3D Whirlwind Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

3D Whirlwind Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dayglo_Sword
09-16-04, 05:30 AM Cant find anything in the books and cant search forums anymore so any help in the following would be appreceated.

How does Whirlwind Attack operate in 3D? (primarily when flying or against wall climbers).

It seems that its possible to get up to 26 attacks ( 8 around, 9 above, 9 below) which seems excessive (and dice rolling hell).

have i misread something? or how can i power it down? (i was thinking of forbidding 'long' up\down diagonal attacks for this feat, cutting it down to a 'resonable' 18 potential attacks!)

The reason i ask is that i was planning a descent down a narrow pit, with constant attacks on the PCs on the way down. But then realised that the one man army fighter\barbarian would think hes gone to heaven (rather than the hell I intended).

p.s. have Wizards thought about putting a spell checker in the forums - i need it. :mad:
MinusInnocence
09-16-04, 06:27 AM This is an interesting dilemma. Recently while playing in a friend's game, we descended into a hive of giant ants. Having a general dislike of all monstrous vermin, ant or otherwise, I proceeded to chop them to pieces; but they came at us stacked pretty deep, since they could reach us while gripping the walls. The tunnels were designed to optimize their assets and minimize ours, such as being able to hold off a pass and only fight a few of them at a time.

In this situation, if I had Whirlwind seemingly I would be at an advantage: there were certainly more of them in my threatened area at a time than the number of attacks I get per round (a big ol' stinkin' 1, at 5th). Unfortunately, there is a hole in your reasoning.

Whirlwind doesn't create a "dice-rolling hell" because only one attack roll is made. That is the tradeoff: like Manyshot, you sacrifice all of your potential attacks to be able to make one at your highest bonus. Granted, you're most likely to succeed with this single attack so it's not much of a sacrifice at all... but if you DO, then you've just spent a full round action to make the enemies laugh at you.

The irony of the feat, and the danger it poses to those unfamiliar with it, is that you're generally only going to get a lot of mileage out of Whirlwind when flight would be your best option: namely, immediately before or after you are completely surrounded. Provoking AoOs by Bullrushing out of the crowd is probably the smartest thing you can do in this situation, since if you DO miss, you only get a measly 5-foot step. Imagine the frustration of a 20th level fighter at that point... he could have rolled three more dice and may have hit at least ONE person.

This is particularly true of the scenario you're planning. If you're descending down into a pit and people are attacking you from all sides while attacking, Whirlwind probably isn't the best idea. The rest of the party isn't going to be very happy the first time your "one man army" rolls a big ol' miss with his single attack that round, and still fails to descend any further. Not only is he holding up the line, he didn't neutralize the threats and the rest of the party probably doesn't have Whirlwind to count on.

My long-winded point is that Whirlwind is a bit of a gamble. Come to think of it, if there are that many baddies... why don't they just wait until everyone is climbing down then cut the rope?
Naeron
09-16-04, 06:35 AM By the rules, yes its 26 attacks. Whirlwind gives you one attack against each person you threaten.

However it is exceptionally unlikely that you could actually get anywhere near that number attacking a single person climbing down a narrow pit unless everyone is flying. To fit that many opponents you would need an open area 15ft high and 15ft deep and wide as a minimum (and if they are not flying what is everyone standing on).

As these attackers will probably either be flying (in which case they attack from below or from holes in the wall with ranged and reach weapons (its very hard to use a reach weapon when climbing as they need 2 hands so they should find it much easier to stay out of the PC's threatened areas).

It will always be hell for the characters because they will need to be making climbing rolls for every hit they take, lose any dex bonus to AC (which the barbarians uncanny dodge doesn't counter) and can only use a single hand and while doing so cannot move.

Even an uneven surfaced chimney will be DC10 because you can guarantee that the enemy will cut any ropes and may try dumping water down to make it slippery so it becomes DC 15. If its natural rock then those DC's go up by 5.

