3rd level PCs vs. Harpoon spiders [Archive] - Wizards Community

3rd level PCs vs. Harpoon spiders [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Scarlet Terror
12-09-04, 07:22 PM In my campaign, the PCs are planning to investigate an old boathouse said to be inhabited by demons. The demons are infact 2 harpoon spiders and their master, an undead evil guy. I want the PCs to nearly die, or really die, so I'm hoping that the 5 lv. three PCs get destroyed by these "demons." However, my PCs are very good and have managed their characters well... ex: Gnome Fighter has a +7/+7 with rapid shot... nuff said. Also, the party's two elven paladins can smite evil and engage in melee while the ranger, rogue, and gnome fighter fire arrows. The spiders have low HP, so smite evil could waste them. I don't really know what I'm getting into here; this encounter seems to have TPK written all over it, but the PCs are too good. Is this a good challenge?

The PCs would have the tactical edge, but the "demons" would have the home field advantage...

Any comments are welcome. Thanks.
Scarlet Terror
12-09-04, 07:25 PM Sorry, forgot to mention about their master:

He will be a ghoul-like undead, except stronger, smarter, and better equiped. He will have low level spells as well, like spider climb, Magic Missle, etc. He will also reveal some of the plot for the campaign as well, so he is an important character.
KingTut
12-09-04, 09:13 PM are the spiders neccessary? it is supposedly infested with demons, you could use somthing stronger :evillaugh
Dash Branaghan
12-10-04, 12:14 AM Well, use tactics yourself. First of all, the Harpoon spiders will use ranged attacks if I recall correctly. So wheel in the gnome first. But one way to take out the ranged fighters is to have medium spiders...drop them into melee, and now they get AoO against the ranged fighters. You can use small spiders as well, just to force the melee issue.

If the purpose is to kill the party, or nearly kill them, then don't flank them so they can still escape at the least.

Dash
MrFahrenheit
12-10-04, 12:30 AM Just out of curiosity...why do you want to TPK them?
Scarlet Terror
12-10-04, 05:36 PM I don't really want a TPK, but I want the PCs to remember death is always there. Plus, near-death-experience make PCs value their characters more, and so this leads to better roleplaying and a better campaign.
Shard of Suzail
12-10-04, 07:51 PM I wouldnt say that was the case. D and D doesnt do the near death experience thing well. Characters are usually fine, or all dead. In my experience, people value their character by being good at something and getting to do their "special tricks". So, giving the party wizard a chance to open up on an army of little beasts is often a more enjoyable encounter than giving him a major challenge.

Players certainly concentrate when you put a dangerous encounter on the table, but that doesnt mean they`ll take much pride in the victory. They are usually just thankful they arent dead.

Characters that are often successful are ok, so long as the pc`s are enjoying being tough and heroic. By all means put in some dangerous spiders, but make the encounter memorable by having them do interesting things.

A boat house, well, that has some potential. Make it very big and have lots of row boats that hang from the ceiling. Make it so that the spider monsters hop from boat to boat and poke their long legs down to fight the players below. The boats will act as huge breastplates, protecting them from the players below. This will mean that players who stand around and swing non reach weapons will be innefective against the beasts.

The players will have to think how to get around the spiders' tactic of hiding in the boats and poking them from above. They may waste rounds smashing the boats, they may climb up, into the boats, or they may resort to shooting the beasts when they pop over the edge to strike.

Thus, the encounter becomes interesting and memorable, as well as challenging, without simply saying "these are really big spider monsters".

As to your evil spellcaster, well, his spiders will be poking the players from above and hopping from hanging boat to hanging boat. He can run about in the rafters dropping heavy sandbags down onto the players from above. Sort of a "chaos at the opera" event. He can also cast the odd spell at them, from high above, or drop nasty exploding potions etc. Players will have to climb up into the rafters to battle him, which means getting past the spiders. Again, ranged characters will be able to trade blows using arrows and spells, but they will be busy enough as it is.

You could even be quite cheeky and say that the spider monsters can walk on water, like pond skating insects. That would puzzle the fighters of the party greatly, though they could, say, row out into the lake to battle such a monster, if it was out there. Lots of balance checks all round and the potential for sinking.

Maybe the bad guy escapes in a flying boat, like those seen in the shining south book. The players can then jump onto the nets it trails and try to climb up, all ending in a climatic battle in the skies, with the villain turing the boat this way and that trying to make them fall off, all as his henchcreatures have a running battle on the deck with the party.

Look at Star Wars. Always the memorable fights take place in some vast place filled with big drops and machinery, or otherwise interesting stuff.

