Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oompa 03-12-07, 03:14 PM	One of my players died, he doesnt wish to be resurrected and wants to start a new character.. We didnt had the chance to roll new stats and now he ask's me if he can roll alone, it isnt that i dont thrust him, but more the other players wont thrust it.. So i thought.. Point buy :) So what is the right point buy, if the others have 4d6 drop the lowest, or should he roll?
Krusk 03-12-07, 03:26 PM	If the others rolled, so should he. Unless you want to let everyone else roll for their stats from no on on any new characters created. I would say 30~ point buy would be equal to a 4d6drop lowest.
Rillek_Denar 03-12-07, 03:31 PM	My players damn near staged a coup when I suggested point buy, although I hear other groups are more open to it. But if your players won't trust him, and no one else did point buy, rolling again in front of the group seems a good option. Or you could just tell him to use the same stats his dead character used. You know they're legit, and so do the other players...
Oompa 03-12-07, 03:44 PM	Well, they trust me so.. My party likes both.. they like rolling for the randomness and point buy for there optimization, creating there own.. 30 points.. Quick question.. do you add you're race modifier first or last?
Rillek_Denar 03-12-07, 03:46 PM	According to the PH, races and their modifiers are chosen after rolling ability scores, but before assigning them.
Maxxim 03-12-07, 03:55 PM	If they trust you, and he does as well, why not roll yourself and provide the numbers to him? I personally prefer point buy, but I don't know if I'd like one person in the group doing one way while everyone else did another (whether I was that person or not).
DarkNick 03-12-07, 04:01 PM	Just get him to roll stats in front of you - like turn up 30 minutes before the next game to complete his character...or get him to drop in one day before the game... its not that difficult it is? :thinks:
Zicka 03-12-07, 04:50 PM	roll
Onikani 03-12-07, 05:22 PM	roll Way to read beyond the title. :rolleyes: @the OP I do have to agree with the others, unless you are switching the whole game over to point buy, just have the dude roll in front of you. Or you roll them and tell him: these are your stats. Supposedly, the numerical average of a 4d6 roll is around 29 points in a point buy. But for some reason you still tend to get better results by rolling, so i would suggest a 32 point buy if he is the only one who has to roll. After all points are spent, the last thing you do is assign racial mods, just like if you had rolled them.
CharlieRock 03-12-07, 05:25 PM	My players damn near staged a coup when I suggested point buy, I know exactly where your coming from. :cool:
evilviper77 03-12-07, 05:26 PM	Quick question.. do you add you're race modifier first or last? When using point buy, apply the modifiers AFTER you make your stats. With rolling it doesn't matter.
Artector 03-12-07, 05:34 PM	If you really feel like attempting to have it be balanced, then take the other players stats and figure out their values in point buy, then give him the average of that. Or give him the stats of his old character, that'd work fine.
Voran 03-12-07, 06:28 PM	In terms of balance, a point buy would be a better bet. Even though a 4d6 has a chance of giving you really good scores, you can still end up with trash. I'd suggest looking at the stat totals for the rest of the party and see if they match an equivalent point buy system, and give the new guy something around that.
Daydreamer 03-12-07, 06:35 PM	point buy all the way, look at your average pc stats of the ones left and assign him a point amount to equal that.
StevenO 03-12-07, 07:22 PM	Use point buy with a value around 29. The beauty of point buy is that it make character creation an easy task that can be done away from the table but then checked quickly to make sure it is accurate. When rolling stats you probably take longer to get your stats and decide what goes where as you never know quite what your are going to get; an player experienced with PB usually has little trouble assigning stats for the character they want to play as they already know what the stats will be.
Krusk 03-12-07, 07:56 PM	Quick question.. do you add you're race modifier first or last? You add your racial modifier after you have chosen your point scores. so ti is possible to have a 20 in a stat if your half orc.
Edymnion 03-12-07, 08:33 PM	Point Buy, at about 28-30 points to replicate 4d6 drop lowest.
Millennium 03-12-07, 09:27 PM	On average, 4d6-drop-lowest has a slight edge over the standard 25-point buy: it tends to be more like 28 points, and it is of course possible to roll even better. However, it's also possible to roll worse. 25-point buy is a bit weaker, but there's no risk of doing worse than 25 points. It's a trade-off.
ciryx2k 03-12-07, 09:28 PM	I know exactly where your coming from. :cool: Yeah, I want to switch to point buy next time I run, but I'm honestly afraid of what might happen. The game I'm currently running, I did the 4d6 drop lowest method and watched the rolls (I know they're not lying). There are two people in our group that I swear are 400% Irish or something. One of them got 18, 18, 15, 14, 12, 9. The other got 18, 17, 16, 14, 12, 11. I just sat there staring at them in disbelief. To obtain these stats with point buy, you'd have to have 45 and 52 points respectively. Most of the others are between 25 and 32 points with their stats. I mentioned that these two guys might be a little overpowered, just hinting that a reroll might be needed just for balanced. WOW was that a mistake. One said that it was unfair and the other followed with, "If this game is going to be based on everyone being the same, I'm leaving." He went on to suggest that they might as well all play commoners with straight 10s for stats. I can only imagine the reaction if I said, "Okay guys, this time you've got a 25 point buy for stats."
Chrono Nexus 03-12-07, 09:41 PM	I don't like how point buy punishes specialization. Specialization has merits and drawbacks in it's own rights, no need to further punish a player for fulfilling their character concept. Than again, I also dislike how rolled abilities always seem higher than they should be, all of the time. There is NO way that a 4d6 drop is equivalent to a 28 pt buy, not by a long shot. I prefer to use an array of ability stats. 18, 16, 12, 11, 10, 9 Or 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10
Millennium 03-12-07, 09:49 PM	Than again, I also dislike how rolled abilities always seem higher than they should be, all of the time. There is NO way that a 4d6 drop is equivalent to a 28 pt buy, not by a long shot. Really? Have you run the numbers? Mine showed a tendency toward 28 points over time.
Chrono Nexus 03-13-07, 08:24 AM	Really? Have you run the numbers? Mine showed a tendency toward 28 points over time. Yeah, I've run the numbers. I've had players roll terribly and godly. Neither of which is really acceptable to me. Averages mean little, as on average, the average is only rolled 3-4% of the time.
LCD2YOU 03-13-07, 08:28 AM	If you are going to do a Point Buy, I suggest using 32 for points. At those points, all characters start off more or less on equal ground. The MAD characters get use of the overlapping stats while the SAD characters are still not able to by points and be a god. Below 32 points, the difference between a character that has to have only 2 or 3 relatively high stats vs the mad with 5 or 6 (I include Intelligence for a Paladin) is too great.
Enderlaand 03-13-07, 09:23 AM	A lot of people are telling you to do the point buy. Having recently made a character using that system, let me tell you it's a nightmare. We ended up with a wizard with 18 Int, 11 Con and 10 everything else. Not very well rounded character. I wanted to play an elven druid, and I had a really hard time deciding where to put my points. With the dice, you get what you get and you have to live with it. I find the point buy more stressful. All of that aside. He should use the same method as all the other characters in your game, unless you're ruling that point buy is the new way it's going to work from now on. Simple as that. If he rolled his stats without you before, he can do it again. If the other players don't trust him, your game is probably doomed anyway. Sorry.
Millennium 03-13-07, 09:26 AM	Yeah, I've run the numbers. I've had players roll terribly and godly. Neither of which is really acceptable to me. Averages mean little, as on average, the average is only rolled 3-4% of the time. When paired with standard deviation, however, it becomes much clearer, thanks to the wonders of normal distribution. Some 60% of 4d6-drop-lowest rolls are equivalent to between 25 and 31 points, with the average being 28 points. Or, to put it another way, 80% of 4d6-drop-lowest rolls will be at least as good as a 25-point buy, and 50% will be at least as good as a 28-point buy. If you've had lucky rollers then you've had lucky rollers -that kind of thing happens when you only roll new characters a couple of times a year- but it doesn't change the overarching math. The monsters in the Monster Manual are not an even match for the average 4d6-drop-lowest character: statwise they're actually one standard deviation below the mean. The PCs have a slight edge, and that's by design.
kelvinaw273 03-13-07, 09:54 AM	I live by point buy. It means your players can go away with their splat books (that you have OKed, obviously) and make up their characters in your absence and all you have to do is check their math and approve them. Not for me the vagaries of dice rolls, or the waste of valuable playing time trying to rationalise a character ... A 32 point buy will give you a reasonable spread if people are used to 4d6 drop-the-lowest (the maths is frightening because you have the drop the set if no score above 14 stuff as well), especially if you dissallow reducing any score bellow 8 and apply racial bonuses after buying stats.
Zumarai 03-13-07, 10:02 AM	The reason I now dig point buy, is because I foolishly let my players roll 5d6 drop the lowest two for their ability scores in my current campaign. Well, one player had a 40 PB equivalent, and another player had a 67 PB equivalent. So, instead of taking away from the scores that the 67 PB player rolled honestly and "fairly" in front of everyone, we, the 67 PB player and myself, decided it was "balancing" to bring the other 3 players in the campaign up to a 67 PB. We all agree that it's much better for all the players to have the same amount of points to spread around, whether it's 22, 25, 28, 32, or our outrageous, accidental 67! Next time, 11 Pont Buy, baby!
ppirilla 03-13-07, 11:05 AM	I gave a full mathematical proof of this about a month ago. On average, 4d6 drop 1 gives an equivalent point buy of somewhere between 30 and 31, depending on how you deal with scores below 8. That being said, power of choice >> random chance, so a 28 point buy may be a better balance. Edit: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=795210 if you want all the gory details
Zumarai 03-13-07, 11:16 AM	I gave a full mathematical proof of this about a month ago. On average, 4d6 drop 1 gives an equivalent point buy of somewhere between 30 and 31, It's definitely 29 point something.
CharlieRock 03-13-07, 11:16 AM	Yeah, I want to switch to point buy next time I run, but I'm honestly afraid of what might happen. The game I'm currently running, I did the 4d6 drop lowest method and watched the rolls (I know they're not lying). There are two people in our group that I swear are 400% Irish or something. One of them got 18, 18, 15, 14, 12, 9. The other got 18, 17, 16, 14, 12, 11. I just sat there staring at them in disbelief. To obtain these stats with point buy, you'd have to have 45 and 52 points respectively. Most of the others are between 25 and 32 points with their stats. I mentioned that these two guys might be a little overpowered, just hinting that a reroll might be needed just for balanced. WOW was that a mistake. One said that it was unfair and the other followed with, "If this game is going to be based on everyone being the same, I'm leaving." He went on to suggest that they might as well all play commoners with straight 10s for stats. I can only imagine the reaction if I said, "Okay guys, this time you've got a 25 point buy for stats." Well, everytime I want to start another game I run into this: Me:"Hey, guys. You know that one RPG I have <insert either SAS,BESM, or GURPS>. Wanna play it? We can play sci-fi or super-heroes or anything." Them:" um ... okay" Me:"Great! Here's some character sheets ..." Them:"What do we use to roll stats? 3d6? Me:"Well, actually in this game you get 100 points and you can ..." Them:"Let's play D&D!" More of Them:"Yeah!!" Me:"Oh ... okay."
