are not low. Consider I live in Chile, the last country in the map if you look it up.
100$ could be too much, I know. But the FRCS costs that. The PHB and DMG are at least $60.

This is why I have just recently started playing 3rd edition. :P

PS: You're lucky. You live in cental Europe.
Kaboth
02-10-05, 11:03 AM Like someone said you can print the 3.5 SRD, just need a lot of paper. It has a good majority of the information classes, spells, combat, monsters, magic items, epic material, etc.... I am sure someone has a link with the entire and all SRD material. After you print up everything, find someone or someplace that has a 3 ring hole punch and punch all the paper, then get dividers and 3 ring notebooks and organize them how ever you please.

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html

Try that link...
loklok1138
02-10-05, 11:04 AM Not to be contrary, but I would guess that Moldova is the least country on earth, not Chile.
Nytmare
02-10-05, 11:16 AM If you're listing alphabetically, it'd be Zimbabwe.
astute1
02-10-05, 12:01 PM And if you go by size, it's the Vatican.

But more to the point - if you have the 3.0 books, and you want to download the rest of the stuff from the SRD, it won't cost you anything. The changes from 3.0 to 3.5 are not huge, but they fix a lot of issues that were really annoying, especially as far as balancing the classes (rangers and bards got significant upgrades) and some of the spells (haste and harm were changed significantly.) Most of the other changes took care of clarity issues - removing partial actions, eliminating multiple levels of cover, etc.
Lord Ian Stark
02-10-05, 12:25 PM My personal answer to what is better, 3.5 is. Do you have to rebuy the books you have for a 3.5 version? Hell no, download it.

However, all books that have been coming out for some time now have been 3.5 version anyway so you might as well update (internet download) or you will have to take any book you buy and downgrade it to 3.0. If you don't you will be clueless as to why the books are doing certain things without 3.0 feats/skills and how combat rounds are figured, etc.
Lord Brat
02-10-05, 12:42 PM I'm considering switching from 3.0 to 3.5, so I'd like to thank everyone that has posted so far.

Lord Ian Stark brings up an interesting point. I've been playing with the Core 3.0 books but I have also been purchasing splat books and additional material for D&D but how would I know what version each book is.

I have:
5 soft-cover class books (T&B, MotW, etc)
BoVD, BoED, MotP
I've just picked up Complete Divine, and I'm almost certain that it's 3.5.

Could anyone educate me on when the 3.0/3.5 cut-over was, or what version my books are? Thanks in advance. If my group finds out that most of the new content they've been playing with is 3.5, it would make a transition to Core 3.5 much smoother.

Lord Brat
Reinforcements
02-10-05, 01:27 PM I prefer 3.5 to 3.0, but I wouldn't say it's much, much better. The biggest reason to play 3.5 to my mind it that it's the one being supported. You could probably convert things to 3.0 with little difficulty, but I know it would drive me crazy.

Lord Brat,
The paperback "splat" books are 3.0. Manual of the Planes and the Book of Vile Darkness are also 3.0. The Book of Exalted Deeds and Complete Divine are 3.5. Other books:

3.0
Psionics Handbook
Deities and Demigods
Monster Manual II
Fiend Folio
Arms and Equipment Guide

3.5
The "Complete" books
The "Races of" books
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Draconomicon
Libris Mortis
Unearthed Arcana
Monster Manual III
Frostburn
Sandstorm
Planar Handbook
All Eberron products

I'm probably forgetting a few. Also, I left off the Forgotten Realms books.
Lord Ian Stark
02-10-05, 01:53 PM Lord Brat is right! I have had a question in mind about my Forgotten realms books. I'm sure the Campain book is 3.0 but I have the Races of Faerun. It doesn't say it's 3.5 compliant. Although it does say it is compliant to the revised 3rd ed which are probrably one and the same. However that book came out at around the same time as 3.5 came out (I believe). It could not have been fixed to 3.5 in so short a time when you think of mass producing a book and the time it takes at each stage.