A good combat is one where the player goes for the villain and the rascal swings on a rope to end up on another platform or catwalk completely. Soon your players are going to be doing the same and thats what its all about. The more you can spice up the surroundings, the more your players will enjoy the battle, even if it is against fairly mundane critters.
krichaiushii
12-10-04, 09:31 PM Your undead guy might just be a ghast with the spellstitched template (MM2 and apparently CA). By the MM2 version, the ghast gets 2 each 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells from the Conjuration, Evocation, or Necromancy schools.

Web and Summon Swarm seem appropriate, at least.

If you want him to be spidery-like, either choose his spells accordingly or give him a Cloak of Arachnida or Slippers of Spider Climb.
StrahdLover
12-10-04, 09:36 PM Follow Shard of Suzail's advice from a previous post...definitely use terrain and tactics to your advantage....bull rush the armored PC's into the water...that is always fun! :)
Scarlet Terror
12-11-04, 11:09 AM Thanks for all the help guys! Shard, you know this game very well, I really respect that you really took some time to type your response as well. Yes, terrain will make the battle memorable. I'll make the boat house rather large, drawing it on a battle mat. I think I'll make it two levels, having stairs that lead to an overlook that wraps around the inside of the building. That way the evil spellcaster can talk with the PCs before the fight and not risk his head getting sliced off. While the PCs are concentrating on him, the spiders can creep along the walls behind the PCs. I'll have an indoor, small bridge over the water, connecting the two sides of the boat house floor, and rowboats above and in the water. I'm getting a great mental image already. Throw in some Lord of the Rings music, some dice rolls, and roleplaying and... BAM, intense battle.

What you say about the nearly dying, Shard, is true in many cases. But it always gets a positive reaction from my PCs. Anyhow, there will be chances for them to do what they do best. I use the point-buy system, and so each PC has one area where he clearly performs the best. Back in town, a town on rafts mind you, there is a fall festival. Here there will be contests for characters to enter where they will have the spotlight. A storytelling contest for a bard, archery for a ranger/fighter, duel for a rogue, etc. So, the PCs will be able to use their "Special Tricks" soon enough. I know what you mean, though. I was a PC not so long ago, and when I was able to solve a puzzle or disarm a deadly trap, those would be my favorite moments, even over epic battles.

Thanks again everyone, and if anyone has anything else to add, feel free. The session will be tonight, I guess I have a lot to do before then... not to mention all my homework. Thanks.
Shard of Suzail
12-11-04, 07:23 PM Had a bad day, was on my bike and was run down by a taxi. Fortunately, though bike is a mess, all i have is bruises and a skinless knee.

