Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Blu Death 10-02-05, 07:51 PM	Well, a long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away) a guy brought this up on a thread. It was the fact that he was trying to bring different types of assassins into his campain. Not just the usual stab in the back at night while you were sleeping. Each assassin was named after and exibited the trait of one of the deadly sins. Greed, gluttony, lust, envy, anger (or is it rage?), pride, and sloth. Anyways, the point being, I am going to incorperate these guys into my campain as well. So far, the PC's have met two of the brothers (yes they are brothers). They met bug-eyed Greed who is a rouge and always flipping a coin. And they met Gluttony, who is a cleric who specializes in a special domain I made up. They are about to meet pride, a duelist bard who only fights fair fights, man to man. I was wondering, what should some of the others be, what levels are they, what are their traits. How can I make them different. And should they fight all at once or a couple at a time (like gluttony and greed working together)? If they work in pairs, who would they be with, etc. Thank you.
dan1234 10-02-05, 08:07 PM	well this is sloth. . . click here (http://www.hedweb.com/animimag/sloths.jpg) Seriously, I have been trying to figure out what is sloth for a long time now. BUt I would just use that ^^^^^^... No body would expect it. For the rest, I know what they are, and they are pretty easy to figure out, like anger=Barbarian, or som other thing. . .
AlphaSquirell 10-02-05, 08:22 PM	First off, it's wrath, not anger/rage. (so anyone who simply fights in anger will do, but a Barbarian would work nicely) Envy should be someone who disarms anyone that has anything they want. (maybe a pickpocket type person, or someone who uses magic to yank items away form peopel) Lust should be someone who simply trys to talk people into doing "what he wants". (maybe the players have to rescue the mayor's daughter from this bardish soothesayer) As for Sloth. Let it be a king/ruler type, who does all sorts of vile things, but refuses to leave his throne. (which is more like an uber sofa than a fancy armchair) It doesn't matter too much what class he is, as he is to lazy to fight for himself. The other way to do this is have an assassin who only kills the lazy. (thus, it is someone the PCs can actually fight, instead of his minions)
dan1234 10-02-05, 08:29 PM	Or for sloth you could have that minkey thing. . . So from what I am getting, sloth is being lazy?? THAT's perfect for the monkey, it's one of the slowest animals in the world. At less have the sloth guy travel with one on his back or somthing. . .
AlphaSquirell 10-02-05, 08:48 PM	Yeah, the generic Sloth is a dirt-slow animal. (note, dirt is faster on its own, this is just an accurate comparison) So an extreme "Sloth" is the world's biggest and best Couch Potatoe. (watch the movie "Seven Deadly Sins" to see an EXCELLENT example of Sloth, and, well, all the other Sins, for that matter)
pangalactic 10-02-05, 08:51 PM	Or for sloth you could have that minkey thing. . . So from what I am getting, sloth is being lazy?? THAT's perfect for the monkey, it's one of the slowest animals in the world. At less have the sloth guy travel with one on his back or somthing. . . It's not a monkey. It's a sloth.
dan1234 10-02-05, 08:56 PM	It's not a monkey. It's a sloth. WOW, your right :confused: I always tought it was in the primate, ape or whatever family, but I guess not. I just looked it up , and yes I am suprised. . . CLASSIFICATION Sloths belong to the: * Kingdom Animalia (the animals) * Phylum Chordata * Subphylum Vertebrata (animals with backbones) * Class Mammalia (warm-blooded animals with fur and mammary glands) * Order Xenarthra * Suborder Pilosa o Family Bradypodidae + Genus Bradypus - Three-toed Sloths # Species torquatus (the maned sloth) # Species tridactylus (the Three-toed Sloth has three toes (and claws) on the front and hind legs # Species variegatus o Family Megalonychidae + Genus Choloepus - Two-toed Sloths # Species hoffmanni (Hoffman's Sloth, a two-toed sloth: it has two toes (and claws) on the front legs; the hind legs have three toes (and claws) # Species didactylus (Linne's Two-Toed Sloth)
Lazzmaniandevil 10-02-05, 08:58 PM	I could imagine Lust being a seductive courtesan/poisoner, that use lust to his/her advantage... Envy could be a shapechanger of some kind, that always copy the appearence of its victim... Wrath being a barbarian seem like a natural fit... As for Sloth, maybe an enchanter, with sleeping effect spells for his victim, and charm monster/lesser geas to have other fight for him...
dan1234 10-02-05, 09:01 PM	I could imagine Lust being a seductive courtesan/poisoner, that use lust to his/her advantage... Envy could be a shapechanger of some kind, that always copy the appearence of its victim... Wrath being a barbarian seem like a natural fit... As for Sloth, maybe an enchanter, with sleeping effect spells for his victim, and charm monster/lesser geas to have other fight for him... WOW and Enchanter with a Sloth familiar!!!!! I never tought of that. . . :drool:
Rumple_Cragstan 10-02-05, 09:03 PM	Ah, I remember that thread I made.... had some good ideas in it, but never really got off the ground. I'll help you out with the concepts I gathered from the old thread. You already have Gluttony, Greed, and Pride made up, so I'll ignore them for now. Wrath (Punishment or vengeance as a manifestation of anger, usually on an epic scale). I would say that a barbarian would suit this archtype perfectly. He is a juggernaut who destroys anything in his way. I would say to have him attack in a public area where he can wreak as much havok as possible, by destroying carts, killing any commoner who gets in his way, and just in general causing things to end up in a heap of rubble. He would probably attack alone, any allies would be a liability. You could even make him a minotaur or ogre, something which would have even more destructive capability. A fire elemental would be an interesting idea for this (sybolic of the fire of anger). Sloth (a disinclination to work or exert yourself). Guildmaster comes to mind. A rich, powerful, well-connected man who does very little for himself. Typical evil guy hiding behind small armies of sacrificial PC fodder. Even when he gets into combat himself, he'll probably do the most simple actions possible as long as it works. Instead of doing hit-and-run spring attacks, he'll just go full on with a full attack, because its easier. Definately not alone, the other 6 sins might be his 'elite guard', or it could just be unrelated to the others. Lust (self-indulgent sexual desire). We've all met people like this... everything they do is around the one goal of getting nookie. If they can do a little extra work and add sex onto the job, then all the better. And scince people usually aren't the most defensive durring sex, all the better for a skilled assassin to utilise it as a weapon.... and if they get thier jollies out of it, well its just one of those 'perks' that every job carries. Probably a solo worker. Envy (A feeling of discontent and resentment aroused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of another). He is selfish, and would probably be the most likely to become a turncoat and help the PCs (for a time). Probably most effective if paired with Sloth, just because of the tension that would create between the two. In combat, he would probably try to take away the PCs biggest weapon (scince he would be envious of that skill). Sunder a fighter's sword, break a mage's fingers, cut the strings of the bard's lute, ect. Like I said, probably works well with Sloth, but you could have him work alone.