Edit: You do roll separately for each attack with WA "one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach." one melee attack means 1 attack roll, Manyshot specifically says "Both arrows use the same attack roll".
MinusInnocence
09-16-04, 06:40 AM Hmm... I dunno why I thought you only got to make a single attack roll. Maybe I misinterpreted the rules from 3E. I still have to wonder about the original poster's ideas about 26 potential targets, though... that's a whole lot of people.

I agree with Naeron that regardless of the way the feat works, the odds are against the character in question. In fact, he's probably going to get the rest of the party killed if he tries to use it.
EatFlan
09-16-04, 11:31 AM here is a solution:

If your characters are rappelling down a shaft and since whirwind is like a hack slack globe have him risk cutting his rope. thats a damn long fall if he does.
Board_Rider
09-16-04, 01:34 PM I would say no. I know, I know this game is make belief and all but within tight quarters the Whirlwind Attack feat just isn't possble. There is no feasible way for that PC to attack upwards and around him/herself effectively. Furthermore, remember that while the Barbarian side of this PC may have the Uncanny Dodge benefit he still does not have his Dex bonus to AC since he/she is climbing. Also remember about any armor check penalty. That B/F may not think he is in heaven for long. If the PC is flying I don't think that his fly rating is high enough to levitate and gain all those attacks. Check that. I think that you need a "good" or better maneurverability to levitate.
Sildatorak
09-16-04, 01:50 PM I think that cutting away the "corners" of threat cube is very reasonable if you make it so that those people can't attack him. Remember, if he is doing a WWA, then he will only get attacks on those people that are in position to attack him. Yes it is potent to get 1 attack against 26 people, but it is much worse to be on the receiving end of 26 attacks against 1 person.
Kragg Bonemeal
09-16-04, 01:56 PM I know it is possible, but improbable that you will be that totally surrounded multiple times. Once, maybe twice in your career will you have more than 8 enemies around you. Don't worry about your fighter attempting to purposefully get totally surrounded just to use Whirlwind Attack. If that is his preferred attack method, he'll be rolling up a new character soon anyway.

You are all forgetting being on the Astral Plane. No up/down... only formless grey that you move through with thought power. Very easy to have 3 dimensional combat.
FrostyObsitnic
09-16-04, 02:02 PM If the fighter is climbing down on a rope, he still probably wouldnt have the maneuverability to do a whirlwind anyway. Imagine trying to spin around with enough force to get a decent hit in on 10 different monsters while simultaneously holding onto a rope. It just doesnt seem possible. A good portion of whirlwind is footwork.
Crossover-Chronicler
09-16-04, 02:30 PM How does Whirlwind Attack operate in 3D? (primarily when flying or against wall climbers).As far as I know, if you can reach them they're fair game.It seems that its possible to get up to 26 attacks ( 8 around, 9 above, 9 below) which seems excessive (and dice rolling hell).It's true, that does seem excessive. On the other hand, contriving to have 26 individual opponents swarm a single character seems kins excessive as well.have i misread something? or how can i power it down? (i was thinking of forbidding 'long' up\down diagonal attacks for this feat, cutting it down to a 'resonable' 18 potential attacks!)A "diagona;" strike is a "diagonal" strike - in such a case you would have to (for the sake of consistency) prohibit all attacks along those angles. Except with Reach.The reason i ask is that i was planning a descent down a narrow pit, with constant attacks on the PCs on the way down. But then realised that the one man army fighter\barbarian would think hes gone to heaven (rather than the hell I intended).Well, I certainly wouldn't nerft the feat just because it's suddenly useful in a single narow situation during an upcoming adventure. I'd say, find some way to make the feat less useful in that situation (such as by widening the tunnel and giving the enemy reach or ranged weapons - he can only Whirlwind about half the enemies at a given time, and the rest can keep hitting). Better yet, let the fighter have his moment of glory.
deadDMwalking
09-16-04, 03:13 PM I think the feat does sound unreasonable in that situation. The rules do not specifically prohibit attacking all possible points. However, I am going to assume that they made an assumption about people on the ground using it against other people on the ground.

