Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alcari Ambaron 06-12-05, 06:34 AM	i have a few small questions about the 5 foot step. does making a 5ft step out of a threatened area provoke an AoO? and is a 5ft step for a Gargantuan creature still only 5ft? beacuase that would be a minor shuffle of their feet instead of a real step.
Brave Sir Robin 06-12-05, 06:39 AM	It only provoks an AoO if you move nad then do something other than move like cast a spell or attack something.
Neo_Leviathan 06-12-05, 06:52 AM	5ft steps *never* provoke attacks of opportunity.
Brave Sir Robin 06-12-05, 06:58 AM	5ft steps *never* provoke attacks of opportunity. you are correct I misunderstod the question. :P
Neo_Leviathan 06-12-05, 07:09 AM	you are correct I misunderstod the question. :P Hehe, you gotta love it when that happens :D
MinusInnocence 06-12-05, 07:39 AM	and is a 5ft step for a Gargantuan creature still only 5ft? beacuase that would be a minor shuffle of their feet instead of a real step.Yes, it's still only 5ft. To be fair, most Medium people I know don't actually have a five foot stride. That would be pretty amazing.
Liwmial 06-12-05, 10:00 AM	On AoO's, I have a question. One of my players says that moving directly towards or away from an enemy does not provoke an AoO, and I find the rules in the book to be just vague enough to where I cannot disagree. So my question is this. Does moving directly towards or directly away from a character remove the chance for an AoO? (Not using a five foot step, just making sure that when moving in proximity to an enemy, you are facing them.)
prettyripples 06-12-05, 10:24 AM	Does moving directly towards or directly away from a character remove the chance for an AoO? (Not using a five foot step, just making sure that when moving in proximity to an enemy, you are facing them.) 2 things provoke AoOs: moving out of a threatened area, or doing something special in a threatened square (like spellcasting). What you're talking about is leaving a threatened area. This provokes an attack of opportunity, with 2 exceptions: the 5-foot-step, and the Withdraw action. Withdraw is a full-round action which lets you move at twice your normal speed, and ignore AoOs provoked in your starting square. The D&D3.5 rules don't include rules for facing; if you house-rule facing to 'matter', then this is one of the rules that might have changed.
ehrin 06-12-05, 10:25 AM	Liwmial nope.. there is no facing in 3.5, so you can't be facing your opponent. typically, moving into a threatened square doesn't provoke, moving out usually does (that's a gross simplification, of course). so, your players are incorrect.
deadDMwalking 06-12-05, 10:37 AM	i have a few small questions about the 5 foot step. does making a 5ft step out of a threatened area provoke an AoO? and is a 5ft step for a Gargantuan creature still only 5ft? beacuase that would be a minor shuffle of their feet instead of a real step. A "5-ft. Step" never provokes an attack of opportunity. It can be used to leave a threatened area most of the time. A 5' step for large creatures is still only 5'. You provoke an attack of opportunity when you leave a square threatened by an opponent. It doesn't matter if you try to leave away from them (into a space they no longer threaten). The attack of opportunity is resolved before you actually leave the square. You can only make a 5' step when you sacrifice all other movement for the round. So, you can't take a 5' step away from an opponent, and then take a move 30' away. That would be considered a single 35' move (if the creature could move that far) and would provoke an attack of opportunity. A large creature threatens at least two squares around itself, most of the time. You can't approach it with a normal weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity if you use a move action. You can avoid that attack of opportunity by charging. The charge action makes you immune to attacks of opportunity from the creature you're charging as a result of your movement. I hope these responses help to answer your questions.
Baron Von Chaos 06-12-05, 02:26 PM	A "5-ft. Step" never provokes an attack of opportunity. It can be used to leave a threatened area most of the time. Quick question do you provoke an AoO if you 5' step from one threatened square to another?
prettyripples 06-12-05, 02:41 PM	Quick question do you provoke an AoO if you 5' step from one threatened square to another? Quick Answer: No Explanation: as I said earlier, the 2 things you get an AoO for are leaving a threatened square, and doing something distracting in one. So in your question, you 5ft-step out of the square, negating the AoO; and into the next one, which doesn't matter anyway.