An answer from a WOTC guy or maybe a link to a page that has this info would be welcome. :D
mastroyo
02-10-05, 02:39 PM Ok, didn't know that 3.5 enhancements were free. And yes, my country is in the lower left side of the map, and considering distances to first world countries, I would say it's the last one. :D
Thanks for the help, i'm going to the SRD to read first, evaluate and then decide to switch or not.

But what if i've been using some 3.5 books and never changed some 3.0 rules? Like the ranger, that I DM one in my campaign is 3.0, but i've faced him with 3.5 monsters...?

Am I making a huge mistake? I thought 3.5 was an expansion and improvement of the rules...?!?
clarkvalentine
02-10-05, 03:12 PM But what if i've been using some 3.5 books and never changed some 3.0 rules? Like the ranger, that I DM one in my campaign is 3.0, but i've faced him with 3.5 monsters...?

Am I making a huge mistake? I thought 3.5 was an expansion and improvement of the rules...?!?

Relax, you're fine. :D It's probably best to pick one and stick to it, but you certainly haven't created any problems that can't be easily fixed.
DungeonMaster
02-10-05, 03:16 PM This is a contentious issue on the boards. No one can arbitrarily prove 3.5 "better". Some aspects of both game systems are awful some good. I find more awful things in 3.5 than 3rd edition and what good it offers is smothered.
If you havn't had any problems with your current system I don't suggest changing. It's really not worth the hassle or the money.

The worst aspect of 3.5 is the spells. The spells were "updated" in such poor fashion as to make it intollerable.
3.5 has "darkness" spells that create light, "forbiddance" spell that doesn't forbid you, "lesser geas" being stronger than "geas", traps that have unreachable DCs to find and disable for their CR, the list of problems goes on and on.
Using the search feature you'll find more discussion than you could ever want on this issue.

Happy gaming!
Lord Ian Stark
02-10-05, 03:24 PM So there is no all inclusive list of where all WOTC books stand in relativity to 3.0 or 3.5? How can that be? :confused:
clarkvalentine
02-10-05, 03:28 PM So there is no all inclusive list of where all WOTC books stand in relativity to 3.0 or 3.5? How can that be? :confused:

Not one that people have posted, anyway.

3.5 was released in early to mid 2003. Safe bet that anything after that is 3.5, before is 3.0.
Reinforcements
02-10-05, 03:53 PM I don't play FR, so I don't know that much about the books. I do know that the Campaign Setting book is 3.0. So is Races of Faerun. The Player's Guide to Faerun is 3.5, but I'm not sure if it's the first 3.5 FR book or not.
ksbsnowowl
02-10-05, 04:00 PM So there is no all inclusive list of where all WOTC books stand in relativity to 3.0 or 3.5? How can that be? :confused:3.5 was released in July of 2003, everything released that month or after is 3.5 (check the copyright page in the front). Those books published between January 2003 and June 2003 began to show changes as WotC led up to the conversion. The skills and feats of these books were written in 3.5 format, while things like DR remained in 3.0 format.

As others have said, the 3.0 vs 3.5 topic can be a touchy one, but in the end, ask yourself this: "Has the 3.0 rules system caused me significant problems, such that it impinges upon the enjoyment I and my players recieve from the game?"

If some aspect of the game is too ambiguous that its possible interpretations have caused arguments in your group, or there are some mechanics that really bother you, check out the 3.5 SRD. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the 3.0 books are sufficient, and I'd rather spend my money on getting more suppliments, rather than paying for three books that are 95% the same as the books I've already got.

Besides, overall I prefer the 3.0 rules-set. There are a few things from 3.5 that I like (the 3.5 ranger, for example), and I incorporate them if I see a reason to do so, but there are too many changes to the 3.5 rules that just don't sit well with me; but to each his own.
Nom
02-10-05, 04:37 PM The main problems you will encounter on 3.0 vs 3.5 are going cross-version.

The lesser problem is published material, especially adventures. Some feats and skills have changed, so you may need to tweak them. Some CRs have been "fixed". But the biggest change to published material is that a lot of buff spell durations were reduced (eg bull's strength goes from 1 hr/lvl to 1 min/lvl), which can significantly change published tactics.

