Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maladaar 04-09-04, 02:58 AM	Here is the scoop: I run a campaign that (at times) will have up to 7 players at the table (most of the time it is 5 to 6). Some of my players use the time between their actions to think of what their PC will do on their next action, while other PCs literally wait until their action to decide what their PC will do. Here is the problem, the players that do not think about what they will do ahead of time end up taking anywhere from 3 to 5 minutes to decide what to do (which upsets the players that think out their actions). I understand that depending what happens a player may decide to change his course of action (maybe because a minion has fallen and now he can attack the BBEG). I think that each player should be able to think of 2 or 3 things he might do (depending upon the circumstances when it is his action). Thus I am thinking about implementing either a 30 or 60 second sand timer (to help speed things up). With 7 players that would give each player either 3.5 or 7 minutes to decide a couple of course of action. The sand timer was actually something someone introduced me to back in the 80s when he felt some players took too long (funny thing is that same guy and two new players are the culprits). I want to make it that if the sand runs out before the player declares his action that effectively his PC froze and didn't know what to do. I was wondering if anyone else has tried implementing this before?
Fixxxer 04-09-04, 03:05 AM	I haven't tried an actual sand timer (I don't feel like spending the money on a board game just to get the hourglass), but I do use a timer method. Basically, I give you 10 seconds when it's announced that it's your turn. After 10 seconds is up, I begin counting down from 6 to 1 (six seconds to a turn). If I get to 3, you've lost your move-equivilant action for the turn. If I get to 0, you've lost your turn (you simply froze up with indecision). Of course, I make situational allowances. If you're new to the game or it's your first time playing a spellcaster and you're still looking through your spells or you have a question about something, then the clock naturally stops.
Maladaar 04-09-04, 03:11 AM	Granted new players or smaller groups can be given a little more leeway. The one guy I am talking about has been playing since 1982 and he is running a straight rogue. 2 guys are newbies, but I don't mind teaching them. The other four guys have been playing for at least 10 years. I do like the 6 second count down and the losing of the move than the standard action that you have implement.
MinusInnocence 04-09-04, 04:44 AM	Fixxxer and I are vicious taskmasters who support the introduction of a fascist police state. I think time restrictions should be implemented in all things, such as when you go to the supermarket. People take too long deciding what they want, if they were afraid their children might be dragged out into the street and shot because they didn't make it home from the post office on time, the world would be a better place. Of course, I jest. I don't have anything as formal as Fixx's system, but I do have similar tastes. If people are taking too long I simply rule that their character choked up and lost his round... it happens sometimes, even in real life. Maybe something reminded the character of a troubling event in his past, or perhaps he simply had too many options and the villain took advantage of the opening he saw. Now, you understand that it takes longer for players in D&D to decide upon things than their characters would reasonably have to take in the same situation. This is because players have fewer cues to act on - they rely solely on your description of how events play out before them, whereas their characters can note the combat stance of their opponent, may even have a vague idea of how much fight the guy has left in him (with a successful Heal check, for example), and even who the bad guys are glancing at as they decide their next action. So, if you're thinking about instituting a policy like this, you have to go to great lengths to insure the group has all the information they need.
Maladaar 04-09-04, 05:20 AM	Actually we use a 3 x 5 battle map with 1" squares, draw out the entire area (as best as the PCs can see), and use minis for placement of allies and foes. Outside of how much damage someone has taken everything is always laid out during a combat situation, which is what really frustrates some of the players that plan their actions ahead of time. One player (the rogue) with 20 years experience took about five minutes to figure out what to do, while another player (a paladin) had taken about seconds to do a double move through combat and avoided all chances of AoO (through planning his PC's movement). I think I will definitely institute something, which will include the 6 second countdown.
