Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Baernwulf 09-19-06, 01:11 AM	Ok, I already typed this once, and it's late. The party fighter have a greatsword of increased size, how do I restrict how fast he kills things, without making it impossible for the wizard and rogue to do something too? As an example:He does on average 13 damage a turn or something like that. That's a one hit kill on the wolf that almost killed the rogue, just rolling normally. Ideas? Thoughts? Criticism?
Saberus 09-19-06, 01:13 AM	two words, Rust Monster two more words, Rusting Grasp
Chainsaw 09-19-06, 01:14 AM	Question 1: why did you let him get that big a** sword if you think it's too much? Question 2: why are you concerned that your PCs are good at what their class does?
Seerow 09-19-06, 01:18 AM	Okay, Im assuming he took Monkey Grip? He has a crappy attack bonus. Take advantage of that. Monsters with a higher AC, people using combat expertise and fighting defensively should make him realize bigger isn't always better. If he's getting enlarged from other sources, like the Party Wizard, then he's draining resources, and can only do it twice a day. Increase encounters per day and it won't be so bad.
High Octane 09-19-06, 01:19 AM	WHY is it increased size? No way, not possible from the SRD that he has that at level 1 unless he has some level adjustment trait. Anyway, you can accomplish that kind of damage from power attack. Remember Power Attack is double from a 2 handed weapon. 2d6 + 8 first level. Only have to drop your attack by 1. Edit: By the way, this is assuming 18 strength. Edit: Apparantly it IS attainable at level 1. Hes taking a -2 on all attacks. And he is missing a feat.
ermedic 09-19-06, 01:43 AM	No way, not possible from the SRD that he has that at level 1... Actually, it is possible. Just not if you're only using OGC (like the SRD). Monkey Grip allows a character to wield a weapon one size category larger at a -2 attack. If the fighter is a race with the powerful build trait (such as the Goliath from RoS), he can wield weapons one size category larger as well. Of course, I believe that any races with the powerful build trait have a +1 level adjustment so the PC would have to have an ECL of 2. Either way, your dilemma can be circumvented in a couple of ways. As previously mentioned, a higher AC would make it more challenging but that might not be fair to the other PCs. It's not a lot of fun to fight something that you can't hit just because it has to be a challenge for the party tank. Another way around it is to add more bad guys. More creatures means that, while the fighter is hacking away at the monster, the other PCs have somebody to fight as well. Just keep in mind that if the player built the character to be a damage dealing machine, he is probably lacking in another area like AC. Even so, the fighter class (IMHO) doesn't get a lot of glory. Let him have it if it's appropriate.
JulesCARV 09-19-06, 01:56 AM	Suppose you're an Orc barbarian with 18 base strength, +4 racial to 22, and you rage, you have 26 strength, for a modifier of +8. Now suppose, as your level 1 feat, you took Powerful Charge, for an additional 1d8 damage on charges. Say your weapon is a greatsword. Now you deal 2d6 + 1d8 + 12 damage. That's an average of 23.5 damage, compared to 14.5 average for 3d6 + 4. Granted, a bit of a one-trick pony, since it only works on a charge, and only during a rage. Still, the rest of the time, it's 2d6 + 9, an average of 16, still a bit higher than 14.5. Fighters, barbarians, etc. do do very well at level 1. I don't know whether your player is abusing the rules or not, but his or her time in the sun will eventually pass. Edit: 3d6 + 4 damage is good, I think. It's quite impressive at level 1. I don't think, though, that it's somehow horribly overpowering. Also, what about an Orc psychic warrior with psionic weapon and powerful charge? Basically, take away rage, and add 2d6 damage from expending psionic focus. That comes to 4d6 + 1d8 + 9 damage, or 27.5 average damage. Re-edit: Oops, powerful charge need +1 base attack bonus, so a psychic warrior couldn't take it at level 1.
Jackmojo 09-19-06, 02:20 AM	Hordes of small, dextrous monsters, such as kobolds, will show him up as well, he'll have a fair hard time hitting them, and everyone else will be just as likely to one shot them as he is, with their low HP, and lacking any ability to deal with more then one a turn will leave him doing unneccessary overkill. Jack
Roivas 09-19-06, 02:53 AM	He can't throw his greatsword, well he can he probably won't though, so just use ranged attacks from a position where melee attacks don't work. It's easy to negate melee wonders, try multiple creatures too, his AC will be subpar since he spent 75gp on a large greatsword and he might miss anyways. I don't think high damage is bad, not even at low levels. The things to watch out for are super AC beasts, instant kill uber spells, and autokill tactics. A guy with a big *** sword isn't a big deal, not now nor ever.
Eaglos 09-19-06, 02:58 AM	Was there an ACTUAL reason for him acquiring such a weapon? Was it vital for the completion of your scenario? If not, why did you give it to him? Just because he said "I want to buy a bad a$$ sword"??? Disregarding that, you can have someone steal it from him for a while and make him venture to get it back. The other option is to put a curse on the weapon and have the player risk a lot when using it. Finaly the weapon can be a part of a greater ritual, banishment etc and has to be "sacrificed" in the end. PS: I did not mean to offend you. It is just annoying when DMs allow their players to do extreme damage and act sooo surprised and ask for a solution.
