3rd lvl cleric appropriate BBEG for 6 lvl 1s? [Archive] - Wizards Community

3rd lvl cleric appropriate BBEG for 6 lvl 1s? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
pinkbunny
08-15-06, 10:16 AM im a bit of a noob DM and i was wondring if a 3rd level cleric and 1st level warrior are an appropriate boss fight for them.

we have a druid, fighter, rogue, 2 wizards, and a samurai.

Thanks in advance
Archmage Atrus
08-15-06, 10:27 AM I'd make it a level 2 warrior.

And it depends entirely on how well you play that Cleric.

But it *should* be ok.

Edit: Actually, I'd make it 2 level 2 warriors to compensate for the greater numbers. This should make hte EL close to 4.

Edit 2: It also depends entirely on how many fights there are before the BBEG. I forget I'm the "One fight a session" type DM. If they've been going through a dungeon and using up a lot of resources before they get to this guy, stick to the Cleric 3 and Warrior 2. And you might consider getting rid of the Warrior 2 if they're particularly beat up/out of spells by this point.
pinkbunny
08-15-06, 10:33 AM there will be a good amount of sneaking and killing of minions worshipping before the boss fight. ill make it a lvl 2 warrior, and if he overpowers the party ill make him hold back a bit more. He is a plot devise to save the cleric.
kliate
08-15-06, 10:34 AM With some clever group tactics, they should be able to defeat the cleric

- but -

This is a dangerous encounter for them. The Cleric probably has better attacks, AC, hit points and the like than anyone currently in the group. The party should have an option to retreat if things get ugly.

The biggest problem the party has is its shortage of healing. The druid is a good healer - don't get that wrong - but five other party members may be begging for his/her services after the encounter. You can help them with this weakness by providing a partially charged wand or scrolls of Cure Light Wounds. The Druid will be able to make good use of these, and the Rogue may as well depending on whether he/she took skill ranks in Use Magic Device.

My advice therefore is to go for it.
pinkbunny
08-15-06, 10:45 AM if things go sour ive got the army closing in behind them, complete with cleric
Dux_is_me
08-15-06, 10:51 AM Six level 1 characters... well, nothing. Because of the higher numbers (thus, more staying power) they should be able to take on a level 4 encounter (and suffer some casualties). A level 3 cleric could be coupled with a level 1 fighter (or 2 level 1 warriors) for an encounter level 4. But meh, those are just numbers. Hardly very useful. Anyway, 2 level 1 fighters make for a tougher fight. Add a level 2 fighter instead and it may just be too difficult.

Again, those are just numbers. Nothing a few fudges can't solve.
pinkbunny
08-15-06, 11:01 AM i was thinking a lvl 2 might be too much
Ilthorin
08-15-06, 11:14 AM Honestly it comes down to what spells the cleric has memorized. The Fighter and the Samurai should be able to take on the 2nd level fighter as long as his AC isn't too high. That would leave your rogue, 2 wizards and a druid along with its animal companion to take on the cleric. Or even one of the wizards backing up the fighters. Really it's a question of what the cleric has memorized for spells and how many rounds he will have to buff himself and the fighter. But even with a solid selection of Buffs and Attacks the party should be able to handle it.
Sapp
08-15-06, 11:26 AM Yes, it definitely depends on the spells. Forget the fact that the cleric is CR 3.

It also depends on the environment as well. Is it a standard wood/stone surface floor? How large is the room? Are places for the rogue to hide before the fight? etc.
pinkbunny
08-15-06, 11:49 AM the cleric will have many inflict spells, the room will be poorly lit with a good number of pillars, the cleric will be busy at the start , and the fighter will be halfheartedly standing watch, if the rogue can sneak in he will get a chance to sneak attack in the suprise round
Pegasos989
08-15-06, 12:07 PM Way it will go: Let's see... If the cleric uses inflicts and warrior does 1d8+1, they both drop one character per 4 rounds on average. Nice low level bossfight, but doable.

Alternative: Warrior crits 2d8+2, the party loses primary tank on first round. They are screwed.

