Post/Author/DateTime	Post
angry_keebler 09-10-03, 05:25 AM	Herein, I have accumluated all of the knowledge necessary to become a DM who will give the Players a fun game. Where appropriate, I have included examples and explainations. 1. Make it Clear that its the DM versus the PCs. If you establish this fact before the game begins, everyone will have more fun. If their characters die, no biggie. That is the function of the DM. Facilitate PC death. This does not mean that you should play unfairly. Just for keeps. The level 1 characters should be Afraid of kobolds. The kobolds will kill, and then potentially eat them. Not wound them, and then be chased off by some Deus Ex Machina Conversely, the Player Characters job is to continuously thwart the embodiment of the DM. Monsters, Bosses, Traps, Puzzles, anything the DM throws at the characters, they must overcome this. This does not mean you should intentionally derail the game, or kill every helpful NPC, just because they are the creations of the DM. Rather, it means that anything which opposes you must be defeated. 2. Encourage the Neutral Evil alignment. Especially for people who are new to gaming. Neutral Evil means you do anything, as long as it might someday benifit you. It opens up the greatest number of role playing opportunities for your players. Think of it this way. The Lawful Good palidin is no different from the Neutral Evil BlackGuard. Both do what they must, in order to keep their special powers. Both think only of their personal achievment and enhancements. Remember, the palidin is a Pious Man. The pious man is a man who would be athiest if the king were. 3. If you give out treasure, make sure the characters can't spend it on Magic items of any power. Otherwise, you'll end up with the level 3 Fighter, with his Shocking Burst, Icy Burst, Fiery Burst, Thundering Mighty Composite Longbow {+4} of Speed. Doing a maximum of well over 100 damage per critical. Obviously this is stupid. But its even stupider to allow the PC to purchase such an item, then have it fail, get stolen, break, etc. If its your fault, you probably haven't read my helpful tips, or are a moron. 4. Don't ever, EVER force a PC to choose a class, race, alignment, gear, etc. Dont EVER EVER EVER force him to choose a Bard (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96866) . Hooray. We're all not what we choose to be. Thanks DM. 5. Don't discourage anything except blatant cheating. Such as powergaiming, Metagaming, Twinking, munchkinism, or any of the other various dodges characters use to make uber charcters. We're all big boys and girls now. If you want to be tough, the monsters will be tough too. And if they catch you, they won't take your good items to "balance" the PC power. They'll torture you, kill you, and probably eat you. 6. Always stick to the Status Quo Tailored adventures are for wimps. If the PC gets a level, they should anticipate the dangers ahead, not change them. If the wizard takes fireball, knowing full well that the party is going to the FIRE TEMPLE, they are stupid. In fact, if the wizard didn't take energy substitiution, they are probably stupid. Time to cull the herd. 7. Never reward Role Playing. Otherwise, the smart PC will figure out that all he has to do is "act in character" to level up. Sounds like the DM is playing favorites to me. We should probably ignore that part about not derailing the campaign. 8. Play as intelligently as the PCs Take the sum of the PC intelligence. Average it. This is now the minimum intelligence for all monsters capable of complex planning. Use it, or the default from the monsterous manual, whichever is higher. If the average is 4, yet the PCs are inventing flying club chucking machines, then orcs probably can too. In fact, the orcs probably have a lot more minds to put to the task of complex constructions than the PCs do. Abuse this fact. Thats about it. With this new knowledge, Go forth, and do something more fun that the standard campaign. DM: "You see a drow maiden clad in evil black leather armour" PC: Lets attack!! DM: "Before you can swing, she stops you. She is crying. 'Please, i don't want to be evil, help me change. I'll join your party. And give you nookie.'" PC: "Oh Yeah!" meanwhile, next session... PC: "Lets have the drow priestess take first watch." DM: "Everyone make a fortitude save. " All the pcs fail the Coup de Grace check. DM: "Wow. You are all so dumb. I can't believe you fell for the oldest trick in the book. Evil will always triumph, because good is Dumb."
Jenny With The Lantern 09-10-03, 07:47 AM	I totally disagree with most of Angry_keebler's observations. I've never heard anything that's further from my own ideas about DMing. I don't know if it was meant to be discussed but you shouldn't have put it up here if it wasn't. So here is my two cents: 1. Make it Clear that its the DM versus the PCs. IMO, the DM should be totally neutral. Come up with a fun story and see what the players make of it. If they act stupid, make it clear to them in game, and if they do well, reward them. 2. Encourage the Neutral Evil alignment. I've found that it's way easier to play good than evil for most new players. Playing evil is an art in itself, and not just killing everyone you meet; that's why you need IRL RP experience to do it and that's why new players shouldn't play evil. 3. If you give out treasure, make sure the characters can't spend it on Magic items of any power. Nonsense! Why give the players gold if they won't be able to do anything with it? Of course the players shouldn't own way overpowered items, but if you don't want this to happen, simply hand out less treasure! 5. Don't discourage anything except blatant cheating. Don't let your players become 'uber characters'! Just start out using the standard rules for creating them. If you find you and your players want to play a tougher game, decide so on experience. 6. Always stick to the Status Quo Tailored adventures are not for wimps! I personally don't use them, but plenty of people do and for good reason. They can be equally much fun as homebrew. 7. Never reward Role Playing. ALWAYS reward good roleplaying! It's what makes the game fun! Otherwise, the smart PC will figure out that all he has to do is "act in character" to level up. In my game, that's EXACTLY what I want my players to do! Good roleplay is the entire base of my game!