Discordia 10-02-05, 09:18 PM	These ideas may be a bit different - I'm basing them on Dante's interpretation of the sins. Wrath ("love of justice perverted to revenge and spite"): Barbarian seems to be the most popular class, as most people read wrath as reckless anger. I read it more as hatred and spite. I'd go the opposite direction: a mad vigilante (very, very LE) who kills anyone who he feels deserves punishment. Envy ("Love of one's own good perverted to a desire to deprive other men of theirs"): You've already introduced a thief, so I'd use Rumple's idea - a turncoat who sides with the PCs, only to sabotage them at a crucial moment. Lust ("Excessive love of others"): Again, I like Rumple's idea of a person who uses sex as a weapon. Perhaps an assassin who uses telepathy and shapeshifting to become someone's greatest desire, then stab them in the back. Sloth ("Failure to love God with all one's heart, all one's mind, and all one's soul"): Actually an umbrella term which covers a lot of dysfunctions - not just laziness. I picture him as a warrior similar to Ares from mythology: a powerful warrior, probably descended from nobility, who nevertheless ends up hiding behind his minions if he gets injured or can't win immediately.
Blu Death 10-02-05, 09:53 PM	Hey, great ideas guys. Sorry I was gone for a while and couldnt post. Anyways, sorry about not making it wrath. I love the idea of him just killing everything in sight and yelling for the pc to face him. Haha, will they run, or face the juggernaut. Anyways, lust I was thinking of being a succubus, but, humans might be better. One of those dancing girls like you mentioned, like from the Arabian Night books. (the classics, not Disney's Aladdin). Anyways, great Ideas. To let you know a little more information, Gluttony and Greed have offed one of the PCs and Pride might duel the bard during his concert. I have another question, what about working with each other. How do the assassins interact? I think Pride will work alone, and maybe wrath will too, but what about the others? Thanks for the help. This will be an awesome campain. EDIT: oops, didnt read everything you said Rumple. Wow, great stuff man. Very good. All the ideas seem good. I have a question for you too. Did you ever implement this material into your campain and, if so, how did it go? Keep the awesome posts rolling guys. This is great stuff.
Blu Death 10-02-05, 09:54 PM	Oh, and Rumple, I hope you dont think im stealing your ideas...I just thought they were soooooo cool. I hope you dont mind me twisting them a little... Thanks.
glennhefley 10-02-05, 10:15 PM	Sloth is inaction. Unable to move or perform when required to do so. Always putting something off rather than doing it now. With that in mind I think the assassin should either kill by these effects or promote this behavior. I would say that he is a sorcorer. Someone who has powerful sleep, charm and forget spells. By using these in minor ways, he creates resentment from the rest of the group, because the target is not holding up their end of the chores and needs. For example if the target is a ranger, and goes out to hunt for the group, he comes back with nothing, forgetting why he was out there. Signs are on him that he already ate. Make him sleep longer, fall asleep during watch.etc.. until the Group is use to him not coming back on time, or not showing up at all. Then the Assassin takes him out.
Blu Death 10-02-05, 10:20 PM	Nice, glenn. Maybe a sorc with a custom spell that causes them to become lazy. I like it. What do you guys think about Pride? It just seems like either that (a duelist bard) or a Paly. And by the way, Paladins can be convinced that what they are doing is good, thought it may be seen as evil. Thats what I never understood about Paladins, they could be Lawful "evil" if they think they are doing good for their god.
Rumple_Cragstan 10-02-05, 10:22 PM	Unfortunately, I never got to use them. I'm a perfectionist, I didn't use them because they where never 'completed' . But this upcoming campaign might be the right time. And no problem, go ahead and use them as I've set them.... if I didn't want people to use my ideas, I wouldn't be on these boards. Just be sure to tell me how it worked, and give me pointers on what you think worked well. And yeah, the succubus would work well for Lust. But if you where going to go human, I would say bard. She's just got a different kind of performing arts. Make her bisexual and give them a magic choker that she can alter her gender.
ytookay 10-02-05, 10:26 PM	My only constructive addition to this thread is that the OP should watch Se7en.
Blu Death 10-02-05, 10:30 PM	Yes. Ive heard of that movie. Acutally, my dad and I were talking about that an hour ago. I love how they incorperate wrath. ZING! Anyways, that is a very graphic movie...I dont know if everyone here is mature enough to see it. But, it does have lots of good ideas.
dan1234 10-02-05, 10:54 PM	Well if you do consider a sorcerer for Sloth, I really think (I am being 100% serious here) you should consider a Sloth for a familiar. He just hangs on his back or something.