Sildatorak 06-12-05, 02:54 PM	and is a 5ft step for a Gargantuan creature still only 5ft? beacuase that would be a minor shuffle of their feet instead of a real step. The technical term is actually 5 foot adjustment. It isn't necessarily one step, it is just an arbitrary amount that constitutes how much you can change your position without opening up holes in your defense.
Alcari Ambaron 06-12-05, 03:17 PM	i just think it's a bit strange that even the largest creature can only move 5-ft in his "5 foot adjustment". that would be equal to shifting your feet half an inch. would changing the 5-ft step to a Half-the-size-of-your-base-rounded-up-step, be unbalancing?
prettyripples 06-12-05, 03:25 PM	i just think it's a bit strange that even the largest creature can only move 5-ft in his "5 foot adjustment". that would be equal to shifting your feet half an inch. would changing the 5-ft step to a Half-the-size-of-your-base-rounded-up-step, be unbalancing? It would certainly be open to abuse. Consider a monster with a 10-ft step, in melee combat with the party's strongmen. Each turn it makes its full attacks, and then takes a 10-ft step backwards. The strongmen have to spend a move action catching up with it, robbing them of their full attacks and thus thoroughly nerfing almost every melee build. On the other hand, if only the DM had access to monsters with a 10-ft step, and absoloutely did not abuse it, it might be tolerable. But then you're basically promising not to use your new rule...
Baron Von Chaos 06-12-05, 03:59 PM	Quick Answer: No Explanation: as I said earlier, the 2 things you get an AoO for are leaving a threatened square, and doing something distracting in one. So in your question, you 5ft-step out of the square, negating the AoO; and into the next one, which doesn't matter anyway. I beleive i worded it wrong, If I am in a threatened square and 5' step to another threatened square I will get an AoO against me correct?
prettyripples 06-12-05, 04:05 PM	I beleive i worded it wrong, If I am in a threatened square and 5' step to another threatened square I will get an AoO against me correct? Actually, that's what I assumed you meant. You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. Perhaps that's the clearest way of putting it.
Baron Von Chaos 06-12-05, 04:08 PM	What you are saying is what i thought it was, my DM nails us with AoO's ALL the time when we 5' step from one threatened square to another and i thought this was a bit much! Thanks this is much helpful :D
primemover003 06-12-05, 04:09 PM	A large creature threatens at least two squares around itself, most of the time. You can't approach it with a normal weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity if you use a move action. You can avoid that attack of opportunity by charging. The charge action makes you immune to attacks of opportunity from the creature you're charging as a result of your movement. This is incorrect. A Charge in and of itself does not draw an AoO, say like a disarm or unarmed attack does. However if you Charge an Ogre It WILL get an AoO when you move through the 10' square to the squares adjecent to it. The Charge does not protect you from AoO's provoked due to movement.
kaeso 06-12-05, 04:44 PM	i know that ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunity, but how? do you have to be in a threatened square? and if not, then who gets teh attack of opportunity against you? and if they are melee fighters, then how can they attack you if you're not in their attack range?
prettyripples 06-12-05, 05:20 PM	I know that ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunity, but how? Do you have to be in a threatened square? If you make a ranged attack in a threatened square, it provokes an AoO by the characters threatening the square. For example, suppose that there were 3 characters, a fighter, a wizard, and an opposing arcane archer; that the fighter engaged the archer in melee, and that the archer then made a ranged attack against the wizard. In this case, the fighter would gain an AoO against the archer (in much the same way as he would have if the archer had cast a spell).
Laethe 06-12-05, 05:24 PM	Ranged attacks only provoke attacks of opportunity by those who threaten you in melee combat. So if you fire your bow at an orc 30 ft away while his orc #2 is standing 5ft away with a sword drawn then Orc #2 gets an Attack of opportunity on you not the orc 30 ft away. Same thing if you try to fire on an enemy standing ajacent to you, he gets an aoo as well.
OamuTheMonk 06-12-05, 05:25 PM	i know that ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunity, but how? do you have to be in a threatened square? and if not, then who gets teh attack of opportunity against you? and if they are melee fighters, then how can they attack you if you're not in their attack range? If you are not in the threatened area of an opponent, he cannot make an AoO against you for making a ranged attack. This is why you make ranged attacks.