Still, its some compensation to know that my post was useful here. Good luck with things, i`m sure they`ll enjoy it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Scarlet Terror 12-09-04, 07:22 PM	In my campaign, the PCs are planning to investigate an old boathouse said to be inhabited by demons. The demons are infact 2 harpoon spiders and their master, an undead evil guy. I want the PCs to nearly die, or really die, so I'm hoping that the 5 lv. three PCs get destroyed by these "demons." However, my PCs are very good and have managed their characters well... ex: Gnome Fighter has a +7/+7 with rapid shot... nuff said. Also, the party's two elven paladins can smite evil and engage in melee while the ranger, rogue, and gnome fighter fire arrows. The spiders have low HP, so smite evil could waste them. I don't really know what I'm getting into here; this encounter seems to have TPK written all over it, but the PCs are too good. Is this a good challenge? The PCs would have the tactical edge, but the "demons" would have the home field advantage... Any comments are welcome. Thanks.
Scarlet Terror 12-09-04, 07:25 PM	Sorry, forgot to mention about their master: He will be a ghoul-like undead, except stronger, smarter, and better equiped. He will have low level spells as well, like spider climb, Magic Missle, etc. He will also reveal some of the plot for the campaign as well, so he is an important character.
KingTut 12-09-04, 09:13 PM	are the spiders neccessary? it is supposedly infested with demons, you could use somthing stronger :evillaugh
Dash Branaghan 12-10-04, 12:14 AM	Well, use tactics yourself. First of all, the Harpoon spiders will use ranged attacks if I recall correctly. So wheel in the gnome first. But one way to take out the ranged fighters is to have medium spiders...drop them into melee, and now they get AoO against the ranged fighters. You can use small spiders as well, just to force the melee issue. If the purpose is to kill the party, or nearly kill them, then don't flank them so they can still escape at the least. Dash
MrFahrenheit 12-10-04, 12:30 AM	Just out of curiosity...why do you want to TPK them?
Scarlet Terror 12-10-04, 05:36 PM	I don't really want a TPK, but I want the PCs to remember death is always there. Plus, near-death-experience make PCs value their characters more, and so this leads to better roleplaying and a better campaign.
Shard of Suzail 12-10-04, 07:51 PM	I wouldnt say that was the case. D and D doesnt do the near death experience thing well. Characters are usually fine, or all dead. In my experience, people value their character by being good at something and getting to do their "special tricks". So, giving the party wizard a chance to open up on an army of little beasts is often a more enjoyable encounter than giving him a major challenge. Players certainly concentrate when you put a dangerous encounter on the table, but that doesnt mean they`ll take much pride in the victory. They are usually just thankful they arent dead. Characters that are often successful are ok, so long as the pc`s are enjoying being tough and heroic. By all means put in some dangerous spiders, but make the encounter memorable by having them do interesting things. A boat house, well, that has some potential. Make it very big and have lots of row boats that hang from the ceiling. Make it so that the spider monsters hop from boat to boat and poke their long legs down to fight the players below. The boats will act as huge breastplates, protecting them from the players below. This will mean that players who stand around and swing non reach weapons will be innefective against the beasts. The players will have to think how to get around the spiders' tactic of hiding in the boats and poking them from above. They may waste rounds smashing the boats, they may climb up, into the boats, or they may resort to shooting the beasts when they pop over the edge to strike. Thus, the encounter becomes interesting and memorable, as well as challenging, without simply saying "these are really big spider monsters". As to your evil spellcaster, well, his spiders will be poking the players from above and hopping from hanging boat to hanging boat. He can run about in the rafters dropping heavy sandbags down onto the players from above. Sort of a "chaos at the opera" event. He can also cast the odd spell at them, from high above, or drop nasty exploding potions etc. Players will have to climb up into the rafters to battle him, which means getting past the spiders. Again, ranged characters will be able to trade blows using arrows and spells, but they will be busy enough as it is. You could even be quite cheeky and say that the spider monsters can walk on water, like pond skating insects. That would puzzle the fighters of the party greatly, though they could, say, row out into the lake to battle such a monster, if it was out there. Lots of balance checks all round and the potential for sinking. Maybe the bad guy escapes in a flying boat, like those seen in the shining south book. The players can then jump onto the nets it trails and try to climb up, all ending in a climatic battle in the skies, with the villain turing the boat this way and that trying to make them fall off, all as his henchcreatures have a running battle on the deck with the party. Look at Star Wars. Always the memorable fights take place in some vast place filled with big drops and machinery, or otherwise interesting stuff. A good combat is one where the player goes for the villain and the rascal swings on a rope to end up on another platform or catwalk completely. Soon your players are going to be doing the same and thats what its all about. The more you can spice up the surroundings, the more your players will enjoy the battle, even if it is against fairly mundane critters.
krichaiushii 12-10-04, 09:31 PM	Your undead guy might just be a ghast with the spellstitched template (MM2 and apparently CA). By the MM2 version, the ghast gets 2 each 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells from the Conjuration, Evocation, or Necromancy schools. Web and Summon Swarm seem appropriate, at least. If you want him to be spidery-like, either choose his spells accordingly or give him a Cloak of Arachnida or Slippers of Spider Climb.
StrahdLover 12-10-04, 09:36 PM	Follow Shard of Suzail's advice from a previous post...definitely use terrain and tactics to your advantage....bull rush the armored PC's into the water...that is always fun! :)
Scarlet Terror 12-11-04, 11:09 AM	Thanks for all the help guys! Shard, you know this game very well, I really respect that you really took some time to type your response as well. Yes, terrain will make the battle memorable. I'll make the boat house rather large, drawing it on a battle mat. I think I'll make it two levels, having stairs that lead to an overlook that wraps around the inside of the building. That way the evil spellcaster can talk with the PCs before the fight and not risk his head getting sliced off. While the PCs are concentrating on him, the spiders can creep along the walls behind the PCs. I'll have an indoor, small bridge over the water, connecting the two sides of the boat house floor, and rowboats above and in the water. I'm getting a great mental image already. Throw in some Lord of the Rings music, some dice rolls, and roleplaying and... BAM, intense battle. What you say about the nearly dying, Shard, is true in many cases. But it always gets a positive reaction from my PCs. Anyhow, there will be chances for them to do what they do best. I use the point-buy system, and so each PC has one area where he clearly performs the best. Back in town, a town on rafts mind you, there is a fall festival. Here there will be contests for characters to enter where they will have the spotlight. A storytelling contest for a bard, archery for a ranger/fighter, duel for a rogue, etc. So, the PCs will be able to use their "Special Tricks" soon enough. I know what you mean, though. I was a PC not so long ago, and when I was able to solve a puzzle or disarm a deadly trap, those would be my favorite moments, even over epic battles. Thanks again everyone, and if anyone has anything else to add, feel free. The session will be tonight, I guess I have a lot to do before then... not to mention all my homework. Thanks.
Shard of Suzail 12-11-04, 07:23 PM	Had a bad day, was on my bike and was run down by a taxi. Fortunately, though bike is a mess, all i have is bruises and a skinless knee. Still, its some compensation to know that my post was useful here. Good luck with things, i`m sure they`ll enjoy it.