Zumarai 03-13-07, 11:29 AM	Well, everytime I want to start another game I run into this: Me:"Hey, guys. You know that one RPG I have <insert either SAS,BESM, or GURPS>. Wanna play it? We can play sci-fi or super-heroes or anything." Them:" um ... okay" Me:"Great! Here's some character sheets ..." Them:"What do we use to roll stats? 3d6? Me:"Well, actually in this game you get 100 points and you can ..." Them:"Let's play D&D!" More of Them:"Yeah!!" Me:"Oh ... okay." Right on, and that's when you say we're not using the antiquated "rolling" for ability scores hold-over/sacred cow. We're using point buy.
Tevish Szat 03-13-07, 11:30 AM	i live by rolls. Vastly i prefer as DM to have characters that must deal with an unexpected (at creation) flaw and/or have a strenght that's not built by ramping up one stat at the expense of others. I don't like the fact that, for every benefit acharacter gets in point buy, you have to sacrifice something else. I know its a balance thing, but the "Higher-scores-cost-more" irks more than them being just less likley. When you're rolling, gettign one good or bad score dosn;t make you less likley to get another, or more likley for the opposite. i like it that way. go figure
CharlieRock 03-13-07, 11:34 AM	Right on, and that's when you say we're not using the antiquated "rolling" for ability scores hold-over/sacred cow. We're using point buy. Way to miss the point there, buddy. :P (btw, I also have RIFTS, C&C, Chill, and SWd6 which use dice stats).
Onikani 03-13-07, 11:41 AM	i switched to 30 point buy and my players dealt with it. At first they were like What the... but after a little while they got used to it. Now we'll never go back.
Zumarai 03-13-07, 11:43 AM	Way to miss the point there, buddy. :P No, the whole point is that I got the point.
Wopple 03-13-07, 11:48 AM	If the others rolled, so should he. Unless you want to let everyone else roll for their stats from no on on any new characters created. I would say 30~ point buy would be equal to a 4d6drop lowest. 30.5. But there is also an inconsistancy there. It is 30.5 if you assign scores lower than 8 just a score - 8 level (if you roll a 3, you get -5 "point buy points"). Now, it's hard to quantify that low of a score. Is a -3 or -4 in one stat worth that +1 or 2 in another? Who knows. Rolling gives you the possibility of much greater or worse scores, point buy makes every char the same cookie cutter person. *shrug*
Wopple 03-13-07, 11:50 AM	One of my players died, he doesnt wish to be resurrected and wants to start a new character.. We didnt had the chance to roll new stats and now he ask's me if he can roll alone, it isnt that i dont thrust him, but more the other players wont thrust it.. So i thought.. Point buy :) So what is the right point buy, if the others have 4d6 drop the lowest, or should he roll? What bugs me here is that he specifically asked if he could roll alone. In my group, we all trust eachother enough to let people roll away from the table, but we roll whenever we need to roll, in front or away, whichever. If other players are not comfortable, just have him roll in front of them. Dosen't take too terribly long.
Zumarai 03-13-07, 11:58 AM	point buy makes every char the same cookie cutter person. *shrug* Simply not true.
CharlieRock 03-13-07, 12:37 PM	No, the whole point is that I got the point. HA! :doh:
LCD2YOU 03-13-07, 01:03 PM	Simply not true.Please show us what a 32 point fighter would look like. They can all tend to look the same unless one player wants to put more points into CHA or INT. All characters are STR-DEX-CON-INT-WIS-CHA and 32 points. Fighter 1: 16-16-14-10-10-10 Fighter 2: 16-14-14-13-12-9 Fighter 3: 16-16-16-8-10-8 Mr. Melee Fighter 4: 14-16-14-13-13-8 Fighter 5: 12-16-12-14-14-10 Fighter 6: 14-16-12-14-14-8 The less points you have, the more they all look alike.
Lord342 03-13-07, 01:21 PM	Use the same system that everyone else is using. Having him use a different system is pattently unfair. If everyone else rolled, I don't see any big deal with him rolling alone. If he comes back with all 18s, then you have a problem. But otherwise even if he cheats he won't have more than what he honestly might turn up under your nose (unless he's stupid and puts all 18s, as I said.). At any rate I hate using point buy -as a DM I'd rather have interesting characters, if someone has a 6 they have to deal with it, they might have 2 18s as well. This makes for interesting games. As a player I hate having to make the choice between a character who is sucessful in his roll in the party but uninteresting because he's got a textbook stat spread, or a useless character who's interesting because he put his 18 or 16 or whatever into a non-dependant skill.
kelvinaw273 03-13-07, 01:25 PM	The less points you have, the more they all look alike. And of course, everybody knows that the stats are the key to making a character unique ...:nonono: All I can say is, you must seriously lack imagination. I always use point buy, and I always manage to have unique characters. Cookie Cutter? Never.
Gamili 03-13-07, 01:33 PM	As a player, I much prefer the organic feel of rolling. It helps me feel like the character is alive and there's always the drama of seeing that dice roll a couple ones and a two, but dealing with that sort of gimp is part of the fun. As a DM, I feel I'm responsible for when the Druid rolls up insane stats and the Wizard is more like an NPC. I'm straight point buy as a DM, though my players usually hate me for it. I just can't stand running a campaign for a 60 point god-slayer. I'd much rather run a more realistic 25 for lower powered or 32 for higher powered.
Zumarai 03-13-07, 01:51 PM	And of course, everybody knows that the stats are the key to making a character unique ...:nonono: All I can say is, you must seriously lack imagination. I always use point buy, and I always manage to have unique characters. Cookie Cutter? Never. I'm with you, chief.
Dmitrii 03-13-07, 02:29 PM	As a DM, I feel I'm responsible for when the Druid rolls up insane stats and the Wizard is more like an NPC. I agree. I have one player who - every time I run a new campaign - gets consistently bad rolls. Not bad enough to be unplayable, but far lower than the other two players I have. I converted to point buy with the latest adventure we're on, and nearly got shot for it. However, I enjoy 25 point buy far more than trying to accommodate for some demi-god of a Barbarian. I think you should give them the choice, but the whole group has to agree, and once they've chosen it they take it, good or bad.
Sunic_Flames 03-13-07, 03:05 PM	The lower the point buy value, the more you see the same stats. There is no way around this - fewer variables to work with ensures fewer possible outcomes. As a result, 25 point buy just results in lots of dump statting anything not mechanically important, as well as the same arrangements regarding primary attributes. Even the core books which make some clearly wrong assessments regarding gameplay from a power perspective such as all feats being roughly equal in power to each other (even if one is toughness and the other is say... power attack) ends up suggesting the most mechanically efficent way to distribute a 25 point buy/elite array. (PHB2, I'm looking at you!) Higher values can result in more power but more often result in more rounded characters, even among powergamer players. It's refreshing to see charisma scores above 8 on those that do not mechanically benefit from the stat, for example. As long as their opposition is relatively the same power ratio to the PCs as the default NPCs are to 25 point buy PCs it honestly doesn't matter if the PCs are 25 PB or 75 PB, they can still be suitably challenged by the encounters they face.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 08:08 AM	Please show us what a 32 point fighter would look like. They can all tend to look the same unless one player wants to put more points into CHA or INT. All characters are STR-DEX-CON-INT-WIS-CHA and 32 points. Fighter 1: 16-16-14-10-10-10 Fighter 2: 16-14-14-13-12-9 Fighter 3: 16-16-16-8-10-8 Mr. Melee Fighter 4: 14-16-14-13-13-8 Fighter 5: 12-16-12-14-14-10 Fighter 6: 14-16-12-14-14-8 You just illustrated the point – those are all completely different. And thanks, a few of those I hadn't considered. …And don't forget: 18, 14, 16, 8, 8, 8
Zumarai 03-14-07, 08:11 AM	As long as their opposition is relatively the same power ratio to the PCs as the default NPCs are to 25 point buy PCs it honestly doesn't matter if the PCs are 25 PB or 75 PB, they can still be suitably challenged by the encounters they face. Agreed. The party I'm DMing currently were built with an accidental 67-Point Buy (don't ask) and it's going swimmingly.
CharlieRock 03-14-07, 08:21 AM	built with an accidental 67-Point Buy (don't ask) :whatsthis Oookay ...
Zumarai 03-14-07, 09:12 AM	:whatsthis Oookay ... Are you stalking me? It's okay; I like you too.
CharlieRock 03-14-07, 09:17 AM	Are you stalking me? It's okay; I like you too. I'm after your stash of secret character sheets! :evillaugh (I was going to ask how you accidently have anything in point-buy ,the "I control my stat generation" choice, but you told me not to :P)
Zumarai 03-14-07, 09:19 AM	(I was going to ask how you accidently have anything in point-buy ,the "I control my stat generation" choice, but you told me not to :P) Must you shame it out of me! All right, here goes: The reason I now dig point buy is because I foolishly let my players roll 5d6 drop the lowest two for their ability scores in my current campaign. Well, one player had a 40 PB equivalent, and another player had a 67 PB equivalent. So, instead of taking away from the scores that the 67 PB player rolled honestly and "fairly" in front of everyone, we, the 67 PB player and myself, decided it was "balancing" to bring the other 3 players in the campaign up to a 67 PB. We all agree that it's much better for all the players to have the same amount of points to spread around, whether it's 22, 25, 28, 32, or our outrageous, accidental 67!
LCD2YOU 03-14-07, 09:23 AM	Well, I do the 4d6 drop the lowest. I have turned down playing in two games because they use PB. One DM keeps on trying to convince me that it's better and "more fair". I asked him, "So when we start are we all going to share the same 'To Hit' and 'Save' rolls too? That's fair." He said, "Of course not." So what's the difference between starting off the game with potential discrepancies that will also come to light when the game is started to be played? If one wants the game "fair", then use the same roll for everything, better yet, use a "10" for every action. Therefore everyone knows what they are getting into and plan accordingly. It's fair then.
CharlieRock 03-14-07, 09:26 AM	We all agree that it's much better for all the players to have the same amount of points to spread around, whether it's 22, 25, 28, 32, or our outrageous, accidental 67! I knew a team like that once: http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/c/c0/Super_Friends.jpg :D
Zumarai 03-14-07, 09:32 AM	[QUOTE=LCD2YOU;11763003] I asked him, "So when we start are we all going to share the same 'To Hit' and 'Save' rolls too? That's fair." He said, "Of course not." So what's the difference between starting off the game with potential discrepancies that will also come to light when the game is started to be played?[QUOTE] Those are class based – completely different. …Please stop reaching.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 09:35 AM	I knew a team like that once: http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/c/c0/Super_Friends.jpg :D Ha ha, dig it! It's actually going beautifully. I just have to take into account that they all have an effective LA +3 or something…
LCD2YOU 03-14-07, 09:35 AM	I asked him, "So when we start are we all going to share the same 'To Hit' and 'Save' rolls too? That's fair." He said, "Of course not." So what's the difference between starting off the game with potential discrepancies that will also come to light when the game is started to be played?Those are class based – completely different. …Please stop reaching.Nope. It has nothing to do with classes. As PB is designed to start everyone on the same level field, why not just take it and make everything vanilla? Why do you think PB is used then?