Alternative 2: 2 wizards both cast sleep, Cleric has about 50-50 that he will fail on atleast 1, warrior has 60% on each one, battle is over in one round.

It really can go any way you can think of...
Gladi
08-15-06, 12:18 PM the cleric will have many inflict spells, the room will be poorly lit with a good number of pillars, the cleric will be busy at the start , and the fighter will be halfheartedly standing watch, if the rogue can sneak in he will get a chance to sneak attack in the suprise round

Bright day
Well they seem to have quite a chance.

The party hitters will have Attack around +4? They would need at least 12 to hit with high probability. Plus they can flank which will make rogue happy.

On the other hand, with inflict moderate wounds you can kill any of your players with few rolls...

I would say, make encounters strong enough and in need cheat; unless you pre-agreed with players on "cannons to the left of them, cannons to the right of them".
Gottwick
08-15-06, 12:25 PM This is a fair fight. Just watch the environment. Two wizards can deliver 28 pts of damage in 4 rounds on average (4 magic missiles each, x3.5 dmg each). Color Spray and Sleep are options. If the conditions are in favor of the party, they have full resources and are prepared, this will be a cake walk for them.
pinkbunny
08-15-06, 01:19 PM the good bit is that they have 3-4 encounters with low lvl minions to tease spells out of em
Gladi
08-15-06, 04:29 PM the good bit is that they have 3-4 encounters with low lvl minions to tease spells out of em

Be cautious with this, nobody likes to sit around while party is fighting BBEG.
pinkbunny
08-15-06, 05:04 PM not too many, theyre going to be increments of 1-2 lvl 1s
terrainmonkey
08-15-06, 05:16 PM with a druid and two wizards in the party, i would make the cleric 5th level. that gives him staying power, and a few extra cool spells you can use as buffs for the warrior types. 2 2nd level warriors as body guards should also do the trick. you want this to be a tough fight, this ensures it. you have to understand the concept of tactical options. the players have 6 per round, you have 1 or 3 depending. your average warrior, even 2nd level is going to have maybe 12 hit points at best. fighters can do this much damage at 1st level in one hit, no problem. i'm assuming your party fighter types have +6 to hit, and +4 to damage which would be an average AC of 16+ and damage of 8-10/hit. even at 5th level, your cleric is only going to have 30 hp or so, if you use the averages. this is 3 hits and dead. you also don't want him to get affected by sleep, so that's why i would say make him 5th. this makes him immune to that particular spell. also, lower level effects from things like color spray etc, make him more able to survive.

if the party seems to be getting whipped by the fight, have the two warriors drop. then, cleric gets surrounded and it's all over anyway. then, just have him surrender. if they are good heroes they are honor bound to accept his surrender and then later he can get away somehow. that's up to you to decide.

adventuring is a tough business, make it tough on the PCs. they'll thank you later, i'm sure.
Tiefling_Warlock
08-15-06, 06:41 PM I'm going to take this a different way and say level 5 or 6. See in my mind a BBEG is a reccuring villan thus "Big". So if he is going to be recurring he has to be higher than them, by a lot. So when the players fight him, you give him a disatvantage, like he has used up all his spells or a lot of them. He runs and boom! You have a reason for him to hate them, thus reccuring, and they want top finish him. Or if it's just for one dungeon and not reccuring, 3 and 1 would work but 2 and 2 probly is better.
Orbb_was_railed_by_God
08-15-06, 07:49 PM Assuming you have a lone 3rd level cleric, he will get butchered.

Giving a reasonable set of stats:

Str 16
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 14

3D8+6 (18hps) HD

AC: 20 (+8 full plate, +2 large shield)

He will have an attack bonus of: +7 (+3 Str, +2 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Masterwork weapon)

A first level fighter will have +6 (+4 str, +1 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus)

He is going to be flanked to hell if he enters melee. I don't think a cleric casting a small array of 2nd-level and lower spells is going to hold up 6 people. 18 hit points won't go far with 2 mages magic-missiling him (2D4+2 a round will destroy him) while the fighters go in for the kill.

