Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Soichiro Arima 04-18-07, 07:57 PM	Hi everyone one! So I have myself a bit of a problem. Last sesson I unintentionally killed two characters. I'm not one for time resets or taking back actions so I am looking for advise to make sure it doesnt happen again. The party was made up of 6 players, all Good: Elf Fighter 3 (Now Dead) Dwarf Fighter 3 Halfling Rouge 3 Dwarf Cleric 3 Human Wizard 3 (Now Dead) Forest Gnome Warlock 3 As I had suspected they delt with their own CR creatures rather easily so I increased the difficulty. Now I have a feeling I am playing their Intillegent enemies to smart, but it makes sense, I meen this is the situation. Basicly the party was exploring a cave that is being used by various humanoid bandits as a base of operations. The first PC died when trying to get around a trap. All the trap consisted of was hidden stone doors dropping down trapping the party between them, releasing knockout posion inbetween them and triggering and alarm. However the party was walking in a staggered group and two of the PCs, the Wizard and Rouge wese isolated from the rest of the party and not even with eachother, on opposite sides of the trap. The Rouge was able to find the mechanism on his side of the trap and reset the door on his side allowing the party to get out before anyone other than the Warlock was knocked out. However the mechanism for the other door was on the other side of it and the party couldn't get it open and a patrol had been sent to each side. The Wizard was quickly over powered, they were only trying to capture him at first but when he shocking grasped and killed one of the guards, the sergent killed him for it since he was no longer worth the risk. I meen I gave him a chance, I didnt think they would even try to capture him but gave it a shot, it would make for a interesting resuce. The Elf Fighter was killed in combat. Basicly I had the party fighting 5 lv. 1 Dromite Warriors. They did pretty well and killed two of them rather quickly but then the other three dromites realized they were probly toast and all fired their Energy Rays at the nearest PC, the Elf Fighter and tried making a run for it hopeing dealing with their injured ally would slow the party down so they could make it to safety and it worked, only one of them was killed before the party stopping chasing. Now I am not sure if that was just me making them play to smart or making the encounter to hard. I have tried making encounters more difficult by just making more weak enemies but the party deals with them so effortlessly so I've made tougher smart enemies but now I'm worried about if I am being to difficult. Since the cave base does have a dungeon the players new PCs will be prisoners so I'm not worried about that. Any suggestions would be nice? I cant seem to find a balance between intellegence and too intellegent because honestly, I feel that enemies that act they they are the to die is around Int 5, not 10 or 11...
Nelagend 04-18-07, 08:11 PM	Sounds to me like you played it fine. If the PCs are walking staggered like that they should expect to lose members to divide and conquer. If PCs never die, the idea that everyone in the world isn't level 20 is not believable. If your party included a proper Rogue with trapfinding, rather than a bottle of makeup, that would probably have avoided losing one person to a trap early on.
WolfHati 04-18-07, 08:22 PM	If you don't want to kill characters, then you don't have to... You don't have to play the enemies as totally ruthless, give your players the benefit of the doubt, if it is something that would outright kill a player easily. For example, a shocking grasp, while it may drop a first level warrior, at third level is not going to kill him outright (-10 hp), without ridiculous luck, so while I'd have trouble seeing a sergeant keeping a prisoner around who has actually killed one of his men, a prisoner seriously injuring someone doesn't have to be death worthy. As for the dromites, unless they have some sort of psychic link going on, are not necessarily going to be so coordinated, especially when running away, so if you know that 3 rays has a good chance of killing your fighter, you could just have one flee in terror and the other 2 take the energy ray approach and follow the third. Of course there's nothing wrong with playing monsters dangerously and intelligently, just make sure it doesn't get to be no fun for the characters. Some people may like the danger of combat, but it's far less fun to lose a character randomly to a bunch of low level mooks than it is in an epic battle against an army of lizardfolk, or an evil wizard, or the like.
Soichiro Arima 04-18-07, 08:25 PM	Well the trap had a magical trigger, a level 3 rogue had no chance at finding the trigger, was that being harsh? I meen the architect of the base was a level 9 wizard. And yes the dromites were under a mindlink.
primemover003 04-18-07, 08:39 PM	A magic trigger is probably too much for 3rd level PC's who only have about +8 to 10ish for Search (magic DC = 25+spell level). Mechanical triggers are better DC 20ish tops. Overall you probably should've equipped the bugs with thunderstones and tanglefoot bags or nets to subdue prisoners (especially if the wizard is a crafter). Some times smaller is better with magic. A Level 9 wizard can crank out a lot of alchemical items. The only magic traps you should probably have are Alarm spells in sensitive areas (lab, library, vault, etc.) The only downside at 3rd level is PC's are still squishy and a death can be expensive (5,000gp for a raise dead, unless they prefer 1,000gp reincarnate).