CharlieRock 03-14-07, 09:39 AM	It's actually going beautifully. I just have to take into account that they all have an effective LA +3 or something… And you have no need for chattel-type lower class minions. (I still use regular Orcs on my team, and they're 7th level. Those're just green butts running around the map waiting for someone to kick them.)
Zumarai 03-14-07, 09:41 AM	As PB is designed to start everyone on the same level field, why not just take it and make everything vanilla? W Point Buy isn't vanilla; it's just calibrated. Do you implement a random roll into Monopoly to see who starts with extra cash or free hotels? There is a difference between game "set-up", and "in/during" game.
CharlieRock 03-14-07, 09:44 AM	Do you implement a random roll into Monopoly to see who starts with extra cash or free hotels? No. But we don't allow you to pick your starting countries in Risk ,either.
LCD2YOU 03-14-07, 09:48 AM	Point Buy isn't vanilla; it's just calibrated.So what's wrong with "calibrating" to hit and save rolls as well?Do you implement a random roll into Monopoly to see who starts with extra cash or free hotels?Um, Monopoly is a board game that has one "winner". Everyone starts out the same to see who can win. Are you saying that you start everyone out the same in DnD to see who can "win" as well?There is a difference between game "set-up", and "in/during" game.The set up is as much of the game, the character history, stats, etc. as the game itself. Why not "calibrate" all of it?
Zumarai 03-14-07, 09:53 AM	The set up is as much of the game, the character history, stats, etc. as the game itself. Why not "calibrate" all of it? The second the session actually begins is when you are "playing" the game.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 09:54 AM	Um, Monopoly is a board game that has one "winner". Everyone starts out the same to see who can win. Are you saying that you start everyone out the same in DnD to see who can "win" as well? No, but D&D is still a "game" (despite what some people think), and thus should be as balanced/calibrated as possible.
LCD2YOU 03-14-07, 09:59 AM	The second the session actually begins is when you are "playing" the game.Now you're the one that is actually reaching. It's all part and parcel of the game. Are you saying then that during "down time" the rules and die rolls change as well? Why not?No, but D&D is still a "game" (despite what some people think), and thus should be as balanced/calibrated as possible.And I disagree. The game is full of things that go wrong, like the TPK on a low level group that tried to rob what they believe was a commoner and his wife, on low rolls. So, one person rolls low and the other high all the time. Same dice, different dice, it don't matter. Since PB is to "calibrate" the game so everyone starts out the same, why are you stopping there when there is a real problem in game. Hey play PB all you want, it's your style. I still say PB sucks and it is not useful other than to trick people into thinking "all is fair". Things aren't fair.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 10:05 AM	It's all part and parcel of the game. No it's not. Setting up a Chess board is not playing Chess.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 10:06 AM	I still say PB sucks and it is not useful other than to trick people into thinking "all is fair". Things aren't fair. I just believe in starting on equal footing. What happens once you're actually "playing"…
Sunic_Flames 03-14-07, 10:10 AM	Ha ha, dig it! It's actually going beautifully. I just have to take into account that they all have an effective LA +3 or something… Um... nope? A little examination into it shows that the default NPC elite array is a 25 point buy equilivent, the same as the default starting method for the players. The default NPC standard array, used for generic opponents and monsters (which use 10, 11, 10, 11, 10, 11) is a 15 point buy equilevent, 10 points lower. It can also be read as 40% lower, but let's say 10 points. With this foundation in mind, here's the 'sune's simple guide to balancing any power of campaign. Step 1: Calculate the point buy value of your players. If rolling, calculate the average point buy equilevent value of the party instead. Step 2: Design a replacement NPC elite array that measures out to the above number. Step 3: Design a replacement NPC standard array that measures out to the above number -10. Now a few simple changes on the fly to any published encounters you run (which you should do anyways, to make them better and more suitable to your campaign) and you now have the same balance of power in relative terms even though it is higher in absolute terms. No need for LAs, which just punish the exceptional individuals for being such. As for parties not being balanced with each other... all (wo)men are not created equal. Some people are just better. This is not a competition, sometimes you're the guy with a high stat of 16 beside the guy with a low stat of 15. Sometimes the reverse is true. I personally have been in both of the above situations. Guess what? I still enjoyed myself, and I still got to do plenty of things to make my character useful. The fact that the person to my right is "better" than me is irrelevent because we're on the same team.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 11:25 AM	Um... nope? The designers have stated that for every +5, or +6 I think (ask Nom) worth of bonuses form ability scores above a 25-point buy is worth a LA +1.
LCD2YOU 03-14-07, 11:37 AM	No it's not. Setting up a Chess board is not playing Chess.Again, you bring out a game where by the rules there is only 1 way start off. In DnD there are a myriad of different ways to play, get your character ready, etc. In Monoploy and Chess, you can have anyone setup the game and jump in. A campaign where people are actually building characters for a long term game where there is no "winner", the playing starts when the people take pencil to paper as every decision they do there effects the game as would any roll.I just believe in starting on equal footing. What happens once you're actually "playing"…To me, PB is akin to chewong the food for the player. It assumes that: Everyone is created equal - they're not I don't like PB but if it's not my game, it's not my problem.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 11:51 AM	Again, you bring out a game where by the rules there is only 1 way start off. In DnD there are a myriad of different ways to play, get your character ready, etc. In Monoploy and Chess, you can have anyone setup the game and jump in. A campaign where people are actually building characters for a long term game where there is no "winner", the playing starts when the people take pencil to paper as every decision they do there effects the game as would any roll.To me, PB is akin to chewong the food for the player. It assumes that: Everyone is created equal - they're not I don't like PB but if it's not my game, it's not my problem. We could go on like this all year. Let's just leave it at – you think point buy sucks (as you put it), and I think random ability scores is a revolting, Gygaxian holdover. …I do enjoy our little debates, though.
LCD2YOU 03-14-07, 11:57 AM	We could go on like this all year.Yup.Let's just leave it at – you think point buy sucks (as you put it),Well, yeah.and I think random ability scores is a revolting, Gygaxian holdover.That's right, go for the throat because I'm OLD (or as my 16 year old puts it, "Dad, I hope I never get old like you" - more comments like that and she'll not see 17 :D )…I do enjoy our little debates, though.Well, so do I. Like I've said, the starts game is how the DM wants it. It is up to the players to decide if they want to be in a game like that. Ciao
LCD2YOU 03-14-07, 12:02 PM	Just for S&G: 3d6, straight up: 15 PB 3d6 reroll 1s: 24 PB 4d6, drop lowest die: 28PB 4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest die: 38PB (can be as high as 50PB)
Sunic_Flames 03-14-07, 12:03 PM	The designers have stated that for every +5, or +6 I think (ask Nom) worth of bonuses form ability scores above a 25-point buy is worth a LA +1. And your statement assumes the higher PB value PCs are being pitted against the default 25/15. Which was clearly addressed in the second and subsquent sentences of my post. I also disagree heavily with this statement on its own merits. Is the guy with stats of 18 16 14 12 10 8 (38 PB) really 2-3 levels better than the one with 15 14 13 12 10 8? (25 PB) It means a primary/secondary/tertiary stat +3/+2/+1 higher, resulting in a +1-2/+1/+0-1 increase in the revelent modifier... it is an edge yes, but could barely be considered equal to a single class level's worth of benefits, much less 2-3 of them. And if the stats are being put into the lower 3 priority stats, they aren't affecting character power much, if at all... who cares if the fighter for example has a 10 cha instead of 8, it's not going to make him any stronger... better rounded and with less dump statting yes, but not more powerful. With MAD characters like a monk it'd still make some difference power wise, but still less than the maximization approach. At low levels a character 2-3 levels higher would demolish them even if they had straight 18s due to this nasty thing called "low hit dice". At higher levels starting stats play less of a role in character power, class levels do a better job of this (which is why any LA above 0 is automatically weaker than a standard PHB human, and thus is only worthwhile if aiming for some exotic racial flavor, being not wise from the number crunching viewpoint).
Zumarai 03-14-07, 12:07 PM	That's right, go for the throat because I'm OLD (or as my 16 year old puts it, "Dad, I hope I never get old like you" - more comments like that and she'll not see 17 :D ) I didn't means to come off like I was going for the throat. It was just a jibe at Gary's seemingly "versus" attitude in D&D. I too am probably considered a little OLD on these boards, as I have been playing since 1st edition (Advanced Dungeons&Dragons). Be safe, and beware of devious midgets.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 12:08 PM	Just for S&G: 3d6, straight up: 15 PB 3d6 reroll 1s: 24 PB 4d6, drop lowest die: 28PB 4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest die: 38PB (can be as high as 50PB) Cool – what about 5d6 drop the lowest two?
LCD2YOU 03-14-07, 12:09 PM	I didn't means to come off like I was going for the throat. It was just a jibe at Gary's seemingly "versus" attitude in D&D. I too am probably considered a little OLD on these boards, as I have been playing since 1st edition (Advanced Dungeons&Dragons). Be safe, and beware of devious midgets.Nope, didn't think you were at all. Just poking fun at myself, and my advanced age of, ahem, 43. So no apology needed as I understood what you were saying and I like it.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 12:11 PM	And your statement assumes the higher PB value PCs are being pitted against the default 25/15. Which was clearly addressed in the second and subsquent sentences of my post. I also disagree heavily with this statement on its own merits. Is the guy with stats of 18 16 14 12 10 8 (38 PB) really 2-3 levels better than the one with 15 14 13 12 10 8? (25 PB) It means a primary/secondary/tertiary stat +3/+2/+1 higher, resulting in a +1-2/+1/+0-1 increase in the revelent modifier... it is an edge yes, but could barely be considered equal to a single class level's worth of benefits, much less 2-3 of them. And if the stats are being put into the lower 3 priority stats, they aren't affecting character power much, if at all... who cares if the fighter for example has a 10 cha instead of 8, it's not going to make him any stronger... better rounded and with less dump statting yes, but not more powerful. With MAD characters like a monk it'd still make some difference power wise, but still less than the maximization approach. At low levels a character 2-3 levels higher would demolish them even if they had straight 18s due to this nasty thing called "low hit dice". At higher levels starting stats play less of a role in character power, class levels do a better job of this (which is why any LA above 0 is automatically weaker than a standard PHB human, and thus is only worthwhile if aiming for some exotic racial flavor, being not wise from the number crunching viewpoint). I'm with ya. Believe me, since all of the players in my campaign are an accidental 67-Point Buy, you can bet your little bottom that the major NPC's are too.
LCD2YOU 03-14-07, 12:13 PM	Cool – what about 5d6 drop the lowest two?It's about the same as a 39PB. It could be as high as a 48PB. All results are of course "random" with each number showing up on each die at least once. You don't want to know what 5d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest 2 is.
Zumarai 03-14-07, 12:16 PM	Nope, didn't think you were at all. Just poking fun at myself, and my advanced age of, ahem, 43. Right on, reverse those numbers and that's about where I'm at (starting to creak).
Zumarai 03-14-07, 12:19 PM	It's about the same as a 39PB. It could be as high as a 48PB. All results are of course "random" with each number showing up on each die at least once. You don't want to know what 5d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest 2 is. When my initial three players rolled 5d6 drop the lowest two, the point buy equivalents were: 1.) 40 PB 2.) 52 PB 3.) 67 PB I know – terrifying.