I would recommend a bodyguard of two level 2 Adepts or something like that, poorly armoured, for support.
EldonG
08-15-06, 08:17 PM Hmmm...a typical party of 4 1st levels could probably slam a 3rd level cleric in one round...with initiative. Man, so much depends on luck, at 1st level...initiative...the fighter (and *everybody* else) could simply miss on their first round...or they could do 50 points of damage to an AC 20.

I depends a lot on the characters in question, and the players. How experienced are they? How powerful are the PCs? (trust me, they vary...a lot. Darn few fighters are equal...even at 1st level. I can get +9 on AoOs, 5x a round, at 1st level...)

In general, I'd say 1 3rd level with a 2nd level warrior flunkie...or 2 1st levels...maybe more, if the party is competent. For 6 PCs...maybe more.
Mandarbgrim
08-15-06, 10:38 PM I would second the idea of having the Cleric be higher lvl. Exhausting some of his spells was a good idea. Another may be to include "Cultists" or the like as fodder. They could serve as a good distraction and minimize the risk of initiative rolls while being no real threat. You could also have the Cleric being involved in a lengthy "Spell" or ceremony as the party enters and he attempts to finish it. Summoning something or raising something from the dead.
Feriin
08-15-06, 11:38 PM Assuming you have a lone 3rd level cleric, he will get butchered.

Giving a reasonable set of stats:

Str 16
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 14

3D8+6 (18hps) HD

AC: 20 (+8 full plate, +2 large shield)

He will have an attack bonus of: +7 (+3 Str, +2 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Masterwork weapon)

A first level fighter will have +6 (+4 str, +1 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus)

He is going to be flanked to hell if he enters melee. I don't think a cleric casting a small array of 2nd-level and lower spells is going to hold up 6 people. 18 hit points won't go far with 2 mages magic-missiling him (2D4+2 a round will destroy him) while the fighters go in for the kill.

I would recommend a bodyguard of two level 2 Adepts or something like that, poorly armoured, for support.

He should have 23 Hp not 18, always maximize first level, it's only fair for the BBEG.

Also I am thinking the lone 3rd level cleric will get ripped a new one in short fashion here. Give him a 2 level 1 Clerics and 2 level 1 Fighters, if he sees them die out he runs, he either glotes(sp) or helps his minions out from a "safe, yet easily escapable" location.
Nephlite
08-16-06, 12:09 AM Also I am thinking the lone 3rd level cleric will get ripped a new one in short fashion here. Give him a 2 level 1 Clerics and 2 level 1 Fighters, if he sees them die out he runs, he either glotes(sp) or helps his minions out from a "safe, yet easily escapable" location.

(1 level 2=) clerics CR 2 + (2 level 1=)CR 2=CR 4 + CR 3 Boss = CR 5 or 6 (always forget how it works).

I'd lower fighters to Warriors and Cleric to Adepts.

Level 3 Boss Cleric + 2 level 1 warriors + 1 level 2 adept is a far better.
(1 level 2=) adept CR 1 + (2 level 1=) warriors CR 1=CR 2 + CR 3 Boss = CR 4 1/2.

If Boss fears Magic Missile give him a 1/3 charged Booch of Shielding (if ever kill him get it), but he will run if his minions killed (assuming you don't want him to die).

Give him buffs and debuffs.
0rtg level: Resistance, virtue, and guidance could be cast on allies (minions) for a boost.
1st level: Bless, bane, cause fear (awesome on warriors, makes them do nothing important for 1d4rounds, doom (weakens a dude),
If you are just buffing sancturary is awesome.
2nd level: Shatter can shatter any 1 weapon (if non-magical).

If have plant domain entangle is a good spell (assuming some plants nearby).

Have a window or secret passage he can get through; Like a pit slide he will slide to safety (they could follow, but than you'll get a surprise round so dangerous).

