Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Delvesdeep 05-10-05, 10:24 PM	If a caster is being attacked by a creature witha 5foot reach and they decide to first take a 5 foot move and then cast they recieve no attacks of opportunity against them. Is this correct? If it is then what's the use of having this rule except for creatures who have a reach of 10 feet or more. Also I stuggle with the whole concentration check thing. Casters seem to rarely have their concentration broken when casting. I believe the check is too low. Anyhow what is your take on all of this? Delvesdeep:b:
Paradisio 05-10-05, 10:30 PM	It's definitly one of the prime uses of the five foot step, on the other hand... it isn't always usable. Which is why I suggest putting lots of things in the room people are battling on, just having an infinite void is unrealistic. Concentration checks, will often be made early on. But when they face multiple AOOs and very powerful creatures, they will think twice. Sure, they may get off the spell, but they probably won't live much longer either, and casters usually attract monster attention.
Nom 05-11-05, 12:21 AM	Note also that the 5 ft. step prohibits all other movement (changing squares) that round. You can 5 ft. step and act. You can move and act but provoke an AoO. Or you can double move but not act (Withdraw). Or you can just act, and risk the AoO. As Paradisio points out, the biggest disadvantage of the 5 ft. step is likely not the AoO. It's that you're now only 10 ft. from a very nasty and quite mad opponent, who is likely to 5 ft. step themself and unleash a full attack. It's the same drawback as a rogue who and full attacks with a sneak attack - if you don't take them down, they may well take you down. As for concentration, make sure you understand the difference between casting defensively (DC 15 + spell level) and making a concentration check against damage (DC 10 + spell level + points of damage dealt) (PH pg 70). With max Spellcraft skill ranks and a +0 Con, consider this comparison of DC (highest level spell) vs level.Lvl SC DC Chance 1 4 16 45% 2 5 16 50% 3 6 17 50% 5 8 18 55% 7 10 19 60% 9 12 20 65% 11 14 21 70% 13 16 22 75% 15 18 23 80% 17 20 24 85% 19 22 24 95%By 20th level, an otherwise unmodified caster should be able to reliably cast most spells without provoking an AoO or failing the spell. In contrast, a first level caster can do it less than 50% of the time, so needs to be a lot more careful. However, that only applies for casting defensively. If you're actually hit during casting (via AoO or readied action) then you are likely to face a much higher DC - anyone waiting to hit a caster will typically do more than 5 points of expected damage.
Fixxxer 05-11-05, 12:24 AM	If a caster is being attacked by a creature witha 5foot reach and they decide to first take a 5 foot move and then cast they recieve no attacks of opportunity against them. Is this correct? If it is then what's the use of having this rule except for creatures who have a reach of 10 feet or more. I think you're missing one of the key issues with the 5ft step rule. You can't take any other movement during the round at all (before or after the 5ft step). Thus, you can't take a 5ft step away from a fighter, then cast a spell, then use your move-equivilent action to move further away. You just have to deal with the fact that on his turn, the fighter is going to take a 5ft step to close with you and use his full attack action to tear you a new ass. Also I stuggle with the whole concentration check thing. Casters seem to rarely have their concentration broken when casting. I believe the check is too low. Well, it's not much different from any of the other skills that the other classes generally specialize in. A ranger with maxed out Survival ranks is almost always going to be able to hunt up a meal for the entire party. A paladin with maxed out Diplomacy will generally succeed in talking the party into our out of a place. A cleric with maxed ranks in Knowledge (religion) will almost always be able to indentify any undead the party runs across (as a free action, no less). As a result, a wizard with maxed Concentration ranks is generally going to be able to pull off a defensive casting.
Dash Branaghan 05-11-05, 12:44 AM	Let's not forget something else rather vital here...if your dealing with an opponent with reach or a reach weapon, or your five foot step doesn't clear you out of enemies (in other words, your five foot step still has you in melee), you will still draw an AoO from casting. The only person you won't draw an AoO from is the guy who was five feet from you, assuming he/she/it doesn't have reach. Dash
Vaelan 05-11-05, 01:22 AM	A flanked spellcaster cannot 5-foot step out of both flankers' threatened areas. Also, archers work wonders. Rogue archers... with Greater Manyshot... and Hide in Plain Sight...
Leobardis 05-11-05, 04:14 AM	Also don't forget, if you're faceing an opponent with only 5' of reach, yes you can take a 5 foot step to avoid AoO, but you can also take a full move action and do the same, and you'll be farther away. Possibily even behind the party fighter.
