3.5 Bards & Sorcerers [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 Bards & Sorcerers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fixxxer
10-16-03, 03:08 PM So, in 3.5 bards and sorcerers can (at 5th level and every two levels thereafter) choose to drop a known spell and replace it for another spell of the same level.

Why? I understand the balance issue of keeping a sorcerer's spells up to par (even if I don't totally agree with it), but can someone give me a good explination for exactly what happens to the PC when this occurs? He suddenly forgets a spell that he's been casting daily for three years and picks up a new one in its place. Gimmie the how and why.

As a side note, my 3.0 games included this feat, to great effect:

SPELL EVOLUTION [Special]
You can use your knowledge of some spells to master more powerful versions of those spells.

Prerequisite: The ability to spontaneously cast magic.

Benefit: Any time you gain spell slot in which you could learn a better version of a spell you already know, you may elect to apply this feat. This transforms the spell you currently know into the higher-level form, freeing up the slot occupied by the lower-level form. For example, upon reaching 4th level, a sorcerer could evolve silent image into minor image. Minor image would then occupy a 2nd-level slot, but the 1st-level slot formerly occupied by silent image would become available for the sorcerer to fill with another spell.

Special: All spell evolutions are subject to DM approval, though many should be obvious (Burning Hands can evolve into Fireball, for instance).
spasheridan
10-16-03, 03:28 PM IMO they did this as a hack to fix the puny number of spells these casters know. As it stood in 3.0 you had a choice between effective NOW spells and effective LATER spells. Some spells are good at all levels so they were almost no brainers. Now you can take good low level spells and then swap em for decent higher level spells.. say drop sleep for charm person.

If sorcerers and bards could learn a few more spells a level then you wouldn't need to let them retrain. I think that Sorcerers should learn 2 spells when they learn a new level of spells.. say 2 2nds at 4th, 2 3rds at 6th.. and then not cap out the number spells at 6 per level.

BUT, your question was why do the forget spells to learn new ones.. that it doesn't make sense. Hrm... nope, it seems like a silly hack to me. Can't think of a reason why it should work.
xect
10-16-03, 04:35 PM Originally posted by Fixxxer
Why? I understand the balance issue of keeping a sorcerer's spells up to par (even if I don't totally agree with it), but can someone give me a good explination for exactly what happens to the PC when this occurs? He suddenly forgets a spell that he's been casting daily for three years and picks up a new one in its place.
Well, that'd be by the rules, true, but very poor roleplaying. I doubt a sorcerer would use one he's been casting regularly. Rather, he would switch one he hasnt cast for years in favor of one he supposedly studied since then.
GoblinBiter
10-16-03, 11:48 PM bear with me.

so, for these two caster-types, the magic comes from within. their soul or life-force or pancreas or whatever has the ability to manifest magic which the caster can then manipulate and evoke. so as far as the rule is concerned, it is really an evolution of the soul; as the person changes/evolves/gains levels their desires/fears/dreams would also change. such changes could be said to change one's life-force; a changed life-force means changed spells.

i know it's a stretch.

for RP, i think the rule is terrible, but mechanically, it makes them more viable as character options.

anyhow, you asked for justification for the rule, so i thought i'd throw this out there just as some option, instead of just critiquing the rule anymore than it already has been.
Yankee
10-17-03, 01:32 AM I think it was a rule put in with balance in mind more than story. If it bugs you that your PCs do it, let them them only swap spells out for better ones. What I mean is, if they want to ditch sleep because its getting useless, only let them do so when they learn to cast greater sleep (or improved, or whatever its called). The same can go for summon monster spells, or anything that has lesser to greater progression.
This way, the power they had has grown in strength, and they picked up a new minor power.
xect
10-17-03, 05:54 AM Originally posted by GoblinBiter
i know it's a stretch.
Not that bad actually. Makes sense that if a sorcerer doesnt use a certain spell for a long time, he'd forget it. And it also makes sense that he'd be able to learn a new spell now that he doesnt use the old one any more. His "learning" of spells just comes from his ability to control his inner powers.
Rabe
10-17-03, 08:18 AM It was put in to offer a chance to those classes to make use of low level spells and swap them out later for still useful spells. The other thing for which it is in is the problem that a player (mostly new ones) might choose a spell which turns out to be useless after all. Due to the limited spell knowledge this would hurt a lot, but now he can alleviate the problem (an example why a spell turns out useless might be how the DM handles it).

