3d6 [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

3d6 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
stoneshape
09-10-06, 02:58 AM hi

Roll 3d6 instead of d20, an option in UA. Anyone try it? What were the pros and cons?
Oompa
09-10-06, 04:22 AM You can roll between 3 and 18 insteadt of 1 and 20..

Ill stick to 1 and 20..
Romtos
09-10-06, 04:33 AM Also, the chances of getting 'extreme' values with 3d6 are very, very small.
The change of rolling a 20 is as big as rolling a 7 with 1d20. The change of rolling a 18 with 3d6 is 1/216. So with this system you're rolling (roughly) ten times less 18's than 20's with a d20.
Oompa
09-10-06, 04:47 AM Also, the chances of getting 'extreme' values with 3d6 are very, very small.
The change of rolling a 20 is as big as rolling a 7 with 1d20. The change of rolling a 18 with 3d6 is 1/216. So with this system you're rolling (roughly) ten times less 18's than 20's with a d20.

Dutch people are smart :) except me :D
otomik
09-10-06, 04:49 AM I played shadowrun for many years and it had a basic problem with it's D6 system, many proposed solutions like D8 that lessened the problem a bit. shadowrun's publishers finally addressed it in 4th edition and I don't think it's been successful with the old fan base. Certainly a 3D6 bias towards the mean roll would increase the importance of all those modifiers, seems less suited toward the high fantasy rpgs like D+D and more suited toward Spycraft or Monte Cook's Iron Heroes. Wouldn't 2D10 get some of those changes without having to dramatically alter all the crunch for crit ranges and whatnot?
HalasterAteMyHamster
09-10-06, 05:19 AM Used it in a campaign a year ago. All it does it normalize rolls. Ultimately it's got very little effect, except for making high rolls seem luckier. At the same time, it also minimizes the chance for catastropes like natural 1s.
Romtos
09-10-06, 07:08 AM Dutch people are smart :) except me :D
As a finishing touch, God created the Dutch. :D
And why aren't you smart? :weep:
X-Codes
09-10-06, 08:18 AM Needlessly overcomplicated, besides it's kinda difficult for some people to actually get a good roll with 3d6 because their hands are so small (like me).
HauptSin
09-10-06, 10:20 AM X-Codes, you must have some terribly tiny hands. I can roll my entire set of dice(d4, 3d6, d8, 2d10, d12, d20)in one hand with a little care. 3d6 is a cakewalk. I just tested this with the 3d6, and rolled a Critical Failure with 3 1's, by the way. >_<

And to actually address the thread: How do hit chance and such change with using this, seeing as how much of D&D's rules are based on the d20? Like, what are the odds of a character with a +3 attack bonus hitting an enemy with an AC of 22? Even a roll of 18, which is a 1/216 chance, only adds up to a 21, and even then only hits because it's an automatic success roll...
Oompa
09-10-06, 11:03 AM As a finishing touch, God created the Dutch. :D
And why aren't you smart? :weep:

Im bad at maths :D
Ad7m
09-10-06, 03:13 PM I am on both sides of the fence with this. One one hand, it levels out rolls so extremely good and extremely bad results are less common. It definitely makes the game more difficult for lower-level characters, but it also makes it more consistent throughout. So the party's lvl 10 barbarian won't likely critical miss a goblin four times in a row, for instance (which we have all seen similar things happen).

On the other hand, this is way more complicated. If some players are slow with addition (I have a couple of players who take a good 10 seconds to total damage or attack rolls), it will slow down play. In addition, critical ranges will be altered even more, so a character with a regular critical range of 18-20 will now crit on 16-18. Someone with better mathmatic abilities than can figure out the statistics on that, but it would seem that 3d6 would possibly have a greater probability of rolling a critical threat?

D&D already uses a 3d6 mechanic of sorts in Ability Score generation, so it wouldn't be too different to roll 4d6 and subtract the lowest for each roll.