MinusInnocence 04-09-04, 05:27 AM	I sympathize with you. I had a player once who would insist on saying, "Huh? What? Oh, my turn - uhh, I hold my action" even though I repeatedly told him when you announce that, you have to pick an Initiative count. Eventually, I interpreted him saying "I hold my action" as "I forfeit my turn because I wasn't paying attention". However, and though I hesitate to say this, the player with 20+ years of gaming experience is really no better off than anyone else in the game. Never before has D&D, or any RPG for that matter, been such a blend between wargame/skirmish and RP. Battles in 3.5 really do play out like chess matches, though with an exponentionally greater number of choices provided. In fact, this change was so radical from the "Miniatures are a nice prop, but far from mandatory" feel of 2E that his decades as a gamer may actually be a detriment rather than a boon. That being said, I completely feel for you. Some people are just more hesitant than others; conviction is learned, not inherent. What you can do is work with the "problem player" - in this situation, the one rife with indecision when it comes to battles - outside of the game, schooling him on some of the various rules in the game. You may even consider scheduling a one hour session of "D&D 101" once a week, for anyone interested. You can cover various topics that seem to pose problems for people in the group, along with offering some hints and tricks for character optimization.
Maladaar 04-09-04, 05:43 AM	I have been playing with the battle map for about 10 years now (during 2e through 3.5e), unfortunately he has been out of circulation for about 7 years, but the funny thing is that he has not changed his style of play at all. We once sat for about 15 minutes while he tried to figure out how everyone should enter a room so they would all stay within the area of his prayer spell (obviously he was playing a cleric). Finally some of the players said, "The heck with it! I kick the door open and charge in!" I understand that he is trying to figure out what would best serve the group, but sometimes situations can be overanalyzed. Add in the fact that he has spent the better part of the last decade playing a lot of computer games, which allow saves before entering battle so if you mess up, no big deal, "I will just load the game right before I entered the room."
Pumpoei 04-09-04, 10:44 AM	Here is the problem, the players that do not think about what they will do ahead of time end up taking anywhere from 3 to 5 minutes to decide what to do (which upsets the players that think out their actions). Oh do I hate this. People who do this are right up there with the folks that can't add/read dice. It's intolerable when you combine the two. DM: *after 10 minutes* So what are you gonna do? *sighs* Player: O.K, I'll just swing my sword. Where are my dice? *looks around under the table* Which one is it again? The 12 sided? *rolls a D6* What is it again to figure out if you hit? I gamed with a guy who was like this. He'd been playing DnD since before I was in kindergarten, and he still hadn't learned to count, add, differentiate die types, roll, or virtually anything else. I sometimes wondered how he could operate a car or keep a job. Yeah, I'm ranting. But you have my sympathies. I say the egg timer thing is wonderful idea. Thirty seconds it too long however. Fixxxer has it right at ten I reckon.
Fixxxer 04-09-04, 12:56 PM	Originally posted by MinusInnocence Fixxxer and I are vicious taskmasters who support the introduction of a fascist police state. I think time restrictions should be implemented in all things, such as when you go to the supermarket. People take too long deciding what they want, if they were afraid their children might be dragged out into the street and shot because they didn't make it home from the post office on time, the world would be a better place. Ja sollen sie die Hölle auf beeilen sich! Alle begrüßen facism! ;) (My German is so bad...)
Winternova 04-09-04, 01:10 PM	I know my players react poorly when given a time limit, even if it is as lenient as a minute. They'll get pouty and act without thinking, as if their options were 'attack' or 'not attack'. Whatever then occurs in that combat becomes 'my fault' as I 'made them attack'. I think the answer to this dilemma is preparing the player so they know their options as opposed to punishing their indecisiveness.
Lord Crimson 04-09-04, 11:43 PM	Yeah, but if you've let them know ahead of time and they still "whine" and "blame you" then they're just crappy players. Honestly, unless they've never played the game beofre and are still getting used to the system there is NO justifiable reason as to why they can't at least decide on a combat action in 30 seconds or a minute. Hell, a minute even gives them a chance to check rules by going through the index. Yeah, I'm never big on people who take too much time to decide. If it goes more than a minute or two most of my group thankfully starts to yell at them.
Fixxxer 04-09-04, 11:58 PM	Originally posted by Winternova I know my players react poorly when given a time limit, even if it is as lenient as a minute. They'll get pouty and act without thinking, as if their options were 'attack' or 'not attack'. Whatever then occurs in that combat becomes 'my fault' as I 'made them attack'. Well, no offense intended towards you or anything, but your players sound like insecure babies who don't want to feel like they should take responsability for their PC's actions simply because they didn't have time to "pause the game" and figure out the absolute best mechanical answer to every situation.