So its a game mechanic to allow some leeway and fun for the sorcerer tapes.

If you want to rationalize it you might say, that he forgot to use the monster summoning 1 spell over the years he hasnt used it anymore, and replaced it with the identify spell he was toying with.

Rabe
Merbeast
10-18-03, 06:24 PM So, in 3.5 bards and sorcerers can (at 5th level and every two levels thereafter) choose to drop a known spell and replace it for another spell of the same level.

Why? I understand the balance issue of keeping a sorcerer's spells up to par (even if I don't totally agree with it), but can someone give me a good explination for exactly what happens to the PC when this occurs? He suddenly forgets a spell that he's been casting daily for three years and picks up a new one in its place. Gimmie the how and why.

Unfortunatly, you are asking for a logical reason to an illogical problem caused by an illogical situation.

Let's face it: if a Sorcerer doesn't "learn" spells like a wizard does, but just kinda manifests them, why is he limited so such a small number of spells? If he were able to alter his spells and come up with new ones on a whim, he'd be WAAAAAY to powerful... so WOTC limited them. No big deal... but then someone decided that sorcs and bards were getting shafted later on by being saddled with less useful spells. So the fix was a semi logical solution. Err, or so I think.

On a side note, I liked your feat, Fixxer, and think it does add a little rationality to the mix. Perhaps another solution would be to allow the sorc (or bard) to simply ADD a spell of a level he can already cast to his list of spells known instead of replacing. Sure, it would add a little more power, but you'd have more continuity.
Fixxxer
10-18-03, 09:13 PM Originally posted by Merbeast
Perhaps another solution would be to allow the sorc (or bard) to simply ADD a spell of a level he can already cast to his list of spells known instead of replacing. Sure, it would add a little more power, but you'd have more continuity.

That's easily done with the "Extra Spell" and "Extra Slot" feats from Tome and Blood.
Edymnion
10-18-03, 11:50 PM Way I see the spell swapping is exactly the kind of spell evolution you did Fixxxer. You only get to trade out one spell, so you could very easily have evolving magic with it. Take Summon Monster II, then swap it out for Summon Monster III, then for Summon Monster IV, etc all the way up. You're not losing the Summon Monster III spell and gaining a new one, you're just ramping up the power of your old one.

Or, you can see it as a more "fuzzy" evolution.
Take Melf's Acid Arrow and say you learned it as an electric spell, so you got Melf's Electric Arrow. Later on, you learn Lightning Bolt. Later still, you realize MEA isn't cutting it anymore and ditch it for something else. You can easily explain that as Lightning Bolt being the evolved form of the spell, but you still revert to casting the old version once in a while, until you finally move beyond it entirely.

Personally, I find the 3.5 version to be much more balanced and logical than the 3.0 sorcerer. No other class had a requirement of planning out all 20 levels at character creation to keep them viable. You go add-hoc with the sorcerer in 3.0 and the character is gimped at the drop of a hat.

Although, I will admit the 3.0 sorcerer made sense when you thought about it. You learned how to cast a spell, and it was like skill ranks, they never went away. And it "encouraged" you to think ahead. You still have to do that with the 3.5, but it at least gives you a little breathing room.
Nephet
10-19-03, 12:04 AM It's a meta-game solution to maintain a need for preceived game balance. To explain it: just go with the standard response - "a wizard did it".
Dryder
10-19-03, 05:03 PM Maybe it's just because of the sorcerers chaotic nature...
There brains will kind of "change" from time to time, and not even the sorcerer him/herself knows why this works/happens!

But the bard - That beat's me, too...

btw. Hi Fixxxer, I'm back online!:D
Fixxxer
10-19-03, 05:20 PM Originally posted by Dryder
btw. Hi Fixxxer, I'm back online!:D

Woot!

Way I see the spell swapping is exactly the kind of spell evolution you did Fixxxer. You only get to trade out one spell, so you could very easily have evolving magic with it.

That's how I'd hoped it worked when I first heard about the 3.5 change. Unfortuantely, there's a stipulation that you can only change out the old spell for a spell of the same level. Hmm.....actually, I think I see the point you were going for.