Encard 09-19-06, 03:11 AM	Eh... Enemies with a half-decent AC, ranged attackers, stealthy attackers, traps, social situations, sleep, color spray and other similar spells, trip, grapple, enemies with reach... Anything besides enemies that run onto the point of his sword, really. If you're varying encounters a bit, his high damage shouldn't be an issue - anyway, how many CR 1 or lower enemies even have the HP to survive more than one hit from a regular greatsword wielded by a high-STR fighter? Assuming 18 Str, 2d6+4 is an average of 11 damage per hit, which will drop most of what he's fighting anyway.
runestar 09-19-06, 03:44 AM	A fighter wielding a greatsword and subjected to the enlarge person spell would do 3d6 +1.5 str mod. 4 damage implies a str score of 16-17 :rolleyes: Why are you people making a big fuss over such a basic tactic which should have been expected in the first place? I would hardly call it overpowered or cheating....:P An orc fighter with base str 16 gets a final str score of 22, that's +9 damage. Throw in magic weapon and power attack for 1, he could actually get base damage of 3d6+12. You people are complaining about 3d6+4?:confused: I would say just give it to him. Or use several weak foes spread out so he doesn't get to benefit from cleave too much. The mage will catch up soon enough,;)
allenchan 09-19-06, 04:09 AM	Seriously, pretty common tactic at level one. Hence why low levels are so dangerous for casters. Ye ol' orc barbarian 1 can do 2d6+14. Its there moment to shine, because in a few levels they will feel utterly meaningless as casters will be able to do everything they can do, and more.
Voran 09-19-06, 07:41 AM	Besides, thinking long term, just because he's got an oversized greatsword now, he's going to have to comission a magical one since I find it less likely he'll run across magical variations of one in his travels.
Zherog 09-19-06, 08:08 AM	I agree with Runestar and Allenchan. The dude's got a 16 or 17 Strength, and he utterly wasted a feat on Monkey Grip, which is proven time and time again to not be worth the cost. So he's got: BAB +1, Str +3, Monkey Grip Penalty -2 = +2 to attack. Big deal - he should miss as often as he hits.
Zherog 09-19-06, 08:10 AM	Besides, thinking long term, just because he's got an oversized greatsword now, he's going to have to comission a magical one since I find it less likely he'll run across magical variations of one in his travels. If it were a more odd weapon, I might agree with your point. But a greatsword is a fairly common weapon, and it's likely to be used by Large creatures the party encounters.
kliate 09-19-06, 08:18 AM	It's actually not that hard to do that kind of damage at level 1 Human Sorcerer, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword and: Enlarge Person Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 1, Strength 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid creature Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature’s size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size. A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target’s speed. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size. All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons affected by this spell deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell. Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,. Enlarge person counters and dispels reduce person. Enlarge person can be made permanent with a permanency spell. Material Component A pinch of powdered iron. (Emphasis added) He gets 10' reach that way, too.
The_Ditto 09-19-06, 08:26 AM	My 1st level rogue joins the party: Str 16 Great Sword (2d6) Sneak Attack +1d6 .. total: 3d6 + 4 I still haven't picked my feat ... :tiphat: I suppose I could take Human and take Martial Weapon Proficiency as my bonus feat .. Or heck .. just take a level of fighter at level 2 ... :D OOOHHH the options!!! :uh-huh: (sorry ... couldn't help myself ... :angelhide )
Ut-Napishtim 09-19-06, 09:16 AM	Yeah, don't sweat it dude. It won't seem like that big of a deal once the Wizard starts dropping Fireball's for 5d6 on multiple opponents. The lower levels are the time of the beatstick. Let him have his moment. :twocents:
CharlieRock 09-19-06, 09:31 AM	Ok, I already typed this once, and it's late. The party fighter have a greatsword of increased size, how do I restrict how fast he kills things, without making it impossible for the wizard and rogue to do something too? As an example:He does on average 13 damage a turn or something like that. That's a one hit kill on the wolf that almost killed the rogue, just rolling normally. Ideas? Thoughts? Criticism? The rogue and wizard shouldnt see themselves as competing with the fighter in terms of "who iz mo ubah". Rogue feeling left out? Make traps. Wizard feeling left out? Takes more effort but scour his skill/spell list and set up obstacles for just him. A door with hieroglyphs in a dead language that he has the knowledge skill to (roll check) read leading to touching the "open" button. A rival wizard webs (or sleeps, holds,etc) or even a snaky gobbo with a tanglefoot bag can incap the fighter challenging the player wizard to finish the combat or spell the fighter free.Still worried? Catwlaks overhead of a dungeon corrider (out of melee range) lined with minion archers/attack mages while the "big boss" monster is challenging the fighter. Flat out with that much melee damage your rogue or wizard should work on other areas to round out the team. :) Happy dungeoneering
CharlieRock 09-19-06, 09:36 AM	My 1st level rogue joins the party: Str 16 Great Sword (2d6) Sneak Attack +1d6 .. total: 3d6 + 4 I still haven't picked my feat ... :tiphat: I suppose I could take Human and take Martial Weapon Proficiency as my bonus feat .. Or heck .. just take a level of fighter at level 2 ... :D OOOHHH the options!!! :uh-huh: (sorry ... couldn't help myself ... :angelhide ) Your leaving something out. Greatswords are not a weopon rogues begin with proficiency in .Are you just going to swallow the -modifiers ? Thats a lot of damage ,but wouldnt you miss too often for it to be tactical?