The greater problem is that there are a lot of subtle changes. If you do change to 3.5, I'd advise completely re-reading the rules (PH 1-10, DMG rules sections, any relevant spells, any relevant monsters), and read them without 3.0 assumptions. Every so often something (often spells) works completely differently, and you will get confused if you are still thinking 3.0. Also, some rules confusions exist because people know how 3.0 did it, and have that in the back of their mind when they read the new rule. When you read a rule, forget the 3.0 rule and let the text stand on its own.

That said, there's nothing wrong with sticking with 3.0 and houseruling in 3.5 stuff if you want.
True Cavalier
02-10-05, 05:11 PM We have upgraded to 3.5 but are still using 3.0 damage reduction rules.

No problems *shrug* Not that it's a mix too great to work or something.
Azual
02-10-05, 05:25 PM And if you go by size, it's the Vatican.

not true, the smallest is my personal bubble, it has its own GNP, and Import Tax. It also has very tight borders, NO ONE MAY TOUCH ME
Lord Ian Stark
02-10-05, 05:50 PM So the semi 3.x books that are both 3.0 and 3.5 are the hybrids. Like Races of Faerun. Cool. I can accept that. :D
Lord Brat
02-10-05, 07:18 PM Cool, thanks a lot Reinforcements. That helps a lot. (You also got in some other books that I had but didn't think it would make that much of a difference whether they were 3.0 or 3.5)

So, I'm trying to compile a list of differences of 3.0 vs. 3.5, outlining the benefits and drawbacks of each of my players. The more I hear about it, the less I'm liking 3.5. One of the things that concerns me is the little things that I'll probably miss: like the ability buff spells going down to min/level instead of round/level. Little things like that.

Right now 3.0 is working fine for my players and I. I just can't find enough benefits to 3.5 to justify a change. I'll probably houserule in some changes from 3.5, kind of like the opposite of what True Cavalier has done.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the discussion and different points of view. It's nice to be back on a helpful board instead of ones complaining about the game or other people or other negative drivel.

Lord Brat
Lincoln Hills
02-10-05, 07:37 PM Could someone explain, in simple terms and general ideas, why is 3.5 considered so much better than 3.0?... Is the change necessary? I mean, i've read about differences and stuff, but has it improved anything considerably (or fixed something...)?

I play the original Third Edition ("3.0") and I enjoy it. It has defects... but they're so small and scattered that I manage to overlook them and go on playing the game.

3.5 is considered "so much better than 3.0" by some gamers. More power to them. What I have learned about it has not impressed me, but then, I started out determined not to be impressed: I believe the technical English term is "codger" - or possibly "coot". :smirk:

"Is the change necessary?" No. If you switched over to 3.5, you'd just end up having to modify anything that was too old. If you stick with 3rd edition, you'll have to modify anything that's too new. Either way, there'll be work involved: so I'd say: stick with the system you already know, and convert from the one you don't. (Same argument works the other way, if you had bought the 3.5 books first and were working with original 3rd edition stuff.)

3.5 has "improved or fixed" some things. I concede that. Unfortunately, I've also seen cases where it... shall I say unimproved, or unfixed, things? I'm trying to be helpful to you, Mastroyo, rather than getting people started: so I'll just say that in my opinion (not a statement of fact) certain changes were made to the "new edition" just so that it would be different enough to encourage folks to buy it. Nothing morally wrong with that: it's how marketing works: but I feel that the game itself would have been improved if they had only made necessary changes (such as that which was made to hold person) and contented themselves with sales of a "third printing" of the core books.
Nom
02-11-05, 07:55 AM so I'll just say that in my opinion (not a statement of fact) certain changes were made to the "new edition" just so that it would be different enough to encourage folks to buy it. Nothing morally wrong with that: it's how marketing works: but I feel that the game itself would have been improved if they had only made necessary changes (such as that which was made to hold person) and contented themselves with sales of a "third printing" of the core books.I think you're being somewhat unfair here.