Making 3d6 work in D&D to exactly match up with the range of possibilities of a d20 would be pretty complicated. A way to match the exact number range would be to roll 3d6 and 1d4. The 1d4 would have the following modifiers associated with it:

Roll - Result
1 - Subtract 1 from 3d6 roll
2 - Subtract 2 from 3d6 roll
3 - Add 1 to 3d6 roll
4 - Add 2 to 3d6 roll

For example, a roll of 3, 6 & 2 on the d6s and a 3 on the d4 would result in a 12.

The die code would then have a range of 1 - 20, with critical hits and misses still associated with natural 20s and 1s. Three 1s on the d6s and a 1 on the d4 would be a natural 1. Three 6s and a 4 on the d4 would be a natural 20.

It looks like I've rambled a bit, but for some reason this idea intrigued me.
stargate525
09-10-06, 03:13 PM I prefer the 2d10 method. it still has the bell curve, but it's not nearly as low on the ends (a crit being twice as likely(which is still a 1/100 shot)).
lears_fool
09-10-06, 04:09 PM 3d6 and 2d10 work just fine in my experience.

The player's math skills isn't an issue (if 12 year olds can play shadowrun, then D&D players can add 3d6, especially when they're ONLY adding d6es! They'll pick that one up quick).

The end result is that you're creating a bell curve, which means that combat becomes far more dependent on tactics and far less dependent on luck.

Whether that's good or bad depends quite a bit on the game.

Oh. .and to counter some observations being made, in my experience 3d6 speeds UP the game, because with less random elements the next players in line tend to be less likely to have your natural 20 or absurd miss cause them to completely rethink their next action. I haven't played it a lot, but that's been a consistent trend when I've played with it.
JamesDruidDM
09-10-06, 04:34 PM Why exactly would you want to use that over a D20? Am I missin something here?
lears_fool
09-10-06, 04:55 PM Why exactly would you want to use that over a D20? Am I missin something here?

It's used to normalize the action a bit, and to add strength to the 'average' numbers.

Which means that your die rolls are far more likely to be average. . causing much of combat and the like to flow 'as expected' and be more focused on factics while making those rarer very high or low rolls more exciting and dramatic
Salla
09-10-06, 06:27 PM Why exactly would you want to use that over a D20? Am I missin something here?

To establish a bell curve and minimize the effects of luck, good or bad, during combat situations. Instead of an even chance to roll every number, the results will cluster near 10 and 11. Crushing criticals and lucky chances become less likely ("I need a 17 to make this jump ... YES!"), but so do crushing failures and bad luck on simple tasks ("Eh, I just need a 4 to make this jump ... crap.").

(Of course, the latter is why D&D includes taking 10 and 20, but that isn't always permitted.)
Tzjanii
09-10-06, 08:21 PM Uhhh, maybe I've been playing wrong for 7? 8? years now, but isn't rolling d6's the official way to generate scores? In fact, a character isnt supposed to get 1's, 2's, 19's or 20's as their raw scores ever. It isn't supposed to happen because no score can be lower than three and no score can be above 18. Thats the whole point of rolling d6's! (Can't post an SRD link cause creating characters isn't part of the Open thingy)

The average score is supposed to be 10 and 11, which is true if you roll d6's. On a d20, there is no average, so it throws it all out of whack.
Salla
09-10-06, 08:24 PM Uhhh, maybe I've been playing wrong for 7? 8? years now, but isn't rolling d6's the official way to generate scores? In fact, a character isnt supposed to get 1's, 2's, 19's or 20's as their raw scores ever. It isn't supposed to happen because no score can be lower than three and no score can be above 18. Thats the whole point of rolling d6's! (Can't post an SRD link cause creating characters isn't part of the Open thingy)

The average score is supposed to be 10 and 11, which is true if you roll d6's. On a d20, there is no average, so it throws it all out of whack.