LCD2YOU 03-14-07, 12:31 PM	When my initial three players rolled 5d6 drop the lowest two, the point buy equivalents were: 1.) 40 PB 2.) 52 PB 3.) 67 PB I know – terrifying.In a random fashion, 5d6, reroll 1s (#), drop 2: #1 #2 #3 #4 #5 (2) 2 3 5 6 = 14 (6) 2 3 4 6 (6) = 16 (10) 3 4 5 (5) 2 = 14 (6) 4 5 6 2 3 = 15 (8) 5 6 (4) 3 4 = 15 (8) 6 (3) 2 4 5 = 15 (8) Or a 46 point character. If one were to "place" each roll but have 1-6, reroll 1s, and have 2,3,4,5,6 for the reroll replacements, it could be even worse.
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-14-07, 12:32 PM	To the OP: if your group and players have no problem with mixed then assign a PB but if any of them have an issue I would suggest going with what the group used as a method originally. To Zumarai and the others and their debate: I am bowing out of this one. Too tired this week. :D
Zumarai 03-14-07, 12:35 PM	To Zumarai and the others and their debate: I am bowing out of this one. Too tired this week. :D I know what you mean, I feel like I've just given birth…to ability scores!
kelvinaw273 03-14-07, 02:25 PM	Nope, didn't think you were at all. Just poking fun at myself, and my advanced age of, ahem, 43. So no apology needed as I understood what you were saying and I like it. I am 41. I too started out with random ability scores in the ancient Gygaxian days. In that time I have gone far through the many RPGs in the world, and the ones that were the best all had simple point-buy character creation methods. Point Buy is the best and fairest way of character generation - randomness can come in during play, which is where it belongs. Point Buy enables players to tailor the character that they want, not get left scratching their heads about what kind of character they are goingto have to have. It means that no one player has any inherent advantages over another, or over any NPC any more than any other NPC.
CharlieRock 03-14-07, 02:51 PM	I am 41. I too started out with random ability scores in the ancient Gygaxian days. In that time I have gone far through the many RPGs in the world, and the ones that were the best all had simple point-buy character creation methods. I'd disagree with the entire premise there. The 'best' games were CarWars and BattleTech (which had ,like, no character generation.) :D
danielinthewolvesden 03-14-07, 04:17 PM	"4d6 drop one"= 28- 30 pt buy. But since half the numbers are odd (and an odd number is no good in a non-prime ability) I'd say 30pt buy is slightly better. A compromise would be 29 pts. But some folks just love to roll. Here is how you do it to make everyone happy. They get a choice of "4d6 drop one" (rolled out in front of everyone) or 29 pt buy. If they choose to roll, they fall back to a 27 point buy as a default- in other words, if they do not like their roll s(6, 8, 9, 11, 11, 9) they get 27 pt buy. They have a small chance of getting higher, but no whining about "hopeless characters" either.
StevenO 03-14-07, 07:33 PM	Well, I do the 4d6 drop the lowest. I have turned down playing in two games because they use PB. One DM keeps on trying to convince me that it's better and "more fair". I asked him, "So when we start are we all going to share the same 'To Hit' and 'Save' rolls too? That's fair." He said, "Of course not." So what's the difference between starting off the game with potential discrepancies that will also come to light when the game is started to be played? If one wants the game "fair", then use the same roll for everything, better yet, use a "10" for every action. Therefore everyone knows what they are getting into and plan accordingly. It's fair then. If you wanted it probably WOULD work to have all the players share a single die roll provided metagaming wasn't allowed. Each time a die is rolled that result is used by each character the next time a value from that die is needed; once everyone has used it time for a new set. Imagine a DM rolling a set of dice behind the screen and then using those results for all the players actions for a given turn. It could work. Using the same results of a given die IN GAME can work because that result should change. If you don't by that then everyone could "Take 10" on every roll with the DM just rolling a variable DC. The problem is character creation is done in the PRE-GAME and the results get locked in so any "random" benefits or drawbacks get locked in for good. Early luck carries through the entire game. Perhaps ability scores shouldn't be fixed and instead allowed to fluctuate randomly as a character progresses. Maybe every four level after a character has assigned their stat increase they should add (2d2-3) or similiar to each stat allowing each stat to change randomly over time. Using that a randomly rolled good set could fail over time while a poor set improves.
Steven_Arborosa 03-14-07, 09:47 PM	Because we had some really irregular times to game when my group got together, one of my players decided to roll his on his own. His 15, 15, 18, 17, 14, and 12 were a tad suspicious, though. So now I require it to be rolled in front of me. (Note: I also made him reroll the stats) I like the dice roll as a player and a DM. I like the whole randomness of it, it makes it more fun. As a DM, though, I let them reroll extremely low numbers such as 5, and don't let them have massive 18s unless I see it myself. I can see how the dice rolling can result in min/maxer players, though. One of my players has something like 17 strength, and 10 everything else.
PwnageLlama 03-14-07, 10:31 PM	I decided that point buy is better after my one person in my group rolled really high stats. I ruled that the stats would be shared. He rolled the equivalent of a 43 point buy, and now i have to spend lots of time ramping up the encounters.
LCD2YOU 03-14-07, 10:54 PM	I'd disagree with the entire premise there. The 'best' games were CarWars and BattleTech (which had ,like, no character generation.) :DOne word for you: OGRE
Zumarai 03-15-07, 07:07 AM	I am 41. I too started out with random ability scores in the ancient Gygaxian days. In that time I have gone far through the many RPGs in the world, and the ones that were the best all had simple point-buy character creation methods. Point Buy is the best and fairest way of character generation - randomness can come in during play, which is where it belongs. Point Buy enables players to tailor the character that they want, not get left scratching their heads about what kind of character they are goingto have to have. It means that no one player has any inherent advantages over another, or over any NPC any more than any other NPC. Exactly – point buy enables you to realize the vision of your character; instead of stuffing whatever random scores you rolled into your concept. With rolling there is also the problem of player #1 wants to play a monk and player #2 wants to play a wizard, they both roll and this happens: Player #1: 14, 14, 13, 11, 10 8 Player #2: 18, 17, 17, 15, 13, 11 …Lame. The same goes for rolling for hit points, the guy playing the barbarian keeps rolling nothing above a 4 for his hit points, and the dude playing a paladin can't seem to roll anything under a 7. Those are two of the biggest issues I have with random generation of ability scores and hit points. Hopefully random ability scores and hit points will go the way of the Dodo when 4th edition inevitably arrives.
Nom 03-15-07, 07:09 AM	(1) Calibration: d20 rolls are generally calibrated, because you make lots of them and thus you tend to get an averaging effect. It's why the DMG adds a warning whenever it introduces an optional rule that increases variance. Admittedly, there certainly are situations where too much hinges on a single d20 roll (can you say "save or die"?). (2) Points: As I've played more, I've gone from 30, to 28, to 25. In my experience, 25 points actually does make for a smoother, more balanced game, with CRs that tend to work better. Olshanski_home posted an interesting discussion on Regdar's a while back showing that higher ability totals tend to favour offense over defense, making the game as a whole more "fragile" - PCs are more susceptible to bad luck and have less margin for error when they bite off more than they can chew.
Zumarai 03-15-07, 07:16 AM	(1) Calibration: d20 rolls are generally calibrated, because you make lots of them and thus you tend to get an averaging effect. It's why the DMG adds a warning whenever it introduces an optional rule that increases variance. Admittedly, there certainly are situations where too much hinges on a single d20 roll (can you say "save or die"?). (2) Points: As I've played more, I've gone from 30, to 28, to 25. In my experience, 25 points actually does make for a smoother, more balanced game, with CRs that tend to work better. Olshanski_home posted an interesting discussion on Regdar's a while back showing that higher ability totals tend to favour offense over defense, making the game as a whole more "fragile" - PCs are more susceptible to bad luck and have less margin for error when they bite off more than they can chew. Nom, my man! I was wondering when you would turn up. Can you tell me what is the effective LA of scores beyond 25-point buy?
Nom 03-15-07, 07:39 AM	Can you tell me what is the effective LA of scores beyond 25-point buy?Officially, I have no idea. Back of the envelope calculations suggest that a ~ 35 point 1st level PC is roughly as potent as a 25 point 2nd level PC (thus LA +1) and that a ~ 50 point 1st level PC is roughly as potent as a 25 point 3rd level PC (thus LA +2). Example: 25 points: 16-14-13-10-10-8 35 points: 18-14-14-13-10-8 We've only increased total bonus by 3, but it included +1 in an expensive score. Comparing 2nd to 1st, you might get: +1 BAB, +1 good save, +1 ~4 skills, extra hit die, extra special ability In contrast, what do those three +1 ability bonus increases give you? Str: melee attack, damage, skills, carrying capacity (minor) Dex: ranged attack, AC, Init, Fort save, skills Con: hit points, Fort save Int: skill points, skills, language, spell DC? Wis: skills, Will save, spell DC? Cha: skills, spell DC? A single +1 on Dex, Str or Int can match most of what you get from BAB, saves and skills. And you've boosted two other scores. The only thing really lacking is extra hit points, which fits nicely with my above assertion that increasing ability points tends to increase offensive capability at the expense of defensive.
Zumarai 03-15-07, 08:03 AM	Officially, I have no idea. Back of the envelope calculations suggest that a ~ 35 point 1st level PC is roughly as potent as a 25 point 2nd level PC (thus LA +1) and that a ~ 50 point 1st level PC is roughly as potent as a 25 point 3rd level PC (thus LA +2). Example: 25 points: 16-14-13-10-10-8 35 points: 18-14-14-13-10-8 We've only increased total bonus by 3, but it included +1 in an expensive score. Comparing 2nd to 1st, you might get: +1 BAB, +1 good save, +1 ~4 skills, extra hit die, extra special ability In contrast, what do those three +1 ability bonus increases give you? Str: melee attack, damage, skills, carrying capacity (minor) Dex: ranged attack, AC, Init, Fort save, skills Con: hit points, Fort save Int: skill points, skills, language, spell DC? Wis: skills, Will save, spell DC? Cha: skills, spell DC? A single +1 on Dex, Str or Int can match most of what you get from BAB, saves and skills. And you've boosted two other scores. The only thing really lacking is extra hit points, which fits nicely with my above assertion that increasing ability points tends to increase offensive capability at the expense of defensive. Right on – thanks. The players in my Planescape winded up with 67-point buy (I know, horrifying), and I definitely treat them for ECL/CR purposes as 2 to 3 levels above what they actually are.
ppirilla 03-15-07, 10:47 AM	Just for S&G: 3d6, straight up: 15 PB 3d6 reroll 1s: 24 PB 4d6, drop lowest die: 28PB 4d6, reroll 1s, drop lowest die: 38PB (can be as high as 50PB) How did you get these numbers? I did some in-depth calculations, and my results were much higher on all counts. You aren't necessarily wrong, I'm just curious as to other approaches to the problem.