Nom 06-12-05, 09:18 PM	Put simply, you potentially provoke an AoO when you move out of a threatened square or perform a "distracting" action. You actually provoke an AoO if an opponent could make a melee attack on you with their currently equipped weapon (ie you are threatened). Table 8-2 lists most of the available actions a character may take. Those marked AoO "Yes" provoke an AoO. Those marked AoO "No" do not inherently provoke an AoO, but may still provoke an AoO if they include something that provokes an AoO, such as a charge moving out of a threatened square or a full attack including ranged attacks. Once you've got the basics, we talk exceptions. There are several ways to avoid provoking an AoO that you normally would. The special 5 ft. step free action allows you to move without provoking an AoO. Spring Attack, Tumble and Withdraw all allow a character to move through threatened squares without provoking certain movement related AoOs. Casting defensively allows you to avoid AoOs for spellcasting, and so on. AoOs can be prevented by cover and concealment as well. If you have cover (any) or total concealment with respect to a threatening opponent, you do not provoke AoOs from them; the rules assume that the cover / concealment allows you to protect yourself and not leave an opening. Characters that cannot attack (stunned, flat-footed, ...) do not threaten and thus cannot make AoOs. As for the 5 ft. step, don't think of it as a single step but as a shuffle or "combat manoeuvering". It may seem a bit odd that a Small creature can drift as far as a Colossal one, but that's partly a balance issue and partly because the game is designed around Small and Medium creatures.
deadDMwalking 06-12-05, 10:55 PM	This is incorrect. A Charge in and of itself does not draw an AoO, say like a disarm or unarmed attack does. However if you Charge an Ogre It WILL get an AoO when you move through the 10' square to the squares adjecent to it. The Charge does not protect you from AoO's provoked due to movement. You know, I realized that just a short while after I posted. It is a house rule that we've been using for a long time, and we like it pretty well. In all honesty, though, I'm getting pretty sick of the tactical part of D&D. It makes it harder to role-play. Every action becomes a carefully defined act, rather than a description. "I 5' step and perform a full attack action against the ogre, using power attack for 5." Rolls dice - performs math. It used to be "I'll try to move to the side of the ogre, and I'll focus all of my energy into the blow. 'Pelor help me!'" Rolls dice - performs math. It isn't too much of a problem, but sometimes it seems it is just harder to get the type of game I'd like.
primemover003 06-12-05, 10:58 PM	Role-play is best before combat begins or outside of it... once you're in the soup kill it quick or run like hell! Granted all XP seems to come from combat encounters your opinion seems quite valid.
Baron Von Chaos 06-13-05, 01:23 PM	Put simply, you potentially provoke an AoO when you move out of a threatened square or perform a "distracting" action. You actually provoke an AoO if an opponent could make a melee attack on you with their currently equipped weapon (ie you are threatened). So If I take a 5' step out of one threatened square to another threatened square AND attack the person i moved to i get an AoO against me?
StylinLP 06-13-05, 02:06 PM	DeadDMwalking your completely right. The new 3.5 rules leaves alot to be desired when it comes to roleplaying in combat. Thats why there is alot of poeple playing d&d 1.0 and 2.0 still. Poeple that don't have a problem with it are the typical that I see playing at conventions and hobby stores for the rpga. Extremely poor gaming but most of those kinds of players are the new younger crowd that grew up on playing Doom and Quake. I remember getting upset what skills did to the game way back when :) You don't need "skills" to roleplay. Geesh. heh
KoboldSlayer 06-13-05, 02:14 PM	So If I take a 5' step out of one threatened square to another threatened square AND attack the person i moved to i get an AoO against me? You never get an attack of opportunity taken against you if the only movement you make within that turn is the 5-foot step. It does not matter what you do before or after that 5-foot step. If that's all you move, no one gets an AoO for the movement. (Now, if you move and then cast a spell, people threatening you when you cast can get AoO on you. But it is because of the spell, not the movement, for example.)
clarkvalentine 06-13-05, 02:16 PM	So If I take a 5' step out of one threatened square to another threatened square AND attack the person i moved to i get an AoO against me? No. Taking a 5 foot step never provokes an AOO.
