5ft move, AoO's and melee vs casters/ranged [Archive] - Wizards Community

5ft move, AoO's and melee vs casters/ranged [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tr0gd0r
11-21-05, 11:00 AM Hi All

I've some trivial questions I'd like to seek counsel on.

Please correct me if I am wrong (also the bad searching on here means I haven't found a previous post with these questions raised).

I know if i am a caster casting a spell or a ranged combatant making a ranged attack in the threat range of an enemy (we'll assume 5ft reach throughout) then I generate an AoO.

In our campaign the melee combatants generally charge the spell caster or archer (for example) and get 1 attack.

The caster (for example) then takes 5ft step, which does not generate an AoO and then casts a spell, outside the threat range of the fighter.

The fighter then makes a 5ft move and does a full attack, this then repeats.

What I find strange is that the fighter can't choose to make a 5ft move in the caster's turn and therefore get his AoO in the caster's turn and the full attacks in his own turn.

If you ready an action to move with the caster then you forfeit your full attack option and potentially multiple attacks, for 1 chance to interrupt a spell the caster tries to cast, and the majority of the time the concentration skill is maxed out and at even medium level, the caster can not fail his concentration check to combat cast.

Also if i was a caster and the fighter just started following me, i'd think something was dodgy and instead of casting i'd whack him with my staff just to annoy him, thus making the fighter waste his turn since he doesn't ready then i can cast, and if he does ready then i just melee him (albeit probably needing a lucky roll, but better than nothing) , or even just casting defensively negating his AoO.

Can anyone help explain what I am missing ? or is this the way things are supposed to be ?

regards

Raj
Inigo Carmine
11-21-05, 11:13 AM It's the way things are supposed to be. Keep in mind a wizard should not be able to survive a full attack from a decent fighter without significant buffage (or bad luck on the fighter's part).

If you really want to keep the caster from casting spells, then when you charge him either trip him (works better with imp trip) or grapple him.

Tripping the caster actually accomplishes little unless you have improved trip. If you have Imp trip, you will usually be getting attacks against the caster for every one spell that you have (one for the free attack after a successful trip,a dn 1 for the AoO as they stand up).

When a spellcaster is grappled, they require a move action to ready material components, can't cast anything with somatic components, can't cast anything with verbal components if you pin them, and have to make a concentration check just to cast even the spells whos components are available to them.

In addition to the two things above, for archers you can:

Disarm/Sunder the bow. It's easy, they have to use their melee attack bonus (replacing dex with str, usually their lesser stat) and in the case of disarm, get an additional penalty because a bow is not a melee weapon.
Neo_Leviathan
11-21-05, 11:59 AM When a spellcaster is grappled, they require a move action to ready material components, can't cast anything with somatic components, can't cast anything with verbal components if you pin them, and have to make a concentration check just to cast even the spells whos components are available to them.

Actually, thats incorrect.

A grappled mage cannot cast anything with Somatic components, and cannot cast anything with a material component that they do not have in hand. They also require a concentration check to cast anything. That part you got right.

However, a mage not being able to cast a spell with a verbal component if they are pinned is I'm sorry to say a load of crap :). Thats why spells like Dimension Door and Benign Transposition are so essential for a mage. The fighter runs in and pins the mage. Two seconds later the mage shouts "Teleport" and D-Doors out of the grapple.
olshanski_home
11-21-05, 12:24 PM However, a mage not being able to cast a spell with a verbal component if they are pinned is I'm sorry to say a load of crap :).I wouldn't consider the PHB to be "a load of crap"

You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.Most people interpret "prevent an opponent from speaking" to also prevent said opponent from casting any spell with a verbal component, since verbal components typically require speaking in a clear voice.

A mage who is simply grappled can still use verbal components, but once they are pinned, they are usually out of luck. (unless the grappler is retarded and doesn't take advantage of the chance to prevent the mage from speaking).
Neo_Leviathan
11-21-05, 12:29 PM I wouldn't consider the PHB to be "a load of crap"

Most people interpret "prevent an opponent from speaking" to also prevent said opponent from casting any spell with a verbal component, since verbal components typically require speaking in a clear voice.