Shima 04-10-04, 06:55 AM	I also use a time limit, but I only wait 5 sec befor counting down. My players play fast and got into the exitment it provides not because of the counting down but because an action scene shouldnt be dull and slow. I'm sure they even forgot I was doing it because I didnt have to press the count down in a long time. Its alot more fun that way: it keeps players on the edge, the action running and it fuels the game to move on. Most important, is that it makes them make mistakes, wich is all natural under pressure. Thats what provides the exictement and genuine reactions.
Maladaar 04-10-04, 07:07 AM	I have already spoken with 4 out of the 7 players and they are all for (believe it or not) a 15 second timer. I originally was thinking the fastest I should make it is 30 seconds, but they want the 15 second timer. We informally started playing this way last night. Most of my players are in their mid-20s or older (so no cry-babies here). Two are 14 and 16 (they only play because their fathers are present). The 14 year-old (who is a newbie) was here last night and said it was ok with him (trial by fire). Our combat definitely when a lot quicker. Any player that whines that it is the DM's fault that his indecisiveness or bad decision making is the DM's is nothing but a crybaby. I feel bad decisions made during the "heat of the moment" adds some amount of realism. Granted if we need to look up the rule on something such as (bull-rush) the player won't lose his turn as he has already stated "I want to bull-rush." That way, obscure rules (not saying bull-rush is, I just used it as a quick example...remember I have some newbies) can still be looked up by one or two players (yes we have 4 PHBs at the table) to help speed things up.
TieraStarr 04-10-04, 10:19 AM	Rather than flat-out making someone lose their action, I've made it an auto-delay in the past. Once the allotted time has passed (sometimes we used an egg-timer from boggle - I think that is three minutes, other times it was more informal and just an "okay that's long enough"), then the character is automatically considered to be delaying. Initiatives count down at one second intervals, pausing for other character's and NPC's actions as necessary. They delayed character could announce an action at any time, but it would be occur one initiative place after he announced it. He also cannot interrupt someone else, other than to say "I'm ready now", then we will get back to him after the current person is finished. MinusInnocence: (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3091360#post3091360) I had a player once who would insist on saying, "Huh? What? Oh, my turn - uhh, I hold my action" even though I repeatedly told him when you announce that, you have to pick an Initiative count. SRD 3½: (http://geocities.com/sovelior/srd/initiativeActions.html) You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point. When delaying you are not forced to specify the new initiative at the time of the delay, but can wait until something prompts you to act.
Winternova 04-10-04, 01:38 PM	Originally posted by Fixxxer Well, no offense intended towards you or anything, but your players sound like insecure babies who don't want to feel like they should take responsability for their PC's actions simply because they didn't have time to "pause the game" and figure out the absolute best mechanical answer to every situation. No offense taken, you pretty much nailed it. It's not a constant problem, thankfully, and I'm gonna suggest that they get to know their characters options and fighting styles better so as to avoid this in the future.
lotterybucks 04-14-04, 06:23 PM	however, you should consider that "I fire 3 flaming arrows at the drow wizard who just got burnt by *his* fireball" takes longer than pulling 3 arrows and shooting at the guy you want.
was_fired 04-14-04, 07:13 PM	I am curious how you handle a higher level characters attacks in 10 seconds. While I can normally get then to declare their actions that quickly (group of 2 so time is not a huge problem) they are slow when it comes to rolling (graphing calculator).
jafyfe 04-14-04, 08:22 PM	Originally posted by MinusInnocence I think time restrictions should be implemented in all things, such as when you go to the supermarket. People take too long deciding what they want... Man I wish I could time my wife. Most recently we get off the freeway cause she has to go to the bathroom and pick up milk before we get home. So i am sitting outside with the dog in the car reading, i look up, 20 minutes have past...hoping she was okay i get out of the car, crack the windows for the dog, walk to the store to see my wife running around the store to pick up something that was on sale, while the checker was adding her items up. A tenty minute potty break and a cart full of stuff. I said, "i thought you had to go to the bathroom?" i get some story about how everything was on sale. Moral of the story: egg timers for everyone.
Fixxxer 04-15-04, 06:36 PM	Originally posted by was_fired I am curious how you handle a higher level characters attacks in 10 seconds. While I can normally get then to declare their actions that quickly (group of 2 so time is not a huge problem) they are slow when it comes to rolling (graphing calculator). I don't require them to be finished within 10 seconds. I simply want them to get started with things within a certain amount of time. Basically, the countdown I mentioned above is there to deal with the player who only decides to look at his spell list when I tell him it's his turn, instead of during the time he had during everyone else's turn (as an example).