Feriin 09-19-06, 10:22 AM	Ok, I already typed this once, and it's late. The party fighter have a greatsword of increased size, how do I restrict how fast he kills things, without making it impossible for the wizard and rogue to do something too? As an example:He does on average 13 damage a turn or something like that. That's a one hit kill on the wolf that almost killed the rogue, just rolling normally. Ideas? Thoughts? Criticism? Customize all of your monsters, give them feats that increase thier natural armor, give them more dex, give them dodge. give them damage reduction.. There is alot you can do to counter a player that does massive damage.
Feriin 09-19-06, 10:24 AM	Your leaving something out. Greatswords are not a weopon rogues begin with proficiency in .Are you just going to swallow the -modifiers ? Thats a lot of damage ,but wouldnt you miss too often for it to be tactical? I am guessing you did not read all of his post, since the answers to your stupid questions are actually in it.
(Psi)SeveredHead 09-19-06, 10:27 AM	There's no -4 penalty to hit if you spend a feat on Martial Weapons Proficiency (greatsword), which is what he said he'd do. I don't think that's optimal, but it's not crippling either.
CharlieRock 09-19-06, 10:33 AM	I am guessing you did not read all of his post, since his answers to your stupid questions are actually in it. Hey, now! The post just says that is how much damage with no feats, later on stating that as a human race character an extra feat is allowed. The race was not worded decisively so i posed the question of considering the penalties. Since you can read, try levelling up your comprehension skills. (psi)SeveredHead, The character ,by time of posting, was not realized to the point where a race was decided. Its a possibility. By "leaving something out" was to mean only a certain facet was being presented. The class of rogue with a weapon choice of greatsword is not optimal for greatest melee damage. Try human fighter with STR 16 ,weapon focus;greatsword, and rapid assault. 2d6+4 (3d6+4 on first strike ) with no to-hit penalties. The DPR is much higher.Heck, add in Power Attack it becomes 2d6+5 (3d6+5 first strike)
lears_fool 09-19-06, 10:42 AM	Ok, I already typed this once, and it's late. The party fighter have a greatsword of increased size, how do I restrict how fast he kills things, without making it impossible for the wizard and rogue to do something too? As an example:He does on average 13 damage a turn or something like that. That's a one hit kill on the wolf that almost killed the rogue, just rolling normally. Ideas? Thoughts? Criticism? Getting back to the original post. . As pointed out earlier . . 14 damage a hit at level one isn't that unusual a thing actually, certainly not a gamebreaker. And as has also been pointed out, it's foolish to say 'you can't have it' when the weapon is 1) not unbalanced and 2) very likely to not be terribly uncommon if there are large humanoids out there. So there's nothing wrong with you GIVING him the weapon if it fits in your world, and it may very likely be totally reasonable. Now. . for the fixes. . there are three obvious ones. 1) Large amounts of smaller creatures. Not an uncommon sort of thing to encounter certainly. And depending on the abilities of the other characters they likely can be just as involved in that sort of combat. 2) Tactical bad guys. Archers are absurdly deadly in D&D due to their range. Reach weapons can also be more than exasperating. . and just imagine his face when the clever little kobold wizard casts true strike, waits for him to use his AOO, and disarms him. 3) Get past first level. With the party ripping through everything you should be able to do it in no time.
Reinforcements 09-19-06, 10:42 AM	Customize all of your monsters, give them feats that increase thier natural armor, give them more dex, give them dodge. give them damage reduction.. There is alot you can do to counter a player that does massive damage. Or you could realize that Monkey Grip isn't really that good, 3d6+4 is hardly game-breaking, and fighters are at their best at low levels. People giving advice on how to screw this player (as though he's some sort of munchkin for having a big sword) are out of their minds. Just let it ride, it's not that bad.
Feriin 09-19-06, 10:50 AM	Or you could realize that Monkey Grip isn't really that good, 3d6+4 is hardly game-breaking, and fighters are at their best at low levels. People giving advice on how to screw this player (as though he's some sort of munchkin for having a big sword) are out of their minds. Just let it ride, it's not that bad. Honestly I laugh at my players if they take feats like monkey grip. Its a total waste of a perfectly good feat IMHO. I was stating things that the OP could do if he wanted to, so he could handle the damage a little easier. To be honest I wish my PCs would just limit a first level fighter at 3d6+4 dmg, they can do much worse (or better depending on how you look at it).
Feriin 09-19-06, 10:58 AM	Hey, now! The post just says that is how much damage with no feats, later on stating that as a human race character an extra feat is allowed. The race was not worded decisively so i posed the question of considering the penalties. Since you can read, try levelling up your comprehension skills. This is funny , mostly due to the Irony here. I still haven't picked my feat...:tiphat: I suppose I could take Human and take Martial Weapon Proficiency as my bonus feat .. Or heck .. just take a level of fighter at level 2 ... OOOHHH the options!!! Yeah he didn't say he definatly was going to pick human, he said his options. He also said he didn't pick his normal feat yet either, so if he went with human he would have 2 feats.
Sulaco 09-19-06, 10:58 AM	Doesn't Monkey Grip have a higher BAB requirement than 1? I thought it was like BAB 3 or so.
starfire311 09-19-06, 11:21 AM	so let me get this straight he took monkey grip to get a large greatsword... this means he is probably +2 attack(+3 str, +1 BAB, -2 MG) 3D6+4 damage now replace monkey grip with Weapon Focus +5 attack(+3 str, +1 BAB, +1 WF) 2D6+4 damage personally I would rather have the second attack... taking a -3 to attack to get +1D6 damage is awful. yes he could have monkey grip and WF, then try replacing MG with PA and see that he would be better off, or taking any number of other feats. monkey grip is really really bad... it takes serious optimization to even get it to be a benefit.
