Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aladdar 05-18-05, 12:30 PM	Can anyone tell me how this compares to other point buy methods and what are your favorites with advantages and disadvantages of each. 78 point buy: You can spend as many points as you want in each stat. The minimum stat score is 3 *after* racial modifiers, and the maximum stat score is 18 *before* racial modifiers. This is to make sure characters have the same raw ability basis. Example: Gruk, Mountain Orc Barbarian STR: 18 (+4 = 22) CHA: 8 (-2 = 6) INT: 5 (-2 = 3) WIS: 14 (-2 = 12) DEX: 15 CON: 18 Total: 78 before racial modifiers
Draco Strang 05-18-05, 12:36 PM	Well, 78 is a lot of damn points. Any decent min-maxxer (or player who's not a moron) will either have an uber-one stat character (if you don't cap them at 18 for the initial stat) or a really well balanced character that is fairly excellent at anything they do (the straight 16 kinda guy). I've never played that high, but I do know that if you don't want them rolling through every encounter appropriate to their CR, you'll have to give them more enemies, tougher enemies, or more creative enemies. Just requires more work on the DM's part, that's all.
snowlynx 05-18-05, 12:39 PM	Ah, I see what you're doing now. I use that for my players, but they don't min/max. I like it. It allows for customization without really having to do a whole lot of thinking about it. I don't think I'd allow someone to spend less then 7 points in a stat, though....probably because I am picky. (my players haven't ever asked to spend less then 9 in a stat; none of them want a bad stat, I guess.) The standard system in the D&D book makes it more expensive to buy up high stats, and all stats start at 8. I'd imagine this is well in favor of folks who spead out their points, since it costs more points to have a good score then it does to have a medicore score. I sort of like this standard point buy system for games with one of my gaming groups: I am tired of being the only one that didn't roll at least one 18, one 17, and one 16. (The other players prefer rolling stats, because they always roll so high, and the point buy system means they can't have such high stats.)
Mirikon 05-18-05, 04:40 PM	Actually, what I think he's talking about is having 78 points, starting at 0, and you buy on a 1/1 basis. You gotta end up with at least a 3 in each stat, post-racial mods, and you can't have more than 18 in a stat, pre-racial mods. Sounds balanced to me. In fact, I've used this before. 78 points is enough to make a character from pretty much any class, and have them be decent. 78/6=13, so the 'all 16s' objection is out. As for being able to get an 18 easily, well, if you're a caster or an archer, you need an 18 in at least one stat, really. Just makes everything easier.
Aladdar 05-18-05, 04:43 PM	I'm using it for the first time in my current campaign. I had never heard of it when the DM first introduced it, but it seems to work well. And yes, you're correct, it's a 1-1 buy with the rules as you read them. I'm just wondering how it compares to other point buy methods as before I've always rolled up my character the old fashioned dice way.
snowlynx 05-18-05, 04:50 PM	The other point buy systems make you pay more points for high stats, relatively (upgrading a 9 to a 10 costs on point, but upgrading a 16 to a seventeen costs three points.)
Mirikon 05-18-05, 05:20 PM	Honestly, I prefer a dual system. Do the normal 4d6, drop the lowest system, but have the 78 point buy waiting in the wings, if you don't like your rolls. This way, you are pretty much guaranteed a character that is playable. And please, spare me the crap about straight 10 and 11 stat characters being playable. You know what I mean.
Fixxxer 05-18-05, 05:53 PM	The other point buy systems make you pay more points for high stats, relatively (upgrading a 9 to a 10 costs on point, but upgrading a 16 to a seventeen costs three points.) This is how I prefer point buy. A 1:1 ratio doesn't increase the difficulty of advancing stats to higher numbers, so there's no incentive not to. A system like what snowlynx is describing, on the other hand, forces a player to consider that an extra point in STR means he's giving up three points elsewhere.
astute1 05-18-05, 05:58 PM	I guess if you don't mind all your players looking like 18, 18, 18, 11, 5, 6 then it's not a big deal. Because that's what you're going to get unless your players are very "character" focused and less "rules" focused. The style of games my group runs, we would make combat heavies with those rules. That's why I prefer the standard point buy. It forces people to make important balancing decisions about their stats. You can still min-max, but the increasing points costs for high stats mean that you're really giving something up to get an 18.