Was 3.5 released earlier than it perhaps should have been, with more sweeping changes than would be usual for a mere "revision", for marketing reasons? Almost certainly. However, that's quite a ways from saying that changes were made to the ruleset primarily for the purpose of increasing the difference between the two editions, which it sounds like you are claiming.

Everything I have seen suggests that the thought process was "hey, I think it would be better if ..."; "OK, well they reckon we should publish a revision soon, so let's change it". But I've seen nothing that suggests that people went looking for change for change's sake, and I think you're being uncharitable to suggest it. It's certainly true that 3.5 made some important fixes to the 3.0 ruleset. It's quite likely that during this process they made some mistakes, or that some rules were changed that some people would have preferred unchanged (weapons sizes and DR are common points of discussion). But it's not really fair to claim that they made these changes in order to have a new edition. A fairer claim was that because of the incentive to release a new edition, they made too much change too soon.

In terms of a choice between editions, my personal feelings are that 3.5 is generally a better ruleset. If you're in a situation where it's equal effort to use 3.5 or 3.0, I'd commend 3.5. However, 3.5 is not sufficiently superior that it's worth upgrading purely for the sake of upgrading, and it's quite possible to retrofit 3.5 changes to 3.0 if you're careful about it.
astute1
02-11-05, 10:30 AM Everything I have seen suggests that the thought process was "hey, I think it would be better if ..."; "OK, well they reckon we should publish a revision soon, so let's change it". But I've seen nothing that suggests that people went looking for change for change's sake, and I think you're being uncharitable to suggest it.
Agreed. As far as I've seen, the thought process was, "Boy, we've had a lot of complaints about the way this works..." or "People are houseruling this one all over the place..."

The 3.5 books are nice. I like the ruleset quite a bit. When I heard they were going to be released, I was very skeptical, but it really only took hearing a few of the changes to make me decide to buy them. Would I pay $100 a book for them? No. I payed less than that for all three. Considering you can get all the important information of the SRD for free, I would consider not buying the books, especially if you don't have much cash, or live in a part of the world where the prices are higher.
Natalis
02-11-05, 11:26 AM Well, you've missed one thing. I'm so far away you wouldn't believe, so, considering there are like 5 bookstores that sell those books, and they charge whatever they like... And a buy through ebay or amazon is not likely to do wonders in prize, 'couse import taxes and shipping prizes are not low. Consider I live in Chile, the last country in the map if you look it up.
100$ could be too much, I know. But the FRCS costs that. The PHB and DMG are at least $60.

This is why I have just recently started playing 3rd edition. :P

PS: You're lucky. You live in cental Europe.