LCD2YOU 03-15-07, 10:53 AM	How did you get these numbers? I did some in-depth calculations, and my results were much higher on all counts. You aren't necessarily wrong, I'm just curious as to other approaches to the problem.Like this for 3d6: Die #1 #2 #3 1 3 5 = 9 (1) 2 4 6 = 12 (4) 3 5 1 = 9 (1) 4 6 2 = 12 (4) 5 1 3 = 9 (1) 6 2 4 = 12 (4) Total = (15) points I made the following assumptions. 1: Each die when rolled 6 times would give each number 2: No two die will have the same number at the same time 3: The results are scattered. Again for 3d6: Die #1 #2 #3 1 2 5 = 8 (0) 2 3 6 = 11 (3) 3 4 1 = 8 (0) 4 5 2 = 11 (3) 5 6 3 = 14 (6) 6 1 4 = 11 (3) Total = (15) I can get higher but that essentially what I did for all of them.
JusticeZero 03-15-07, 11:01 AM	I've fought over this many times. Here's how I do it now. A certain number of players, which may be everyone, rolls 4d6 best 3. Afterward, we pass the lists of numbers around. They decide which ONE set of rolls they like; from now on, that's the standard array.
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-15-07, 11:09 AM	It still boggles my mind that people get that worked up over stats. :confused:
Zumarai 03-15-07, 11:10 AM	I've fought over this many times. Here's how I do it now. A certain number of players, which may be everyone, rolls 4d6 best 3. Afterward, we pass the lists of numbers around. They decide which ONE set of rolls they like; from now on, that's the standard array. I like that too.
Zumarai 03-15-07, 11:12 AM	It still boggles my mind that people get that worked up over stats. :confused: I thought you were too tired to get involved? Just kidding, it's always good to have Mr Pyke around when having an ability score debate!
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-15-07, 12:59 PM	I thought you were too tired to get involved? Just kidding, it's always good to have Mr Pyke around when having an ability score debate! Thanks, its nice to feel wanted.
Nom 03-15-07, 10:46 PM	It still boggles my mind that people get that worked up over stats. :confused:A +2 bonus to Str is in almost all ways better than a +1 weapon, and it's stackable. Relative to the rest of the game, these bonuses can be quite large quite easily. But does that matter? Consider a game where we each contribute $10 to each of 20 piles, thus 20 piles of $20. In version 1, you roll a d20 for each pile. If you roll 10 or more, you win that pile. Otherwise I do. This version is obviously to your advantage. Now let's consider the same game, but if you roll 12 or more you win the pile. It's only a +2 difference, 10%, but the game has suddenly swung from a winning proposition for you to a losing proposition. You'd only play the second if you (1) didn't mind losing money, (2) figured you could consistently "beat the odds" or (3) planned to cheat. Ultimately, this discussion is the same as whether Weapon Focus or Spell Focus should grant a +1 or a +2. Over the course of a game and many samples, it has a measurable effect. You might not care about "game balance", but the game is designed to give the PCs a slight edge and a decent margin for error. Move too far away from that and it becomes either too easy or too deadly. Admittedly, the game sometimes fails dismally, but extrapolating from there to "why bother?" makes as much sense as saying "we can't stop all crime so we should just give it free reign". Note also that there are two different balance concerns. One is PC vs PC, where one tries to avoid some PCs eclipsing others. The other is PC vs game. Rolling multiple arrays and then using the best for all PCs generally avoids any player feeling hard done by but forces the DM to recalibrate the rest of the game to provide "appropriate" challenges.
twad 03-15-07, 10:59 PM	I say and always will say: Point buy - Its more fair this way for everyone, and they can manipulate their build the way they want. Specialist? No prob. Versatility? No prob. With random rolls three things can happen: - The player roll "low", he will have a harder time doing what he want to do (access to less stuff, harder to succeed), and chances are the DM will ask him to re-roll, pretty much killing the point of rolling dices. - The player roll "High" , he will shine more than the some other (less lucky) player just because he have better stats and thus succeed more often, and have access to more stuff. - You are never too sure if your gonna have good enough stats for your needs. But there is also another option. "Fixed stat" The players have six numbers they place where they want.. like 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18...
Sigst 03-16-07, 04:14 AM	Like this for 3d6: Die #1 #2 #3 1 3 5 = 9 (1) 2 4 6 = 12 (4) 3 5 1 = 9 (1) 4 6 2 = 12 (4) 5 1 3 = 9 (1) 6 2 4 = 12 (4) Total = (15) points I made the following assumptions. 1: Each die when rolled 6 times would give each number 2: No two die will have the same number at the same time 3: The results are scattered. Again for 3d6: Die #1 #2 #3 1 2 5 = 8 (0) 2 3 6 = 11 (3) 3 4 1 = 8 (0) 4 5 2 = 11 (3) 5 6 3 = 14 (6) 6 1 4 = 11 (3) Total = (15) I can get higher but that essentially what I did for all of them. Your analysis is almost right, but your examples left out the very high (higher than 14) or very low (lower than 8) scores which can turn up in a 3d6 roll-up. 3d6 straight up is roughly equivalent to a 16-point buy on average (although very few rolls will bring you the average.) The exact average is 16.11111111. (I have assumed here that a score below 8 is a negative on point buy, 7 is -1 points, 6 is -2 points and so on.) To explain why the average is 16 and not the 15 an average (10,10,10,11,11,11) is equivalent to, remember that raising a stat from 14 to 15 or from 15 to 16 costs two points, while raising it from 16 to 17 or 17 to 18 costs three points. It is the possibility of rolling these high scores which pushes the average up. Full details for the math freaks: Score Points Probability 3 -5 1 4 -4 3 5 -3 6 6 -2 10 7 -1 15 8 0 21 9 1 25 10 2 27 11 3 27 12 4 25 13 5 21 14 6 15 15 8 10 16 10 6 17 13 3 18 16 1 Take the weighted average of column 2 with column three as the weights and you find that each score has a mean of 2.68518518... This is the average number of points expected for one score. The average number of points expected for all six scores is 2.68518518... x 6 = 16.1111111.... Sig PS: The average point equivalent for the standard 4d6-drop lowest is 28.527777777.... (this is forgetting the PH rule that you may reroll if your scores are "too low") PPS: The average point equivalent for the high powered 5d6-drop two lowest is 38.04166666666666....
Pyke_Moonshadow 03-16-07, 07:42 AM	Note also that there are two different balance concerns. One is PC vs PC, where one tries to avoid some PCs eclipsing others. The other is PC vs game. I agree with you here. There are 2 game balance issues. 1. Do players feel the need to compete? and 2. Is the DM competent enough to handle PCs of different levels? Luckily in my games the answers are no and yes.
LCD2YOU 03-16-07, 07:51 AM	Your analysis is almost right,I don't think you get points back for negatives. If you have a stat that is a 6, it is 0 points to buy. Does anyone know the official answer to that? You are correct that I purposely kept the dice not having the same number on any of them. Here's another: #1#2#3 1 2 3 = 6 (0) 2 3 4 = 9 (1) 3 4 5 = 12 (4) 4 5 6 = 15 (8) 5 6 1 = 12 (4) 6 1 2 = 9 (1) So that one is 18 or 16 depending on the ruling points with 3d6.
Ack 03-16-07, 08:40 AM	Okay, I'm trying to figure how "4d6 drop the lowest" gives a PB equivalent of 28 to 29. I've done the math (actually, a few years ago, I fed every single possible permutation into a spreadsheet and brute-forced a result) and came up with an average roll of 12.24. Spread over 6 rolls, that comes to an average of 12,12,12,13,12,(12 or 13). Thus, the most probable spread is in the region of PB 25-26. [Note that this does not take any sort of re-rolls into account.] You can get number spreads farther from the norm, but these come up less often, as you can see below. Under this rolling regime, getting a natural 3 has just one chance in 1296, while you will get a natural 18 once every 60 rolls (that is, once per 10 sets of stats you roll up). The full figures: Result % chance of this or higher 3 100 4 99.92 5 99.61 6 98.84 7 97.22 8 94.29 9 89.51 10 82.48 11 73.07 12 61.65 13 48.77 14 35.49 15 23.15 16 13.04 17 5.79 18 1.62 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/Zapmaster/statgraph.jpg
Chrono Nexus 03-16-07, 08:52 AM	I don't think you get points back for negatives. If you have a stat that is a 6, it is 0 points to buy. I disagree, every program I have that I can use Point Buy to generate stats allows stat dumping. But even if the dump stat is 3, you still only receive a 1/1 addition to your spendable points. Does anyone know the official answer to that? My word is the law! LAW! I'm so sure as to have to change my world view if it works in any other way.:)
LCD2YOU 03-16-07, 09:50 AM	My word is the law! LAW!Groan. You too? Wow. There's a lot of people like that on this board but what they forget is: My word is the LAW! In my own mind it seems only to be. What I say goes Right out the window. I am he who must be obeyed Hey, stop laughing at me! It hurts my delicate feelings. I'm the TOP DOG around here. But I've been neutered.
Hugin 03-16-07, 10:59 AM	Okay, I'm trying to figure how "4d6 drop the lowest" gives a PB equivalent of 28 to 29. I've done the math (actually, a few years ago, I fed every single possible permutation into a spreadsheet and brute-forced a result) and came up with an average roll of 12.24. I don't know how the math works, but from the experience of rolling and recording near-countless sets and their point buy totals, an average of 28-30 sounds about right. I think the reason for it is that the chances of a high score is quite good and they cost quite a bit more. We found it difficult to roll no more than the 28 point buy that I had set as the upper limit (before racial adjustments). If you just take what the average roll works out to be you get a much lower point buy. Having an array of scores in a set will increase the point buy cost due to the one or more high scores. I hope I'm explaining this correctly, but basically an above average score costs much more. The method we use now to help out this problem is to roll 3d6 of one colour and a single d6 of a different colour. The single different coloured d6 MUST be used, while the lowest die from the group of 3d6 may be dropped. This makes very interesting score arrays.
Sigst 03-16-07, 12:03 PM	Okay, I'm trying to figure how "4d6 drop the lowest" gives a PB equivalent of 28 to 29. I've done the math (actually, a few years ago, I fed every single possible permutation into a spreadsheet and brute-forced a result) and came up with an average roll of 12.24. Spread over 6 rolls, that comes to an average of 12,12,12,13,12,(12 or 13). Thus, the most probable spread is in the region of PB 25-26. [Note that this does not take any sort of re-rolls into account.] You can get number spreads farther from the norm, but these come up less often, as you can see below. Under this rolling regime, getting a natural 3 has just one chance in 1296, while you will get a natural 18 once every 60 rolls (that is, once per 10 sets of stats you roll up). The full figures: Result % chance of this or higher 3 100 4 99.92 5 99.61 6 98.84 7 97.22 8 94.29 9 89.51 10 82.48 11 73.07 12 61.65 13 48.77 14 35.49 15 23.15 16 13.04 17 5.79 18 1.62 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/Zapmaster/statgraph.jpg Your analysis neglects the fact that scores of 15 or higher cost more than one point per raise. You first took the average score (which is 12.24 as you correctly point out), and then calculated the points. In other words, you calculated the point equivalent of the average. What you need to do is calculate the average of the point equivalent. OK, full calculation. First multiply the points for each score (ranges from -5 to 16, on the left) with the probability (on the right): -5 x 1 +-4 x 4 +-3 x 10 + -2 x 21 + -1 x 38 + 0 x 62 + 1 x 91 + 2 x 122 + 3 x 148 + 4 x 167 + 5 x 172 + 6 x 160 + 8 x 131 + 10 x 94 + 13 x 54 + 16 x 21 SUM = 6162 SUM/1296 = 4.7546296296296.... (this is the mean number of points per score) 4.75462963 x 6 = 28.5277777777.... (this is the mean number of points for all six scores) Sig
Ack 03-16-07, 12:51 PM	Hmm.. now I see where I failed to make that mental leap. Thanks.