Booch of Shielding is not remember from DMG can handle 100 mms before destrioyed so have him have one with 33 (to represent he has foughty before), Just because he has it does'nt mean he won't fear magic missile (he can only block so many).
runestar
08-16-06, 07:51 AM Give the cleric a bodyguard or 2 so he can cast buffs first before entering combat. :) I expect he will cast a hold person or 2, maybe a silence spell, then bless before entering combat... :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pinkbunny 08-15-06, 10:16 AM	im a bit of a noob DM and i was wondring if a 3rd level cleric and 1st level warrior are an appropriate boss fight for them. we have a druid, fighter, rogue, 2 wizards, and a samurai. Thanks in advance
Archmage Atrus 08-15-06, 10:27 AM	I'd make it a level 2 warrior. And it depends entirely on how well you play that Cleric. But it should be ok. Edit: Actually, I'd make it 2 level 2 warriors to compensate for the greater numbers. This should make hte EL close to 4. Edit 2: It also depends entirely on how many fights there are before the BBEG. I forget I'm the "One fight a session" type DM. If they've been going through a dungeon and using up a lot of resources before they get to this guy, stick to the Cleric 3 and Warrior 2. And you might consider getting rid of the Warrior 2 if they're particularly beat up/out of spells by this point.
pinkbunny 08-15-06, 10:33 AM	there will be a good amount of sneaking and killing of minions worshipping before the boss fight. ill make it a lvl 2 warrior, and if he overpowers the party ill make him hold back a bit more. He is a plot devise to save the cleric.
kliate 08-15-06, 10:34 AM	With some clever group tactics, they should be able to defeat the cleric - but - This is a dangerous encounter for them. The Cleric probably has better attacks, AC, hit points and the like than anyone currently in the group. The party should have an option to retreat if things get ugly. The biggest problem the party has is its shortage of healing. The druid is a good healer - don't get that wrong - but five other party members may be begging for his/her services after the encounter. You can help them with this weakness by providing a partially charged wand or scrolls of Cure Light Wounds. The Druid will be able to make good use of these, and the Rogue may as well depending on whether he/she took skill ranks in Use Magic Device. My advice therefore is to go for it.
pinkbunny 08-15-06, 10:45 AM	if things go sour ive got the army closing in behind them, complete with cleric
Dux_is_me 08-15-06, 10:51 AM	Six level 1 characters... well, nothing. Because of the higher numbers (thus, more staying power) they should be able to take on a level 4 encounter (and suffer some casualties). A level 3 cleric could be coupled with a level 1 fighter (or 2 level 1 warriors) for an encounter level 4. But meh, those are just numbers. Hardly very useful. Anyway, 2 level 1 fighters make for a tougher fight. Add a level 2 fighter instead and it may just be too difficult. Again, those are just numbers. Nothing a few fudges can't solve.
pinkbunny 08-15-06, 11:01 AM	i was thinking a lvl 2 might be too much
Ilthorin 08-15-06, 11:14 AM	Honestly it comes down to what spells the cleric has memorized. The Fighter and the Samurai should be able to take on the 2nd level fighter as long as his AC isn't too high. That would leave your rogue, 2 wizards and a druid along with its animal companion to take on the cleric. Or even one of the wizards backing up the fighters. Really it's a question of what the cleric has memorized for spells and how many rounds he will have to buff himself and the fighter. But even with a solid selection of Buffs and Attacks the party should be able to handle it.
Sapp 08-15-06, 11:26 AM	Yes, it definitely depends on the spells. Forget the fact that the cleric is CR 3. It also depends on the environment as well. Is it a standard wood/stone surface floor? How large is the room? Are places for the rogue to hide before the fight? etc.
pinkbunny 08-15-06, 11:49 AM	the cleric will have many inflict spells, the room will be poorly lit with a good number of pillars, the cleric will be busy at the start , and the fighter will be halfheartedly standing watch, if the rogue can sneak in he will get a chance to sneak attack in the suprise round