Wow...that�s outrages...but are you sure? I took a little peek at amazon.com and found that you can buy the Dungeons and Dragons Roleplaying Game: Core Rulebooks (Dungeons & Dragons(r) Gift Set) for about $60...that would mean all 3 core books for the price of one over there in chile....ofcourse I dont know what your country�s import taxes are....but it would have to be a lot....but like everybody said, you can use the 3.5 SRD just as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mastroyo 02-10-05, 10:19 AM	Could someone explain, in simple terms and general ideas, why is 3.5 considered so much better than 3.0? I'm not even considering the change, for every book here costs almoust U$100, and i'm not going to spend so much on evey book. Is the change necessary? I mean, i've read about differences and stuff, but has it improved anything considerably (or fixed something...)?
clarkvalentine 02-10-05, 10:28 AM	Many things are fixed. Several spells are much better balanced (haste comes to mind), the Ranger is fixed, the "actions" system is simplified, DR is simplified and IMO improved. If you have the 3.0 books and don't want to buy 3.5, keep the 3.0 books for advancement rules, and get the 3.5 reference online from www.opengamingfoundation.org.
The Listener 02-10-05, 10:31 AM	As a new player just entering the Role Playing arena this year, the whole 3.0/3.5 argument is quite confusing. I think my groups that I'm in play 3.0, but I have no idea on how to tell the difference. Luckilly, they're quite leniant on books, so I can mooch off their 3.0 books, as I don't want to buy a 3.5 book and end up not using it.
Cantankerous 02-10-05, 10:35 AM	Too, hit E-Bay and some of the other sites of that type. $100.00 US is ridiculous. You can pick up all three Core Books in 3.5 editions for considerably less than half combined for all three by looking around those types of sites. The SRD is all you really NEED to do an upgrade from 3.0 to 3.5. , but I've found the layout of the 3.5 books tighter and cleaner and the slightly different way things are explained and slanted to be so highly superior that it was well worth the money to get them. But... you don't need them. I used it that way myself for about seven months before getting the 3.5 editions... which I still don't have at easy reach somehow; but that still doesn't slow things down at all really, as I've got the 3.5 SRD and all the 3.0 Core Books in Adobe format on a data stick. You don't need anything more. Isshia
mastroyo 02-10-05, 10:57 AM	$100.00 US is ridiculous. You can pick up all three Core Books in 3.5 editions for considerably less than half combined for all three by looking around those types of sites. Isshia Well, you've missed one thing. I'm so far away you wouldn't believe, so, considering there are like 5 bookstores that sell those books, and they charge whatever they like... And a buy through ebay or amazon is not likely to do wonders in prize, 'couse import taxes and shipping prizes are not low. Consider I live in Chile, the last country in the map if you look it up. 100$ could be too much, I know. But the FRCS costs that. The PHB and DMG are at least $60. This is why I have just recently started playing 3rd edition. :P PS: You're lucky. You live in cental Europe.
Kaboth 02-10-05, 11:03 AM	Like someone said you can print the 3.5 SRD, just need a lot of paper. It has a good majority of the information classes, spells, combat, monsters, magic items, epic material, etc.... I am sure someone has a link with the entire and all SRD material. After you print up everything, find someone or someplace that has a 3 ring hole punch and punch all the paper, then get dividers and 3 ring notebooks and organize them how ever you please. http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/home.html Try that link...
loklok1138 02-10-05, 11:04 AM	Not to be contrary, but I would guess that Moldova is the least country on earth, not Chile.
Nytmare 02-10-05, 11:16 AM	If you're listing alphabetically, it'd be Zimbabwe.
astute1 02-10-05, 12:01 PM	And if you go by size, it's the Vatican. But more to the point - if you have the 3.0 books, and you want to download the rest of the stuff from the SRD, it won't cost you anything. The changes from 3.0 to 3.5 are not huge, but they fix a lot of issues that were really annoying, especially as far as balancing the classes (rangers and bards got significant upgrades) and some of the spells (haste and harm were changed significantly.) Most of the other changes took care of clarity issues - removing partial actions, eliminating multiple levels of cover, etc.
Lord Ian Stark 02-10-05, 12:25 PM	My personal answer to what is better, 3.5 is. Do you have to rebuy the books you have for a 3.5 version? Hell no, download it. However, all books that have been coming out for some time now have been 3.5 version anyway so you might as well update (internet download) or you will have to take any book you buy and downgrade it to 3.0. If you don't you will be clueless as to why the books are doing certain things without 3.0 feats/skills and how combat rounds are figured, etc.