Order 66(6) 10-02-05, 11:00 PM	Awesome. I once did an online RPG and had villians based after each of the seven deadly sins as well. I loved writing them as characters, and I really tried to tie them into their respective sins. Ultimately, my game was set in a modern setting, but the entities were all humans who became supernatural freaks, remade into powerful beings by my game's BBEG (essentially a demi-God) I'm not sure how much you could incorporate these themes into your game, but these were the angles I used. 1) Sloth: Sloth started out as kind of a lazy, poor, white trash alcoholic type who was too self absorbed to support his family financially or emotionally. He ultimately ended up killing his wife to stop her from harping on him to get a job. He was remade into a big, ugly, slow demonic looking brute. 2) Envy: A fairly unattractive girl who was extremely envious (imagine that!) of those who were more attractive than she. So bitter was she that she watched an attractive woman die, and actually gleaned satisfaction from it. She was remade into an attractive woman, but who could only maintain her vitality and attractiveness by spilling blood with a giant scythe, or else she would decompose. 3) Wrath: The only one that was never human. He was an amalgamation of the bodies and souls of a number of people that died terrible deaths fraught with fear and/or rage and/or desperation. 4) Lust: An attracive "black widow" thrill killer who killed those she had sex with. Was remade into something too weird to be replicated into D&D. :P 5)Pride: The depraved genius scientist who made the BBEG that I described in the first paragraph. He was of course exceedingly proud and arrogant, so naturally the BBEG turned on him and made him one of his 7 acolytes. He was turned into a pale, slim humanoid figure who could create illusions so powerful they could kill....but disbelief in the illusion left him completely powerless. 6) Gluttony: An obese serial killer who was fond of killing entire families and eating meals with them post-mortum so he could pretend they were the loving family he never had. He was remade into a huge barbarian powerhouse, but first had his own heart eaten out leaving a painful gaping hole that never healed. 7) Greed was a selfish corporate CEO who had his father bumped off so he could have complete control over the family business. He was turned into an armored humanoid that was always literally on fire to symbolize how his greed burned like an eternal flame. I'm not sure how applicable some of these designs are to D&D, but those were ideas I have used in the past to create villians based on the 7 Deadly Sins.
Blu Death 10-02-05, 11:43 PM	Almost sounds like something from Sin City.
Tevish Szat 10-03-05, 12:25 AM	a few ideas: Sloth: Sloth pased into undeath a while ago. he didn;t even notce it iat first, but when he got up to move after a rather long period of inactivity, Rigor Mortis was adding to his diffuculties. If you have the BoVD, Corpse Creature woudl be good, otherwise some other form of undead. maybe lich, but that whole ritual thign is way too much work... Wrath: Not just any barbarian, but a frenzied berserker (Complete warrior), filled with rage and bloodlust. Envy: Envy learned the magical arts to be abe to change himself and live the lives he so desired. he specializes in polymorphj spells and spells that help him aquire what he wants Lust: Enchanter, of course.
Kaligrad 10-03-05, 02:42 AM	I wonder why no one's mentioned Necromancer yet for sloth. After all, the spells of sloth--ray of fatigue/exhaustion, waves of fatigue/exhaustion-- are all necromantic spells. Also, since undead created by their master are eternally under their control, the necromancer would not have to lift a finger to do anything if he had enough zombies and skeletons, just so long as he adds, "...then return." to the ends of all of his commands. Just make sure you don't have them cook for you, or you'll find out the hard way what "rotting flesh chouder" really tastes like. *Shudder*
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-03-05, 03:09 AM	Am I the only one who thinks that the better way to go is to make them all Rogue/variant LG Assasins? Instead of themselves representing the seven deadly sins, they would all merely hunt down and brutally (and poetically) kill anyone who even dabbled in the seven deadly sins? Basically, they'd all be the villain from Se7en, but toss in an almost sociopathic devotion to good and perfection of the spirit... to the point that anyone remotely impure is deserving of a punishment that fits the sin.
Jancarius 10-03-05, 03:32 AM	Surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but Full Metal Alchemist has 7 characters who are named after the 7 deadly sins. Their apperance and personalities tend to attract to their sin. Gluttony: A short, fat, kind of stupid guy who will eat ANYTHING. He chews repeatedly through walls, metal, and people the Sins want to dissapear throughout the series. Lust: Though not so much assosciated with her namesake as the rest, she was definantly the hottest. Anyway, she could extend her nails out and impale people with them. She tended to manipulate events behind the scenes. Sloth: Was a kind of weird amorphus water creature that's default form was that of the main character's mother. Could hold other beings inside her and form tentacle like whips and spears out of her body that could extend pretty far. Served as the leader of the main country's secretary. Wrath: Was a creature from beyond the 'Gate' (a concept requiring way too much explanation for this topic), who hates the main character, whose arm and leg he took from him, which is why he is the only one of the Sins who can use Alchemy. Can combine his body with the enviroment (essentially can use any materials at hand to become natural-living armor for his body or weapons or whatever). Envy: The other 'son' of the main character's father, the Hohenheim of Light. Hates and envy's Ed (main character) for being the real son of Hohenheim. Can change his appearence at will, and is really strong. Greed: I believe he was supposed to be one of the first created. Anyway, he goes off totally on his own, away from the rest of the group, and is always trying to do his own thing. He can turn basically into an iron golem at will. The creator of the Sins eventually sets him up to be killed by Ed. Pride: Pride appears very early in the show, but it is not revealed he is Pride until about haflway through the series. Actually, it's not revealed till farther than that. But you could figure it out by then. He is much harder to kill than the rest of the Sins, and has a eye which grants him incredible perception and is a master swordsman. Just a thought on something you could check out. A D&D presentation not connected to FMA would be: The Sin Harvest Wrath: Frenzied Berserker. Let's give him a Zaraki Kenpachi personality - He wants to fight the PCs because he's heard they're powerful. He wants to prove he can kill them all and prove his power. Lust: High level rogue with an exotic weapon that is concealable in her hair, but she can fight effectivly with. Or just a glamored weapon in her hair that elongates to full size when she fights. I'm thinking Kiss Of the Dragon at the moment. But with a better looking girl. Probably works with Greed and Envy Sloth: A high level enchanter Sorcerer who hits the PCs with dominates and the like from concealment. Avoids direct confrontation whenever possible. Greed: Probably works with Envy and Lust, as these sins are rather linked in nature. Let's make him a Ninja. Envy: A changeling psion soudns good. Works with Greed and Lust to take the party's equipment to the extent possible before engaging them. IE: While Lust seduces the party's fighter into bed (with the help of Envy), Greed lifts as much of it as possible while Invisible. Gluttony: The flip side of Sloth. This man is probably a well connected merchant or noble. He sends minons and manipulates the law against the party. Never directly orders attacks, but weakens them for the other members of the Sin Harvest. If attacked directly, he is a powerful Cleric of a god of trickery, wealth, greed, gluttony, deceit, or corruption as appropriate. Pride: The leader of the group is a high level elf (Leshay?) Wizard. He is considerably more powerful than the rest (Epic?), and can handle most targets on his own, even without any help from the other 6 members of the Harvest. He is, as his name suggests, very arrogant. Sin Harvest almost always works as a group, working under Pride's direction to weaken a party and discredit them as much as possible before finishing them off. They destroy not only a party's lives, but their reputations. They may handle this many different ways, but typically, they use Lust, Envy, and Greed to relieve the party of equipment, to kill phyically weaker members of the party (like arcane casters, party's rogue), use Sloth and Envy to learn the party's weaknesses and strengths (through their mind control spells). Gluttony and Sloth also work together to frame the party for crimes, making innocent people convinced of their guilt, often using Envy when they need a victim and they do not wish to create an actual victim to be traced. Wrath and Pride are rarely brought into play before the final kill is made. The adventurers are 'allowed' to learn that the ones who have arranged the destruction of their life are plotting their next move in a particular location. It is of course, a trap, and the PCs are sealed into a area warded with Dimension Locks, Walls of Force, and forced to run a gauntlet of traps, and enchanted monsters and undead (3 high level casters worth of undead... could be nasty... especially if they create Vampires or other 'spawning' undead and command trees of undead through the head of the 'family'), before being trapped in a small room with Wrath, who frenzies immediatly. If they survive, Wrath is contingencied out of the room (this final area is NOT dimension locked) so that he won't die. From here, they have to face Envy, Lust, and Sloth at once, again with Contingent spells. The end room is Pride and Gluttony, who release the Dimension Locks and the monsters, and use their powers. Gluttony primarily summons and uses hirelings he's brought with him, while Pride shapechanges/polymorphs into the most powerful forms he's capable of. Alternativly, the entire Sin Harvest can fight the party at once. I can't forsee anything but something being seriously wrong if the PCs don't TPK here. The way I envision Sin Harvest, most of them are a few levels (3-5) above the PCs and Pride is maybe as many as 6 or 7 levels above the PCs.