We're not talking about ability scores, we're talking about the use of 3d6 vs 1d20 for task resolution (aka skill checks, attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks).
X-Codes
09-10-06, 08:28 PM X-Codes, you must have some terribly tiny hands. I can roll my entire set of dice(d4, 3d6, d8, 2d10, d12, d20)in one hand with a little care. 3d6 is a cakewalk. I just tested this with the 3d6, and rolled a Critical Failure with 3 1's, by the way. >_<

And to actually address the thread: How do hit chance and such change with using this, seeing as how much of D&D's rules are based on the d20? Like, what are the odds of a character with a +3 attack bonus hitting an enemy with an AC of 22? Even a roll of 18, which is a 1/216 chance, only adds up to a 21, and even then only hits because it's an automatic success roll...
By "roll" I mean more than "pick up and throw." I'd call being able to roll 9 dice at once having Shaq hands.

Anyway, if you're using 3d6 then you should disallow the option for players to take 10, and probably adjust high-DC skill checks. I still say it's all needlessly overcomplicated, however. It's called the d20 system afterall, not the 3d6 system.
Sikyanakotik
09-11-06, 02:51 AM Anyway, if you're using 3d6 then you should disallow the option for players to take 10, and probably adjust high-DC skill checks. I still say it's all needlessly overcomplicated, however. It's called the d20 system afterall, not the 3d6 system.
Yeah, the 3d6 system is GURPS! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/Sikyanakotik/mooglegrin.png

I really don't see how it'd be any more complicated personally. However, if you just sustitute the dice straight off, you can say farewell to ever rolling a critical hit.
Salla
09-11-06, 03:11 AM Yeah, the 3d6 system is GURPS! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/Sikyanakotik/mooglegrin.png

I really don't see how it'd be any more complicated personally. However, if you just sustitute the dice straight off, you can say farewell to ever rolling a critical hit.