My houserule (which I'll tell everyone if they are considering this feat) will be that you must choose a plane (like Blade Barrier). The plane can be any direction centered on you. That maans for a medium creature with a non-reach weapon it will be 8 squares. It can be the squares all around them, or it can be 1 high in the front, his level in the center, and 3 low in the back.....

I think that is reasonable and my players will still be happy with it. Generally, I think they will consider the intended point of whirlwind attack to deal with hordes of goblins, or other creatures that try to overwhelm them on the ground.
Polymorph
09-17-04, 12:33 AM So, either the Warrior swings his weapon horizontally with such force, that it actually creates a whirlwind or he utilises his 6 seconds for the round to jump arround like mad, swinging his weapon in every possible direction...

I don't really know which one of these possibilities sounds more redicolous, really :D

I would houserule, that you need to have solid ground beneath your feat and all squares adjectant to you must not be blocked by walls etc.
WCH
09-17-04, 12:40 AM I've always favoured a few powerful creatures over many weak ones. Partly for this very reason, partly because I really hate rolling initiative (usually make it up, anyway, but it's still easier to make a list of order of actions for 5 PCs and 3 monsters than 5 PCs and 25 monsters).

You could argue that whirlwind doesn't apply in all directions, since the PC wouldn't reasonably be able to strike directly below his feet as quickly as he could around him. Or you could set the limit arbitrarily at 8 attacks, since it's highly unlikely that even a prodigy warrior would be able to make 3 attacks per second, as would need to happen for him to get 26 attacks in a 6 second round.
K'man
09-17-04, 03:36 AM ~Whirlwind attack isn't spinning around in a circle with your weapon, it's settign up the angles so that each attack, whether it hits or misses, leads naturally into a followup on the enxt enemy. That's why it requires expertise and spring attack, rather than great cleave, which is what a lot of people seem to be describing in their conception of whirlwind.
~Second, it's possible to get as many as 52 or 104 attacks out of a whirlwind, if the creatures surrounding you are small enough to fit 2 or 4 of their number into each square (note this does not apply to swarms, as they are too individually tiny, or present too many factors for even the most alert fighter to calculate).
...You can get 32 attacks from one whirlwind if someone empties a bag of four rats into each square next to you, but that's a cheese of a different flavor...
Naeron
09-17-04, 05:37 AM Yes people are definitely getting the wrong idea about whirlwind attack, it already allows far more than 26 attacks on a flat surface, let alone in 3D.

A Titan with whirlwind attack could hit a potential 48 medium targets on the ground, with a reach weapon that is 120 targets (if my maths is right). Even an Ogre Fighters whirlwind affects 24 potential targets (non-reach).

The fighter climbing down a shaft is already penalised for his situation when using WA, he will be in a very bad situation due to the limitations of climbing. The rules make it hard enough for him to win in combat already so there is no real reason why you need additonal nerfs of a rarely used skill.
darczero
09-28-04, 01:55 AM Been there, done that... Whirlwind Attack, if you remember, originated with the original Oriental Adventures Kensai.
About 6 years ago, I ended up fighting a multitude of very small bugs with fire and poison attacks. Being a Kensai, I ignored their Fear effect (I think they were actually Demons of some sort; I don't remember). My initiative was higher than theirs, so I killed the entire swarm before one could attack me. They were all around me, and above, and nearly everywhere else imaginable.
At the time, the character was 14th level. Since the books did not state that a character could only gain 1 level per adventure (that we could find), I gained 9 levels from that encounter. That was still not as bad as a 6th level fighter advancing to 17th level because of one small portal to a lower plane (okay, so it was a mile-wide portal directly to the 4th layer of Hell), with devils pouring out of it left and right.