Aladdar 05-18-05, 06:03 PM	what if you raised the minimum to a higher level or something of the like so that you couldn't have a dump stat of 3 and then 3 18's? Just curious.
astute1 05-18-05, 06:07 PM	It doesn't matter. In any system where the costs of higher stats don't scale upwards, there's no incentive not to shoot straight towards 18's. The simple fact is that the higher stats are worth the increased values. They aren't simply one point better in terms of how they affect an overall character build.
Mirikon 05-18-05, 06:07 PM	I guess if you don't mind all your players looking like 18, 18, 18, 11, 5, 6 then it's not a big deal. Because that's what you're going to get unless your players are very "character" focused and less "rules" focused. The style of games my group runs, we would make combat heavies with those rules. That's why I prefer the standard point buy. It forces people to make important balancing decisions about their stats. You can still min-max, but the increasing points costs for high stats mean that you're really giving something up to get an 18. First, those add up to 76. Second, if someone handed me a charsheet like that, I would laugh, and allow them to do that, with the foreknowledge that they would most likely be making up a new char shortly. Granted, the campaigns I've been involved in all tended to be high RP games, so character issues came before 'rules' issues. And frankly, I prefer it that way. You couldn't pay me enough to play a PC with one score below 8, much less 2, not even if the rest were 18s.
Aladdar 05-18-05, 06:11 PM	But if the two systems both come out to about equal stat arrays it's only a matter of psychology. That's where I'm curious. I've never played with the other point buy methods and I'm curious as to how the stat array differences would be between them. I'm not arguing that this is the way to go, I'm just trying to see the difference between the 2 of them. Do the stat arrays have the same chance of coming out similar on both or is there a considerable difference. I guess I should sit down and just roll up some stat arrays using all the systems. Can anyone point me to the different point buy costs and accepted totals?
Fixxxer 05-18-05, 06:14 PM	what if you raised the minimum to a higher level or something of the like so that you couldn't have a dump stat of 3 and then 3 18's? Just curious. astute1 is right. There's no incentive not to place points as needed to increase individual scores. If there's nothing stopping someone from jacking one or two scores up to 18, they'll do it. If, however, you have a scale that increases the amount of points they have to spend to get the payout of an increased score, then there's some incentive to either not do it or to think long and hard before you do it.
Mirikon 05-18-05, 06:43 PM	astute1 is right. There's no incentive not to place points as needed to increase individual scores. If there's nothing stopping someone from jacking one or two scores up to 18, they'll do it. If, however, you have a scale that increases the amount of points they have to spend to get the payout of an increased score, then there's some incentive to either not do it or to think long and hard before you do it. There's plenty stopping people from jacking up scores. STR: Wizard and Sorcerer are the only classes that can really get by with negatives here, and even here it would hurt them, badly, when they get into melee. Especially in the first few levels, when a skeleton can kill a mage in one attack if its lucky. Having the quarterstaff that bypasses DR becomes less effective when you're taking a -2 on the attack and damage rolls. DEX: Ref saves, and AC. Ever class suffers from bad dex. And if they're not suffering from it, then the DM is craptacular. CON: Beyond Fort saves, do I really need to tell you why a bad score in this is bad? INT: Skill points, languages learned, etc. Stupid chars will get into trouble all on their own. WIS: Will saves. Anyone who dumps wis in a campaign i'm in will become intimately familiar with the workings of Charm, Hold, and Dominate spells. CHA: Bad CHA means people don't like you. Tack on huge fees for doing anything. And the city guard thinks you're suspicious.