The_Ditto 09-19-06, 11:46 AM	This is funny , mostly due to the Irony here. Yeah he didn't say he definatly was going to pick human, he said his options. He also said he didn't pick his normal feat yet either, so if he went with human he would have 2 feats. Thank-you for understanding (and the others that did ) ... :bow: Just to clarify to those who got confused as to my choice of post .. I was trying to show how easy it was to get 3d6+4 dmg with core only, and no feats!! (Everyone else is taking "bizarre" feats I've barely heard of :uh-huh: Monkey Grip? Rapid Assault? Power Charge?) Bah ... just stick to core, keep things simple, and you can still hit 3d6+4 ... (yeah, ok, maybe I am at a -4 ... but that's hardly the point of the discussion ... and a simple core feat remedies that .. as does a 2nd level "dip" into a core class ...) Bottom line ... we do not need to get "fancy" guys to get 3d6+4 dmg at first level!! :tiphat: My note the to Original Poster ... don't worry about it ... ;) Imagine what would have happened if we combined a couple of these "odd" feats mentioned by others ... Human Rogue with Large Great Sword. 2 feats: Martial Weapon Prof + Monkey Grip anyone?? :rolleyes: Yep 4d6 + str*1.5 ... do I win a prize yet? (I'm sure that could be outdone easily as well ... :cool: )
Kimokeo 09-19-06, 11:50 AM	1. He can only attack one opponent per turn. 2. He has to hit. 3. He has 10 hpts plus what. Let's say 14hpts. How many hits will it take to go unconscious? Take a kobold with a 1d6 weapon. That 3.5 avg. One hit equals 25% of his hitpoints. Two hits and he's at 50%. Three hits and he's at 75%. 4. Every crit confirmed is approximately 50% of hit hitpoints. The fighter is a tough and can cause damage. But, he's only 1st and he is beatable. A toe-to-toe fight is what he's good at - he should be. I see no reason to improve all the opponents the group meets. If you use the fighter as the measure of strength to beat, the moment the fighter drops, the rest of the group is going to be in bigger trouble. Put two of these opponents together and the fighter can only handle one of them.
Board_Rider 09-19-06, 11:57 AM	I personally like: Human Duskblade 1 with a 16 STR, Blade of Blood, a greatsword and the Rapid Assault feat. That 1 round can be killer. 6d6+3....not too shabby. But it is overkill.
wonlee76 09-19-06, 12:17 PM	Let me get this straight here. Level 1 PC with Monkey Grip (1 feat burnt) with possibly 2 more feats to use (Human Fighter) with a 16 or 17 starting strength. +1 BAB + 3 Strength -2 MG +1 Weapon Focus (maybe): +3 to hit. That's not too hot in my opinion. Wolf AC is 14 so he's got less then a 50/50 shot of hitting it presuming he even took weapon focus. (I'm presuming for arguments sake he does not have a masterwork large sized greatsword yet since that would be way outside of his starting gold range). Toss on a large or small wooden shield for your humanoid baddies. That +1 or +2 to AC is going to make a world of difference for this guy's ability to hit. The rogue with a high dex should have a similar or higher attack roll with ranged attacks (depends on what feats are taken). The wizard is the odd man out on attack rolls but that's the burden of being a level 1 wizard. He spent 100 gp on a large sized greatsword meaning less money spent on armor. Presuming he rolled exceptionally well for starting gold, he might have a chain shirt for armor (with little money left over for other gear) or more likely studded leather armor. So a 13 or 14 AC + Dex bonus. Sounds pretty vulnerable to me even at low levels. Win initiative and attack first. Most intelligent monsters who are willing to fight will target the guy wielding the big sword first since he would be seen as the bigger threat in the group. My recommendation is don't do anything to "counter" your player. At level 1, anything you do to counter this player is going to hurt your other players more. The big damage he's dishing out will eventually balance out and I don't see this being a problem to begin with. He's sacrificing his ability to hit in exchange for big damage (and 1 shot kills). Even with a regular greatsword, he would have a decent shot of 1 shot killing most low CR monsters.
Sulaco 09-19-06, 01:03 PM	Wait, doesn't Monkey Grip also specifically disallow two-handed weapons?
Salla 09-19-06, 01:22 PM	This is not a big deal. At low levels, the fighter should pretty much one-punch anything he comes across. It's actually an interesting trick of low-level design; yeah, you can power your damage level up, but past a certain point, it's wasted. It doesn't matter if you do 9 or 20 points of damage to something with 8 HP; it's still dead (just some deader than others). My Complete Warrior has grown legs and wandered off somewhere, so I can't answer Sulaco's questions, sadly.
Grand Theft Otto 09-19-06, 01:52 PM	Fighters well... fight. Thats all they do. They dont have useful skills, dont contribute much in social situations, dont have access to utility magic and adventrue solving divinations. They kill things. In my book, they should be the best at killing things, at all levels of play.
Ut-Napishtim 09-19-06, 01:53 PM	No, you can use a two-handed weapon, just not a double weapon, BAB +1.