clarkvalentine 06-13-05, 02:19 PM	i just think it's a bit strange that even the largest creature can only move 5-ft in his "5 foot adjustment". that would be equal to shifting your feet half an inch. would changing the 5-ft step to a Half-the-size-of-your-base-rounded-up-step, be unbalancing? It's not a matter of how far you can move your feet in one stride, it's a matter of how far you can move without dropping your guard. Size doesn't help you there; if anything, it harms.
snowlynx 06-13-05, 02:30 PM	In all honesty, though, I'm getting pretty sick of the tactical part of D&D. It makes it harder to role-play. Every action becomes a carefully defined act, rather than a description. "I 5' step and perform a full attack action against the ogre, using power attack for 5." Rolls dice - performs math. Next game, try using roleplaying instead to describe it, and see what you get. A 5' step around an opponent may be a sidestep to cach the opponent off guard, or the person may be circling the opponent....and hopefully, players will catch on and do it themselves. I've been doing this in my own game, and it seems to work pretty well. I think, when rules are more complicated, it becomes harder to roleplay because people have to pay careful attention to the rules, but a group experienced with the rules can probably work on roleplaying without thinking about the rules too much- since they already know them.
Bruunwald 06-13-05, 04:31 PM	Quick Answer: No Explanation: as I said earlier, the 2 things you get an AoO for are leaving a threatened square, and doing something distracting in one. So in your question, you 5ft-step out of the square, negating the AoO; and into the next one, which doesn't matter anyway. Which actually provides a perfect setup for a point of contention between myself and one of my players: I say that if you 5 ft. step from a threatened square into another threatened square, and then try to cast a spell from there, you are still prone to an AoO for the spellcasting (since you're simply in another threatened square at the time of the casting). He seems to think the 5 ft. step is this catch-all immunity to AoO in general and that the simple act of doing it nullifies any AoO against him. We play it my way, but it stands as a disagreement, still.
clarkvalentine 06-13-05, 05:29 PM	Which actually provides a perfect setup for a point of contention between myself and one of my players: I say that if you 5 ft. step from a threatened square into another threatened square, and then try to cast a spell from there, you are still prone to an AoO for the spellcasting (since you're simply in another threatened square at the time of the casting). He seems to think the 5 ft. step is this catch-all immunity to AoO in general and that the simple act of doing it nullifies any AoO against him. We play it my way, but it stands as a disagreement, still. It doesn't have to stand - you're right.
prettyripples 06-13-05, 05:53 PM	Yeah, what he said. A 5-foot step never causes an AoO. However, it doesn't save you from provoking one with a spell, otherwise what would be the point of AoOs at all? You'd just make a 5-ft step every time and be safe. So indeed, stepping into another threatened square and then casting a spell does provoke 1 attack of opportunity from whoever threatens the second square.
RogerWilco 06-13-05, 06:23 PM	I believe tiny and diminuitive creatures can't take a 5 foot step for free.
Nom 06-13-05, 11:31 PM	So If I take a 5' step out of one threatened square to another threatened square AND attack the person i moved to i get an AoO against me?I say that if you 5 ft. step from a threatened square into another threatened square, and then try to cast a spell from there, you are still prone to an AoO for the spellcasting (since you're simply in another threatened square at the time of the casting). He seems to think the 5 ft. step is this catch-all immunity to AoO in general and that the simple act of doing it nullifies any AoO against him.Both these questions reflect the same misunderstanding. There are specific activities that provoke AoOs, and there are abilities that allow the actor to avoid provoking an AoO in specific situations. The 5 ft. step negates the AoO for moving out of a threatened square, and that's all. You evaluate whether an action provokes an AoO based solely on the conditions that apply when the action is taken. In both the aboves case, you leave a threatened square by making a 5 ft. step. Since a 5 ft. step negates the AoO from leaving a threatened square, no AoO is produced. In each case, you move into a threatened square, but that doesn't provoke an AoO either. Now, the first character attacks (I'm assuming melee). He's currently in a threatened square, but since a melee attack doesn't provoke an AoO, no AoO is provoked. How he got to that square is irrelevant for determining whether the attack provokes an AoO. In contrast, the second character casts a spell, which is a provoking activity, and thus an AoO occurs. In both cases, the characters could have used a move to arrive in the square. As long as they did not move out of a threatened square during the move, they would not provoke an AoO from the move. Since they are now in a threatened square, the spellcaster suffers an AoO, but the melee attacker does not. The logic for taking an AoO when charging an opponent with reach is similar. You are not provoking an AoO for charging. However, during the action you moved out of a threatened square, and that provokes an AoO unless a rule explicitly states that it does not. Just evaluate AoOs using the very narrow criteria and exceptions given and you'll do fine. And only pay attention to what is happening at the point the AoO might be provoked, not anything that has happened previously or might happen later. 3.0 did have one unusual case where you could retrospectively suffer an AoO depending on what you did after moving. 3.5 got rid of this by introducing the Withdraw action.