Sildatorak 05-18-05, 07:00 PM	Do the stat arrays have the same chance of coming out similar on both or is there a considerable difference. I guess I should sit down and just roll up some stat arrays using all the systems. Can anyone point me to the different point buy costs and accepted totals? I don't know exactly what the distribution for 4d6 drop low ends up being, but I'd wager that a significant majority of ability scores end up between 8-14 with more outliers above that range than below it. Here are some samples of point buys (using the term to mean a start at 8 system where increasing a stat costs whatever the current modifier is (minimum of one) 25 points: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 (which cost 8, 6, 5, 4, 2, 0 respectively) 28 points: 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 (this power level is about what 4d6 drop low produces) 30 points: 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 30 points: 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 8 32 points: 16, 16, 14, 10, 10, 8 32 points: 16, 16, 14, 14, 10, 8 32 points: 18, 16, 14, 8, 8, 8 32 points: 18, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8 36 points: 18, 16, 14, 10, 10, 8 If I were attempting to produce a solid character using the 78 points of stats you've described I woul first start off with straight 13's and then go from there. Depending on how many solid stats I need to run my character well it would look pretty different. I'd imagine that almost all characters that are dependent on fewer than 4 stats will have at least one 18 if they can afford to have an 8 in something else.
Sildatorak 05-18-05, 07:10 PM	There's plenty stopping people from jacking up scores. STR: Wizard and Sorcerer are the only classes that can really get by with negatives here, and even here it would hurt them, badly, when they get into melee. Especially in the first few levels, when a skeleton can kill a mage in one attack if its lucky. Having the quarterstaff that bypasses DR becomes less effective when you're taking a -2 on the attack and damage rolls. DEX: Ref saves, and AC. Ever class suffers from bad dex. And if they're not suffering from it, then the DM is craptacular. CON: Beyond Fort saves, do I really need to tell you why a bad score in this is bad? INT: Skill points, languages learned, etc. Stupid chars will get into trouble all on their own. WIS: Will saves. Anyone who dumps wis in a campaign i'm in will become intimately familiar with the workings of Charm, Hold, and Dominate spells. CHA: Bad CHA means people don't like you. Tack on huge fees for doing anything. And the city guard thinks you're suspicious. STR: arcane casters don't need it except at low levels and when grappled and rogues or monks can get away with an 8 in it if they pick up weapon finesse DEX: quite important CON: past a certain point it doesn't matter to lower it any more, but that will cripple your character by leaving him at 1 hp/level INT: a -1 in this is the same as a -4 in this to a fighter (outside of roleplaying being severely challenged) WIS: a single feat gets around the will save dilemma (of course then you're reliant on CHA for them), but you will still suck at spot and listen CHA: you just need a face for the group...additional fees when the fighter tries to buy something don't matter if the 18 CHA bard is doing the smooth talking and the 6 CHA fighter keeps his mouth shut
astute1 05-18-05, 07:13 PM	With 78 point buy, as suggested by the original poster, you can get the following stat array: 18, 16, 14, 10, 10, 10 - this is equivalent to a 38 point buy under the usual system. It's pretty much perfect for any class. You couls also get: 18, 18, 14, 10, 10, 8 - equivalent to a 42 point buy (and far superior to the 38 point varient). You could also get 18, 18, 18, 8, 8, 8 - (under the normal rules, this is a 48 point buy). Put an 18 in str, dex, and con, and 8 int, wis, and charisma - that's one good fighter. See where this is going? Also, we should note that every class does not need every stat - druids don't really need physical stats at all after they get the ability to wild shape.
deadDMwalking 05-18-05, 07:40 PM	I don't think there is anything wrong with this form of point buy. At least, not inherently. Yes, in this version most everyone will choose to begin with at least one 18. A rare few will choose to have more than one 18. I'm guessing that your DM chose these numbers with the following "default array" - 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8. We'll call these the "base scores". If you want to bring your 8 up to a 10, you'll have to bring another score down. So, 18, 16, 14, 10, 10, 10 is possible. If you would like to bring another score up to an 18, you can. 18, 18, 12, 10, 10, 10. These scores aren't spectacular, but they are very good. It is something like an elite array, but it provides more flexibility. Sometimes you have to be very good at two different things (like the Mystic Theurge). So, I don't think there is a real problem with it. I do think that just about everyone will choose to have an 18, and the system is built for it. I generally find that players aren't really happy unless they have one 18. There has been a noticeable power creep in the game, and it isn't going away. Most people feel that if your highest score is a 15 the character is unplayable. And in high-level play that is probably true PARTICULARLY for spell-casters. So, I like it. I don't see a real problem with it. Yes, it is generous. It might not be better than you could roll without a point-buy. But there isn't anything wrong with it.