The_Elder 10-03-05, 03:33 AM	These ideas may be a bit different - I'm basing them on Dante's interpretation of the sins. <SNIP> Sloth ("Failure to love God with all one's heart, all one's mind, and all one's soul"): Actually an umbrella term which covers a lot of dysfunctions - not just laziness. I picture him as a warrior similar to Ares from mythology: a powerful warrior, probably descended from nobility, who nevertheless ends up hiding behind his minions if he gets injured or can't win immediately. Ur-Prest any one? The:dice:Elder
Rumple_Cragstan 10-03-05, 12:31 PM	The origional concept from the first thread came from FullMetal Alchemist, and I developed it after a friend of mine suggested Se7en. Just for note, Se7en is a disturbed movie, and I would not suggest it to anyone without a really strong stomach. I nearly got sick twice. When I was watching it with my girlfriend (who also is fairly strong-stomached) we had to stop the movie twice because she was sure that she was going to get sick. Its not that its a gory movie, its just the ideas behind it are very twisted. However its on my list of best movies I've ever seen (right up there with Resevior Dogs and Advent Children), and I would reccomend it to everyone. And about the whole good-aligned thing, I would have to say no. Assassins cannot be good, that makes no sense. And the idea behind them destroying the sinners is also a flawed one - if you saw se7en, you know why. Because the seven sins are everywhere, they've become common and accepted. Unless you where to kill every Fat Person, every rich person, every arrogant pig, every ****, every person with an anger problem, every lazy bum, and anyone whos overly jealous, its a biased idea. And if you kill all those people, there's no possible way to retain a good alignment and a stable sanity score. Not to mention the fact that you'd wipe out at least a third of t he human population in the process.
Millennium 10-03-05, 01:52 PM	Lots of interesting ideas here. Here's an idea, though: do the assassins necessarily have to practice the sins they're named after, or might the sin describe their methods? Examples: Greed prefers to kill with traps. He studies his intended victims to find out what they want most, and uses that as the bait. Gluttony kills with ingested poisons. He puts small amounts in all of the food the person eats (not enough to kill individually, but adding up to a deadly dose over the course of a meal) in order to escape detection by food tasters. But if you eat the full meal, you're in trouble. Only once has his intended victim ever escaped, and that was because he got sick (for unrelated reasons) and couldn't finish the meal. Lust kills with a rare, fatal disease that he carries (but is immune to) and transmits to his victims (I leave it to you to guess how). Poisons are a more proven killing method, but when someone just gets sick and dies and there's no poison, how many people would attribute it to anything but bad timing? Envy stages apparent suicides. He never uses his own tools, instead turning the target's own possessions -or better yet, those of the target's rivals- against the target. Envy's brothers often try to make their killings look like accidents, but Envy takes a different tactic: he pins the crime on people who hated the victim. Just as anger leads its victims to do stupid things, Wrath is a master of causing "accidental" deaths. He's skilled at illusions and enchantments, and he often adds large amounts of alcohol to the mix. He leads his victims into situations where they're certain to die -such as walking off the roof of a castle, thinking they're just going into some other room- and then escapes. He leaves no marks on the victim, but there's a lot of alcohol in the victim's body, and so it's assumed to be just some unfortunate drunken accident. Pride, like Wrath, leads his targets to their own destruction, but his method is different. He looks into the pasts of his targets, and then challenges them to a duel as the representative for someone the target wronged in the past. He does this while posing as some third-rate fighter with a mouth bigger than his brain, but in truth he's an incredibly skilled master of many kinds of weapons. He never takes a target that he's not absolutely sure he can best in single combat, and he prefers to take victims in places where dueling is legal. Sloth kills through ability damage, perhaps accomplished through necromancy. He weakens his targets bit by bit over long periods of time, slowly enough that they don't even notice at first, and thus he escapes detection. By the time they do it's too late to do anything about it. It's a thought, anyway. This setup tends to require more role-playing than combat.
XIII 10-03-05, 03:17 PM	really useful, as i was starting a plot around the 7 sins :) Thanks!