Sildatorak 06-14-05, 04:40 AM	I believe tiny and diminuitive creatures can't take a 5 foot step for free. They can if they have a speed greater than 5'. However they may still provoke an attack of opportunity if they use that 5' to enter an occupied square (to attack someone, for example).
JohnSnow 06-14-05, 04:51 PM	I think, when rules are more complicated, it becomes harder to roleplay because people have to pay careful attention to the rules, but a group experienced with the rules can probably work on roleplaying without thinking about the rules too much- since they already know them. I think this is an important point about combat in D&D. As a matter of fact, I've thought about getting my group together for a few "combat practice" sessions to shake the cobwebs off 3.5 tactics. Basically, practice the mechanics for a couple of sessions. After that we should all know the rules well enough to run interesting combats so that the descriptive "strike with all your might" means "power attack for your BAB." Some of this requires the DM to trust his players to add correctly, but the DM should also know the modifiers well enough to do that quickly. If the player rolls a 16, has a +3 strength mod and a +4 BAB, and calls: 20, you know he's power-attacked for 3 points. So that when he rolls for damage, he'll probably add 6 (str bonus + 3 from power attack) to it...assuming no other modifiers. Obviously, getting familiar enough with the rules that they're not so "in your face" has a learning curve. Which is why I'm thinking of working out the MECHANICAL side in "combat practice." Good idea?
deadDMwalking 06-14-05, 05:11 PM	I personally find that in 3.5 the modifiers just change so frequently, it is hard to really have a grasp for it. The last character I played was a cleric. I used every "weapon description" slot with multiple "versions" of myself. Casting Divine Favor would change all of my combat rolls. Casting Righteous Might would change them also. I also used Divine Power frequently. So, I had one set of numbers for each spell without the others, plus another version with each spell with one of the others, plus another version with all three spells used in conjunction with each other. Lastly, I had separate damage numbers listed for whether I was using my weapon 1-handed or 2-handed. And of course, this doesn't even include the changes as a result of bardic music, haste, flanking, etc. Stacking modifiers is such an important part of the game that the total numbers change so frequently as to make it near impossible to have a true sense of how honest your players are being.
Arrowhen 06-14-05, 05:39 PM	I personally find that in 3.5 the modifiers just change so frequently, it is hard to really have a grasp for it. The last character I played was a cleric. I used every "weapon description" slot with multiple "versions" of myself. Casting Divine Favor would change all of my combat rolls. Casting Righteous Might would change them also. I also used Divine Power frequently. So, I had one set of numbers for each spell without the others, plus another version with each spell with one of the others, plus another version with all three spells used in conjunction with each other. Lastly, I had separate damage numbers listed for whether I was using my weapon 1-handed or 2-handed. And of course, this doesn't even include the changes as a result of bardic music, haste, flanking, etc. Stacking modifiers is such an important part of the game that the total numbers change so frequently as to make it near impossible to have a true sense of how honest your players are being. When I'm playing a character who has lots of temporary modifiers like that, I find it easier to just write them down on a piece of scratch paper (or on a nearby part of the battlemat), roll a "normal" attack, and then add the modifiers afterward. When I DM, my group is pretty good about reminding each other, "did you add the +1 for bless and the +2 for charging?" If I had a larger group I'd probably make up a bunch of index cards that said things like "Inspire Courage: +1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls" or "Sickened: -2 penalty to attack, damage, saves, skill & ability checks" and hand them to the players when appropriate.