AncientHugeRedFacedDM 04-15-04, 09:23 PM	Hello, I have also run groups of 8+ and find the sand timer to be invaluable. I use the 30 second timer. They don't have to finish their turn in 30 seconds, but they do have to STATE WHAT THEY ARE DOING in 30 seconds. Most players who are paying attention can do this in about 5 seconds, "I step up and hit the troll with my sword". Sometimes the action of the player immediately before the current player can force a change of plans but 30 seconds is generous. I have been on the player side of the time and even when playing a sorcerer most of my turns were DONE in less than 30 seconds. Its just not that hard most of the time. If the timer runs out before they state their action, I skip them that turn. I have only skipped someone about three times in the last two years and never the same person twice. Sand timers work great when someone tries to modify their turn into a Calculus proof. Good luck, Hal
Maladaar 04-16-04, 12:59 AM	I agree the point of the x-second timer is not that the player have all of his actions finished by the end of the timer, just state what he/she is planning on doing. Bull-rush the draconian. Power-attack the hobgoblin. Cast cure on my fallen ally. Once he/she states the action, I would not end their turn until all of their actions are finished. Since I can't seem to find a 15-second timer, I may go with a 30-second timer. If anyone knows where I can find a timer, please post where it can be found. I want something that can be passed around or at least I can easily use behind the screen.
Revelation 04-16-04, 06:49 AM	I also give a limited time to the players, and start a five second count down if they are dithering. If they don't state what they are doing they delay. If they later interrupt and tell me EXACTLY what they are doing that's their new initiative. I don't have a time limit for an honest query or clarification about the battle. If players have a load of dice to throw I expect them to have them to hand ready to throw. Or in some cases have thrown them in advance. I sometimes play a rogue with Greater TWF, I roll all my backstab damage in advance else I'd roll 48 dice for a full round attack. This way i work down the list and save time.
Utumno 04-16-04, 01:06 PM	Fixxxer and I are vicious taskmasters who support the introduction of a fascist police state. I think time restrictions should be implemented in all things, such as when you go to the supermarket. People take too long deciding what they want, if they were afraid their children might be dragged out into the street and shot because they didn't make it home from the post office on time, the world would be a better place. I think you might be interested in my idea for a new federal bureau the BIR- Bureau of Idiot Removal. It would essentially get rid of people who talk on phones in resturants, put makeup on at stoplights, and generally make living diffucult for the rest of us.
Capt. Pixel 04-16-04, 09:45 PM	We used the egg-timer for a while while everyone got a sense of how to move the game along at a better pace. Once everybody started to figure out that we had more fun when people made decisions (right OR wrong!) in an expedient manner, they managed the Time issue on there own. Now we have a new player (also with long experience). He's tackling a 10th level 3.0 wizard. Such dithering I've never seen! DM: "What's your Mage doing, Greg?" (Player's real name - after all he IS guilty. :rolleyes: ) Greg: "well - uhm," picks up PHB and starts randomly flipping pages, back and forth, in the PHB. DM: "Are you going to cast a spell?" Greg: "yeah, it's.... just a minute." Diddles with his paperwork for a moment. Looking in another direction at the time. Picks up a Splat book and starts rifling through it. (It's, of course, reference for an unrelated character class.) DM: "Greg, that's a Cleric reference. Your Mage can't cast any spells from that book." Greg: :blank stare: "I feel pretty!......." (I kid you not! He does this ALL the time. Aaargh!)) DM: "Well... what spell are you going to cast?" :sigh: It's like reeling in a fish with a hook in its mouth. Greg: "I can hold my action, right?" DM: "Please do. For the next 15 rounds should do nicely." :mad: Greg won't benefit from an egg timer, but I'm thinking a 16 oz hammer might do the trick. :smirk: :cool:
Maladaar 04-18-04, 02:39 AM	If the 16 oz. hammer doesn't do the trick, you could always try a 20 oz. Oh Heck! Just get a 5 or 10 pound sledgehammer out! :D
MattMart 04-18-04, 08:57 AM	the problem with a sand timer is that sometimes you are dealing with characters who are smarter than the most brilliant man of all time...the amount of thought they can put into 1 second is so much different than the average joe schmo.... i just look at the clock... you get 30 seconds + 10 seconds for every int mod....-10 for every negative int mod(minimum 10 sec)...so an int 20 guy has 80 seconds....an int 4 guy has 10 seconds... for every 3 ranks in know(tactics) you gain an additional +10 seconds...