*processing*

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fixxxer 10-16-03, 03:08 PM	So, in 3.5 bards and sorcerers can (at 5th level and every two levels thereafter) choose to drop a known spell and replace it for another spell of the same level. Why? I understand the balance issue of keeping a sorcerer's spells up to par (even if I don't totally agree with it), but can someone give me a good explination for exactly what happens to the PC when this occurs? He suddenly forgets a spell that he's been casting daily for three years and picks up a new one in its place. Gimmie the how and why. As a side note, my 3.0 games included this feat, to great effect: SPELL EVOLUTION [Special] You can use your knowledge of some spells to master more powerful versions of those spells. Prerequisite: The ability to spontaneously cast magic. Benefit: Any time you gain spell slot in which you could learn a better version of a spell you already know, you may elect to apply this feat. This transforms the spell you currently know into the higher-level form, freeing up the slot occupied by the lower-level form. For example, upon reaching 4th level, a sorcerer could evolve silent image into minor image. Minor image would then occupy a 2nd-level slot, but the 1st-level slot formerly occupied by silent image would become available for the sorcerer to fill with another spell. Special: All spell evolutions are subject to DM approval, though many should be obvious (Burning Hands can evolve into Fireball, for instance).
spasheridan 10-16-03, 03:28 PM	IMO they did this as a hack to fix the puny number of spells these casters know. As it stood in 3.0 you had a choice between effective NOW spells and effective LATER spells. Some spells are good at all levels so they were almost no brainers. Now you can take good low level spells and then swap em for decent higher level spells.. say drop sleep for charm person. If sorcerers and bards could learn a few more spells a level then you wouldn't need to let them retrain. I think that Sorcerers should learn 2 spells when they learn a new level of spells.. say 2 2nds at 4th, 2 3rds at 6th.. and then not cap out the number spells at 6 per level. BUT, your question was why do the forget spells to learn new ones.. that it doesn't make sense. Hrm... nope, it seems like a silly hack to me. Can't think of a reason why it should work.
xect 10-16-03, 04:35 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Why? I understand the balance issue of keeping a sorcerer's spells up to par (even if I don't totally agree with it), but can someone give me a good explination for exactly what happens to the PC when this occurs? He suddenly forgets a spell that he's been casting daily for three years and picks up a new one in its place. Well, that'd be by the rules, true, but very poor roleplaying. I doubt a sorcerer would use one he's been casting regularly. Rather, he would switch one he hasnt cast for years in favor of one he supposedly studied since then.
GoblinBiter 10-16-03, 11:48 PM	bear with me. so, for these two caster-types, the magic comes from within. their soul or life-force or pancreas or whatever has the ability to manifest magic which the caster can then manipulate and evoke. so as far as the rule is concerned, it is really an evolution of the soul; as the person changes/evolves/gains levels their desires/fears/dreams would also change. such changes could be said to change one's life-force; a changed life-force means changed spells. i know it's a stretch. for RP, i think the rule is terrible, but mechanically, it makes them more viable as character options. anyhow, you asked for justification for the rule, so i thought i'd throw this out there just as some option, instead of just critiquing the rule anymore than it already has been.
Yankee 10-17-03, 01:32 AM	I think it was a rule put in with balance in mind more than story. If it bugs you that your PCs do it, let them them only swap spells out for better ones. What I mean is, if they want to ditch sleep because its getting useless, only let them do so when they learn to cast greater sleep (or improved, or whatever its called). The same can go for summon monster spells, or anything that has lesser to greater progression. This way, the power they had has grown in strength, and they picked up a new minor power.
xect 10-17-03, 05:54 AM	Originally posted by GoblinBiter i know it's a stretch. Not that bad actually. Makes sense that if a sorcerer doesnt use a certain spell for a long time, he'd forget it. And it also makes sense that he'd be able to learn a new spell now that he doesnt use the old one any more. His "learning" of spells just comes from his ability to control his inner powers.