Lord Brat 02-10-05, 12:42 PM	I'm considering switching from 3.0 to 3.5, so I'd like to thank everyone that has posted so far. Lord Ian Stark brings up an interesting point. I've been playing with the Core 3.0 books but I have also been purchasing splat books and additional material for D&D but how would I know what version each book is. I have: 5 soft-cover class books (T&B, MotW, etc) BoVD, BoED, MotP I've just picked up Complete Divine, and I'm almost certain that it's 3.5. Could anyone educate me on when the 3.0/3.5 cut-over was, or what version my books are? Thanks in advance. If my group finds out that most of the new content they've been playing with is 3.5, it would make a transition to Core 3.5 much smoother. Lord Brat
Reinforcements 02-10-05, 01:27 PM	I prefer 3.5 to 3.0, but I wouldn't say it's much, much better. The biggest reason to play 3.5 to my mind it that it's the one being supported. You could probably convert things to 3.0 with little difficulty, but I know it would drive me crazy. Lord Brat, The paperback "splat" books are 3.0. Manual of the Planes and the Book of Vile Darkness are also 3.0. The Book of Exalted Deeds and Complete Divine are 3.5. Other books: 3.0 Psionics Handbook Deities and Demigods Monster Manual II Fiend Folio Arms and Equipment Guide 3.5 The "Complete" books The "Races of" books Expanded Psionics Handbook Draconomicon Libris Mortis Unearthed Arcana Monster Manual III Frostburn Sandstorm Planar Handbook All Eberron products I'm probably forgetting a few. Also, I left off the Forgotten Realms books.
Lord Ian Stark 02-10-05, 01:53 PM	Lord Brat is right! I have had a question in mind about my Forgotten realms books. I'm sure the Campain book is 3.0 but I have the Races of Faerun. It doesn't say it's 3.5 compliant. Although it does say it is compliant to the revised 3rd ed which are probrably one and the same. However that book came out at around the same time as 3.5 came out (I believe). It could not have been fixed to 3.5 in so short a time when you think of mass producing a book and the time it takes at each stage. An answer from a WOTC guy or maybe a link to a page that has this info would be welcome. :D
mastroyo 02-10-05, 02:39 PM	Ok, didn't know that 3.5 enhancements were free. And yes, my country is in the lower left side of the map, and considering distances to first world countries, I would say it's the last one. :D Thanks for the help, i'm going to the SRD to read first, evaluate and then decide to switch or not. But what if i've been using some 3.5 books and never changed some 3.0 rules? Like the ranger, that I DM one in my campaign is 3.0, but i've faced him with 3.5 monsters...? Am I making a huge mistake? I thought 3.5 was an expansion and improvement of the rules...?!?
clarkvalentine 02-10-05, 03:12 PM	But what if i've been using some 3.5 books and never changed some 3.0 rules? Like the ranger, that I DM one in my campaign is 3.0, but i've faced him with 3.5 monsters...? Am I making a huge mistake? I thought 3.5 was an expansion and improvement of the rules...?!? Relax, you're fine. :D It's probably best to pick one and stick to it, but you certainly haven't created any problems that can't be easily fixed.
DungeonMaster 02-10-05, 03:16 PM	This is a contentious issue on the boards. No one can arbitrarily prove 3.5 "better". Some aspects of both game systems are awful some good. I find more awful things in 3.5 than 3rd edition and what good it offers is smothered. If you havn't had any problems with your current system I don't suggest changing. It's really not worth the hassle or the money. The worst aspect of 3.5 is the spells. The spells were "updated" in such poor fashion as to make it intollerable. 3.5 has "darkness" spells that create light, "forbiddance" spell that doesn't forbid you, "lesser geas" being stronger than "geas", traps that have unreachable DCs to find and disable for their CR, the list of problems goes on and on. Using the search feature you'll find more discussion than you could ever want on this issue. Happy gaming!
Lord Ian Stark 02-10-05, 03:24 PM	So there is no all inclusive list of where all WOTC books stand in relativity to 3.0 or 3.5? How can that be? :confused:
clarkvalentine 02-10-05, 03:28 PM	So there is no all inclusive list of where all WOTC books stand in relativity to 3.0 or 3.5? How can that be? :confused: Not one that people have posted, anyway. 3.5 was released in early to mid 2003. Safe bet that anything after that is 3.5, before is 3.0.
Reinforcements 02-10-05, 03:53 PM	I don't play FR, so I don't know that much about the books. I do know that the Campaign Setting book is 3.0. So is Races of Faerun. The Player's Guide to Faerun is 3.5, but I'm not sure if it's the first 3.5 FR book or not.