Enough reminiscing. In 3rd edition, I have not found a clear answer on that. Check the Manual of the Planes for their Combat in Three Dimensions information.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dayglo_Sword 09-16-04, 05:30 AM	Cant find anything in the books and cant search forums anymore so any help in the following would be appreceated. How does Whirlwind Attack operate in 3D? (primarily when flying or against wall climbers). It seems that its possible to get up to 26 attacks ( 8 around, 9 above, 9 below) which seems excessive (and dice rolling hell). have i misread something? or how can i power it down? (i was thinking of forbidding 'long' up\down diagonal attacks for this feat, cutting it down to a 'resonable' 18 potential attacks!) The reason i ask is that i was planning a descent down a narrow pit, with constant attacks on the PCs on the way down. But then realised that the one man army fighter\barbarian would think hes gone to heaven (rather than the hell I intended). p.s. have Wizards thought about putting a spell checker in the forums - i need it. :mad:
MinusInnocence 09-16-04, 06:27 AM	This is an interesting dilemma. Recently while playing in a friend's game, we descended into a hive of giant ants. Having a general dislike of all monstrous vermin, ant or otherwise, I proceeded to chop them to pieces; but they came at us stacked pretty deep, since they could reach us while gripping the walls. The tunnels were designed to optimize their assets and minimize ours, such as being able to hold off a pass and only fight a few of them at a time. In this situation, if I had Whirlwind seemingly I would be at an advantage: there were certainly more of them in my threatened area at a time than the number of attacks I get per round (a big ol' stinkin' 1, at 5th). Unfortunately, there is a hole in your reasoning. Whirlwind doesn't create a "dice-rolling hell" because only one attack roll is made. That is the tradeoff: like Manyshot, you sacrifice all of your potential attacks to be able to make one at your highest bonus. Granted, you're most likely to succeed with this single attack so it's not much of a sacrifice at all... but if you DO, then you've just spent a full round action to make the enemies laugh at you. The irony of the feat, and the danger it poses to those unfamiliar with it, is that you're generally only going to get a lot of mileage out of Whirlwind when flight would be your best option: namely, immediately before or after you are completely surrounded. Provoking AoOs by Bullrushing out of the crowd is probably the smartest thing you can do in this situation, since if you DO miss, you only get a measly 5-foot step. Imagine the frustration of a 20th level fighter at that point... he could have rolled three more dice and may have hit at least ONE person. This is particularly true of the scenario you're planning. If you're descending down into a pit and people are attacking you from all sides while attacking, Whirlwind probably isn't the best idea. The rest of the party isn't going to be very happy the first time your "one man army" rolls a big ol' miss with his single attack that round, and still fails to descend any further. Not only is he holding up the line, he didn't neutralize the threats and the rest of the party probably doesn't have Whirlwind to count on. My long-winded point is that Whirlwind is a bit of a gamble. Come to think of it, if there are that many baddies... why don't they just wait until everyone is climbing down then cut the rope?
Naeron 09-16-04, 06:35 AM	By the rules, yes its 26 attacks. Whirlwind gives you one attack against each person you threaten. However it is exceptionally unlikely that you could actually get anywhere near that number attacking a single person climbing down a narrow pit unless everyone is flying. To fit that many opponents you would need an open area 15ft high and 15ft deep and wide as a minimum (and if they are not flying what is everyone standing on). As these attackers will probably either be flying (in which case they attack from below or from holes in the wall with ranged and reach weapons (its very hard to use a reach weapon when climbing as they need 2 hands so they should find it much easier to stay out of the PC's threatened areas). It will always be hell for the characters because they will need to be making climbing rolls for every hit they take, lose any dex bonus to AC (which the barbarians uncanny dodge doesn't counter) and can only use a single hand and while doing so cannot move. Even an uneven surfaced chimney will be DC10 because you can guarantee that the enemy will cut any ropes and may try dumping water down to make it slippery so it becomes DC 15. If its natural rock then those DC's go up by 5. Edit: You do roll separately for each attack with WA "one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach." one melee attack means 1 attack roll, Manyshot specifically says "Both arrows use the same attack roll".