Jalathas 10-03-05, 03:36 PM	Wow, this is an interesting idea here. I might end up using it for one of my campaigns. Here are some simple ideas from me. Sloth: A powerful wizard who sends minions against his enemies for as long as possible instead of attacking them outright. He may even be a Worm that Walks(Epic Level Handbook), having simply rested so long that worms devoured his body and absorbed his intellegice. When confronted, he probably uses sleep and damage to Str/Con to defeat his opponents. Pride: Opposite of Sloth, he confronts his opponents openly and arrogantly. He's a master swordsman, and has an intelligent sword with a high ego score. He challenges his targets one at a time, and fights them in one-on-one duels. He uses Power Attack and other bold tactics to win. Lust: Possibly a fiendish or half-fiend enchantress with levels in Fiend of Seduction(Fiend Folio). Seduces targets into doing her bidding, and attacking the other members of the party. When forced into a fight, she uses dominate person and similar abilities to make party members serve her. Wrath: There are two ways to go with this one. He could be a barbarian, as many people have suggested, or he could be a spellcater who incites wrath between or against his targets, causing old friends or random strangers to fight the target until one or the other is dead. Envy: Possibly a shapeshifter, using polymorph to take the form of his targets, being envious of their abilities. He would also attempt to replicate his opponent's weapons and items to use against them. Otherwise, he could cause jealousy between party members, causing them to desire eachothers' items until they kill eachother over them. Greed: One way to work this one is to have him be a rogue who steals all the party's equipment before attacking. In this case, he could work along with the shapeshifting Envy. The other option is to have him create greed amongst the party, making them fight over rewards and other objects. In this case, he could work with the second versions of Envy and Wrath. Gluttony: I left this one for last, because quite honestly, it's tough. Maybe a Worm that Walks would work here, too, because the worms devoured the corpse. Another idea is a druid who fights indirectly with swarms of hungry creatures, like vampire bats, rats, or locusts.
Slider33 10-03-05, 04:12 PM	Greed, gluttony, lust, envy, wrath, pride, and sloth Here's just some ideas. It can be tricky since these "sins" are from within a person, it's hard to portray them in an outside force, or so to speak. But here's my best shot. These individuals prey on one of the individual sins as a weakness and exploit them. Lust: femme-fatale or something like that. Lures a lustful person (seduction) into a private room, etc. then poisons them. Perhaps like a poisonous toxin on her lips or on her hands. Can kill with just a kiss. Pretty high level, assassin class with access to the deadliest contact poisons. Lots of cash to spend on such things. Deadly beauty type of thing would work. Employ some sort of protective material or magic item that keeps her from poisoning herself of course. Gluttony: An assassin who slips poison into food or beverages. Often hired as a waiter or a cook/chef who infiltrates such places ahead of time and poisons the food he cooks or delivers. He could be one of those methodical/planning types of assassins who you'd never know before it's too late. Kind of acts like a sleeper cell or something. Wrath: Powerful wizard or powerful fighter or barbarian. Someone with incredible straight-up combat prowress and destructive power. Non-sneaky type. The epitome of a wrathful person. Pride: Some kind of individual who's ultimate mission is to humiliate in the worst possible way. Could be a prankster type. Maybe someone who places curses on others, or tries to publicly humiliate, blackmail, or frame an individual and ruin them socially/physically/mentally/economically. Perhaps he/she tortures to do permanent disfigurement. Not necessarily a lethal killer, but it would be a very interesting NPC concept that causes a lot of problems for a lot of people. An "assassin" in many different senses. Envy and/or Greed: Takes your most prized possessions from you. Perhaps a high-level rogue type. A guy who would steal your most cherished heirloom, favorite weapon/armor, etc. He's a guy who would find out what you treasured most, and work to take it away, whatever it may be. Could be wealth, companionship, someone's wife/children. Could be a killer or a thief, depending on what the target cherishes. Sloth: Maybe this assassin likes to capture his prey and lock them away in a dungeon, leaving them there to rot without food or anything, with little or no chance of escape. This assassin would employ whatever means necessary to subdue and capture their target, then haul them away to rot in a cell somewhere. This is as close as I can come to "sloth"....that's a harder one....
Blu Death 10-03-05, 06:59 PM	Yes, lots of these ideas are very good. About the assassins having to be evil, in a way i disagree. Even though the prequisits say you have to be evil, a character should be allowed other alignments. Assassins can kill evil characters by doing something that evil assassins can do. Poisoning a drink, slitting a throat, etc. So, a good person should be allowed to have access to the sneaky cutthroat abilities that assassins have, as long as they use if for good. Like assassinating an evil king. Anyways, thats off topic. So far, Greed and Gluttony HAVE been met by the players. They are not truly hostile yet, they are just looking to have a debt payed off by the party rouge. (gambling addiction) The characters have to pay up soon and I already know that they would rather fight than pay a measley 3000gp. (level 5's) I have greed and gluttony's personality down...but how they fight in actual combat is different. Greed is a shifty eyed skinny man that the pcs met. He constantly flips a coin and carries a hidden dagger. He is a level 7 rouge. Him and gluttony have killed a major npc by tricking him into a trap using his greed then cutting out his eyes and replacing them with gold coins. Gluttony finished him off by suffacating him with food. Gluttony is a fat, red faced level 8 cleric that wheezes often (should imply some penalty to fighting). Now, the problem is, the characters are going to have to fight these characters soon if they dont pay up. So, how should these guys fight? I got their personalities, but what spells/tactics do they use in fights? Do they have minions? Etc...
Discordia 10-03-05, 07:29 PM	Greed is probably going to avoid straight combat. If he can't kill his target within a hit or two, he'll decide that it's not worth the effort and move on to the next. Additionally, he'll probably target the player with the most expensive-looking equipment. Gluttony will face the PCs, head on, but otherwise will fight similarly to Greed (i.e. focusing on the most impressive target). Any minions either one has will be brought along - ultimately, these aren't two assassins who revel in combat. If either nears death, he will attempt to flee, though Gluttony may attempt to bargain for his life.
Blu Death 10-03-05, 07:31 PM	Yeah, thats like what I was thinking. They will try to isolate one person at a time, attack, if it doesnt kill and sense that he is too powerful, then run.
Blu Death 10-03-05, 07:34 PM	Except gluttony, who cant run. Oh, I made a hugely fat person have these traits: -2 dex, +4 con Cannot Run Speed reduced by 10ft (min of 5) Treated as though large (-1 Ac, -1 att, double carrying limit) So, basically, his mobility is greatly limited.
