6-man-party CR calculations? [Archive] - Wizards Community

6-man-party CR calculations? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kouk
03-11-07, 07:45 PM I am DMing for a party of 6 players.

I understand the CR and EL rules when you have a party of 4 PCs with similar levels.

Is there some formula that people have discovered for how to gauge the appropriate CRs to throw at a party of 6 besides trial and error?

Would 6 PCs be 50% stronger than the normal 4 members? Or is it more than that because they can work out tactics better? Should I determine the party's CR and consider an average "challenging" encounter to be half of that?

Just looking for some thoughts, I know it varies by party make-up and gear and such but in general if everything is pretty "standard" how would it work? I have not DM'd for 6 people before.
Lerysh
03-11-07, 08:31 PM I DM for a party of 3 mostly, and they tend to annialate things of apropriate CR. The CR system itself is just broken as power-creep sets in and PC's get more powerful and new shiny abilities that the CR printed in the Monsterous Manual doesn't factor. There is no way a Grillion is CR 6 now, for example. A team of ToB charecters rips it apart, and is no worse for wear as their manuvers get replenished at the end of combat. It's mostly judgement calls. I wouldn't go over +3 of the party tho, 50% is out as they get higher levels it will throw off the balance by quite a bit. I doubt a 6 man team of 16th level carecters could take on a pair of Solars for example.

Good way to gauge is go by the expierence table. Go for something that gives the same ammount of EXP to 6 people that 4 would have got for appropriate to their level. If CR X Gives 12,000 find out what CR gives 18,000 and go with that as the party level, up or down if you want harder or easier challenges.
Kensan_Oni
03-11-07, 08:43 PM I just generally add 1/2 the encounter again for the extra players, or add more hit dice to the monster. Usually it tends to work out for me, at least.
Hack and Smasher
03-11-07, 08:58 PM just send 2 of what ever you were gonna use it work out fine.
Aryxbez
03-12-07, 01:26 AM if there is six like in your example, I assume they can fight
50% more. like with 5 pcs if normally a party can fight
4 number of creatures, then I would add a extra one since
there is a 5th member in the group.

I hope this will work out in the end

Also how much does the Martial adepts skew with the
CR system Lerysh?
Dux_is_me
03-12-07, 01:52 AM If you would run an encounter with CR X for a 4-PC party, for a 6-PC party you should run an encounter with CR X+1. (For example, say all six of your characters are level 8. In order to challenge the 6-char group as you would challenge a 4-char group, you should throw a CR 9 encounter at them.)
Rillek_Denar
03-12-07, 01:58 AM http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm
pres_man
03-12-07, 02:29 AM 6 people is 50% more than 4 people. So increase the number of foes by 50% (rounded up).
Krusk
03-12-07, 02:43 AM I just assume they can handle cr of one higher than i would normally use.

Never had any complaints about it, and its a simple system. +1cr for every 2 characters above 4. -1 cr for every 2 less than 4. Sure it breaks down after 8 players, but by that point you need 2 games, not one.
Guardian Phoenix
03-12-07, 02:47 AM In general it will be preferrable to include more enemies rather than stronger enemies. A stronger enemy has too much danger of either being unkillable by essentially any number of the current level, or being able to kill any character of the current level without effort, or both. With more enemies, there's more for everyone to play with.
pres_man
03-12-07, 02:51 AM In general it will be preferrable to include more enemies rather than stronger enemies. A stronger enemy has too much danger of either being unkillable by essentially any number of the current level, or being able to kill any character of the current level without effort, or both. With more enemies, there's more for everyone to play with.
Also one strong foe usually drops really quick, though as you say, it may drop a PC really quick first. The reason is because you have 6 PCs attacking every round that it gets one round of attacks. A 6-1 ratio, usually isn't too good, and even a couple of levels higher, isn't going to tend have 2-3 times the number of hps.

e^(iπ) + 1 = 0
Isn't it beautiful?
May ask, what college did you go to? I remember I had a college professor that always made a big deal about this.
DMsDelight
03-17-07, 08:27 AM What about 7 characters? I have 7....And I cant split the group up....
Nom
03-17-07, 09:09 AM What about 7 characters? I have 7....And I cant split the group up....7 characters is 75% more characters than 4 characters, so increase the number of opponents by 75%. You'll probably be OK if you double sometimes and increase by 50% sometimes.

Note that "double" doesn't mean you have to add exactly the same as what's already there. Mix it up, just make the additions have the same EL as the existing encounter (or 1 less for +50%).