Amon_WinterfallIV 09-19-06, 02:11 PM	That's not a lot of damage, its an average of 14. Monkey Gripped Greatsword would be 3d6, +4 to strength I guess. (Weapon Focus and Power Attack would go well here too, to enhance the build). Alternatively, this could be a "Powerful Build" race, like a goliath, wielding a Greatsword one size larger. Fighters are one of the best classes at low level; they tend to suck at all other levels. I agree with the others, there are other ways to deal this much damage (Rogue sneak attack is a good one, while Wizard/Sorcerer can use Sleep to win an encounter. Let him have his day with this, he pays a price for this.
Zherog 09-19-06, 02:37 PM	Alternatively, this could be a "Powerful Build" race, like a goliath, wielding a Greatsword one size larger. But then it'd be a second level character, since goliaths have a +1 LA.
The_Ditto 09-19-06, 02:45 PM	I personally like: Human Duskblade 1 with a 16 STR, Blade of Blood, a greatsword and the Rapid Assault feat. That 1 round can be killer. 6d6+3....not too shabby. But it is overkill. Damn .. there goes my 1st prize ... :weep: Do I still get a runner up award?? :D Wait, doesn't Monkey Grip also specifically disallow two-handed weapons? :uh-huh: ... no idea ... but good point if it does .. hehe ;) No, you can use a two-handed weapon, just not a double weapon, BAB +1. Damn, there goes my runner up prize!! (Disqualified since Rogue 1 doesn't have BaB +1 ) ... :tantrum:
ermedic 09-19-06, 03:00 PM	Doesn't Monkey Grip have a higher BAB requirement than 1? I thought it was like BAB 3 or so. Nope. BAB +1.
kelvinaw273 09-19-06, 03:04 PM	Why is it that we get this here about how unbalanced it is, and elsewhere we get posts about how fighters suck? Yes, what he is doing is legal. Power Attack would be more useful for him in the long run though, as you can use it with any weapon other than a light weapon. Cleave would also be more useful given the kind of things you tend to fight at level 1. In short, we have a fighter that can take most thoings down with one hit - if he hits - but not a lot else.
glug 09-19-06, 03:13 PM	Just to repeat what some people have already said, based on my experience playing and now DMing low levels: A fighter will typically one-shot foes at the very low levels. The best way to counter this without increasing the difficulty of foes is to increase the number of foes. If that fighter can cut down a CR1 mob in one shot, he can surely cut down a CR 1/3 mob in one shot. But it'll take him 3 rounds to cut down 3 of them, and it gives the rest of the party a chance to take part in the combat as well. My wife is playing a half-orc barbarian with a greataxe in my game. The hook that they spent time on involved a small town that was in the midst of a struggle with some nearby kobolds, when the two sides were brutalized by a necromancer who tired of their distracting noises. When the PCs got there, they tried to piece together what had happened and find a lost friend, and encountered humanoid and kobold skeletons and zombies at every step. I was wondering what I was doing wrong when my wife was able to one-shot skeleton warriors with a slashing weapon, but I've gotten used to it now. When a larger foe comes along, she is taught quickly that charging in and smashing things isn't the smartest way to do things always - your warrior will learn that too. And while that lesson is being learned, the other members of the party are coming into their own as well. By the time a fighter gets 2 attacks, your wizard is already blowing rooms full of kobolds, and your cleric is dusting swarms of skeletons and zombies. :cool:
Aeromus 09-19-06, 03:37 PM	Human Fighter Level 1 Exotic Weapon Prof (warmace) 1d12 damage one handed weapon. Monkey Grip: change damage to 3d6 one handed Two Weapon Fighting Fighter Level 2 Oversized Two weapon Fighting (both hands 3d6 damage Assume stats are 16 str, and 15 dex At second level +2 Bab +3 for strength -2 for monkey grip. -2 for two weapon fighting total bonus +1/+1 Masterwork (reasonable at level 2) +2/+2 for 3d6+3/3d6+1 As you level this gets better. Level 3 weapon Focus (Warmace) +4/+4 Level 4 Weapon SPecialization (warmace) +5/+5 3d6+5/3d6+3 Level 5 Assume both +1 weapons now. +6/+6 3d6+6/3d6+4 Level 6 Two weapon Pounce (can use both weapons on a charge) Power Attack Level 7 Assume one weapon is +2 now +9/+3 and +8 3d6+7/3d6+7 and 3d6 +4 Need I continue? Be glad he didn't play a human monk. By level 3 a Human monk can charge and deal 1d6 + 1d12 + 1d8 + str(min +1) damage.