MinusInnocence 09-16-04, 06:40 AM	Hmm... I dunno why I thought you only got to make a single attack roll. Maybe I misinterpreted the rules from 3E. I still have to wonder about the original poster's ideas about 26 potential targets, though... that's a whole lot of people. I agree with Naeron that regardless of the way the feat works, the odds are against the character in question. In fact, he's probably going to get the rest of the party killed if he tries to use it.
EatFlan 09-16-04, 11:31 AM	here is a solution: If your characters are rappelling down a shaft and since whirwind is like a hack slack globe have him risk cutting his rope. thats a damn long fall if he does.
Board_Rider 09-16-04, 01:34 PM	I would say no. I know, I know this game is make belief and all but within tight quarters the Whirlwind Attack feat just isn't possble. There is no feasible way for that PC to attack upwards and around him/herself effectively. Furthermore, remember that while the Barbarian side of this PC may have the Uncanny Dodge benefit he still does not have his Dex bonus to AC since he/she is climbing. Also remember about any armor check penalty. That B/F may not think he is in heaven for long. If the PC is flying I don't think that his fly rating is high enough to levitate and gain all those attacks. Check that. I think that you need a "good" or better maneurverability to levitate.
Sildatorak 09-16-04, 01:50 PM	I think that cutting away the "corners" of threat cube is very reasonable if you make it so that those people can't attack him. Remember, if he is doing a WWA, then he will only get attacks on those people that are in position to attack him. Yes it is potent to get 1 attack against 26 people, but it is much worse to be on the receiving end of 26 attacks against 1 person.
Kragg Bonemeal 09-16-04, 01:56 PM	I know it is possible, but improbable that you will be that totally surrounded multiple times. Once, maybe twice in your career will you have more than 8 enemies around you. Don't worry about your fighter attempting to purposefully get totally surrounded just to use Whirlwind Attack. If that is his preferred attack method, he'll be rolling up a new character soon anyway. You are all forgetting being on the Astral Plane. No up/down... only formless grey that you move through with thought power. Very easy to have 3 dimensional combat.
FrostyObsitnic 09-16-04, 02:02 PM	If the fighter is climbing down on a rope, he still probably wouldnt have the maneuverability to do a whirlwind anyway. Imagine trying to spin around with enough force to get a decent hit in on 10 different monsters while simultaneously holding onto a rope. It just doesnt seem possible. A good portion of whirlwind is footwork.
Crossover-Chronicler 09-16-04, 02:30 PM	How does Whirlwind Attack operate in 3D? (primarily when flying or against wall climbers).As far as I know, if you can reach them they're fair game.It seems that its possible to get up to 26 attacks ( 8 around, 9 above, 9 below) which seems excessive (and dice rolling hell).It's true, that does seem excessive. On the other hand, contriving to have 26 individual opponents swarm a single character seems kins excessive as well.have i misread something? or how can i power it down? (i was thinking of forbidding 'long' up\down diagonal attacks for this feat, cutting it down to a 'resonable' 18 potential attacks!)A "diagona;" strike is a "diagonal" strike - in such a case you would have to (for the sake of consistency) prohibit all attacks along those angles. Except with Reach.The reason i ask is that i was planning a descent down a narrow pit, with constant attacks on the PCs on the way down. But then realised that the one man army fighter\barbarian would think hes gone to heaven (rather than the hell I intended).Well, I certainly wouldn't nerft the feat just because it's suddenly useful in a single narow situation during an upcoming adventure. I'd say, find some way to make the feat less useful in that situation (such as by widening the tunnel and giving the enemy reach or ranged weapons - he can only Whirlwind about half the enemies at a given time, and the rest can keep hitting). Better yet, let the fighter have his moment of glory.