What is somewhat more difficult is retrofitting an existing adventure to a larger but lower level party. If possible, a better option is to use a level appropriate adventure and just make the encounters bigger. If you can't do this, 6-7 PCs can probably do fine in a level+1 adventure and 8+ in a level+2 adventure. I'd recommend against more than level+2, even with numbers.
Kensan_Oni
03-17-07, 10:16 AM 7 is so close to 8 that I just double the monsters. It's just easier that way.
Valk
03-19-07, 02:34 AM For the past 32 months I have been playing with a party of 6 or 7 people. In my experience you can treat the party level is 2 higher when choosing your monsters or creating your encounters. This is effectively doubling the monsters as 2 CR x monsters have an EL of x+2, but by looking at it this way you can be more creative by instead of using 2 balors using a balor and some lesser demons while still knowing what you are doing.

75% players so 75% more monster is a bit too weak as 2 players are more than two times better than 1 player if they know anything about working together. Assuming your 4 man party is a fighter, cleric, wizard and rogue; the fifth member could be a druid, adding some strong buffs (barkskin) and healing aside from his own strength, the sixth could be a ranger with a very high spot that benefits the group aside from his own strength.

Also look at things like spotting and sense motive. More people rolling means more chance for a high roll. Though at higher levels the ones without skill ranks no longer matter.
Frugal
03-19-07, 09:18 AM I'd definitely agree that more opponents is better than fewer at higher CR. You run the risk of immunities and high damage output coming up. Or, if that doesn't come up then you get way more opponents ganging up on the fewer opponents, so things like flanking (and sneak attack) come up more often. Also pay attention to things that buff the whole party (like a bard), which really add impact with larger parties.
DrMorganes
03-19-07, 09:32 AM Another vote for the Encounter Calculator (http://www.geocities.com/edymnionii/EPLvsEL.html)! Definitely an invaluable tool for dealing with those pesky non-standard parties.
solbergb
03-19-07, 09:37 AM The RPGA bumps the party level by 1 when they have 6 characters.

In my experience that usually works out about right (ie, 6 5th level characters are roughly equal to 4-5 6th level characters). They count cohorts into the equation, but not bonded mounts/animal companions.
Scottbert
03-19-07, 04:42 PM The way the CR/EL system works, a party that increases its size to 150% adds one to it's effective level.