Rabe 10-17-03, 08:18 AM	It was put in to offer a chance to those classes to make use of low level spells and swap them out later for still useful spells. The other thing for which it is in is the problem that a player (mostly new ones) might choose a spell which turns out to be useless after all. Due to the limited spell knowledge this would hurt a lot, but now he can alleviate the problem (an example why a spell turns out useless might be how the DM handles it). So its a game mechanic to allow some leeway and fun for the sorcerer tapes. If you want to rationalize it you might say, that he forgot to use the monster summoning 1 spell over the years he hasnt used it anymore, and replaced it with the identify spell he was toying with. Rabe
Merbeast 10-18-03, 06:24 PM	So, in 3.5 bards and sorcerers can (at 5th level and every two levels thereafter) choose to drop a known spell and replace it for another spell of the same level. Why? I understand the balance issue of keeping a sorcerer's spells up to par (even if I don't totally agree with it), but can someone give me a good explination for exactly what happens to the PC when this occurs? He suddenly forgets a spell that he's been casting daily for three years and picks up a new one in its place. Gimmie the how and why. Unfortunatly, you are asking for a logical reason to an illogical problem caused by an illogical situation. Let's face it: if a Sorcerer doesn't "learn" spells like a wizard does, but just kinda manifests them, why is he limited so such a small number of spells? If he were able to alter his spells and come up with new ones on a whim, he'd be WAAAAAY to powerful... so WOTC limited them. No big deal... but then someone decided that sorcs and bards were getting shafted later on by being saddled with less useful spells. So the fix was a semi logical solution. Err, or so I think. On a side note, I liked your feat, Fixxer, and think it does add a little rationality to the mix. Perhaps another solution would be to allow the sorc (or bard) to simply ADD a spell of a level he can already cast to his list of spells known instead of replacing. Sure, it would add a little more power, but you'd have more continuity.
Fixxxer 10-18-03, 09:13 PM	Originally posted by Merbeast Perhaps another solution would be to allow the sorc (or bard) to simply ADD a spell of a level he can already cast to his list of spells known instead of replacing. Sure, it would add a little more power, but you'd have more continuity. That's easily done with the "Extra Spell" and "Extra Slot" feats from Tome and Blood.
Edymnion 10-18-03, 11:50 PM	Way I see the spell swapping is exactly the kind of spell evolution you did Fixxxer. You only get to trade out one spell, so you could very easily have evolving magic with it. Take Summon Monster II, then swap it out for Summon Monster III, then for Summon Monster IV, etc all the way up. You're not losing the Summon Monster III spell and gaining a new one, you're just ramping up the power of your old one. Or, you can see it as a more "fuzzy" evolution. Take Melf's Acid Arrow and say you learned it as an electric spell, so you got Melf's Electric Arrow. Later on, you learn Lightning Bolt. Later still, you realize MEA isn't cutting it anymore and ditch it for something else. You can easily explain that as Lightning Bolt being the evolved form of the spell, but you still revert to casting the old version once in a while, until you finally move beyond it entirely. Personally, I find the 3.5 version to be much more balanced and logical than the 3.0 sorcerer. No other class had a requirement of planning out all 20 levels at character creation to keep them viable. You go add-hoc with the sorcerer in 3.0 and the character is gimped at the drop of a hat. Although, I will admit the 3.0 sorcerer made sense when you thought about it. You learned how to cast a spell, and it was like skill ranks, they never went away. And it "encouraged" you to think ahead. You still have to do that with the 3.5, but it at least gives you a little breathing room.
Nephet 10-19-03, 12:04 AM	It's a meta-game solution to maintain a need for preceived game balance. To explain it: just go with the standard response - "a wizard did it".
Dryder 10-19-03, 05:03 PM	Maybe it's just because of the sorcerers chaotic nature... There brains will kind of "change" from time to time, and not even the sorcerer him/herself knows why this works/happens! But the bard - That beat's me, too... btw. Hi Fixxxer, I'm back online!:D
Fixxxer 10-19-03, 05:20 PM	Originally posted by Dryder btw. Hi Fixxxer, I'm back online!:D Woot! Way I see the spell swapping is exactly the kind of spell evolution you did Fixxxer. You only get to trade out one spell, so you could very easily have evolving magic with it. That's how I'd hoped it worked when I first heard about the 3.5 change. Unfortuantely, there's a stipulation that you can only change out the old spell for a spell of the same level. Hmm.....actually, I think I see the point you were going for. processing