Hugin 03-16-07, 01:15 PM	Excellent breakdown, Sigst! That is exactly what I was trying to say but You nailed it mathmatically. :tiphat:
kelvinaw273 03-16-07, 01:24 PM	I'd disagree with the entire premise there. The 'best' games were CarWars and BattleTech (which had ,like, no character generation.) :D I should have qualified Role-Playing Games.
Nom 03-16-07, 06:51 PM	I have only two things to add to Sigst's post: (1) This is why pedants get angsty about statements like "the average american family has 2.3 children" (what they actually mean is "american families have an average of 2.3 children", which is mathematically a very different statement). (2) The mean value is actually higher than 28.5, because of the "hopeless character" reroll. This winnows the tail of the distribution, thus pushing the mean up. Most analyses put the result at close to 30.
The_sleeper1 03-16-07, 07:20 PM	The way I am doing stats I have 3 sets of stats with 2 stats in each entry. You pick 1 set from each stat block and get the 2 stats that relates to. Highest score set chose one set only: 1- 18, 8 2- 17, 10 3- 16, 13 4- 15, 15 Mid numbers set chose one: A- 18, 7 B- 17, 9 C- 16, 12 D- 15, 13 Average number set chose one: W- 17, 8 X- 16, 11 Y- 15, 12 Z- 14, 14 If a character were to pick 1, C & Z they would have 18, 16, 14, 14, 12 & 8 as their stats. Picking higher stats gives you lower stats at the same time. You don’t discard any the numbers you pick are the numbers you get no taking points from a dice to get a different one. Adjust for race after you pick your stats. For this I also give +1 LA, if you wanted to tone it down I would sudgest reduceing all numbers in the second and third groups by one and to tone it down a lot reduce those 2 groups by 2. I like it because it gives characters a choice how they want to play and makes it simple for construction.
JusticeZero 03-20-07, 07:02 AM	I've said it before, i'll say it again. "Arthur, Becky, Carl, roll 4d6 best 3 six times. Now, everybody look over those three sets of rolls, and decide which one of them is going to be the party's standard array." Completely fair, yet still totally unpredictable from party to party.
yrogerg 03-20-07, 07:55 AM	So what's wrong with "calibrating" to hit and save rolls as well? Just to point out, BAB and base saves *are* for the most part calibrated against class abilities, hit dice and skill points. D20 BESM, as much as it isn't my favorite game, does a decent job at pulling the BAB/Base Save/Class Ability balance out from behind the curtain.
JustinA 03-20-07, 11:31 AM	I would say 30~ point buy would be equal to a 4d6drop lowest. This is not correct. For a full explanation: http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html Otherwise, a 24 point buy is equivalent to the elite array. And the elite array is statistically equivalent to 4d6-drop lowest. WotC knew what they were doing when they set the standard point-buy to 25 points. Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net
kelvinaw273 03-20-07, 12:07 PM	I would disagree that more than 25 point buy constitutes a leap in character level. It really depends how you place the extra points. If you place them as a specialist (ie spend the extra points pushing your 16 to an 18) then this is not an unreasonable assumption. However, most characters I have played and most parties I have played in use the extra points to expand sideways rather than up, giving their character more multi-classing possibilities rather than outright power, or better MAD adjustment. Now multi-classing tends to reduce offensive power rather than increase it, so compensating for the "increased fragility" mentioned above.
Zumarai 03-20-07, 12:12 PM	Otherwise, a 24 point buy is equivalent to the elite array. And the elite array is statistically equivalent to 4d6-drop lowest. WotC knew what they were doing when they set the standard point-buy to 25 points. The Elite Array is exactly a 25-Point Buy. I believe the general consensus is that 4d6 drop the lowest two is equal to 29.something.
Hugin 03-20-07, 01:50 PM	Otherwise, a 24 point buy is equivalent to the elite array. And the elite array is statistically equivalent to 4d6-drop lowest. I agree with what you've said with this small exception. Take a look at Sigst's post above to see how 4d6-drop lowest is closer to a 28-29 point buy. Again, both myself and my players have tested this almost beyond count and can therefore confirm this in practice. The problem with using a straight average is that not all numbers are worth the same value, in that each numbered step is not an increased value of 1. Therefore you must first find an average incremental worth for each of the numbers (when in normal math it is assumed to always be 1).
LCD2YOU 03-20-07, 01:56 PM	Here's something that is bound to cause "controversy". For the MAD classes, Paladin and perhaps the Monk, give them 3 extra points in a Point Buy for <25 PB game and 2 for a 28 point game. At 32 points, they are no longer at a disadvantage. I believe very strongly that a Paladin and to a lesser extent the Monk, are hosed when dealing with "low value equal points". Though the Paladin has things that stack together, they don't stack that much when you consider that a Paladin is a Front Line Warrior and more. Take these extra points away randomly from a Paladin that falls or a Monk that is no longer lawful to prevent those who would abuse the system.
JustinA 03-20-07, 01:56 PM	I also disagree heavily with this statement on its own merits. Is the guy with stats of 18 16 14 12 10 8 (38 PB) really 2-3 levels better than the one with 15 14 13 12 10 8? (25 PB) It means a primary/secondary/tertiary stat +3/+2/+1 higher, resulting in a +1-2/+1/+0-1 increase in the revelent modifier... it is an edge yes, but could barely be considered equal to a single class level's worth of benefits, much less 2-3 of them. I'm trying to figure out your math here: 18 16 14 12 10 8 = +4, +3, +2, +1, +0, -1 = +9 15 14 13 12 10 8 = +2, +2, +1, +1, +0, -1 = +6 That's a +3 difference. That's not even falling into the range that's being asserted as a LA +1 adjustment. But it probably is. Just compare the top three stats there for a couple different classes in the mid-level range. Let's say 8th level: FIGHTER We'll place the three highest stats in Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity. The fighter with the higher stats is 7th level (with an LA +1). He gets a +2 bonus to his melee attacks, a +1 bonus to ranged attacks, 7 extra hit points, a +1 bonus to AC, and a +1 bonus to Reflex saves. The other guy is 8th level. He gets a +1 bonus to all attacks, 5.5 extra hit points (average), a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves, 2 skill points, and a bonus feat. So the guy with higher stats, even compensating for the LA +1 adjustment, has a bigger bonus to attacks, more hit points, and a bonus to his AC. The only advantage that the guy with lower stats (and the higher level) gets is a bonus feat. The LA adjustment seems to be pretty solid here. WIZARD We'll put the stats in Intelligence, Constitution, and Dexterity. The 7th level wizard with the high ability scores gets a bonus 3rd level spell, a bonus 4th level spell, 7 extra hit points, a +1 bonus to AC, 14 skill points, and a +1 bonus to Reflex saves. The 8th level wizard with lower ability scores gets a 3rd level spell, a 4th level spell, 2.5 hit points, a +1 bonus to Will saves, and 4 skill points. Again, the LA adjustment seems justified. This is why I would go with an LA adjustment based on total bonus above the elite array, rather than trying to base it on point buy: Points can be spent in lots of different (and even subpar) ways.
JustinA 03-20-07, 02:41 PM	The Elite Array is exactly a 25-Point Buy. Huh. I copy-and-pasted that and still didn't notice I'd typoed. Excellent case-in-point for why you shouldn't depend on yourself to proofread your own material. ;) I believe the general consensus is that 4d6 drop the lowest two is equal to 29.something. The problem is that the logic being used is flawed. The basic llogic goes something like this: Go here (http://klubkev.org/~ksulliva/ralph/dnd-stats.html) for the probability of each result from 3-18 on a 4d6-drop-lowest method. You can treat the probability as "how many times this result will happen if you roll the dice 100 times". So, multiply that by the cost in points, total them, and then divide by 100: For the scores 3-8, the cost is 0. So, from there: 09: 7.0 x 1 = 7 points 10: 9.4 x 2 = 18.8 points 11: 11.4 x 3 = 34.2 points 12: 12.9 x 4 = 51.6 points 13: 13.3 x 5 = 66.5 points 14: 12.3 x 6 = 73.8 points 15: 10.1 x 8 = 80.8 points 16: 7.3 x 10 = 73 points 17: 4.2 x 13 = 54.6 points 18: 1.6 x 16 = 25.6 points Total: 485.9 points Average Cost Per Roll: 4.859 Cost for Six Attributes = 4.859 x 6 = 29 points But this isn't accurate for a couple of reasons: First, it ignores the effects of the "reroll lame characters" part of the rule. It also ignores the fact that the non-symmetrical nature of the point costs renders an "average cost per roll" analysis almost meaningless. Specifically, the problem here is that actually rolling the dice can result in characters who have ability scores lower than seven. In the point buy system, there's no adjustment for this: If you just blindly take the preceding mathematical analysis as gospel, you're ignoring the fact that your point buy characters are happily ignoring the lower ability scores that 4d6-drop-lowest characters may suffer from. The common adjustment for this is to mirror image costs: 8 = 0 points 7 = -1 points 6 = -2 points 5 = -3 points 4 = -4 points 3 = -5 points But this is not, in fact, accurate and still distorts the reality. This is demonstrated by the discussion of monster ability score adjustments on page 172-173 of the DMG. If you wanted to get an accurate picture, you would mirror image based on the probability of the result. You would never want to use such a system to actually build characters, because you quickly realize that you're more likely to roll any score below 7 as you are to get an 18. I could break that analysis down (you also need to adjust for in-game performance differences in addition to the proability of the result), but it's time-consuming. You're better off looking at the typical results of the method, which is -- in fact -- identical to the elite array (if you follow D&D rounding rules). And the elite array is built on 25 points.
kelvinaw273 03-20-07, 03:13 PM	Here's something that is bound to cause "controversy". For the MAD classes, Paladin and perhaps the Monk, give them 3 extra points in a Point Buy for <25 PB game and 2 for a 28 point game. At 32 points, they are no longer at a disadvantage. I believe very strongly that a Paladin and to a lesser extent the Monk, are hosed when dealing with "low value equal points". Though the Paladin has things that stack together, they don't stack that much when you consider that a Paladin is a Front Line Warrior and more. Take these extra points away randomly from a Paladin that falls or a Monk that is no longer lawful to prevent those who would abuse the system. Possibly. How about giving characters a +1 or 2 bonus in their Primary statistics after generation? So ... Barbarian = Str OR Con Bard = Int + Cha Cleric = Wis Druid = Wis Fighter = Str Monk = Dex + Wis Paladin = Str + Cha Ranger = Dex + Wis Rogue = Dex OR Int Sorcerer = Cha Wizard = Int Some of the classes have variable options for what you would want, but only the Bard, Monk, Paladin and Ranger are truly MAD generalists that lose out to the specialists.