If someone in the group brings a laptop to the game and will let you use it, don't be afraid to use the encounter calculator (I have DM who refuses to use it for some reason). Having to use a tool doesn't make you less of a DM -- It makes you a DM who spends less time calculating XP and more time running a game!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kouk 03-11-07, 07:45 PM	I am DMing for a party of 6 players. I understand the CR and EL rules when you have a party of 4 PCs with similar levels. Is there some formula that people have discovered for how to gauge the appropriate CRs to throw at a party of 6 besides trial and error? Would 6 PCs be 50% stronger than the normal 4 members? Or is it more than that because they can work out tactics better? Should I determine the party's CR and consider an average "challenging" encounter to be half of that? Just looking for some thoughts, I know it varies by party make-up and gear and such but in general if everything is pretty "standard" how would it work? I have not DM'd for 6 people before.
Lerysh 03-11-07, 08:31 PM	I DM for a party of 3 mostly, and they tend to annialate things of apropriate CR. The CR system itself is just broken as power-creep sets in and PC's get more powerful and new shiny abilities that the CR printed in the Monsterous Manual doesn't factor. There is no way a Grillion is CR 6 now, for example. A team of ToB charecters rips it apart, and is no worse for wear as their manuvers get replenished at the end of combat. It's mostly judgement calls. I wouldn't go over +3 of the party tho, 50% is out as they get higher levels it will throw off the balance by quite a bit. I doubt a 6 man team of 16th level carecters could take on a pair of Solars for example. Good way to gauge is go by the expierence table. Go for something that gives the same ammount of EXP to 6 people that 4 would have got for appropriate to their level. If CR X Gives 12,000 find out what CR gives 18,000 and go with that as the party level, up or down if you want harder or easier challenges.
Kensan_Oni 03-11-07, 08:43 PM	I just generally add 1/2 the encounter again for the extra players, or add more hit dice to the monster. Usually it tends to work out for me, at least.
Hack and Smasher 03-11-07, 08:58 PM	just send 2 of what ever you were gonna use it work out fine.
Aryxbez 03-12-07, 01:26 AM	if there is six like in your example, I assume they can fight 50% more. like with 5 pcs if normally a party can fight 4 number of creatures, then I would add a extra one since there is a 5th member in the group. I hope this will work out in the end Also how much does the Martial adepts skew with the CR system Lerysh?
Dux_is_me 03-12-07, 01:52 AM	If you would run an encounter with CR X for a 4-PC party, for a 6-PC party you should run an encounter with CR X+1. (For example, say all six of your characters are level 8. In order to challenge the 6-char group as you would challenge a 4-char group, you should throw a CR 9 encounter at them.)
Rillek_Denar 03-12-07, 01:58 AM	http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm
pres_man 03-12-07, 02:29 AM	6 people is 50% more than 4 people. So increase the number of foes by 50% (rounded up).
Krusk 03-12-07, 02:43 AM	I just assume they can handle cr of one higher than i would normally use. Never had any complaints about it, and its a simple system. +1cr for every 2 characters above 4. -1 cr for every 2 less than 4. Sure it breaks down after 8 players, but by that point you need 2 games, not one.
Guardian Phoenix 03-12-07, 02:47 AM	In general it will be preferrable to include more enemies rather than stronger enemies. A stronger enemy has too much danger of either being unkillable by essentially any number of the current level, or being able to kill any character of the current level without effort, or both. With more enemies, there's more for everyone to play with.
pres_man 03-12-07, 02:51 AM	In general it will be preferrable to include more enemies rather than stronger enemies. A stronger enemy has too much danger of either being unkillable by essentially any number of the current level, or being able to kill any character of the current level without effort, or both. With more enemies, there's more for everyone to play with. Also one strong foe usually drops really quick, though as you say, it may drop a PC really quick first. The reason is because you have 6 PCs attacking every round that it gets one round of attacks. A 6-1 ratio, usually isn't too good, and even a couple of levels higher, isn't going to tend have 2-3 times the number of hps. e^(iπ) + 1 = 0 Isn't it beautiful? May ask, what college did you go to? I remember I had a college professor that always made a big deal about this.
DMsDelight 03-17-07, 08:27 AM	What about 7 characters? I have 7....And I cant split the group up....
Nom 03-17-07, 09:09 AM	What about 7 characters? I have 7....And I cant split the group up....7 characters is 75% more characters than 4 characters, so increase the number of opponents by 75%. You'll probably be OK if you double sometimes and increase by 50% sometimes. Note that "double" doesn't mean you have to add exactly the same as what's already there. Mix it up, just make the additions have the same EL as the existing encounter (or 1 less for +50%). What is somewhat more difficult is retrofitting an existing adventure to a larger but lower level party. If possible, a better option is to use a level appropriate adventure and just make the encounters bigger. If you can't do this, 6-7 PCs can probably do fine in a level+1 adventure and 8+ in a level+2 adventure. I'd recommend against more than level+2, even with numbers.
Kensan_Oni 03-17-07, 10:16 AM	7 is so close to 8 that I just double the monsters. It's just easier that way.
Valk 03-19-07, 02:34 AM	For the past 32 months I have been playing with a party of 6 or 7 people. In my experience you can treat the party level is 2 higher when choosing your monsters or creating your encounters. This is effectively doubling the monsters as 2 CR x monsters have an EL of x+2, but by looking at it this way you can be more creative by instead of using 2 balors using a balor and some lesser demons while still knowing what you are doing. 75% players so 75% more monster is a bit too weak as 2 players are more than two times better than 1 player if they know anything about working together. Assuming your 4 man party is a fighter, cleric, wizard and rogue; the fifth member could be a druid, adding some strong buffs (barkskin) and healing aside from his own strength, the sixth could be a ranger with a very high spot that benefits the group aside from his own strength. Also look at things like spotting and sense motive. More people rolling means more chance for a high roll. Though at higher levels the ones without skill ranks no longer matter.
Frugal 03-19-07, 09:18 AM	I'd definitely agree that more opponents is better than fewer at higher CR. You run the risk of immunities and high damage output coming up. Or, if that doesn't come up then you get way more opponents ganging up on the fewer opponents, so things like flanking (and sneak attack) come up more often. Also pay attention to things that buff the whole party (like a bard), which really add impact with larger parties.
DrMorganes 03-19-07, 09:32 AM	Another vote for the Encounter Calculator (http://www.geocities.com/edymnionii/EPLvsEL.html)! Definitely an invaluable tool for dealing with those pesky non-standard parties.
solbergb 03-19-07, 09:37 AM	The RPGA bumps the party level by 1 when they have 6 characters. In my experience that usually works out about right (ie, 6 5th level characters are roughly equal to 4-5 6th level characters). They count cohorts into the equation, but not bonded mounts/animal companions.
Scottbert 03-19-07, 04:42 PM	The way the CR/EL system works, a party that increases its size to 150% adds one to it's effective level. If someone in the group brings a laptop to the game and will let you use it, don't be afraid to use the encounter calculator (I have DM who refuses to use it for some reason). Having to use a tool doesn't make you less of a DM -- It makes you a DM who spends less time calculating XP and more time running a game!