Enaloindir 05-11-05, 04:53 AM	Also don't forget, if you're faceing an opponent with only 5' of reach, yes you can take a 5 foot step to avoid AoO, but you can also take a full move action and do the same, and you'll be farther away. Possibily even behind the party fighter. But you'll suffer an AoO for exiting a threatened square... Of course, it might be better to just take that AoO and cast your spells from safety afterwards: this way, your casting can't get disrupted... Enaloindir
MortalPlague 05-11-05, 05:00 AM	On a related note, if you're 10 feet away from someone with a 10 foot reach weapon, you can five foot step inside their reach without provoking the AoO, correct? Or is my understanding of this flawed? This came up in game today, and it took a bit of rulebook digging, but I think I've figured it out.
Enaloindir 05-11-05, 05:06 AM	On a related note, if you're 10 feet away from someone with a 10 foot reach weapon, you can five foot step inside their reach without provoking the AoO, correct? Or is my understanding of this flawed? You're absolutely correct...provided your opponent does not have any means of threatening adjacent squares (spiked chain, spiked gauntlets,...) Enaloindir
MortalPlague 05-11-05, 05:33 AM	You're absolutely correct...provided your opponent does not have any means of threatening adjacent squares (spiked chain, spiked gauntlets,...) I'm just glad to have the whole issue settled. It came up mostly because one of our players had the 'standstill' feat (not sure which book it's from). Basically, they can make an AoO with their reach weapon and instead of dealing damage, try to stop their target from moving. They roll damage, and the target has to make a DC 10 + damage roll reflex save or be stopped in their tracks. It's nice to be clear on the whole thing now. It caused quite a few headaches mid-game...
Nom 05-11-05, 08:45 AM	More precisely, you can take a 5 ft. step in any direction and to any adjacent square without provoking an AoO. Note that a 5 ft. step is not the same as a 5 ft. move, and that you can only take a 5 ft. step to a location that is within 5 ft. of movement in a movement mode you possess (PH pg 144). You cannot take a 5 ft. step into difficult terrain or if your movment is impeded by darkness.
Fixxxer 05-11-05, 09:07 AM	A flanked spellcaster cannot 5-foot step out of both flankers' threatened areas. Couldn't he do so if he's being flanked from two opposing diagonal directions and he steps into one of the two open diagonal squares?
Merestil Haye 05-11-05, 09:39 AM	But you'll suffer an AoO for exiting a threatened square... Of course, it might be better to just take that AoO and cast your spells from safety afterwards: this way, your casting can't get disrupted...Not if he is using the Withdraw action, and the only threatened square he occupies in his movement is the one he starts in. He cannot do anything else, of course. Fixxxer : Yes, that works.
dami_capo 05-11-05, 01:25 PM	Myself, i hate the 5-foot-step rule, especially when players who dont know anything say, "Oh, i cant do this? I will just take a 5-foot-step" and when you ask them what it means, they just point at an experienced player and say "he does it..." I think the 5-foot-step makes spellcasters a bit overpowered, but then, when you already moved, you don't have anywhere to 5-foot-step to, or you have an opponent with a 10-foot reach, you will see how the spellcasters and archers start to panic... (and here you are supposed to have an evil grin and laugh sort of like "Mwahahahahhahahahahahha!!!")
Count Arioch the 28th 05-11-05, 01:30 PM	I've found that when the spellcasters need to take 5' steps, they're already at somewhat of a disadvantage.
eRaz0r 05-11-05, 01:54 PM	The 5'step only makes casters more powerful if they're facing a single opponent who they can remove as a threat with one successful spell (or are otherwise unafraid of their full attack). The Spellcaster who is in melee range must decide, Do I .. a) ignore them, I can soak or trust my AC can avoid the damage ( 5' step away to cast a spell that will aid my friends, and risk the full attack from the creature next round) b) Take them out, they're a threat to me (5' step away, or cast defensively within melee, and use a spell on the creature to prevent their full attack option next round - this is risky unless you have the right spell handy) c) Flee - they're too tough for me to take on - so I need to withdraw. In no way is the 5' step more powerful than any other option, because you cannot combine it with any other movement. So you're still right there in melee range after you use it. Casting Defensively can be more useful (provided you've got the skill to use it) if you want to retain mobility. Cast in melee range (defensively to avoid AoO) and then Move away (taking the AoO from movement of course, but keeping the spell). It's all situational - and good tactical sense will tell you what you need to use and when.