Jalathas 10-03-05, 09:29 PM	Could a Cleric Gluttony use create food as a weapon? It says range is close. so could he possibly cause it to appear in an opponent's throat?
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-03-05, 11:18 PM	Lust is an Epic bard. Dominate, Suggestion, Charm, facinate -- she will own you.
Blu Death 10-04-05, 07:13 PM	Hmm... Lust = bard, shadowdancer, assassin I like...
Vaelan 10-04-05, 10:03 PM	My favorite contributions to the previous thread were the ones that used their sin against their victims instead of exhibiting the sin themselves. Unfortunately, they relied mostly on the PCs not being extremely paranoid. This is rather unlikely by the time the fifth or sixth assassin takes his shot at them and survival seems to be a statistical impossibility in some cases. Lust does the whole succubus thing. Gluttony is a chemist whose favored method of killing is a nearly-undetectable poison he invented that has no primary effect and a minor secondary effect that takes hours to work. A four-course feast properly "seasoned" will likely force several dozen Fortitude saves and end in the death of everyone who partakes of it. Pride is a Fighter under the effects of mind blank or a powerful nondetection spell. He masquerades as the younger sibling of someone the party has slain and challenges one of them to a duel under the conditions that no magic items are used, as he wishes the duel to be fair. Assuming nobody sees through his deception, the party will likely think of him as a nonthreat and agree to the duel. Naturally, the mind blank or nondetection is hiding the fact that all of his equipment, which doesn't even appear to be masterwork unless closely inspected by a knowledgable person, is magical and he has several beneficial spells cast upon him with 24-hour durations. Wrath is a Frenzied Berserker. He infiltrates the party and waits until everyone is asleep. In their vulernable state, he uses Inspire Frenzy and wakes everyone up. They proceed to beat each other senseless under the effects of Frenzy while Wrath breaks his Frenzy. A Wizard hireling drops a few spells like mind fog on the group and uses a Bracelet of Friends to take Wrath out of the melee. Once they are weakened, Wrath comes back under the effects of an invisibility spell to finish them off. Sloth is a (Warforged) Bard with a scythe. He infiltrates the party and insists upon doing everything for them. He sets up camp in the evening and breaks it in the morning, feeds the horses, starts the fire, cooks dinner, and takes watch. He waits until the party is so content to let him do all of the work that they just let him take watch as well. At this point, he casts Silence and proceeds to slaughter the entire party. Excellent ideas for Greed and Envy were posted before, but I can't find the thread and don't remember them very well.
Jancarius 10-04-05, 10:24 PM	Awesome Sloth idea there.
Blu Death 10-05-05, 01:26 AM	I love the sloth idea...wow, thats great. So I got to choose now, should I have the assassins show the trait (gluttony is fat, pride is prideful, etc.), or should they kill people by using the trait (greed sets traps for people wanting gold, sloth kills people not willing to do work in above post, etc.) or should it be mix? Thanks for the help guys.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-05-05, 03:04 AM	And about the whole good-aligned thing, I would have to say no. Assassins cannot be good, that makes no sense. And the idea behind them destroying the sinners is also a flawed one - if you saw se7en, you know why. Because the seven sins are everywhere, they've become common and accepted. Unless you where to kill every Fat Person, every rich person, every arrogant pig, every ****, every person with an anger problem, every lazy bum, and anyone whos overly jealous, its a biased idea. And if you kill all those people, there's no possible way to retain a good alignment and a stable sanity score. Not to mention the fact that you'd wipe out at least a third of t he human population in the process. The good-alligned thing makes as much sense as Christians of the era believing that the Crusades were not only "good" and "just", but ordained by God. Think of the assasin PrC not as a ruthless killer for hire- and ONLY that... Think of it as a set of useful abilities that can be useful for a variety of different roles in the game... even a killer who believes that what he is doing is not only not half bad, but just and necessary. Sure, it's not the RAW, but it's a handy way to get a storyline effect in the game without having to pore over ten books to find a way to get the blood spray just right. And no one ever said good had to be sane. Simply put, if a character believes that killing every evil person in the world is good- even if it results in killing EVERY PERSON in the world, and then himself- then the character, IMO the character is "good"... Although clearly freakin' nuts. Yes, I've seen Se7en. Great movie, creeped the hell out of me. I couldn't sleep a full eight without waking up in a cold sweat five times over for a week. Just imagine doing that to your players... And imagine the stories they'll tell about your skill as DM ten years from now. "I swear to the Powers that Be that I couldn't sleep right for a week without dreaming about what that assasin did to that greedy bastard..." [DISCLAIMER] Most of my thoughts on allignment are not supported by D&D's allignment system as proposed in the PHB or in any WotC material that I'm aware of, and therefore any advice of mine that you accept with regard to allignment is therefore a House Rule. It is, however, GREAT at having good villains against a good party with good victims in between. After all, when it's just as easy to identify with the villain as the victim, the characters have a certain moral dilemma to resolve. In fact, there's a whole school of thought that for a villain to be truly developed, one must be able to identify with it.
Millennium 10-05-05, 06:43 AM	Another possible method for Sloth: rather than directly killing his foes, he uses constant applications of spells like crushing despair to drive them to suicide. He escapes detection by never actually laying a hand on his victims, and yet in some ways he's the nastiest of all of them: his victims die in misery, over a more drawn-out period than any of the others.