Well, not *ever*. Using the UA chart for conversions, the probability is, on the whole, about the same; it just SEEMS that much rarer.
Nidair
09-11-06, 05:20 AM I'm not very pleased with the 3d6 style (or Fastplay as it's sometimes called), as it favors those who metagame and deliberately try to reach attack bonouses 9/10 lower than needed, get their saves about equally high, and so forth. For those who enjoy making a character that is fun to roleplay like me, well, hope for really good rolls, which appear a lot less.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stoneshape 09-10-06, 02:58 AM	hi Roll 3d6 instead of d20, an option in UA. Anyone try it? What were the pros and cons?
Oompa 09-10-06, 04:22 AM	You can roll between 3 and 18 insteadt of 1 and 20.. Ill stick to 1 and 20..
Romtos 09-10-06, 04:33 AM	Also, the chances of getting 'extreme' values with 3d6 are very, very small. The change of rolling a 20 is as big as rolling a 7 with 1d20. The change of rolling a 18 with 3d6 is 1/216. So with this system you're rolling (roughly) ten times less 18's than 20's with a d20.
Oompa 09-10-06, 04:47 AM	Also, the chances of getting 'extreme' values with 3d6 are very, very small. The change of rolling a 20 is as big as rolling a 7 with 1d20. The change of rolling a 18 with 3d6 is 1/216. So with this system you're rolling (roughly) ten times less 18's than 20's with a d20. Dutch people are smart :) except me :D
otomik 09-10-06, 04:49 AM	I played shadowrun for many years and it had a basic problem with it's D6 system, many proposed solutions like D8 that lessened the problem a bit. shadowrun's publishers finally addressed it in 4th edition and I don't think it's been successful with the old fan base. Certainly a 3D6 bias towards the mean roll would increase the importance of all those modifiers, seems less suited toward the high fantasy rpgs like D+D and more suited toward Spycraft or Monte Cook's Iron Heroes. Wouldn't 2D10 get some of those changes without having to dramatically alter all the crunch for crit ranges and whatnot?
HalasterAteMyHamster 09-10-06, 05:19 AM	Used it in a campaign a year ago. All it does it normalize rolls. Ultimately it's got very little effect, except for making high rolls seem luckier. At the same time, it also minimizes the chance for catastropes like natural 1s.
Romtos 09-10-06, 07:08 AM	Dutch people are smart :) except me :D As a finishing touch, God created the Dutch. :D And why aren't you smart? :weep:
X-Codes 09-10-06, 08:18 AM	Needlessly overcomplicated, besides it's kinda difficult for some people to actually get a good roll with 3d6 because their hands are so small (like me).
HauptSin 09-10-06, 10:20 AM	X-Codes, you must have some terribly tiny hands. I can roll my entire set of dice(d4, 3d6, d8, 2d10, d12, d20)in one hand with a little care. 3d6 is a cakewalk. I just tested this with the 3d6, and rolled a Critical Failure with 3 1's, by the way. >_< And to actually address the thread: How do hit chance and such change with using this, seeing as how much of D&D's rules are based on the d20? Like, what are the odds of a character with a +3 attack bonus hitting an enemy with an AC of 22? Even a roll of 18, which is a 1/216 chance, only adds up to a 21, and even then only hits because it's an automatic success roll...
Oompa 09-10-06, 11:03 AM	As a finishing touch, God created the Dutch. :D And why aren't you smart? :weep: Im bad at maths :D
Ad7m 09-10-06, 03:13 PM	I am on both sides of the fence with this. One one hand, it levels out rolls so extremely good and extremely bad results are less common. It definitely makes the game more difficult for lower-level characters, but it also makes it more consistent throughout. So the party's lvl 10 barbarian won't likely critical miss a goblin four times in a row, for instance (which we have all seen similar things happen). On the other hand, this is way more complicated. If some players are slow with addition (I have a couple of players who take a good 10 seconds to total damage or attack rolls), it will slow down play. In addition, critical ranges will be altered even more, so a character with a regular critical range of 18-20 will now crit on 16-18. Someone with better mathmatic abilities than can figure out the statistics on that, but it would seem that 3d6 would possibly have a greater probability of rolling a critical threat? D&D already uses a 3d6 mechanic of sorts in Ability Score generation, so it wouldn't be too different to roll 4d6 and subtract the lowest for each roll. Making 3d6 work in D&D to exactly match up with the range of possibilities of a d20 would be pretty complicated. A way to match the exact number range would be to roll 3d6 and 1d4. The 1d4 would have the following modifiers associated with it: Roll - Result 1 - Subtract 1 from 3d6 roll 2 - Subtract 2 from 3d6 roll 3 - Add 1 to 3d6 roll 4 - Add 2 to 3d6 roll For example, a roll of 3, 6 & 2 on the d6s and a 3 on the d4 would result in a 12. The die code would then have a range of 1 - 20, with critical hits and misses still associated with natural 20s and 1s. Three 1s on the d6s and a 1 on the d4 would be a natural 1. Three 6s and a 4 on the d4 would be a natural 20. It looks like I've rambled a bit, but for some reason this idea intrigued me.
stargate525 09-10-06, 03:13 PM	I prefer the 2d10 method. it still has the bell curve, but it's not nearly as low on the ends (a crit being twice as likely(which is still a 1/100 shot)).