Enaloindir 05-11-05, 04:08 PM	Not if he is using the Withdraw action, and the only threatened square he occupies in his movement is the one he starts in. He cannot do anything else, of course. Indeed, but in the considered situation,I was assuming the wizard wanted to actually cast a spell. ;) Enaloindir
snowlynx 05-11-05, 04:34 PM	I don't think the caster's ability to take a 5' step back and cast a spell is any better or worse then the fact that a warrior can take the 5' step and use a full attack. Both things are quite deadly. In combat, I find this usually means the warrior fighting the spellcaster just needs to back them into a situation whereby they can no longer take a 5' step to avoid attacks. If you think concentration is too cheap of an ability, let me introduce you to a cheaper ability: tumble. Both skills are meant to keep someone with low hit points from being too easily skewered.... In the case of the critter with the 10' reach weapon, keep in mind that sometimes the creature may be able to hit anyway (example: monk, who can use feet for an unarmed strike.)
Alchemist17 05-11-05, 07:26 PM	The 5' step is certainly nice, but there are certainly ways around it. The simplest is to have an opponent ready an action against spellcasting. If they haven't moved, there's no reason that they can't use their own 5' move to match the spellcaster's movement and prevent them from avoiding the AoO ...
SwitchUK 05-11-05, 07:39 PM	I'd let it slide - he's only five feet away, and as so many people have pointed out, the next round will probably involve a five-foot step, a full attack, and a healthy reduction in health, unless the spellcaster manages to kill his agressor off. Think of it this way - in real life, a fight is quite fluid. People rarely stay put, especially when the gunfire (or fantasy equivelant, of course) is zipping through the air around them, least of all when something hungry with claws is advancing on them. Think of it in terms of a startled wizard recoiling from a foe he allowed to get too close, and hurriedly intoning a few brisk words of power as he does so, desperate to save his own hide. If you really wanted to be nasty, I guess you could rule a spellcraft check to avoid fumbling the spell in some way - faltering over a syllable, or moving a hand anti-clockwise at the wrong moment in panic. Don't make it too steep though, yeah?
Delvesdeep 05-11-05, 10:12 PM	The 5' step is certainly nice, but there are certainly ways around it. The simplest is to have an opponent ready an action against spellcasting. If they haven't moved, there's no reason that they can't use their own 5' move to match the spellcaster's movement and prevent them from avoiding the AoO ... I like this. Would the creature then gain the OoP plus its full attack? Delvesdeep:b:
Nom 05-11-05, 10:12 PM	a healthy reduction in healthIsn't that an oxymoron? :confused:
snowlynx 05-11-05, 11:06 PM	If you really wanted to be nasty, I guess you could rule a spellcraft check to avoid fumbling the spell in some way - faltering over a syllable, or moving a hand anti-clockwise at the wrong moment in panic. Don't make it too steep though, yeah? That would be a concentration check :D Preferably with a much lower DC then casting defensively.
Leobardis 05-12-05, 01:44 AM	You're absolutely correct...provided your opponent does not have any means of threatening adjacent squares (spiked chain, spiked gauntlets,...) Not true, you can always take a 5 ft. step without drawing AoOs, no matter what kind of reach your opponent has. Reference from Pg. 144 of the PHB You can move 5 ft. in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5 ft. step never provokes an AoO.
Vaelan 05-12-05, 04:18 AM	Couldn't he do so if he's being flanked from two opposing diagonal directions and he steps into one of the two open diagonal squares? I noticed that too, but I figured people would understand what I meant without the needless, convoluted explaination.
MarkB 05-12-05, 05:45 AM	The 5' step is certainly nice, but there are certainly ways around it. The simplest is to have an opponent ready an action against spellcasting. If they haven't moved, there's no reason that they can't use their own 5' move to match the spellcaster's movement and prevent them from avoiding the AoO ... True, but if you're standing adjacent to a spellcaster, there aren't all that many situations where it's smarter to ready an action against spellcasting than to just make a full attack now. An obvious alternative, if you've got the weapon and/or feat for it, is to Trip the spellcaster. If they're prone, they can't 5-foot-step, and there's little they can do on their action that won't provoke an AoO from you. There are feats that can help against 5-foot-steps, though I don't recall any in the core books. In Eberron, there's Pursue, which lets you burn an Action Point to move into the vacated space when an adjacent enemy 5-foot-steps. And I found a similar feat in a swashbuckling campaign book which lets you do the same thing with a successful Reflex save.
Enaloindir 05-12-05, 07:35 AM	Not true, you can always take a 5 ft. step without drawing AoOs, no matter what kind of reach your opponent has. Reference from Pg. 144 of the PHB I assumed the poster meant "step inside their reach and cast a spell normally without provoking an AoO". Sadly enough, I was reading too fast :rolleyes: Enaloindir