A mage who is simply grappled can still use verbal components, but once they are pinned, they are usually out of luck. (unless the grappler is retarded and doesn't take advantage of the chance to prevent the mage from speaking).

!!!!!!! :eek:

My apologies, I shall get back in my box.
I literally have never seen that rule before.
miniatures_buyer
11-21-05, 12:43 PM Another way for the melee expert to get the spellcaster is for the melee person to declare a readied action to move when the spellcaster casts a spell.

When his readied action is used the melle person moves next to the caster, the caster then finishes casting the spell, the melee person then gets his Aoo and the caster has to make a concentraton check.
StormCrow42
11-21-05, 01:04 PM A mage who is simply grappled can still use verbal components, but once they are pinned, they are usually out of luck. (unless the grappler is retarded and doesn't take advantage of the chance to prevent the mage from speaking).

Unless of course they have a silent dimension door prepared :D
Chimaera2000
11-21-05, 01:10 PM It's for reasons like this that I've heard some people call it the "munchkin five-foot step." Between casting defensively and five-foot steps, it's surprisingly easy to avoid attacks of opportunity while casting spells or using a bow. Take that as you will, but it seems to be one of the quirks of the D & D rules system.
SureFoot
11-21-05, 01:27 PM If the fighter is adjacent to the wizard, he can ready an action to attack if the caster casts a spell. As long as the fighter hasn't moved that round, he can shadown the caster's 5' step and take his readied action to attack (thus forcing the Conc check). He can also take his AoO for the spellcasting w/in a threatened area, assuming the wiz didn't cast defensively, thus forcing a second conc check.

One thing that you might also consider (which I only just thought of--never heard of it being tried) is to ready an action to disarm the caster if he's using material components/focus. Might work . . . on second thought, probably not all that effective. never mind.
WolfHati
11-21-05, 02:07 PM Of course creatures with a 10 ft reach don't really care if you step back 5 feet.
DigitalMage
11-21-05, 02:10 PM The fighter then makes a 5ft move and does a full attack, this then repeats.
A good fighter though will attempt to manoeuvre his opponent into a corner or up against a wall (or better yet to th edge of the cliff) so that he can't keep backing up.

For example imagine a combat occuring in an L shaped corridor...

Fighter full attacks the Wizard

_______| |
|
_______FW_|

Wizard backs up 5ft and casts a spell
_______| |
|
______F__W|

Fighter follows, but steps diagonally to corner the wizard

_______| |
F |
_________W|
Inigo Carmine
11-21-05, 02:20 PM It's for reasons like this that I've heard some people call it the "munchkin five-foot step." Between casting defensively and five-foot steps, it's surprisingly easy to avoid attacks of opportunity while casting spells or using a bow. Take that as you will, but it seems to be one of the quirks of the D & D rules system.

It's not really munchkin. It's not an oversight in the rules, or something that's been twisted to give incredible advantge in unforseen circumstances. It's an intended feature of the game, and put in for expressly this purpose. It's no more munchkin than claiming your human to have a 30 ft move speed at a light load or your fighter getting d10+con mod HP per level.

Now it is quirky, but it is essential for balance in a turn based game with HP. It may seem unrealistic for an archer to be able to back off and get 2 shots in after someone with a big sword has closed with them, but consider it recompense for the fact that when the swordsman charged him from 60 ft away he should have been able to put 3-4 arrows in him during that time, and realistically, your average swordsman is going to have 4 HP.

Realistically an archer in melee is in big big trouble, but realtistically closing with an archer is very very dangerous.
olshanski_home
11-21-05, 02:41 PM This is not at all munchkin.
gleep
11-21-05, 03:07 PM It seems like half the time "munchkin" seems to mean "It's real hard for my 1st level goblin warriors to kill the 6th level wizard!" or some ilk. :D

--gleep
tarkin
11-21-05, 04:28 PM Really? Most of the time I have found the term "munchkin" to mean:

I can combine really 'cool' idea with other legal moves and it will let me kill a monster with CR twice as high as my level. Sure, it might be not too bad if you throw in a whole bunch of house rules preventing people from abusing it, but would it not make more sense to simply use the actual rules?