Mirikon 05-18-05, 09:29 PM	Well put, deadDMwalking. Some people like low-powered, low-level games. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not one of them. Its one of the reasons I prefer the more highpowered Realms to Eberron, and why I always prefer a game to start around 5th level. I just prefer the epic saga type high fantasy, where you are doing things that sound like they're from the Lord of the Rings.
Aladdar 05-18-05, 11:48 PM	thanks for the input guys, I was really wanting to see what other traditional point buys it could compare to as all I was really familiar other than that was roll 4 drop lowest.
Nom 05-19-05, 12:24 AM	When considering alternative ability score generation methods, make sure you check out the start of chapter 6 in the DMG. It lists a number of alternative methods, including "elite array" and the D&D standard point buy method.
FriendoftheDork 05-19-05, 04:59 AM	I prefer point buy as I think 18s should be fairly rare. When every PC has at least one 18 it's no big thing really. That way, playing races such as half.orc and elf becomes much better as they allow 18s much cheaper than normally. About how much point buy you want to give is a matter of how much power campaign you want. 25-point buy is fine in a standard D&D game where the PCs are expected to get stat-boosting items and spells, and a 5th level NPC is supposed to be a "challenge" for a 5th level party. Many prefer at least 28 as this make more rounded character that doesen't have to min-max that much or accept lower than average ability scores. 30-36 makes for high-powered campaigns where the PCs should face CRs higher than party level almost as a norm. This is also better for campaign where magic items is very rare, although that will favor spellcasters alot. Anything over 36-point buy makes for silly characters that are top at everything. When rolling I've tried 4d6, two arrays and my own 3d6 reroll ones (which produced suprisingly good rolls!). Rolling is fun for the players, but leads to inequal characters stat-wise so I prefer point-buy really.
Nom 05-19-05, 07:33 AM	I generally agree with FriendoftheDork's sentiments, except for this one:Many prefer at least 28 as this make more rounded character that doesen't have to min-max that much or accept lower than average ability scores.My experience has been that 28 points actually enhances min-maxing. 25 points is not really enough to allow for one really high score (or two moderately high scores) without crippling the character. Putting even a 16 in a single score reduces the remaining scores to an average of 11. In contrast, 28 points is just enough to make an 18 viable without leaving the character a 1 trick wonder. In my opinion, the 25 point mark is sufficient to allow a generally good character - a nice balance point. 28 is a little generous, and 30 is definitely generous. You need to make the call for your games, however, depending on the style of play that you and your players enjoy. Be ready to correct CRs and XP awards if you go much over 25 points equivalent, however.
Quenditar 05-19-05, 09:33 AM	I generally agree with FriendoftheDork's sentiments, except for this one:My experience has been that 28 points actually enhances min-maxing. 25 points is not really enough to allow for one really high score (or two moderately high scores) without crippling the character. Putting even a 16 in a single score reduces the remaining scores to an average of 11. In contrast, 28 points is just enough to make an 18 viable without leaving the character a 1 trick wonder. In my opinion, the 25 point mark is sufficient to allow a generally good character - a nice balance point. 28 is a little generous, and 30 is definitely generous. You need to make the call for your games, however, depending on the style of play that you and your players enjoy. Be ready to correct CRs and XP awards if you go much over 25 points equivalent, however. Interesting, considering that from the games I've been in and some statistical analysis which I haven't been able to replicate, the average rolled character, discarding unplayable ones (as defined by the DMG), is 30-32 point buy. In my current game, the weakest character is 28 point buy equivalent. I can understand using a lower point buy to compensate for the greater control offered, but I can't think of any case in which I would prefer 25-point buy over rolling the dice; the odds of getting at least one 15+ are quite good (and the character won't be otherwise crippled), and 25 points aren't sufficient for a concept that relies on two or more good stats anyhow. My other group normally uses rolled stats with DM arbitration; if a character looks too powerful an 18 is made a 16, if a character looks too weak an 11 is made a 15, etc. It's actually quite effective and preserves the fun of rolling while keeping the power spread from becoming a severe problem.