ksbsnowowl 02-10-05, 04:00 PM	So there is no all inclusive list of where all WOTC books stand in relativity to 3.0 or 3.5? How can that be? :confused:3.5 was released in July of 2003, everything released that month or after is 3.5 (check the copyright page in the front). Those books published between January 2003 and June 2003 began to show changes as WotC led up to the conversion. The skills and feats of these books were written in 3.5 format, while things like DR remained in 3.0 format. As others have said, the 3.0 vs 3.5 topic can be a touchy one, but in the end, ask yourself this: "Has the 3.0 rules system caused me significant problems, such that it impinges upon the enjoyment I and my players recieve from the game?" If some aspect of the game is too ambiguous that its possible interpretations have caused arguments in your group, or there are some mechanics that really bother you, check out the 3.5 SRD. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the 3.0 books are sufficient, and I'd rather spend my money on getting more suppliments, rather than paying for three books that are 95% the same as the books I've already got. Besides, overall I prefer the 3.0 rules-set. There are a few things from 3.5 that I like (the 3.5 ranger, for example), and I incorporate them if I see a reason to do so, but there are too many changes to the 3.5 rules that just don't sit well with me; but to each his own.
Nom 02-10-05, 04:37 PM	The main problems you will encounter on 3.0 vs 3.5 are going cross-version. The lesser problem is published material, especially adventures. Some feats and skills have changed, so you may need to tweak them. Some CRs have been "fixed". But the biggest change to published material is that a lot of buff spell durations were reduced (eg bull's strength goes from 1 hr/lvl to 1 min/lvl), which can significantly change published tactics. The greater problem is that there are a lot of subtle changes. If you do change to 3.5, I'd advise completely re-reading the rules (PH 1-10, DMG rules sections, any relevant spells, any relevant monsters), and read them without 3.0 assumptions. Every so often something (often spells) works completely differently, and you will get confused if you are still thinking 3.0. Also, some rules confusions exist because people know how 3.0 did it, and have that in the back of their mind when they read the new rule. When you read a rule, forget the 3.0 rule and let the text stand on its own. That said, there's nothing wrong with sticking with 3.0 and houseruling in 3.5 stuff if you want.
True Cavalier 02-10-05, 05:11 PM	We have upgraded to 3.5 but are still using 3.0 damage reduction rules. No problems shrug Not that it's a mix too great to work or something.
Azual 02-10-05, 05:25 PM	And if you go by size, it's the Vatican. not true, the smallest is my personal bubble, it has its own GNP, and Import Tax. It also has very tight borders, NO ONE MAY TOUCH ME
Lord Ian Stark 02-10-05, 05:50 PM	So the semi 3.x books that are both 3.0 and 3.5 are the hybrids. Like Races of Faerun. Cool. I can accept that. :D
Lord Brat 02-10-05, 07:18 PM	Cool, thanks a lot Reinforcements. That helps a lot. (You also got in some other books that I had but didn't think it would make that much of a difference whether they were 3.0 or 3.5) So, I'm trying to compile a list of differences of 3.0 vs. 3.5, outlining the benefits and drawbacks of each of my players. The more I hear about it, the less I'm liking 3.5. One of the things that concerns me is the little things that I'll probably miss: like the ability buff spells going down to min/level instead of round/level. Little things like that. Right now 3.0 is working fine for my players and I. I just can't find enough benefits to 3.5 to justify a change. I'll probably houserule in some changes from 3.5, kind of like the opposite of what True Cavalier has done. Anyway, thanks a lot for the discussion and different points of view. It's nice to be back on a helpful board instead of ones complaining about the game or other people or other negative drivel. Lord Brat
Lincoln Hills 02-10-05, 07:37 PM	Could someone explain, in simple terms and general ideas, why is 3.5 considered so much better than 3.0?... Is the change necessary? I mean, i've read about differences and stuff, but has it improved anything considerably (or fixed something...)? I play the original Third Edition ("3.0") and I enjoy it. It has defects... but they're so small and scattered that I manage to overlook them and go on playing the game. 3.5 is considered "so much better than 3.0" by some gamers. More power to them. What I have learned about it has not impressed me, but then, I started out determined not to be impressed: I believe the technical English term is "codger" - or possibly "coot". :smirk: "Is the change necessary?" No. If you switched over to 3.5, you'd just end up having to modify anything that was too old. If you stick with 3rd edition, you'll have to modify anything that's too new. Either way, there'll be work involved: so I'd say: stick with the system you already know, and convert from the one you don't. (Same argument works the other way, if you had bought the 3.5 books first and were working with original 3rd edition stuff.) 