Kouk 04-18-07, 09:55 PM	I think you are sending them into bases that are extraordinarily well fortified, with traps they can't hope to notice and that not only do a little bit of damage (like most traps) but separate them and poison/knock them out. If you are already know you are increasing the difficulty of the fights, why go to the trouble of also having the enemies perfectly well coordinated and with no compunctions about killing off intruders? Try increasing either the toughness or the intelligence, not both at once. There is something to be said about "realistic" opponents but a DM is bound by no rules on how anything in particular should act regardless of Intelligence. There is also Wisdom and actual combat experience that could influence their tactics. Are they scared of fights, or do they come from a military tradition? What makes these level 1 guys so brave that they are willing to make a last ditch attack on the fighter and still face the rest of the party rather than just running away or surrendering? I don't know really what a Dromite is, because I don't have the psionics book. You also are free to "fudge" rolls so that instead of killing the wizard he was just brought to -3, and they dragged him off, stabilized him and tossed him in a cell. I think you you went overboard on this one, but don't worry about it. Sometimes the players need to get killed to play intelligently for the future. Clearly it wasn't the brightest idea for the wizard to be standing next to the rogue in the front of the party but otherwise the party seems to have done everything right. primemover003's signature quote right above this post seems to sum it up pretty well.
Imatash 04-18-07, 11:19 PM	I would say everything was fine.....however, in the future don't say to the party all three fire their rays, fire one roll damage, fire second....etc you don't have to totally obliterate one character or make sure he is -10+ Or if you have the character down lessen the damage... In most campaigns I have played I find it more enjoyable to have lots of near misses and bodies down rather than corpses. But if this is the first time a party of six have had some characters killed you are probably doing a fair job. Imatash
Fend 04-18-07, 11:45 PM	I Run a non-fudged party of 6. and i think you played it fine, belivable and realistic. The players will adapt to your play style. Try however to encourage them "not" to make super beefed up unrealistic - self sufficient and reliant characters just to cheat death in your campaign however if they die and want to come back as somthing else. A good rule of thumb would be run the groups CR' for encounters you want them to live through but still find dangerous and exilerateing, 1 or 2 CR higher for struggles and 3 high Amp up the loot drops by 50% aswell. or the group will become too poor and underequipted to handle higher CR encounters. Gold is simply another form of reward - you dont have to be super realistic in that department. As for the CRs, The party is supposed to handle their own CR with relitive ease. its a challange that should mung through a portion of their resources, but not all of them. If you want however to give them a good fight use Cr's 2 points higher than the party. Or combine monsters, traps and interesting situations to make things interesting and challanging without using a higher CR monster (tho you will have to give them Exp for the situation and traps involved aswell) I think partys of 6 are an ideal for DND. It alows an element of mortality. Someone can die, and the party wont be hit as hard as a 4 person group. I was always soft on my players when they had a party of 3 and they hated it. Now that i have a party of 6, im mean and they love it. Just takes some getting used to.
Nathreet 04-19-07, 12:09 AM	1. That sounds like quite an expensive trap. 2. There are way too many parties with rouge in them. It does a lousy job of finding traps plus make-up isn't very intimidating. Even a smart PC would just run if things were looking bad. It's hard to catch up to someone who simply bolts and hides. Like someone said, they aren't telepathic and can't coordinate so well.
celtredleg 04-19-07, 12:19 AM	Diferent groups, different styles. My last group, once we actual engaged, it was a wargame. They fully expected me to play the monsters as rough as the monsters could be. Yes, some times they got whacked hard. But when they won, they knew they had earned it.
Kouk 04-19-07, 02:49 AM	I was always soft on my players when they had a party of 3 and they hated it. Now that i have a party of 6, im mean and they love it. Just takes some getting used to. Maybe they are afraid of making you more angry :P
Crash169 04-19-07, 03:55 AM	We are also a six player group. We were having trouble with having to re-roll characters way too often. What happens is, with six players, you're going to have your noobs, and your veterans. So while the DM is making a challenge for the veterans, the noobs often either tend to just sit and take a beating, or not play their role in combat. My DM solved this by making the death HP, -20 for PC's only. We're heroes, it's tougher to kill us. Raise dead is also very un-common in our campaign. It depends on how long you've had the character, how many times he has died, and it also depends on if he was part of the CORE characters that started the campaign. We actually just restarted today. All of our characters were around level 9 or 10.. 4 died in about 3 sessions. The core was down to 2 players. Dm called it off, we all agreed on restarting at 1st level.
danielinthewolvesden 04-19-07, 03:19 PM	There are a few thing you did "wrong". If the party skill monkey has Search/Disable Device maxed out, then you should never have a trap that the skill monkey can not find with a very good roll. Next- do not split the party. It turns a good portion of a game into a nap-fest for half the party. There are problems with a largish party. They can easily beat an encounter at their own level, having half-again the suggested power. BUT individually, each party member is just as easy to kill as in a 4 member party. The way to challenge them is to have more foes but do NOT have the more foes all gang up on ONE party member, because six ("equal") foes can kill any one party member with ease, even if the party wins. One thing that the party has done wrong is that a party of six needs TWO healers. A Dragon Shaman would be great for this party. My suggestion here is to not penalize the two guys whose PCs died- no loss of level for their new guys- but only if one of them agrees to run a back-up healer. Suggest DS or Bard strongly. Finally in a six player game, you need a bit more insurance from "accidental" death. I suggest that "death" is not reached at-10 but at -10+ Con bonus (if any). Thus with a CON of 14, death arrives @ -12.