Pegasos989 08-15-06, 12:07 PM	Way it will go: Let's see... If the cleric uses inflicts and warrior does 1d8+1, they both drop one character per 4 rounds on average. Nice low level bossfight, but doable. Alternative: Warrior crits 2d8+2, the party loses primary tank on first round. They are screwed. Alternative 2: 2 wizards both cast sleep, Cleric has about 50-50 that he will fail on atleast 1, warrior has 60% on each one, battle is over in one round. It really can go any way you can think of...
Gladi 08-15-06, 12:18 PM	the cleric will have many inflict spells, the room will be poorly lit with a good number of pillars, the cleric will be busy at the start , and the fighter will be halfheartedly standing watch, if the rogue can sneak in he will get a chance to sneak attack in the suprise round Bright day Well they seem to have quite a chance. The party hitters will have Attack around +4? They would need at least 12 to hit with high probability. Plus they can flank which will make rogue happy. On the other hand, with inflict moderate wounds you can kill any of your players with few rolls... I would say, make encounters strong enough and in need cheat; unless you pre-agreed with players on "cannons to the left of them, cannons to the right of them".
Gottwick 08-15-06, 12:25 PM	This is a fair fight. Just watch the environment. Two wizards can deliver 28 pts of damage in 4 rounds on average (4 magic missiles each, x3.5 dmg each). Color Spray and Sleep are options. If the conditions are in favor of the party, they have full resources and are prepared, this will be a cake walk for them.
pinkbunny 08-15-06, 01:19 PM	the good bit is that they have 3-4 encounters with low lvl minions to tease spells out of em
Gladi 08-15-06, 04:29 PM	the good bit is that they have 3-4 encounters with low lvl minions to tease spells out of em Be cautious with this, nobody likes to sit around while party is fighting BBEG.
pinkbunny 08-15-06, 05:04 PM	not too many, theyre going to be increments of 1-2 lvl 1s
terrainmonkey 08-15-06, 05:16 PM	with a druid and two wizards in the party, i would make the cleric 5th level. that gives him staying power, and a few extra cool spells you can use as buffs for the warrior types. 2 2nd level warriors as body guards should also do the trick. you want this to be a tough fight, this ensures it. you have to understand the concept of tactical options. the players have 6 per round, you have 1 or 3 depending. your average warrior, even 2nd level is going to have maybe 12 hit points at best. fighters can do this much damage at 1st level in one hit, no problem. i'm assuming your party fighter types have +6 to hit, and +4 to damage which would be an average AC of 16+ and damage of 8-10/hit. even at 5th level, your cleric is only going to have 30 hp or so, if you use the averages. this is 3 hits and dead. you also don't want him to get affected by sleep, so that's why i would say make him 5th. this makes him immune to that particular spell. also, lower level effects from things like color spray etc, make him more able to survive. if the party seems to be getting whipped by the fight, have the two warriors drop. then, cleric gets surrounded and it's all over anyway. then, just have him surrender. if they are good heroes they are honor bound to accept his surrender and then later he can get away somehow. that's up to you to decide. adventuring is a tough business, make it tough on the PCs. they'll thank you later, i'm sure.
Tiefling_Warlock 08-15-06, 06:41 PM	I'm going to take this a different way and say level 5 or 6. See in my mind a BBEG is a reccuring villan thus "Big". So if he is going to be recurring he has to be higher than them, by a lot. So when the players fight him, you give him a disatvantage, like he has used up all his spells or a lot of them. He runs and boom! You have a reason for him to hate them, thus reccuring, and they want top finish him. Or if it's just for one dungeon and not reccuring, 3 and 1 would work but 2 and 2 probly is better.
Orbb_was_railed_by_God 08-15-06, 07:49 PM	Assuming you have a lone 3rd level cleric, he will get butchered. Giving a reasonable set of stats: Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 14 3D8+6 (18hps) HD AC: 20 (+8 full plate, +2 large shield) He will have an attack bonus of: +7 (+3 Str, +2 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Masterwork weapon) A first level fighter will have +6 (+4 str, +1 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus) He is going to be flanked to hell if he enters melee. I don't think a cleric casting a small array of 2nd-level and lower spells is going to hold up 6 people. 18 hit points won't go far with 2 mages magic-missiling him (2D4+2 a round will destroy him) while the fighters go in for the kill. I would recommend a bodyguard of two level 2 Adepts or something like that, poorly armoured, for support.