3.5 has "improved or fixed" some things. I concede that. Unfortunately, I've also seen cases where it... shall I say unimproved, or unfixed, things? I'm trying to be helpful to you, Mastroyo, rather than getting people started: so I'll just say that in my opinion (not a statement of fact) certain changes were made to the "new edition" just so that it would be different enough to encourage folks to buy it. Nothing morally wrong with that: it's how marketing works: but I feel that the game itself would have been improved if they had only made necessary changes (such as that which was made to hold person) and contented themselves with sales of a "third printing" of the core books.
Nom 02-11-05, 07:55 AM	so I'll just say that in my opinion (not a statement of fact) certain changes were made to the "new edition" just so that it would be different enough to encourage folks to buy it. Nothing morally wrong with that: it's how marketing works: but I feel that the game itself would have been improved if they had only made necessary changes (such as that which was made to hold person) and contented themselves with sales of a "third printing" of the core books.I think you're being somewhat unfair here. Was 3.5 released earlier than it perhaps should have been, with more sweeping changes than would be usual for a mere "revision", for marketing reasons? Almost certainly. However, that's quite a ways from saying that changes were made to the ruleset primarily for the purpose of increasing the difference between the two editions, which it sounds like you are claiming. Everything I have seen suggests that the thought process was "hey, I think it would be better if ..."; "OK, well they reckon we should publish a revision soon, so let's change it". But I've seen nothing that suggests that people went looking for change for change's sake, and I think you're being uncharitable to suggest it. It's certainly true that 3.5 made some important fixes to the 3.0 ruleset. It's quite likely that during this process they made some mistakes, or that some rules were changed that some people would have preferred unchanged (weapons sizes and DR are common points of discussion). But it's not really fair to claim that they made these changes in order to have a new edition. A fairer claim was that because of the incentive to release a new edition, they made too much change too soon. In terms of a choice between editions, my personal feelings are that 3.5 is generally a better ruleset. If you're in a situation where it's equal effort to use 3.5 or 3.0, I'd commend 3.5. However, 3.5 is not sufficiently superior that it's worth upgrading purely for the sake of upgrading, and it's quite possible to retrofit 3.5 changes to 3.0 if you're careful about it.
astute1 02-11-05, 10:30 AM	Everything I have seen suggests that the thought process was "hey, I think it would be better if ..."; "OK, well they reckon we should publish a revision soon, so let's change it". But I've seen nothing that suggests that people went looking for change for change's sake, and I think you're being uncharitable to suggest it. Agreed. As far as I've seen, the thought process was, "Boy, we've had a lot of complaints about the way this works..." or "People are houseruling this one all over the place..." The 3.5 books are nice. I like the ruleset quite a bit. When I heard they were going to be released, I was very skeptical, but it really only took hearing a few of the changes to make me decide to buy them. Would I pay $100 a book for them? No. I payed less than that for all three. Considering you can get all the important information of the SRD for free, I would consider not buying the books, especially if you don't have much cash, or live in a part of the world where the prices are higher.
Natalis 02-11-05, 11:26 AM	Well, you've missed one thing. I'm so far away you wouldn't believe, so, considering there are like 5 bookstores that sell those books, and they charge whatever they like... And a buy through ebay or amazon is not likely to do wonders in prize, 'couse import taxes and shipping prizes are not low. Consider I live in Chile, the last country in the map if you look it up. 100$ could be too much, I know. But the FRCS costs that. The PHB and DMG are at least $60. This is why I have just recently started playing 3rd edition. :P PS: You're lucky. You live in cental Europe. Wow...that�s outrages...but are you sure? I took a little peek at amazon.com and found that you can buy the Dungeons and Dragons Roleplaying Game: Core Rulebooks (Dungeons & Dragons(r) Gift Set) for about $60...that would mean all 3 core books for the price of one over there in chile....ofcourse I dont know what your country�s import taxes are....but it would have to be a lot....but like everybody said, you can use the 3.5 SRD just as well.