HamHam 10-05-05, 11:18 AM	Inspired by this thread, I decided to have a go at embodying the seven sins. Now, these aren't so much assasins, rather they are all demons or part-demons. Just throwing it out there really: Lust and Envy are twin Succubi. Lust is a bard who uses her bardic talents to help in the seduction of people and then kills them with her Energy Drain. Envy on the other hand has all five levels of Warshaper and focuses instead on using her polymorph to impersonate people for various purposes. Should it come down to a fight, Envy will use her Warshaper powers plus turning into something mean like an orc or gnoll and tank while Lust hangs back and throws spells at the party (mostly charm this, dominate that, etc). Gluttony is a fully advanced Large Half-Fiend Gibbering Mouther. He has a human form (which is obviously fat) but transforms into his true form if confronted by strong opposition. At which point he does everything he can to eat you. Wrath is a Fiendish Human Fighter, Barbarian, Frenzied Berserker. Deathless Rage makes for a really really annoying fight. Greed is a Fiendish Young Adult Red Dragon. His natural draconic greed has been twisted by his fiendish blood into avarice for not only gold but human souls and suffering. He spends most of his time in human form attempting to worm his way into positions of power so that he can corrupt entire nations. If he sees something shiny he wants, he sends Retrievers to collect it for him. If confronted, he transforms and does his whole dragon thing on the party. Sloth... is a Half-fiend Elder Black Pudding. It seems innocious at first... but it has the special power to double it's size every hour (or day depending on just how slothful you want it to be). Before long it will be the size of Rhode Island. It won't bother coming after you, it's too lazy for that. Instead, it will grow and grow until you have no place left to run. Finally, the leader of the group will be Pride, a Balor. Being Pride, he won't believe anyone to be a threat and will reamin in denial while you take out the other Sins, infiltrate his stronghold, right up to the point where you actually bash down the door to his throne room. At which point he'll get really angry and charge boldly into battle.
wrecan 10-05-05, 11:59 AM	Personally, I would make the characters represent exactly what is insidious and evil about each of these deadly sins. A lot of people are proposing what appear to be fairly cartoonish versions of the sins. I'll skip Greed and Gluttony since those have been introduced. SLOTH: This assassin is a strategic genius and a chess grandmaster. He manipulates events through cronies and pawns so that his prey is disoriented and confused and defenseless and then lures him into a trap in a place where the Sloth is most comfortable. By the time the prey meets the Sloth, and sees his face, it is too late. The prey is caught and soon will be dead. If the prey outsmarts the Sloth, the Sloth ensures that nothing can be traced back to him. Based on Keyser Soze from the The Usual Suspects. Sloth should be a wizard/rogue with a very versatile spellbook. All spells are carefully chosen for the specific prey. ENVY: This assassin gets into the head of his victim, determines the victim's innermost desires and needs and then uses them to get the victim to lower his guard. He constructs elaborate mind games in which the victim willingly relinquishes his own safety for some ephemeral goal. When Envy arrives to finally stick the dagger in the heart, the victim is almost ready to bare his chest. Based on the anonymous corporation in The Game. Envy is a psion who specializes in illusions. PRIDE: This assassin is a paradox. He takes out his victims by making them overestimate their own abilities. If he sent after a fighter, he takes him down with physical combat. If sent after a wizard, a spell will do him in. Pride spends his time on observations and preparation and then chooses a minion perfect for the task at hand, equipping it with magic items designed for the hit. Based on Don Corleone from the Godfather. Pride should be a sorcerer who specializes in Summoner and has all the necessary Metamagic Feats to maxmize summoning capacity. He also uses his wealth to purchase information on his target and to buy magic items specially designed not only to kill his target but to first discredit and humiliate him. He is most often retained by politicians. WRATH: This assassin is a duelist extraordinaire. Unlike those who skulk in the night, he appears at first honorable and challenges the target to a duel. But Wrath has done his research and knows the target's emotional weak points. Throughout the course of the duel, he demoralizes the opponent by revealing that he has placed the target's loved one's in peril. He insults the target's intelligence and honor. One the target is enraged, the target becomes sloppy and Wrath then moves for the swift kill. Based on the Deathstrike character from DC Comics. Wrath is a member of the Duelist Prestige Class who might also have a few levels as a Psion Empath. LUST: Lust benefits from her mark's exhaustion. She lets the target know she is after him and then deceives the targte with red herrings and tantalizing but false clues that cause the target to expend valuable resources, to alienate his allies, to make him paranoid, to cause others (and even himself) to question his sanity, and finally to physically exhaust him. By the time she appears to her mark, his spirit has already been bested and any resistance is token at best. Based on Mystique from Marvel Comics. She should be a Monk with keen intelligence, a cloak of invisibility and keen reflexes.
Rumple_Cragstan 10-05-05, 12:49 PM	I love your idea of Sloth, Wrecan. Its very close to my idea, but you did it much better. I would say that yours is the best one so far. Envy is genius. Pure genius. I don't know about illusion spells though.... just dosn't seem to fir quite right. I would say that a Rogue would do the best here. I liked where you where going with pride, but you quickly turned off track. I like the idea of making the players overstep thier boundries. I would say not to do it exactly like you suggested.... I would prefer more of a lure. The assassin would be someone who looks weak, and acts weak. He plays up the idea that he's a new addition to the buissiness. Then when the fighter draws his dagger to deal with the problem, rather than his trusted longsword, the assassin makes swift work of the cocky fool. Wrath is a sound concept in real life, unfortunately there's no 'enraged' ailment in the D&D game. A barbarian's rage is close, but its not a good idea to bring that wrath upon yourself. In real life, anger causes people to overextend themselves, and they take risks that normally they wouldn't take. But if you try to dock the PC some of its AC because he's mad, I guaruntee that the Player will be the one angry. I like Lust, though I'd make a single addition. The target gets so stressed out, and so paranoid, that eventually they'll crack. So have the assassin be waiting there, ready to 'relieve some stress' from the PC. yeah.. he'll be relaxed. But only after Rigomortis(sp?) wears off.
wrecan 10-05-05, 02:44 PM	Thanks, Rumple! It's a fun project. I liked your ideas a lot as well. As for Wrath, the quick mechanical way to register sloppiness caused by anger is to simply give him a few levels level as Psychic Warrior and give him Strength of My Enemy and similar powers. As for Envy's illusions, it's a cheap way mechanically for the assassin to tempt the player with anything for which he would be willing to sacrifice his own safety. In some ways, I envision Envy as himself having few possessions of his own, which increases the irony of having his victim's be brought down by their own materialism. I do like your idea of Pride and it was where I was headed, but I couldn't figure out an appropriate way to represent that ability. Perhaps a new Feat called "Opportunism" in which a fighter gets an AoO whenever his opponent advances on him? That seems too harsh. I like your addition to Lust. Heck, make her a poisoner, who coats her own lips in a Ravage that will affect her victim, but not her.
Jancarius 10-05-05, 11:12 PM	Good aligned assassins? Slayers of Domiel, I believe, from Exalted Deeds. Opportunism would be WAY too ridiculously powerful. Hell, I might even have my Wizard take it if it was available, to say nothing of my Spiked Chain fighter.