EldonG 08-15-06, 08:17 PM	Hmmm...a typical party of 4 1st levels could probably slam a 3rd level cleric in one round...with initiative. Man, so much depends on luck, at 1st level...initiative...the fighter (and everybody else) could simply miss on their first round...or they could do 50 points of damage to an AC 20. I depends a lot on the characters in question, and the players. How experienced are they? How powerful are the PCs? (trust me, they vary...a lot. Darn few fighters are equal...even at 1st level. I can get +9 on AoOs, 5x a round, at 1st level...) In general, I'd say 1 3rd level with a 2nd level warrior flunkie...or 2 1st levels...maybe more, if the party is competent. For 6 PCs...maybe more.
Mandarbgrim 08-15-06, 10:38 PM	I would second the idea of having the Cleric be higher lvl. Exhausting some of his spells was a good idea. Another may be to include "Cultists" or the like as fodder. They could serve as a good distraction and minimize the risk of initiative rolls while being no real threat. You could also have the Cleric being involved in a lengthy "Spell" or ceremony as the party enters and he attempts to finish it. Summoning something or raising something from the dead.
Feriin 08-15-06, 11:38 PM	Assuming you have a lone 3rd level cleric, he will get butchered. Giving a reasonable set of stats: Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 14 3D8+6 (18hps) HD AC: 20 (+8 full plate, +2 large shield) He will have an attack bonus of: +7 (+3 Str, +2 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Masterwork weapon) A first level fighter will have +6 (+4 str, +1 BAB, +1 Weapon Focus) He is going to be flanked to hell if he enters melee. I don't think a cleric casting a small array of 2nd-level and lower spells is going to hold up 6 people. 18 hit points won't go far with 2 mages magic-missiling him (2D4+2 a round will destroy him) while the fighters go in for the kill. I would recommend a bodyguard of two level 2 Adepts or something like that, poorly armoured, for support. He should have 23 Hp not 18, always maximize first level, it's only fair for the BBEG. Also I am thinking the lone 3rd level cleric will get ripped a new one in short fashion here. Give him a 2 level 1 Clerics and 2 level 1 Fighters, if he sees them die out he runs, he either glotes(sp) or helps his minions out from a "safe, yet easily escapable" location.
Nephlite 08-16-06, 12:09 AM	Also I am thinking the lone 3rd level cleric will get ripped a new one in short fashion here. Give him a 2 level 1 Clerics and 2 level 1 Fighters, if he sees them die out he runs, he either glotes(sp) or helps his minions out from a "safe, yet easily escapable" location. (1 level 2=) clerics CR 2 + (2 level 1=)CR 2=CR 4 + CR 3 Boss = CR 5 or 6 (always forget how it works). I'd lower fighters to Warriors and Cleric to Adepts. Level 3 Boss Cleric + 2 level 1 warriors + 1 level 2 adept is a far better. (1 level 2=) adept CR 1 + (2 level 1=) warriors CR 1=CR 2 + CR 3 Boss = CR 4 1/2. If Boss fears Magic Missile give him a 1/3 charged Booch of Shielding (if ever kill him get it), but he will run if his minions killed (assuming you don't want him to die). Give him buffs and debuffs. 0rtg level: Resistance, virtue, and guidance could be cast on allies (minions) for a boost. 1st level: Bless, bane, cause fear (awesome on warriors, makes them do nothing important for 1d4rounds, doom (weakens a dude), If you are just buffing sancturary is awesome. 2nd level: Shatter can shatter any 1 weapon (if non-magical). If have plant domain entangle is a good spell (assuming some plants nearby). Have a window or secret passage he can get through; Like a pit slide he will slide to safety (they could follow, but than you'll get a surprise round so dangerous). Booch of Shielding is not remember from DMG can handle 100 mms before destrioyed so have him have one with 33 (to represent he has foughty before), Just because he has it does'nt mean he won't fear magic missile (he can only block so many).
runestar 08-16-06, 07:51 AM	Give the cleric a bodyguard or 2 so he can cast buffs first before entering combat. :) I expect he will cast a hold person or 2, maybe a silence spell, then bless before entering combat... :P