Lord of the Underdark 05-19-05, 09:46 AM	Typically, I only use point buys with people who will actually get around to creating a PC, not sit around and rearrange the numbers for a week. When faced with this situation I use the standard roll 4d6 drop the lowest. If I'm looking for an uberpowered, supermunchkin, Monty Hall campaign... I use 12+1d6. That way the absolute minimum score would be a 13. But, typically this is for "one shoot adventures" that are really just for goof offs when most of your players don't show up for a session but everyone still wants to game. :D
astute1 05-19-05, 11:12 AM	You should keep in mind that the NPC's and monsters are built on 25 point buy. If you want your characters to be even slightly heroic, you have to go higher than that. I prefer 28 point buy, because the three extra points can go a long way towards improving your primary stat or making up for a deficiancy.
astute1 05-19-05, 11:20 AM	Oddly enough, I'm playing in two campaigns right now where the stats are crazy. One is: 4d6, 7 times drop lowest, reroll if total modifiers are less than +10 The other is: one stat at 24, one stat at 10, 4 stats at 10+2d6
Findail 05-19-05, 11:31 AM	30-point buy is used in Neverwinter Nights, and seem to work well. I agree that 25-point is fine for a typical single-classed spellcaster or whatever, but you start to run into problems with (for instance) Paladins, and many multi-class combos. Anything more is over-generous IMO. And you don't really need much above 14 these days: for us old-timers, a 14 is roughly equivalent to a 16 prior to 3rd Edition (+2 bonus).
Horatius 05-19-05, 12:41 PM	I like rolling dice, but I also like the 1/1 point buy. I would use the following three rules (subject to some modification depending on the power level of the game) to reduce min-maxing. All apply before racial modifiers. 1. The highest two stats cannot sum to more than 35 2. The highest three stats cannot sum to more than 50 3. No stat can be lower than 8
Sildatorak 05-19-05, 02:20 PM	You should keep in mind that the NPC's and monsters are built on 25 point buy. Only NPC's and monsters with PC class levels. NPC classes and non-classed monsters are both built on 15 point buys.
BladeDrinker 05-19-05, 02:24 PM	First, those add up to 76. Second, if someone handed me a charsheet like that, I would laugh, and allow them to do that, with the foreknowledge that they would most likely be making up a new char shortly. Ummm. . . May I ask why you think a first level rogue with Str 6, Dex 24, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 4 is going to die right away? Or a first level fighter with Str 30, Dex 8, Con 20, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 3 is a goner? Because those look like pretty insanely nasty characters to me. STR: Wizard and Sorcerer are the only classes that can really get by with negatives here, and even here it would hurt them, badly, when they get into melee. Especially in the first few levels, when a skeleton can kill a mage in one attack if its lucky. Having a high strength will not do anything to help a wizard or sorcerer survive an attack from a skeleton. High constitution will. So a first level wizard could have the following stats: Str 6, Dex 14, Con 22, Int 28, Wis 4, Cha 4, and have ten hit points at first level. In my opinion, the 25 point mark is sufficient to allow a generally good character - a nice balance point. 28 is a little generous, and 30 is definitely generous. You should keep in mind that the NPC's and monsters are built on 25 point buy. Actually rolling 4d6 and dropping one averages out to about a 26 or 28 point buy. So 25 points would be slightly underpowered. For the OP: you can do whatever you want to generate stats, but your system is very abuseable in the hands of powergamer. I would probably want to implement a minimum score of 6 and a maximum score of 18.
astute1 05-19-05, 02:28 PM	Actually rolling 4d6 and dropping one averages out to about a 26 or 28 point buy. So 25 points would be slightly underpowered. Yeah, that's what I meant. If you want your guys to be slightly better than the NPCs, use a 28 point buy.