Or

Your grasp of real world physics is seriously lacking.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tr0gd0r 11-21-05, 11:00 AM	Hi All I've some trivial questions I'd like to seek counsel on. Please correct me if I am wrong (also the bad searching on here means I haven't found a previous post with these questions raised). I know if i am a caster casting a spell or a ranged combatant making a ranged attack in the threat range of an enemy (we'll assume 5ft reach throughout) then I generate an AoO. In our campaign the melee combatants generally charge the spell caster or archer (for example) and get 1 attack. The caster (for example) then takes 5ft step, which does not generate an AoO and then casts a spell, outside the threat range of the fighter. The fighter then makes a 5ft move and does a full attack, this then repeats. What I find strange is that the fighter can't choose to make a 5ft move in the caster's turn and therefore get his AoO in the caster's turn and the full attacks in his own turn. If you ready an action to move with the caster then you forfeit your full attack option and potentially multiple attacks, for 1 chance to interrupt a spell the caster tries to cast, and the majority of the time the concentration skill is maxed out and at even medium level, the caster can not fail his concentration check to combat cast. Also if i was a caster and the fighter just started following me, i'd think something was dodgy and instead of casting i'd whack him with my staff just to annoy him, thus making the fighter waste his turn since he doesn't ready then i can cast, and if he does ready then i just melee him (albeit probably needing a lucky roll, but better than nothing) , or even just casting defensively negating his AoO. Can anyone help explain what I am missing ? or is this the way things are supposed to be ? regards Raj
Inigo Carmine 11-21-05, 11:13 AM	It's the way things are supposed to be. Keep in mind a wizard should not be able to survive a full attack from a decent fighter without significant buffage (or bad luck on the fighter's part). If you really want to keep the caster from casting spells, then when you charge him either trip him (works better with imp trip) or grapple him. Tripping the caster actually accomplishes little unless you have improved trip. If you have Imp trip, you will usually be getting attacks against the caster for every one spell that you have (one for the free attack after a successful trip,a dn 1 for the AoO as they stand up). When a spellcaster is grappled, they require a move action to ready material components, can't cast anything with somatic components, can't cast anything with verbal components if you pin them, and have to make a concentration check just to cast even the spells whos components are available to them. In addition to the two things above, for archers you can: Disarm/Sunder the bow. It's easy, they have to use their melee attack bonus (replacing dex with str, usually their lesser stat) and in the case of disarm, get an additional penalty because a bow is not a melee weapon.
Neo_Leviathan 11-21-05, 11:59 AM	When a spellcaster is grappled, they require a move action to ready material components, can't cast anything with somatic components, can't cast anything with verbal components if you pin them, and have to make a concentration check just to cast even the spells whos components are available to them. Actually, thats incorrect. A grappled mage cannot cast anything with Somatic components, and cannot cast anything with a material component that they do not have in hand. They also require a concentration check to cast anything. That part you got right. However, a mage not being able to cast a spell with a verbal component if they are pinned is I'm sorry to say a load of crap :). Thats why spells like Dimension Door and Benign Transposition are so essential for a mage. The fighter runs in and pins the mage. Two seconds later the mage shouts "Teleport" and D-Doors out of the grapple.
olshanski_home 11-21-05, 12:24 PM	However, a mage not being able to cast a spell with a verbal component if they are pinned is I'm sorry to say a load of crap :).I wouldn't consider the PHB to be "a load of crap" You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.Most people interpret "prevent an opponent from speaking" to also prevent said opponent from casting any spell with a verbal component, since verbal components typically require speaking in a clear voice. A mage who is simply grappled can still use verbal components, but once they are pinned, they are usually out of luck. (unless the grappler is retarded and doesn't take advantage of the chance to prevent the mage from speaking).