Baernwulf 09-19-06, 08:44 PM	Ok, there are some questions and some things I'd like to clear up. I'm not freaking out and saying it's ungodly, I was just looking for some quick advice, not 20 posts telling me how to do more damage with things from books I don't even have. To those of you who did give me some advice, thank you. I'll see if I can squeeze it in. Question: I've been hearing a lot about the "Monkey Grip" feat. What book is it from? Because I looked through the PHB and it seemed to me he could wield it with a -2 penalty without taking a feat to be able to use it. So please fill me in on Mankey Grip. Some things I'll try: 1. Giving some of my creatures wizad/ sorcerer levels. 2. Ranged attacks. 3. Flanking, fighting defensively, and some other things like that. Baernwulf
The_Ditto 09-19-06, 08:57 PM	Question: I've been hearing a lot about the "Monkey Grip" feat. What book is it from? Because I looked through the PHB and it seemed to me he could wield it with a -2 penalty without taking a feat to be able to use it. So please fill me in on Mankey Grip. I believe what you're reading is an allowance to use a weapon one size larger ... but: a) I think it must be a 1-h weapon and b) you must use it 2-h ... Yeah .. found it ... check PHB pg 113 .. The rule you're taking about (-2 cumulative to hit) is in the 3rd paragraph under "Weapon Size" It's heading is italicized "Inappropriately Sized Weapons: Keep reading The final paragraph prior to "Improvised Weapons" talks about using a weapon larger than you .. That Large Dagger ... (A Light weapon for a Large creature) becomes a 1-H weapon for a Medium User (with a -2 to hit) That Large Long Sword (A 1-H weapon for a Large creature) becomes a 2-H weapon for a Medium User (with a -2 to hit) and finally: That Large Great Sword (A 2-H weapon for a Large creature) becomes impossible to wield by a Medium User. Monkey grip helps solves some of these .. but I'm not well versed in it .. I think it's in Complete Warrior (hence somebody above stating they couldn't find their Complete Warrior at the moment ..) :tiphat:
Thomar_of_Uointer 09-19-06, 09:01 PM	Ok, there are some questions and some things I'd like to clear up. I'm not freaking out and saying it's ungodly, I was just looking for some quick advice, not 20 posts telling me how to do more damage with things from books I don't even have. To those of you who did give me some advice, thank you. I'll see if I can squeeze it in. Question: I've been hearing a lot about the "Monkey Grip" feat. What book is it from? Because I looked through the PHB and it seemed to me he could wield it with a -2 penalty without taking a feat to be able to use it. So please fill me in on Mankey Grip. Some things I'll try: 1. Giving some of my creatures wizad/ sorcerer levels. 2. Ranged attacks. 3. Flanking, fighting defensively, and some other things like that. Baernwulf Well, you failed to specify just how your player was causing the problem. There are many, many ways to build characters in D&D. That's your problem. By the RAW, it's impossible to wield a weapon larger than yourself (Medium twohanded is Medium, Medium onehanded is Small, Medium light is Tiny). Go back, tell him you made a mistake, give him a normal Medium greatsword, and be nice and refund him for the increased price on the weapon.
Chrono Nexus 09-19-06, 09:55 PM	A rogue with a high str and the right feats could deal 2d6+6 +d6 with one attack at a comprible bonus to hit at level 1. I don't think the fighter's power is out of line.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-19-06, 10:05 PM	Doesn't Monkey Grip have a higher BAB requirement than 1? I thought it was like BAB 3 or so. The old, useful Monkey Grip did. The new, blowful one doesn't.
sneak_Blast 09-19-06, 10:19 PM	Okay. First of all, the fighter only gets -2 for using a size category different sword. It is totally legal; he just gets his attack slightly reduced. Secondly, my advise. Use a bunch of orcs or goblins. If you have a whole bunch of CR 1/2 monsters or so reasonably spaced apart (think, ambush or surronding party) then the fighter can only kill max 1 a turn (no cleave), and he has to run inbetween the orcs (which you could make take at least an extra turn, if you separate the orcs at least 20-30 ft., depending on wat armor he is wearing). If you had 5 orcs, which were at least 30 ft. apart, the fighter can only kill one, max every 2 turns. (that is assuming he hits, which will not necessarily happen considering he has -2 attack) That will give the rest of the party time to beat up on their own enemies. Hope this advice helps!
Wuggadad 09-19-06, 10:23 PM	3d6+4, as others have commented, is not particularly worrying. Until the guy gets Cleave, that is only one attack a round. Combat Reflexes, Deft Opportunist, and a two-handed Reach Weapon can be more of a problem. D.O. gives +4 to hit with Attacks of Opportunity. So, 1st level, 18 strength +4 to hit, +4 for DO, +1 for Masterwork Glaive. +10 to hit. And possibly gets 3 or 4 of those. Or go Forgotten Realms Shield? Dwarf or whoever else gets access to the Regional Feat, Tireless. And take Extra Rage. Get an additional 2 rages per day. 22 strength when raging is +9 to damage. With a 2d6 weapon, that is 16 damage, compared to 15 for the oversized weapon. But take a Fire Fire Sorceror: Fiery Spell +1 damage per die for fire spells Bloodline of fire +2 levels with fire spells, +4 to saves vs fire Use the Dragon Magazine "sphere" rules, for +1 level with fire spells Pyro +1 damage per die for fire spells, and +5 to Reflex save to extinguish flames set by you (requires a flaw to pay for it.) So what does this monster do? Burning hands do 4d4 +8 at 1st level. 18 points of damage, area effect. Or, for the Clerical Side: Improved Turning and Divine Energy Focus. Turns as 2nd level cleric, treated as 4th level cleric for determining whether it commands/destroys or merely rebukes/turns. Give it, oh, Air and Fire Domains. So he can wander around with 2 HD worth of Undead, 2 HD worth of Air Elemental, and 2 HD worth of Fire Elemental.
sneak_Blast 09-19-06, 11:19 PM	dude, for the sorc, those enhancing spell things ARE METAMAGIC FEATS. You would have to increase the level of the spell at least 3 times. Thats a 4th level spell. You cant cast 4th level spells at level one. Period. Wow. The ignorance on this forum.