deadDMwalking 09-16-04, 03:13 PM	I think the feat does sound unreasonable in that situation. The rules do not specifically prohibit attacking all possible points. However, I am going to assume that they made an assumption about people on the ground using it against other people on the ground. My houserule (which I'll tell everyone if they are considering this feat) will be that you must choose a plane (like Blade Barrier). The plane can be any direction centered on you. That maans for a medium creature with a non-reach weapon it will be 8 squares. It can be the squares all around them, or it can be 1 high in the front, his level in the center, and 3 low in the back..... I think that is reasonable and my players will still be happy with it. Generally, I think they will consider the intended point of whirlwind attack to deal with hordes of goblins, or other creatures that try to overwhelm them on the ground.
Polymorph 09-17-04, 12:33 AM	So, either the Warrior swings his weapon horizontally with such force, that it actually creates a whirlwind or he utilises his 6 seconds for the round to jump arround like mad, swinging his weapon in every possible direction... I don't really know which one of these possibilities sounds more redicolous, really :D I would houserule, that you need to have solid ground beneath your feat and all squares adjectant to you must not be blocked by walls etc.
WCH 09-17-04, 12:40 AM	I've always favoured a few powerful creatures over many weak ones. Partly for this very reason, partly because I really hate rolling initiative (usually make it up, anyway, but it's still easier to make a list of order of actions for 5 PCs and 3 monsters than 5 PCs and 25 monsters). You could argue that whirlwind doesn't apply in all directions, since the PC wouldn't reasonably be able to strike directly below his feet as quickly as he could around him. Or you could set the limit arbitrarily at 8 attacks, since it's highly unlikely that even a prodigy warrior would be able to make 3 attacks per second, as would need to happen for him to get 26 attacks in a 6 second round.
K'man 09-17-04, 03:36 AM	~Whirlwind attack isn't spinning around in a circle with your weapon, it's settign up the angles so that each attack, whether it hits or misses, leads naturally into a followup on the enxt enemy. That's why it requires expertise and spring attack, rather than great cleave, which is what a lot of people seem to be describing in their conception of whirlwind. ~Second, it's possible to get as many as 52 or 104 attacks out of a whirlwind, if the creatures surrounding you are small enough to fit 2 or 4 of their number into each square (note this does not apply to swarms, as they are too individually tiny, or present too many factors for even the most alert fighter to calculate). ...You can get 32 attacks from one whirlwind if someone empties a bag of four rats into each square next to you, but that's a cheese of a different flavor...
Naeron 09-17-04, 05:37 AM	Yes people are definitely getting the wrong idea about whirlwind attack, it already allows far more than 26 attacks on a flat surface, let alone in 3D. A Titan with whirlwind attack could hit a potential 48 medium targets on the ground, with a reach weapon that is 120 targets (if my maths is right). Even an Ogre Fighters whirlwind affects 24 potential targets (non-reach). The fighter climbing down a shaft is already penalised for his situation when using WA, he will be in a very bad situation due to the limitations of climbing. The rules make it hard enough for him to win in combat already so there is no real reason why you need additonal nerfs of a rarely used skill.
darczero 09-28-04, 01:55 AM	Been there, done that... Whirlwind Attack, if you remember, originated with the original Oriental Adventures Kensai. About 6 years ago, I ended up fighting a multitude of very small bugs with fire and poison attacks. Being a Kensai, I ignored their Fear effect (I think they were actually Demons of some sort; I don't remember). My initiative was higher than theirs, so I killed the entire swarm before one could attack me. They were all around me, and above, and nearly everywhere else imaginable. At the time, the character was 14th level. Since the books did not state that a character could only gain 1 level per adventure (that we could find), I gained 9 levels from that encounter. That was still not as bad as a 6th level fighter advancing to 17th level because of one small portal to a lower plane (okay, so it was a mile-wide portal directly to the 4th layer of Hell), with devils pouring out of it left and right. Enough reminiscing. In 3rd edition, I have not found a clear answer on that. Check the Manual of the Planes for their Combat in Three Dimensions information.