Bulabase 04-18-04, 11:43 PM	In my experience, game delay problems stem from either poor knowledge of the rules or indecisiveness. If a player doesn't know the rules regarding his or her character's abilities, the DM needs to encourage the player to learn their character better. If the player does not do so, assume that they forfiet their action or loose their special ability. For example, a player of a monk wanting to use stunning fist not knowing the DC simply doesn't get to use the ability that round or (even more deviously) the target gets a circumstance bonus to their save equal to the DM's level of annoyance. On the flip side, indecicive players often know their characters and the rules very well. They seek to get the most out of their abilities in any situation. I am not inclined to give such players even as much as 10 seconds to make a choice of action. If they have been paying attention, they have had far more time than the character to come up with a plan. In an action situation, you can't always make the perfect choice. I think a little sub-optimal player action adds to the realism and excitement of the game experience.
Boudewijn Brendergast 04-19-04, 03:45 AM	I was thinking of implementing the time limit in my game as wel.(maybe the players even get to use their AoO every now and then (see other thread)) What I was wondering, as players get a timelimit, shouldn't the DM get a timelimit as well? Probably a bit longer as a DM plays new NPCs/opponents the whole time and more than one on to p of that.
Maladaar 04-20-04, 01:02 AM	The whole point is to SPEED up the game not have to do additional calculations on how long each character gets. Regardless of PC Int modifiers or skill ranks, it is the player that needs to speed things up. As I previously mentioned with 6 to 7 players (let's use 6 as an example), if each player is given 15 seconds (to declare their actions, not complete all their actions), each player has 90 seconds (just from the time used to declare their actions). Factor in that resolving each PCs actions will take at least another 15 seconds, now each player is looking at really having about 3 minutes between their actions and that is only factoring in the PCs. Let's say resolving the actions of 6 foes each takes 30 seconds, now you are looking at a player having 6 minutes between his turns. Obviously the number of foes varies and but even with only one foe that is still 3 and 1/2 minutes. MORE than enough time. I fully agree that players that are not as familiar with the rules, should be encourage to learn them better. In my case, it is a matter of someone that is trying to always come up with the best possible action for his character. This is not a video game that can be paused. Other players have complained that certain individual(s) need to speed it up and I agree. Nothing kills an awesome encounter more than someone dragging their feet on their turn by not being prepared.
MattMart 04-20-04, 08:35 AM	but like i was saying...an Int 20 character with 20 ranks in knowledge(tactics) should have alot more than 15 seconds to work out his gameplan for the round...or at least a boat load more time than the int 5 barbarian with 0 ranks in tactics.... the should at least get a chance to work up the amount of brainpower that would be going into the round...after all...most of us are but 12 int humans at max....
Kaya Kenobi 04-20-04, 08:41 AM	Originally posted by Fixxxer I haven't tried an actual sand timer (I don't feel like spending the money on a board game just to get the hourglass), but I do use a timer method. Basically, I give you 10 seconds when it's announced that it's your turn. After 10 seconds is up, I begin counting down from 6 to 1 (six seconds to a turn). If I get to 3, you've lost your move-equivilant action for the turn. If I get to 0, you've lost your turn (you simply froze up with indecision). Of course, I make situational allowances. If you're new to the game or it's your first time playing a spellcaster and you're still looking through your spells or you have a question about something, then the clock naturally stops. From what I understand, sand timers can be found really cheap... ;)
lparks 04-20-04, 02:41 PM	$7.00 for a 30 second timer isn't bad. They come in 10 and 60 second models as well. http://www.kelvin.com/ac_sandtimer.html
Fixxxer 04-20-04, 03:22 PM	Originally posted by Utumno I think you might be interested in my idea for a new federal bureau the BIR- Bureau of Idiot Removal. It would essentially get rid of people who talk on phones in resturants, put makeup on at stoplights, and generally make living diffucult for the rest of us. Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.