Wuggadad 09-19-06, 11:28 PM	Heh. Relying on an online source for Feat descriptions, I am not surprised they miss certain things. Still, Fire Sphere is doable, and the Fire Bloodline, giving +3 levels (_IF_ they stack. Unnamed bonuses, but still) with fire spells. 4d4 Burning Hands at level 1 would still be pretty nasty.
Wuggadad 09-19-06, 11:30 PM	And while Fiery Feat is listed as a Metamagic Spell, Pyro is listed as a General Feat.
Sapp 09-19-06, 11:42 PM	Or you could realize that Monkey Grip isn't really that good, 3d6+4 is hardly game-breaking, and fighters are at their best at low levels. People giving advice on how to screw this player (as though he's some sort of munchkin for having a big sword) are out of their minds. Just let it ride, it's not that bad. Words of the wise. Let this fighter have his fun and design your challenges as you would have anyway, without the intent of screwing over the fighter. You'll need all the time you have now to prepare screwing over the spellcaster once you guys get to mid-level in a few to several months.
ATynam 09-20-06, 12:18 AM	I'm afraid i'm going to have to chime in with the same statement that others are making, "fighters doing lots of damage at low levels is usually the rule rather than the exception". I'm intrigued as to why people have to go to splat books and weird feats to get the numbers up. For example, a Half-orc from the Forgotten Realms campaign I ran. 1st level fighter, Str 20, power attack, cleave, masterwork greataxe (from bonus equipment choice). Dropping the 1 point of BAB into power attack gave him +6 to hit, 1d12+9 dam. And on the times he rolled a crit the damage was a mighty 3d12+27. Not bad for a 1st level character. I'm not too sure what your concern is. This is what a fighter does. How did I cope with the afore mentioned Half-orc? I just played the game as normal. If I recall he fell to a kobold after failing a will save against a sleep spell. Such is life. If you need to bring the rogue and wizard into the spotlight a bit more then play to their specialities. For the rogue, I have always found that having a few outlying sentries for them to sneak upto and dispatch keeps them happy. The wizard can be harder to cater for at low levels considering their limited spell casting. An encounter can go horribly if they have chosen the wrong spells for the day. The truth is that at low levels a wizard is more of a support character and it can be difficult for a player to maintain interest if they had espected to be some sort of fireball wielding maniac (not an uncommon expectation in this world of WOW players). I would warn against tailoring every situation against the fighter. That said, there is nothing wrong with the occaisional combat that denies a character the use of their mainstay weapon. Use grappling to deny the use of any weapon other than light or grapple checks. Use locations such as cramped tunnels to deny the use of large weapons. Put the fighter in water to halve damage from slashing weapons. Run a town based adventure where walking around with a huge blade strapped across your back is going to raise the interest of the town watch. Most of all, be creative and keep the players on their toes.
runestar 09-20-06, 02:07 AM	Or you could use monkey grip to hold a larger weapon, then cast enlarge person to make it huge, further bumping up the damage dice.:) If your spellcaster took precocious apprentice and chose bull's strength, that's another +4str(+3 damage). If you are a barb with rage...:) Enjoy your damage dealing capacities while you are still low lv. The party spellcasters will overtake you soon enough...:P
JadeSpider9643 09-20-06, 03:07 AM	Has anyone taken the time to notice that a the base weapon for all this discussion will cost your entire net worth at level 1? weapon prices double for each size category increase, and a greatsword isn't cheap to begin with. 100gp for a large greatsword. Unless you rolled for your starting cash and rolled well...you won't have armor, or a backpack...or clothes....or food.....no torches....no money for a night at the inn. did I mention no armor? your gonna DIE
runestar 09-20-06, 03:18 AM	If you play in a FR setting, you get bonus masterwork starting eq. Starting with a masterwork greatsword at 1st lv is not out of the question, and you can always sell it to purchase a large greatsword.:) There is also a regional feat that gives you +300gp extra starting gold as well.
Zherog 09-20-06, 08:14 AM	Use the Dragon Magazine "sphere" rules, for +1 level with fire spells :love: I feel special, now - I wrote that article. :love:
The_Ditto 09-20-06, 08:39 AM	Okay. First of all, the fighter only gets -2 for using a size category different sword. It is totally legal; he just gets his attack slightly reduced. Nope ... not legal ... it's a Large 2-H weapon .. before you post again, I respectively suggest you read Pg 113 in the PHB .. Here's the relevant text from the SRD: Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder. Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. [b]If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.[b] Underlined text is what has been noted and everyone focuses on .. "Hey, it's only 1 size category too big, I take a -2 when swinging that Large 2-H weapon ... " However, the bolded part is what is truly relevant to this discussion: It's not legal to wield that Large 2-H weapon by a Medium sized creature without the help of Monkey Grip (or Powerful build, etc.) I'm intrigued as to why people have to go to splat books and weird feats to get the numbers up. we didn't ... I've already pointed out a couple core-only ways of hitting 3d6 dmg ... as stated by the OP, that's not the point of the thread ...