BladeDrinker 05-19-05, 06:12 PM	Actually rolling 4d6 and dropping one averages out to about a 26 or 28 point buy. So 25 points would be slightly underpowered. Actually, I just double checked my math and I was wrong. So 25 points isn't underpowered after all. :blush:
Lord of the Underdark 05-19-05, 07:18 PM	What the heck, just let everyone have 18's in everything.... But make them take a 3 in one stat. :D
Nom 05-19-05, 07:39 PM	You should keep in mind that the NPC's and monsters are built on 25 point buy. If you want your characters to be even slightly heroic, you have to go higher than that.Do you have a rules reference for that? MM pg 7 says that standard creatures are built on the standard array (11,11,11,10,10,10 for monsters, 13,12,11,10,9,8 for humanoids), while advanced humanoids (with PC class levels) use the elite array. DMG pg 110 corroborates this. I prefer 28 point buy, because the three extra points can go a long way towards improving your primary stat or making up for a deficiancy.Not picking on you particularly, but this highlights the key fallacy that most people display when talking about ability scores. The question is not "what provides the PCs with the best scores" but "what provides the PCs with the scores that match the power level and game style I want to play at?". Unless you are happy to invalidate challenge ratings and XP progression, it's almost always better to power up PCs by increasing starting level than by blessing them with superior items or ability scores. The game is designed to scale with the former, not the latter. For reference, the PH rolling method (including rerolls) produces a mean ability score "point-buy equivalent" of just under 30. However, the player will often lose a few effective bonuses due to odd scores and because the scores won't always be where you put them. It also has a massive variance.
SBMC 05-19-05, 07:51 PM	Personally I believe that the PC’s are the elite of the elite in society in DnD. 10 is supposed to be the average for humans; but PC’s are not average. They are supposed to be stronger, faster and smarter than average. How else can they fight off the universe’s worst (or best) villains and heroes (respectively). Think about it; WoTC also assumes that you run the standard campaign with regards to magic. Where magic is fairly common. Every hamlet has a least a couple of everburning torches…maybe the constable/leader/chief has a magic sword or shield… It makes PC’s rely on magic to get to the stats they need to take on the biggest badest monsters of their CR level. Thus; if you have a higher magic campaign (I define Faerun as above average magic) I would think (just my opinion) the stats should be more average (12-14) with one main stat 16-18. If you have a lower magic campaign I think the stats should be higher. But I like to mix it up: System #1 The player gets an automatic 18 in one ability score that is relevant to their character class: Fighter: Str, Dex (if he chooses to lock himself to a Dex type fighter) or Con Ranger: Str, Dex or Wis Barbarian: Str, Dex or Con Paladin: Str, Cha or Wis Wizard: Int or Dex Cleric: Cha or Wis Sorcerer: Cha or Dex Bard: Cha or Int Rouge: Dex or Int Druid: Wis or Dex Monk: Str, Wis or Dex In other words one of the ability scores that feeds their classes abilities. Next they get 2 automatic 12’s and roll 2d6 and take the highest die The remainder; roll 5d6 for each ability score and take the highest 3 die No score can be below 8 and no score can be over 18; both after racial adjustments. Now of course this results in some high stat characters; but as I stated; in one campaign I believe PC’s are the elite of physical and mental abilities. 10’s don’t point to that. And the campaign is adjusted to account for this; depending on the magic available in that world. System #2 (just like the DM’s guide 40 point buy start at 8; 9-14: 1 Point 15-16: 2 Points 17-18: 3 Points No score can be over 18 after racial adjustments. System #3 Roll 3d6 3 times for each score, take top 3 dice, arrange stat scores as you wish have No score can be over 18 or under 3 after racial adjustments. System #4 Free Minimum score: 10 Roll 1d6 6 times = Points you can buy 1 for 1 No score can be over 18 or under 3 after racial adjustments.