Kilsek of Sheverash 03-20-07, 03:34 PM	I no longer use dice nor do point buy. I give the players a "point pool" of 79 total ability score points, assign as desired, no repeat initial scores. And done. It's fast, easy to remember, and the power level comes out equivalent to high-powered campaign point buy or 4d6 method or a ~+8 total bonus from ability scores. Plenty of room for some customization and min-maxing, but the subtle but sweet no repeat initial scores rule staves off just enough munchkinism in the form of no triple-18 style characters and also includes the idea behind point buy where if you loaded up with very high stats, you probably have a few very low ones as well.
Nom 03-20-07, 10:15 PM	Justin, Perhaps a better way of stating it is that "the mean point-buy equivalent point value" is not the same as "the equivalent effective value". A combination of rounding down and less control over allocation means that you don't get full value for those points. The mean bonus of rolling (not the mean point value) is actually around +5, which is less than a "balanced" (vs "focused") character can achieve using 25 points.
RealMad 03-21-07, 12:51 AM	I like rolling but the inherent problem with rolling is not so much the high scores but the low scores. What am I going to do with a player that rolled low? Force him to play it when other players have great stats? I'm not that cruel... Point buy or even straight buy is a much easier option.
Zumarai 03-21-07, 10:46 AM	Point buy or even straight buy is a much easier option. What/where is this "straight buy"?
LCD2YOU 03-21-07, 11:01 AM	What/where is this "straight buy"?I am thinking that means: 3 = -5 4 = -4 5 = -3 6 = -2 7 = -1 8 = 0 9 = 1 10 = 2 11 = 3 12 = 4 13 = 5 14 = 6 15 = 7 16 = 8 17 = 9 18 = 10 Which IMO means MAD characters are even more hosed.
Zumarai 03-21-07, 11:10 AM	I am thinking that means: 3 = -5 4 = -4 5 = -3 6 = -2 7 = -1 8 = 0 9 = 1 10 = 2 11 = 3 12 = 4 13 = 5 14 = 6 15 = 7 16 = 8 17 = 9 18 = 10 Which IMO means MAD characters are even more hosed. What's up, LC. Where did you get that from, and how many points would you start with? I am starting to see your point (bad pun) that MAD characters get a little shafted with 25 Point Buy.
LCD2YOU 03-21-07, 02:04 PM	What's up, LC.In York, PA, land of true excitement. You?Where did you get that from, and how many points would you start with?Need a doctor with a flashlight but this is what I'm guessing. As for points, I'd guess the standard numbers, 25, 28 and 15.I am starting to see your point (bad pun) that MAD characters get a little shafted with 25 Point Buy.Yup.
1CentSage 03-21-07, 05:26 PM	I have to disagree with the people seeing MAD characters at a disadvantage with Point Buy. In fact the opposite is true. Since the cost for ability points increases nonlinearly beyond 14 (providing already a +2 bonus) your total ability bonus will be higher if you distribute your points over several scores instead of maxing out one. While MAD classes need more stats than others they usually also get more out of their bonuses to the "additional" scores (e.g. monk and Wis or Paladin and Cha). So Point Buy actually favors MAD classes since you do not need to go for the really expensive scores thereby getting a larger total bonus and profitting more from such a broad ability distribution than others. The only scenario I can think of where MAD characters are at a disadvantage is when you believe that MAD means a character needs equally high stats as "single ability characters" in multiple abilities. While this would indeed be impossible with point buy it would also be highly unlikely with rolling and imho also missing the point about MAD...
LCD2YOU 03-21-07, 07:14 PM	I have to disagree with the people seeing MAD characters at a disadvantage with Point Buy. In fact the opposite is true. Since the cost for ability points increases nonlinearly beyond 14 (providing already a +2 bonus) your total ability bonus will be higher if you distribute your points over several scores instead of maxing out one. While MAD classes need more stats than others they usually also get more out of their bonuses to the "additional" scores (e.g. monk and Wis or Paladin and Cha). So Point Buy actually favors MAD classes since you do not need to go for the really expensive scores thereby getting a larger total bonus and profitting more from such a broad ability distribution than others. The only scenario I can think of where MAD characters are at a disadvantage is when you believe that MAD means a character needs equally high stats as "single ability characters" in multiple abilities. While this would indeed be impossible with point buy it would also be highly unlikely with rolling and imho also missing the point about MAD...Ok, create a 1st level Fighter and Pally for 25 points and I'll show you how pathetic the Pally is. Oh yes, 150GP to equip them.
Nom 03-21-07, 09:33 PM	Ok, create a 1st level Fighter and Pally for 25 points and I'll show you how pathetic the Pally is.Assuming you plan to evaluate based on raw melee capability, that's a silly comparison. A better comparison would be against a 5th level fighter/cleric hybrid, and maybe throw in a level of bard. Though if you must do a 1st level comparison, the fighter should be a "general" build (as in "commander" or "leader"), not a "bruiser" build. Rangers don't fare as well in a straight up fight as narrowly-focused barbarians, and paladins don't fare as well as narrowly-focused fighters. That's to be expected when you diversify. Admittedly, the paladin doesn't get a lot of love after 5th level or so, but that's not a MAD issue.
Zumarai 03-22-07, 06:35 AM	Admittedly, the paladin doesn't get a lot of love after 5th level or so, but that's not a MAD issue. True, that's just a sad issue.
Zumarai 03-22-07, 06:39 AM	In York, PA, land of true excitement. You? Just chilling at work over here in London (UK). Do you happen to know of any good Point Buy variants where the ability scores start at 0 and you buy points on a 1 for 1 basis or some such?
Leilond 03-22-07, 07:08 AM	Ok, create a 1st level Fighter and Pally for 25 points and I'll show you how pathetic the Pally is. Oh yes, 150GP to equip them. 1st level fighter are USUALLY better than 1st level Paladins... no matter the way you create stats (except you allow insane stats) A bettere "confrontation" can be made between a 5th level fighter and a 5th level Paladin with all the gear they must have at that level... you'll easy see how good can be a paladin at that level Most of all you have to remember that fighters play a TOTALLY different role. Paladins cure, inspire companions, role play his charisma, help clerics in cure and turning the lesser undeads... It is OBVIOUSLY that the fighter is a better melee character, it is supposed to be like that With 25 point buy you create this paladin Str 14 Dex 10 Cos 12 Int 9 Wis 14 Cha 14 That is perfectly fair and playable. No matter how the fighter is better in fighting, because that's the way it must be: the better in fighting must be the fighter; that's the reason of his name: the FIGHTer P.S. We play with 28 point buy, because we like characters with a little "sprint", but the enemies too use the 28 point buy, and the monster from the books gain 1-3 points here and there too
Zumarai 03-22-07, 07:30 AM	1st level fighter are USUALLY better than 1st level Paladins... no matter the way you create stats (except you allow insane stats) A bettere "confrontation" can be made between a 5th level fighter and a 5th level Paladin with all the gear they must have at that level... you'll easy see how good can be a paladin at that level Most of all you have to remember that fighters play a TOTALLY different role. Paladins cure, inspire companions, role play his charisma, help clerics in cure and turning the lesser undeads... It is OBVIOUSLY that the fighter is a better melee character, it is supposed to be like that With 25 point buy you create this paladin Str 14 Dex 10 Cos 12 Int 9 Wis 14 Cha 14 That is perfectly fair and playable. No matter how the fighter is better in fighting, because that's the way it must be: the better in fighting must be the fighter; that's the reason of his name: the FIGHTer Dig it – you've won me back over.
LCD2YOU 03-22-07, 08:38 AM	1st level fighter are USUALLY better than 1st level Paladins... no matter the way you create stats (except you allow insane stats)But I don't think you know just how much better than a Paladin they are.A bettere "confrontation" can be made between a 5th level fighter and a 5th level Paladin with all the gear they must have at that level... you'll easy see how good can be a paladin at that levelOne huge problem. The Paladin must survive to get there. I see you made a mistake here:Most of all you have to remember that fighters play a TOTALLY different role.Really? Even the part that saysthat Paladins can fill in as the front-line party fighter? Paladins are warriors with a lot of extra baggage.Paladins cure,2nd level.inspire companions,3rd(?) level.role play his charisma,With a 9 Int, yup a firm grip on the facts, unless you don't mind a little character metagaming in order to compensate for what is essentially a below average intelligence for a "leader".help clerics in cure and turning the lesser undeads... Again 4th and what, 5th levels(?). They have to live through the lower levels to get there.It is OBVIOUSLY that the fighter is a better melee character, it is supposed to be like thatAgain, just how much is going to surprise you, especially with a character with those stats for a Paladin you presented below.With 25 point buy you create this paladin Str 14GoodDex 10Woww, no Dex bonuses for AC, initiative. I can see that one of the characters first Feats must be Improved Initiative. Also, Paladins don't start off in Plate Armor. So how can they really expect to survive when they "lead from the front"? That is unless you feel that a Paladin can hang back with tthe Rogue or the Wizard and let others fight.Cos 12 Int 9Wow. 9 Int. So a slightly better than a Homer Simpson IQ? Even with them being human, they'll get 8 skill points at first level! Wow. Let's see, everyone thinks a Paladin needs Diplomacy (of coursethis is to use their charisma effectively), Ride (no? what's the Paladin's mount for, looks?), Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge Religion and perhaps little things like Sense Motive and more. So that's 6 Skill sets alone. Wow, Rank 1 in all but a few or Rank 1 in 5 skills and a 3 in the other. Yeah, he knows what he's talking about. Another thing, there's this really great Feat call "Combat Expertise" that fits in very well for a Paladin. Sad thing is that one must have an Int of 13 or greater to use it.Wis 14 Cha 14Two stats that a Fighter can take 10s in and not worry at all about it.That is perfectly fair and playable. No matter how the fighter is better in fighting, because that's the way it must be: the better in fighting must be the fighter; that's the reason of his name: the FIGHTerRe-read your PHB again, especially the part where it talks about how a Paladin is used in the group.P.S. We play with 28 point buy, because we like characters with a little "sprint", but the enemies too use the 28 point buy, and the monster from the books gain 1-3 points here and there tooSo what's wrong with giving a MAD character, one I show will need ALL 6 stats to be up there, 2 more points to make them equivalent. I got to go back to work but I will show that a Paladin, and I'll pull the ref if you don't, is a frontline warrior and have such perfectly miserable stats.
LCD2YOU 03-22-07, 11:03 AM	Quick one while I'm waiting: All stats are Str-Dex-Con-Int-Wis-Cha 25 Point Fighter :16-14-14-8-10-9 25 Point Paladin: 12-14-10-10-13-14 What I think a "25 point Paladin" (28 points) should be: 14-14-10-13-13-14 But when I do my comparissons, I'll use Leilond's 25 point guy.
Zumarai 03-22-07, 11:39 AM	Quick one while I'm waiting: ...To exhale?