Frugal 09-20-06, 09:10 AM	I've been following this thread for awhile and it seems like most of the talk has been about 3d6+4 not being that bad and how he could have min/maxed it even more. What I haven't really seen is anyone pointing out that for the most part, the things you're going to fight at 1st level tend to be one hit kills no matter what. Oooh, I rolled over 20 damage, doesn't help me any when that kobold only has 4 hp. At low levels, maximising damage is more or less wasted effort. Sure it might look impressive compared to what the other characters can do but once a baddie hits -10 his dead, and usually they aren't getting up after being dropped below 0. The other thing that's worth mentioning is that it really should be that way at 1st level, most of the part members are going to be pretty fragile too with only the odd character into the double digits for HP. 1 or 2 good hits will usually drop a PC unconcious. So the party needs to go up against creatures that can be taken out quickly because the longer the combat drags on, the more likely it is that one or more of the PCs will drop.
The_Ditto 09-20-06, 10:56 AM	What I haven't really seen is anyone pointing out that for the most part, the things you're going to fight at 1st level tend to be one hit kills no matter what. Oooh, I rolled over 20 damage, doesn't help me any when that kobold only has 4 hp. It was mentioned by someone ... :tiphat: The other thing that's worth mentioning is that it really should be that way at 1st level, most of the part members are going to be pretty fragile too with only the odd character into the double digits for HP. 1 or 2 good hits will usually drop a PC unconcious. So the party needs to go up against creatures that can be taken out quickly because the longer the combat drags on, the more likely it is that one or more of the PCs will drop. Yep, somebody pointed out they'd rather have a fighter with a higher total to hit mod than more dmg ... helps take out those pesky kobolds quicker .. Hit - kill Hit - kill Hit - kill Hit - kill as opposed to: Swing - miss Swing - miss Swing - miss Hit - paint walls ... :uh-huh:
CharlieRock 09-20-06, 11:23 AM	The issue:Loaded up damage on a hit.Needs a challenge that doesnt wipe out the team. Resolution:Set combat so that damage is inconsequential. Examples:A cabal of evil magic-users with mirror image and using swarm tactics. Other illusions to puff-up encounters. A mob of lower HD minion types, like kobolds,or gobbos.xIf you can do 14 damage is not as important as 4 would just as much suffice. Other answers:set encounters to exploit strengths of other party embers,such as traps and skill checks.
KShaver 09-20-06, 11:39 AM	Human Fighter Level 1 Exotic Weapon Prof (warmace) 1d12 damage one handed weapon. Monkey Grip: change damage to 3d6 one handed Two Weapon Fighting Fighter Level 2 Oversized Two weapon Fighting (both hands 3d6 damage Good thought, but the feat monkey grip specifically dissalows using an oversized offhand weapon. You could at best use a 3d6 war mace in your mainhand and a d12 warmace in your offhand. Better to save the feat and use both at the same size. ...and no 3d6+4 isn't that bad at first level, seen plenty of high str characters that do more damage with a higher attack value.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-20-06, 03:29 PM	I think people are confusing the good 3e Monkey Grip feat for the startlingly inferior 3.5 version. 3e Monkeygrip: You wielded weapons as if they were one size category smaller at a -2. This meant you could weild Huge weapons (which in 3.5 would be 'Large 2-handed' weapons) two handed, and Large (3.5 Medium 2-handed) weapons one handed. 3.5 Monkeygrip You can weild a weapon sized larger than you at a -2 with no change in handedness. This means you can weild a Large greatsword two handed, but you can't one hand a normal greatsword anymore. Note that it now, for no reason, takes and EPIC feat to weild a big weapon at no penalty.
Solik 09-20-06, 05:56 PM	Would it be reasonable to reduce the penalty to -1, or (since a feat is supposed to represent a resource expenditure that powers you up...) just remove the penalty altogether (after all, how often will you find treasure that's sized just right for you)?
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-20-06, 06:00 PM	I would rather it remove the penalty than have it change handedness at all. Meaning that with monkeygrip, you can weild a Large longsword two handed without penalty. A second feat, IMO is better to allow the handedness change (again, without penalty), but with monkey grip as a prereq.
Solik 09-20-06, 06:03 PM	So I could take those two feats with a dwarven fighter and wield a large dwarven warpike in one hand with a tower shield in my off-hand. Or get TWF and OTWF and dual-wield large dwarven warpikes. Heh, fear. Look out, I might actually would be useful past level 5 :p
Kensan_Oni 09-20-06, 06:05 PM	Ok, I already typed this once, and it's late. The party fighter have a greatsword of increased size, how do I restrict how fast he kills things, without making it impossible for the wizard and rogue to do something too? As an example:He does on average 13 damage a turn or something like that. That's a one hit kill on the wolf that almost killed the rogue, just rolling normally. Ideas? Thoughts? Criticism? You do realize a 1st level Rogue can also match this feat without any real issues, right? Relax. You have a charecter that can deal damage. It's much easier to deal with, then say a 25 AC by lvl 2. While other people have brought up ways to control it, ask if you really need to control such a thing. In fact, it might be conter-productive to target the player with negatives that are ment to hurt only him. There are plenty of challenges that you can throw at the party that will be both fair to them, and allow the player to keep his concept of big, bad, Cloud Clone. Consider the following. An example would be ranged fighters. Instead of relying on close combat to deal damage, have bandits and kobolds with crossbows, or goblins that use Javelins before closing into hand to hand. Make the party come to them, and that will allow you to spread damage to make it fair. By far, high damage will be desirable in your game, and the first five levels tend to go by at light speed. I really wouldn't worry to much about it. He has spent a lot of feats to have a specialized fighter that will be really hard to mantain. Let him have it for now, and plan that respec mission (See PHB2) for when he realizes that he'll never get a Large Magical Two-Handed Sword.