Neo_Leviathan 11-21-05, 12:29 PM	I wouldn't consider the PHB to be "a load of crap" Most people interpret "prevent an opponent from speaking" to also prevent said opponent from casting any spell with a verbal component, since verbal components typically require speaking in a clear voice. A mage who is simply grappled can still use verbal components, but once they are pinned, they are usually out of luck. (unless the grappler is retarded and doesn't take advantage of the chance to prevent the mage from speaking). !!!!!!! :eek: My apologies, I shall get back in my box. I literally have never seen that rule before.
miniatures_buyer 11-21-05, 12:43 PM	Another way for the melee expert to get the spellcaster is for the melee person to declare a readied action to move when the spellcaster casts a spell. When his readied action is used the melle person moves next to the caster, the caster then finishes casting the spell, the melee person then gets his Aoo and the caster has to make a concentraton check.
StormCrow42 11-21-05, 01:04 PM	A mage who is simply grappled can still use verbal components, but once they are pinned, they are usually out of luck. (unless the grappler is retarded and doesn't take advantage of the chance to prevent the mage from speaking). Unless of course they have a silent dimension door prepared :D
Chimaera2000 11-21-05, 01:10 PM	It's for reasons like this that I've heard some people call it the "munchkin five-foot step." Between casting defensively and five-foot steps, it's surprisingly easy to avoid attacks of opportunity while casting spells or using a bow. Take that as you will, but it seems to be one of the quirks of the D & D rules system.
SureFoot 11-21-05, 01:27 PM	If the fighter is adjacent to the wizard, he can ready an action to attack if the caster casts a spell. As long as the fighter hasn't moved that round, he can shadown the caster's 5' step and take his readied action to attack (thus forcing the Conc check). He can also take his AoO for the spellcasting w/in a threatened area, assuming the wiz didn't cast defensively, thus forcing a second conc check. One thing that you might also consider (which I only just thought of--never heard of it being tried) is to ready an action to disarm the caster if he's using material components/focus. Might work . . . on second thought, probably not all that effective. never mind.
WolfHati 11-21-05, 02:07 PM	Of course creatures with a 10 ft reach don't really care if you step back 5 feet.
DigitalMage 11-21-05, 02:10 PM	The fighter then makes a 5ft move and does a full attack, this then repeats. A good fighter though will attempt to manoeuvre his opponent into a corner or up against a wall (or better yet to th edge of the cliff) so that he can't keep backing up. For example imagine a combat occuring in an L shaped corridor... Fighter full attacks the Wizard _______\| \| \| _______FW_\| Wizard backs up 5ft and casts a spell _______\| \| \| ______F__W\| Fighter follows, but steps diagonally to corner the wizard _______\| \| F \| _________W\|
Inigo Carmine 11-21-05, 02:20 PM	It's for reasons like this that I've heard some people call it the "munchkin five-foot step." Between casting defensively and five-foot steps, it's surprisingly easy to avoid attacks of opportunity while casting spells or using a bow. Take that as you will, but it seems to be one of the quirks of the D & D rules system. It's not really munchkin. It's not an oversight in the rules, or something that's been twisted to give incredible advantge in unforseen circumstances. It's an intended feature of the game, and put in for expressly this purpose. It's no more munchkin than claiming your human to have a 30 ft move speed at a light load or your fighter getting d10+con mod HP per level. Now it is quirky, but it is essential for balance in a turn based game with HP. It may seem unrealistic for an archer to be able to back off and get 2 shots in after someone with a big sword has closed with them, but consider it recompense for the fact that when the swordsman charged him from 60 ft away he should have been able to put 3-4 arrows in him during that time, and realistically, your average swordsman is going to have 4 HP. Realistically an archer in melee is in big big trouble, but realtistically closing with an archer is very very dangerous.
olshanski_home 11-21-05, 02:41 PM	This is not at all munchkin.
gleep 11-21-05, 03:07 PM	It seems like half the time "munchkin" seems to mean "It's real hard for my 1st level goblin warriors to kill the 6th level wizard!" or some ilk. :D --gleep
tarkin 11-21-05, 04:28 PM	Really? Most of the time I have found the term "munchkin" to mean: I can combine really 'cool' idea with other legal moves and it will let me kill a monster with CR twice as high as my level. Sure, it might be not too bad if you throw in a whole bunch of house rules preventing people from abusing it, but would it not make more sense to simply use the actual rules? Or Your grasp of real world physics is seriously lacking.