Nom 03-22-07, 11:22 PM	One also needs to remember that the 3.5 Paladin was deliberately modified to spread her abilities out over the first three levels; the full effect of the Cha bonus doesn't kick in until level 3. If the goal is to build a single-adventure 1st level bruiser then of course the fighter is going to do better; he's more front loaded and he's not designed to have a range of abilities. It's interesting to compare LCD's sample ability arrays. The fighter is good at direct combat, and will continue to be so. With only a single skill point and -1 to Cha and Int checks he's not going to be overly effective at anything else. The Paladin is good at ranged combat and adequate at melee combat (where adequate = better than most), and even without training is pretty decent at social interaction. Add a couple of levels and she becomes quite robust vs a variety of magical attacks too, while the warrior bolts like a child the first time someone casts a fear effect (or second time if he's lucky). I admit that there are specific problems with the paladin class (example: I'd like to see smite evil apply once per level not once per 5), but dissing a paladin because it can't fight as well as a fighter while still holding down a range of auxilliary abilities is IMO missing the point.
kelvinaw273 03-23-07, 12:00 AM	Lets face it, if the paladin was as good as the fighter at fighting, we wouldn't have fighters at all. They fight, it's what they do, get over it. Look at the fighting classes a moment: Fighter: Design: Whatever you make it, he has the feats and flexibility to do any combat role you shoose to assign to him, except sneak attacker. Preferred Role: Usually meatshield/tank (depending on how good his armour is): He stands at the front and fights things head-on. Ranger: Design: You can generally make him a skirmish-fighter or an archer, with heaps of skills and abilities to help out. Preferred Role: backup fighter/specialist: Your ranger can shoot or help out in melee, but he does not have the armour and hit points to front-rank for long. You;re best as a hit-and-run fighter. Paladin: Design: Bad-ass smiter of evil and protector of the weak. Preferred Role: Front ranker fighter and leader against anything evil. Like the Ranger you are best against specific foes, and only mediocre against the rest. You aren't as good as the fighter at fighting, but you are good enough to stand in with support - a good defensive fighter. Barbarian: Design: Hit 'em hard and fast fighter, with some wilderness skills to make it harder to nail you. Preferred Role: Charge! You are the best offensive fighter of the lot, you charge head on and use rage to hammer the enemy. You have the movement to make it count, and your lack of heavy armour is compensated by your better hit points. Be careful, though, because your lower AC can be the death of you without regular healing. Monk: Design: Esoteric mystic-warrior, you have a wide array of skills and abiltiies. Preferred Role: Mobile reserve. Your mobility is second to none, and you have the saves to stand up to any unnatural attack better than anyone else. Your best position is wherever you are needed most - defend the mage from missile attack by Deflect Missiles, race in to help the rogue and barbarian, hit the enemy wizard when he thinks he is safe, etc. Do not try to fight up-front, because you have neither the hit points, AC or BAB of the other fighting classes. Fight smarter, and use your flurry to good effect.
Hugin 03-23-07, 11:38 AM	Nice summary, kelvinaw273.
Dragonteuthis 03-24-07, 10:48 PM	Supposedly, the numerical average of a 4d6 roll is around 29 points in a point buy. WAY off. 25 point buy is almost identical to 4d6 drop the lowest. What most people "forget" is that they cheat on the rolls, or that they roll multiple times, which skews the statistics.
Hugin 03-25-07, 03:46 PM	What most people "forget" is that they cheat on the rolls, or that they roll mutliple times, which skews the statistics. Isn't it necessary to use a "multiple times" method in determining an average, such as saying a 4d6 drop the lowest 'averages' about x point buy?
StevenO 03-25-07, 09:58 PM	I've seen enough statistical analysis to believe the 4d6 is closest to 28-29 point buy. PB 25 accounts for having fewer odd scores. Alternate rolling methods start shooting the PB equivalent up dramatically; rerolling all 1s and extra dice add a lot to the PB equivalent.
Dragonteuthis 03-25-07, 10:07 PM	Isn't it necessary to use a "multiple times" method in determining an average, such as saying a 4d6 drop the lowest 'averages' about x point buy? Yes, but what I was implying by saying that people roll multiple times (I'm thinking of one player I had in particular; he assumed he could roll until he got a stat set he liked), is that people will only stop when they get a stat set that's well above average. And they forget all the other stat sets they discarded. So in their mind, rolling is better. But statistics doesn't work that way; you can't simply discard results you don't like. That's the detail I left out. This is completely tangential, but since I'm talking about discarding poor sets, I wanted to point out that Mendel made the same mistake. He had crops of pea plants that did poorly or simply died outright. He discarded those results since he figured they were errors. Well that's not how statistics work. Granted, the father of genetics can be excused because he was a monk, not a mathematician, and even if he had been, modern statistics hadn't been fully invented yet. But it just goes to show that not everyone understands how statistics works.
yrogerg 03-25-07, 10:38 PM	I have to disagree with the people seeing MAD characters at a disadvantage with Point Buy. In fact the opposite is true. Since the cost for ability points increases nonlinearly beyond 14 (providing already a +2 bonus) your total ability bonus will be higher if you distribute your points over several scores instead of maxing out one. While MAD classes need more stats than others they usually also get more out of their bonuses to the "additional" scores (e.g. monk and Wis or Paladin and Cha). So Point Buy actually favors MAD classes since you do not need to go for the really expensive scores thereby getting a larger total bonus and profitting more from such a broad ability distribution than others. The only scenario I can think of where MAD characters are at a disadvantage is when you believe that MAD means a character needs equally high stats as "single ability characters" in multiple abilities. While this would indeed be impossible with point buy it would also be highly unlikely with rolling and imho also missing the point about MAD... I'm inclined to agree, in that MAD characters usually benefit more from having okay stats across the board than they do from, say, a handful of Very Good stats and another handful of Very Poor stats. The main advantage of Point Buy over rolling is that it *lets* you make that decision yourself, rather than getting you stuck trying to play a Monk with one stat over 13. Plus, sub-15 stats end up being the most economical in point-buys, as you point out
Steely_Dan 03-26-07, 04:30 AM	I'm inclined to agree, in that MAD characters usually benefit more from having okay stats across the board than they do from, say, a handful of Very Good stats and another handful of Very Poor stats. The main advantage of Point Buy over rolling is that it *lets* you make that decision yourself, rather than getting you stuck trying to play a Monk with one stat over 13. Plus, sub-15 stats end up being the most economical in point-buys, as you point out Yes, a 14 usually gave you no benefit (bonus) in previous editions, but in 3rd edition a 14 rocks. Remember in 1st/2nd edition a 17 Str only gave you +1 to hit and damage?
yrogerg 03-26-07, 08:11 PM	Yes, a 14 usually gave you no benefit (bonus) in previous editions, but in 3rd edition a 14 rocks. Remember in 1st/2nd edition a 17 Str only gave you +1 to hit and damage? Remember how in 2nd edition, your Fighter had a 1 in 100 chance of not sucking?
yrogerg 03-26-07, 08:14 PM	Yes, but what I was implying by saying that people roll multiple times (I'm thinking of one player I had in particular; he assumed he could roll until he got a stat set he liked), is that people will only stop when they get a stat set that's well above average. And they forget all the other stat sets they discarded. So in their mind, rolling is better. But statistics doesn't work that way; you can't simply discard results you don't like. That's the detail I left out. This is completely tangential, but since I'm talking about discarding poor sets, I wanted to point out that Mendel made the same mistake. He had crops of pea plants that did poorly or simply died outright. He discarded those results since he figured they were errors. Well that's not how statistics work. Granted, the father of genetics can be excused because he was a monk, not a mathematician, and even if he had been, modern statistics hadn't been fully invented yet. But it just goes to show that not everyone understands how statistics works. Yeah, it's also been pointed out that his numbers were *too* perfect, given his tiny sample size and the fact that not all of the traits he was looking at were completely unlinked, and that it's likely that he fudged his numbers a bit to make the "demonstration" somewhat more compelling.
valcarde 03-26-07, 08:27 PM	I have someone I game with on a regular basis, who when rolling 4d6 drop lowest: Every single score will be >=14, and this is with multiple characters... very consistently. While this is great for him, sure, it makes the rest of the party seem a little lackluster when no one else has anywhere near the same stats he does, including the Monk, who didn't get a single stat over 13. I went to pointbuy, and will be using it from now on in my games. Keeps things fair out of the gate. Should have heard Mr.LoadedDice complain... "Whine whine whine it's impossible to make a good cleric with a point buy system, I can't be good in everything, waaaa...."
Scipio 03-26-07, 08:57 PM	I usually go with point buy, especially if I'm a player. The reason is that some people just have better or worse luck on rolls, consistently. I've seen one player in my group roll nothing higher than an 11, on 4 characters in a row. I can't remember the last time that I've had an ability below a 15. (these were 4D6 drop the lowest.) Needless to say the other player got pretty bored with the game when I could do anything i wanted, and his character was so pitifully rolled that he was lucky to tie his own shoes.
Hugin 03-27-07, 01:22 PM	The reason is that some people just have better or worse luck on rolls, consistently. How true! That's why my players like me as a DM - I'm notorious for poor luck rolling dice, even my player's dice! (99% are rolled in the open). But OTOH, I've watched players have actual difficulty rolling a 28 PB or less character (I use a 28 PB max). Yes, but what I was implying by saying that people roll multiple times (I'm thinking of one player I had in particular; he assumed he could roll until he got a stat set he liked), is that people will only stop when they get a stat set that's well above average. And they forget all the other stat sets they discarded. So in their mind, rolling is better. But statistics doesn't work that way; you can't simply discard results you don't like. That's the detail I left out. I see what you mean now, but I still remember that we added up all sets to determine the PB score and 25 was definitely on the lower end of the spectrum.
DarkRhystar 03-27-07, 06:40 PM	4d6 or Point Buy? Why not both. Have everyone roll their stats as normal. Determine the Point Buy Value of all the stat arrays. Have everyone redistribute their stats based on the person who got the highest Point Buy Rating. Result: Everyone shares the same risk in rolling. If one person rolls well and everyone else rolls poorly, everyone has rolled well. You have randomness in ability size, but not distribution. Fun fact of the day: The following ability score generation methods all have the same mean score: 24 Point Buy 4d6, Drop the Lowest Roll 3d6, Reroll Ones
Nom 03-27-07, 10:20 PM	4d6 or Point Buy? Why not both. Everyone shares the same risk in rolling. If one person rolls well and everyone else rolls poorly, everyone has rolled well. You have randomness in ability size, but not distribution. Statistically, this will put you at somewhere above 35 points for 4 PCs. The main effect of this method is that the DM must recalibrate his adventure to an unpredictable (but high) power rating. If you want to roll, roll. If you want to PB, PB. Don't develop hybrid methods that combine the worst aspects of both systems. Fun fact of the day: The following ability score generation methods all have the same mean score: 24 Point Buy 4d6, Drop the Lowest Roll 3d6, Reroll Ones Define 'score'. Note: I assume that 3d6 reroll 1s cascades (ie all 1's are always rerolled) and is thus equivalent to 3d5+3. If not (ie 1's are kept on rerolls) then the values below are too high. If you mean raw ability score, 24 PB has a mean of 12, 3d5+3 is 12, and (best 3 of 4)d6 is 12.24. If you mean bonus or point-buy value, then these are not even vaguely equivalent. 24 PB has a higher maximal bonus (+6) than the mean PB bonus (~ +5), yet significantly lower point value (vs ~ 28.5).