Rumple_Cragstan 10-06-05, 11:52 AM	Once again, I stand by my idea of "Good Aligned Assassins are BUNK". For opportunist, I would say it makes a good feat. It would have Combat Expertise, Hold the line, and CombaT Reflexes as prerequisites. The effect could be one of two things: 1 - Whenever an enemy makes a full attack action, it provokes an attack of opportunity from you. 2 - An enemy provokes an attack of opportunity by moving into your threat range. Not sure which one would work best, but its a good idea I think. And the Lust poisoned lips... lol reminds me of Poison Ivy from Batman. Make her a multiclassed rogue/druid.
Rumple_Cragstan 10-06-05, 11:52 AM	Post Delete Please, it's a double post.
wrecan 10-06-05, 12:27 PM	And the Lust poisoned lips... lol reminds me of Poison Ivy from Batman. Make her a multiclassed rogue/druid. Why should she be a druid? The character concept only borrows a poison kiss from Poison Ivy. Lust would certainly not be an ecoterrorist. That would be like requiring anybody who gets a permanent haste spell to wear red spandex.
Blu Death 10-06-05, 11:29 PM	mmm...red spandex. Anyways, these are great ideas. Thanks for the help. And I always thought hold the line was when someone moves into your threatened square... am I wrong? Is it for charging only?
Blu Death 10-08-05, 03:16 PM	so sad, the post died...oh well, thanks for the help
Rumple_Cragstan 10-08-05, 06:00 PM	Oh, Hold the Line is only when someone charges you. even with that, its still a nice feat.
da beast 10-08-05, 10:56 PM	Lots of interesting ideas here. Here's an idea, though: do the assassins necessarily have to practice the sins they're named after, or might the sin describe their methods? Examples: Greed prefers to kill with traps. He studies his intended victims to find out what they want most, and uses that as the bait. Gluttony kills with ingested poisons. He puts small amounts in all of the food the person eats (not enough to kill individually, but adding up to a deadly dose over the course of a meal) in order to escape detection by food tasters. But if you eat the full meal, you're in trouble. Only once has his intended victim ever escaped, and that was because he got sick (for unrelated reasons) and couldn't finish the meal. Lust kills with a rare, fatal disease that he carries (but is immune to) and transmits to his victims (I leave it to you to guess how). Poisons are a more proven killing method, but when someone just gets sick and dies and there's no poison, how many people would attribute it to anything but bad timing? Envy stages apparent suicides. He never uses his own tools, instead turning the target's own possessions -or better yet, those of the target's rivals- against the target. Envy's brothers often try to make their killings look like accidents, but Envy takes a different tactic: he pins the crime on people who hated the victim. Just as anger leads its victims to do stupid things, Wrath is a master of causing "accidental" deaths. He's skilled at illusions and enchantments, and he often adds large amounts of alcohol to the mix. He leads his victims into situations where they're certain to die -such as walking off the roof of a castle, thinking they're just going into some other room- and then escapes. He leaves no marks on the victim, but there's a lot of alcohol in the victim's body, and so it's assumed to be just some unfortunate drunken accident. Pride, like Wrath, leads his targets to their own destruction, but his method is different. He looks into the pasts of his targets, and then challenges them to a duel as the representative for someone the target wronged in the past. He does this while posing as some third-rate fighter with a mouth bigger than his brain, but in truth he's an incredibly skilled master of many kinds of weapons. He never takes a target that he's not absolutely sure he can best in single combat, and he prefers to take victims in places where dueling is legal. Sloth kills through ability damage, perhaps accomplished through necromancy. He weakens his targets bit by bit over long periods of time, slowly enough that they don't even notice at first, and thus he escapes detection. By the time they do it's too late to do anything about it. It's a thought, anyway. This setup tends to require more role-playing than combat. These are my favorites
Vestigial_Thumb 10-09-05, 10:19 AM	The Seven Deadly Sins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_Deadly_Sins) Lust: I think a bard is appropriate. She seduces the weakest of the party (often the fighter) and slowly turns them against the rest of the party ("she's my girlfriend, so she has to come first"). Gluttony: If you want them to inspire sins, go right ahead and make them poison everyone and everything. I think he should drain the PCs of their power, causing negative levels and Con/Str damage (Gravetouched Ghoul cleric with Hunger and Deathbound Domains?) Avarice: He/she steals the PCs' equipment and plants equipment that's useful to at least two of the party members to make them fight over it. OR he/she could steal equipment and not replace it, but planting it in another PC's possession. Of course, when the PCs are dead (if?) he takes their equipment and sells it. When he's not attacking, robbery/homicides become more frequent. Sloth: This is a hard one. Maybe a powerful sorcerer/wizard that casts waves of exhaustion/fatigue and swarms the PCs with minions, only to fight if and when his minions are all dead. Wrath: How about this: A Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker that turns peasants into raving lunatics (Mob Template from DMG II). The PCs get swarmed by their own fellow-citizens. Envy: This one might kidnap one of the PCs and take on his/her identity. Pushing or tricking other party members into traps that get them members killed Envy: "Oh, no. Now he's dead and it's all my fault" Party Rogue: It's alright. Don't beat yourself up about it. Envy: Yes... Pride: An insanely powerful Swashbuckler/Bard type that fights man to man, one on one. His greatest weakness, of course is his pride (low Will Save).
Vestigial_Thumb 10-10-05, 01:29 PM	Once again I have awed you people with my vast, vast intellect and superiority. Vast. Anyway... :bump:
Rumple_Cragstan 10-10-05, 03:17 PM	My vote is still for Wrecan. His idea is solid, and if I ever actually use this idea IMC, it will be his concepts.
periscope 03-23-06, 04:04 AM	Have any of you seen this? http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=437446&page=1&pp=30
Luminosity 03-23-06, 06:47 AM	Envy is a ghost that posesses and controls mortals because he desparately wants to feel alive again. He hates the living because they take life for granted, so he finds the happiest people he can and forces them to kill their loved ones. Then he leaves, satisfied that he has taught his victim a lesson about life.
periscope 03-24-06, 02:42 AM	Order 66(6)? what was the name of that RPG that had those villians in it? sounds like the kind of game I might like.