BladeDrinker 05-19-05, 09:48 PM	Do you have a rules reference for that? MM pg 7 says that standard creatures are built on the standard array (11,11,11,10,10,10 for monsters, 13,12,11,10,9,8 for humanoids), while advanced humanoids (with PC class levels) use the elite array. {...} Unless you are happy to invalidate challenge ratings and XP progression, it's almost always better to power up PCs by increasing starting level than by blessing them with superior items or ability scores. You have mistaken his point. He didn't mean that monsters are made using 25 point buy, he meant that the CR of various monsters was set for a party of players using roughly a 24 point buy. So you are both making the same point on that issue. :P Personally I believe that the PC’s are the elite of the elite in society in DnD. 10 is supposed to be the average for humans; but PC’s are not average. They are supposed to be stronger, faster and smarter than average. Point buy 24/25 and rolling 4d6 and dropping one both yield above average characters. (Their average stats should be between 12 and 13.)
Mirikon 05-20-05, 03:00 AM	Ummm. . . May I ask why you think a first level rogue with Str 6, Dex 24, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 4 is going to die right away? Or a first level fighter with Str 30, Dex 8, Con 20, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 3 is a goner? Because those look like pretty insanely nasty characters to me. Mini-boss battle of the first dungeon will include Shadows. Boss battle, after they get to level 6 or so, will include a Crypt Chanter. Having a high strength will not do anything to help a wizard or sorcerer survive an attack from a skeleton. High constitution will. So a first level wizard could have the following stats: Str 6, Dex 14, Con 22, Int 28, Wis 4, Cha 4, and have ten hit points at first level. Having played wizards with high STR before, I can tell you quite honestly that a quarterstaff in the hands of even a 12 STR wizard can be quite deadly to skeletons. And again, I would slap anyone who did something like that with Shadows or Crypt Chanters. Honestly, with all the ability draining monsters, spells, poisons, and traps out there, if your players don't get the message that minmaxing yourself into big weaknesses is a Bad Thing(tm), then you're not being assertive enough.
IceFractal 05-20-05, 04:57 AM	Well, what's so bad about the stat cost being linear? The stat effects are linear. While an 18 Strength might be 100x as rare as a 14 strength, it's only twice as good. An 18 is only 1 point better than a 16, bonus-wise. If you want to make a Fighter with stats like [18 18 18 3 3 3] then you're already taking a tradeoff - you may be good at combat, but you're bad at will saves, skills, and social interaction. As long as the game has a mix of combat, skill based encounters, and social situations, then all the stats should be of use. And as far as 25/28 point buy goes - I think 28 lets you worry less about stat optimizing and fit the character better. With 25 points, very few fighter-types will have a good Int or Cha. With 28 points, you can bump that 10 Int to a 13 and get that Knowledge(military history) skill you want. I think having to choose between stats that fit the character and stats that are actually effective is much more of a detriment to roleplaying than having an 18.
FriendoftheDork 05-20-05, 05:47 AM	You should keep in mind that the NPC's and monsters are built on 25 point buy. If you want your characters to be even slightly heroic, you have to go higher than that. I prefer 28 point buy, because the three extra points can go a long way towards improving your primary stat or making up for a deficiancy. Wrong, most NPCs and monster are built on 15-point buy, or the array 11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 OR 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Only ELITE NPCs are built on the "elite array" that is 25-point buy. PCs are considered "elite". But what I like about 25 is the ability to have somwhat nice stats (perhaps a 16 and a 14) without having to go below 10 in any stat.