lears_fool 09-10-06, 04:09 PM	3d6 and 2d10 work just fine in my experience. The player's math skills isn't an issue (if 12 year olds can play shadowrun, then D&D players can add 3d6, especially when they're ONLY adding d6es! They'll pick that one up quick). The end result is that you're creating a bell curve, which means that combat becomes far more dependent on tactics and far less dependent on luck. Whether that's good or bad depends quite a bit on the game. Oh. .and to counter some observations being made, in my experience 3d6 speeds UP the game, because with less random elements the next players in line tend to be less likely to have your natural 20 or absurd miss cause them to completely rethink their next action. I haven't played it a lot, but that's been a consistent trend when I've played with it.
JamesDruidDM 09-10-06, 04:34 PM	Why exactly would you want to use that over a D20? Am I missin something here?
lears_fool 09-10-06, 04:55 PM	Why exactly would you want to use that over a D20? Am I missin something here? It's used to normalize the action a bit, and to add strength to the 'average' numbers. Which means that your die rolls are far more likely to be average. . causing much of combat and the like to flow 'as expected' and be more focused on factics while making those rarer very high or low rolls more exciting and dramatic
Salla 09-10-06, 06:27 PM	Why exactly would you want to use that over a D20? Am I missin something here? To establish a bell curve and minimize the effects of luck, good or bad, during combat situations. Instead of an even chance to roll every number, the results will cluster near 10 and 11. Crushing criticals and lucky chances become less likely ("I need a 17 to make this jump ... YES!"), but so do crushing failures and bad luck on simple tasks ("Eh, I just need a 4 to make this jump ... crap."). (Of course, the latter is why D&D includes taking 10 and 20, but that isn't always permitted.)
Tzjanii 09-10-06, 08:21 PM	Uhhh, maybe I've been playing wrong for 7? 8? years now, but isn't rolling d6's the official way to generate scores? In fact, a character isnt supposed to get 1's, 2's, 19's or 20's as their raw scores ever. It isn't supposed to happen because no score can be lower than three and no score can be above 18. Thats the whole point of rolling d6's! (Can't post an SRD link cause creating characters isn't part of the Open thingy) The average score is supposed to be 10 and 11, which is true if you roll d6's. On a d20, there is no average, so it throws it all out of whack.
Salla 09-10-06, 08:24 PM	Uhhh, maybe I've been playing wrong for 7? 8? years now, but isn't rolling d6's the official way to generate scores? In fact, a character isnt supposed to get 1's, 2's, 19's or 20's as their raw scores ever. It isn't supposed to happen because no score can be lower than three and no score can be above 18. Thats the whole point of rolling d6's! (Can't post an SRD link cause creating characters isn't part of the Open thingy) The average score is supposed to be 10 and 11, which is true if you roll d6's. On a d20, there is no average, so it throws it all out of whack. We're not talking about ability scores, we're talking about the use of 3d6 vs 1d20 for task resolution (aka skill checks, attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks).
X-Codes 09-10-06, 08:28 PM	X-Codes, you must have some terribly tiny hands. I can roll my entire set of dice(d4, 3d6, d8, 2d10, d12, d20)in one hand with a little care. 3d6 is a cakewalk. I just tested this with the 3d6, and rolled a Critical Failure with 3 1's, by the way. >_< And to actually address the thread: How do hit chance and such change with using this, seeing as how much of D&D's rules are based on the d20? Like, what are the odds of a character with a +3 attack bonus hitting an enemy with an AC of 22? Even a roll of 18, which is a 1/216 chance, only adds up to a 21, and even then only hits because it's an automatic success roll... By "roll" I mean more than "pick up and throw." I'd call being able to roll 9 dice at once having Shaq hands. Anyway, if you're using 3d6 then you should disallow the option for players to take 10, and probably adjust high-DC skill checks. I still say it's all needlessly overcomplicated, however. It's called the d20 system afterall, not the 3d6 system.
Sikyanakotik 09-11-06, 02:51 AM	Anyway, if you're using 3d6 then you should disallow the option for players to take 10, and probably adjust high-DC skill checks. I still say it's all needlessly overcomplicated, however. It's called the d20 system afterall, not the 3d6 system. Yeah, the 3d6 system is GURPS! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/Sikyanakotik/mooglegrin.png I really don't see how it'd be any more complicated personally. However, if you just sustitute the dice straight off, you can say farewell to ever rolling a critical hit.
Salla 09-11-06, 03:11 AM	Yeah, the 3d6 system is GURPS! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/Sikyanakotik/mooglegrin.png I really don't see how it'd be any more complicated personally. However, if you just sustitute the dice straight off, you can say farewell to ever rolling a critical hit. Well, not ever. Using the UA chart for conversions, the probability is, on the whole, about the same; it just SEEMS that much rarer.
Nidair 09-11-06, 05:20 AM	I'm not very pleased with the 3d6 style (or Fastplay as it's sometimes called), as it favors those who metagame and deliberately try to reach attack bonouses 9/10 lower than needed, get their saves about equally high, and so forth. For those who enjoy making a character that is fun to roleplay like me, well, hope for really good rolls, which appear a lot less.