FriendoftheDork 05-20-05, 05:53 AM	I generally agree with FriendoftheDork's sentiments, except for this one:My experience has been that 28 points actually enhances min-maxing. 25 points is not really enough to allow for one really high score (or two moderately high scores) without crippling the character. Putting even a 16 in a single score reduces the remaining scores to an average of 11. In contrast, 28 points is just enough to make an 18 viable without leaving the character a 1 trick wonder. In my opinion, the 25 point mark is sufficient to allow a generally good character - a nice balance point. 28 is a little generous, and 30 is definitely generous. You need to make the call for your games, however, depending on the style of play that you and your players enjoy. Be ready to correct CRs and XP awards if you go much over 25 points equivalent, however. I have to disagree: This is the basic mix maxed 25-point buy warrior type: 16, 14, 14, 10, 9, 8 makes a strong an tough warrior. make it 16, 12, 15, 10, 9, 8 for those full plate guys. It makes a good fighter that is good in combat and little else. Here's the wizard equivalent: 8, 14, 14, 17, 8, 8 - a good wizard in combat yet sucks at anything but spellcasting and surviving combat. With 28 point buy you can afford to round them out a bit: Fighter: 16, 12, 14, 14, 10, 8. This one is not that much more powerful in combat than my 25-point buy example, yet a more fun character to play as you have good int and ok wis or cha.
Ut-Napishtim 05-20-05, 07:10 AM	Hmmm... seems a lot of folks really get into the ability scores. Personally I offer my peeps the standard 4d6 or a 28-point buy (scaled, DMG point-buy) at their discretion. As a player I'm perfectly happy with what I get out of either method. As a DM I don't run a game where the PC's are the stuff of legends or whatever so my NPC's are constructed using the same things the players were allowed - nothing more, nothing less. While the "average" score (10) might not be the statistical average for all the ability scores of the game world, it's still "average" because it offers neither bonuses or penalties - it's simply "okay" overall. I run a standard-magic game and try to follow the RAW as closely as possible for the benefit of both ease to myself, and fairness to the players... without a screen. :D
astute1 05-20-05, 03:47 PM	Well, what's so bad about the stat cost being linear? The stat effects are linear. While an 18 Strength might be 100x as rare as a 14 strength, it's only twice as good. This is not true. Stats do not increase linearly, nor do the effects of having high stats, even though bonuses do. The reason for this is because most things in the game are capped - thus, any linear distribution can increase only to the cap. The bonus for 18 strength is only twice as good at 14, but you access to additional feats, and you have a greater chance to hit on every attack, in addition, your damage is increased on every attack. Those effects are non-linear. Likewise, a wizard with 15 intelligence can cast 5th level spells, a wizard with 14 intelligence cannot.
Palin the Wizard 05-20-05, 04:27 PM	Ummm. . . May I ask why you think a first level rogue with Str 6, Dex 24, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 4 is going to die right away? Or a first level fighter with Str 30, Dex 8, Con 20, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 3 is a goner? Because those look like pretty insanely nasty characters to me. Player characters' stats range from 1 to 20 after racial modifiers. I don't mind extreme stats. If players are foolish enough to dump a stat to increase an already powerful stat, they will have a fatal flaw. Plus... they have to roleplay it. This is, after all, a roleplaying game.
SBMC 05-22-05, 08:35 PM	Point buy 24/25 and rolling 4d6 and dropping one both yield above average characters. (Their average stats should be between 12 and 13.) Perhaps - in your game not in mine and not in the one everyone in the world runs. Some may say 12-13 is fine, others say it is to low. A +1 to me is not an elite score. For PC's I beleive that the average scores should be more like 14-16 with at least one 18 and two +3's in there; perhaps only one +1. But again that is me; my low magic campaign where gobliniods and orcs run amok by the score and many a dragon is about. Your game may be different; more along the lines of a "average" (if that even exists) game.
deadDMwalking 05-22-05, 09:06 PM	As long as I'm thinking about it anyway, I would be a little more strict in my requirements. I would require a minimum score of 8 before racial modifiers and a minimum score of 3 after racial modifiers. I would allow a maximum score of 18 beforeracial modifiers. That last seems what you have in place, but I just thought I would mention it.