chronostorm 09-10-03, 08:00 AM	Yeah I would have to agree with Jenny on this one. Especially about that first rule. I'v played the DM vs. PC game and it was the worst campaign I've ever been in. When you compete against the one running the game it very quickly enters the realm of total stupidity. That particular DM was relieved of all further DMing duties by the rest of the group.
angry_keebler 09-10-03, 08:04 AM	You see, the problem though, is that Role Playing is subjective. The Chaotic Good rogue with a hight intelligence and charisma who tricks an angry mob of peasants into not fighting him should recieve no more of a reward than the Chaotic Evil Fighter with low intelligence and charisma, who slaughters them all, and burns down their village for no reason. You see, both are "Role playing" their character. Obviously, however, most DMs will reward the good, or clever actions, rather than brute force. But the Chaotic Evil fighter's Player could fairly argue that his actions were in character. In fact, the odds are it was more challenging to slaughter an entire town than to simply convince them not to fight, and therefore the Fighter should potentially earn an even greater exp award.
cheshire_grin 09-10-03, 09:17 AM	You've just described a DM whose game I wouldn't participate in on pain of maiming.
puk 09-10-03, 09:34 AM	keeb, you crack me up! The kobolds will kill, and then potentially eat them. Not wound them, and then be chased off by some Deus Ex MachinaI can just see those cute little kobolts japping, jumping up and down like exited puppies, trying to get a bite out of that mean old barbarian. 4. Don't ever, EVER force a PC to choose a class, race, alignment, gear, etc. Dont EVER EVER EVER force him to choose a Bard . But I want to play a bard. ;) Seriously, though, I can play anything I want in your game? How about a half fiend celestial warmonkey with 6 levels sorcerer? Damage reduction from allmost everything, capable of hurling fireballs while in melee, and the best part: No penalties while climbing! In fact, if the wizard didn't take energy substitiution, they are probably stupid. Time to cull the herd. unfortunately, killing a charcter will allmost never result in the player's demise. Any sugestions there?
Velkairiwyth 09-10-03, 09:57 AM	Originally posted by angry_keebler The Chaotic Good rogue with a hight intelligence and charisma who tricks an angry mob of peasants into not fighting him should recieve no more of a reward than the Chaotic Evil Fighter with low intelligence and charisma, who slaughters them all, and burns down their village for no reason. Ah, but if the good rogue didnt "learn" and "gain experience" from the encounter, then how is he going to level up? discovering the "kill it all approach" is the quickest, what would happen :smirk: ;) just my copper pieces
Chobemaster 09-10-03, 10:19 AM	Don't feed the troll, guys.
angry_keebler 09-10-03, 10:31 AM	Theoretically, a wizard could level up without casting any spells for the level, and still take a level of wizard, thus increasing his spell casting abilities without ever using them. Also, most Quest Experience awards have little to do with actual "Experience" but more with role playing.
Bopple 09-10-03, 11:17 AM	Hmm...slightly off topic but... When I dm, I give the same xp to who cleverly managed the situation without fighting as to who fought through.(if the latter had enough reason to fight through and the result was almost the same) But if the clever one found/revealed something more, then I give more xp. But I don't give XP just for a good rp. Like other rules, it's abusable. I've seen some who overexpressed their pcs and shadowed others to get more xp. Still, I give xp for an exceptional rp. :)
ChaoticGod 09-10-03, 01:29 PM	1) I agree that you should let the players know that your campaign will be challenging. "I will kill your PCs as often as you let me. Your actions hold your fate." Killing the PCs isn't your goal, it is a necessary evil that the players sometimes force upon you. 3) Do not give out so much treasure that it makes the PCs more powerful than they should be for their level. Allow the PCs to explore and recover the magic items the players want. Buying magic items will turn your D&D session into Malls & Mastercards and lessen the wonder that an enchanted object should bring. 4) The PHB gives a wide choice of balanced races and classes. Allow the PCs to make that choice. Do not allow them to choose the cheese-of-the-month from a magazine or other d20 supplement. It will unbalance your game, make your other players unhappy and make alot of work for you. 8) Unless a monster is described as being galactically stupid it should use basic tactics, especially humanoids. See 1# above. If your players are better tacticians than you are, then take note of what they do and use it against them in later combats. The rest of these fall into the category of ... Mostly boring, with the occasional error. :rolleyes:
Toptomcat 09-10-03, 01:39 PM	:rolleyes: Ladies and Gents, I think we have a Sarge-In-Training.
PenderGrass 09-10-03, 02:51 PM	Ladies and Gents, I think we have a Sarge-In-Training. That would be a CPL to the rest of you pogues.
kalniel 09-10-03, 03:47 PM	hehe.. good humour post. Some people thought you were being serious :P
dafrca 09-10-03, 04:07 PM	Originally posted by kalniel hehe.. good humour post. Some people thought you were being serious :P Are you sure he wasn't ? dafrca
CrippleMrOnion 09-10-03, 04:16 PM	I have to disagree, as most have, with almost everything that was originally posted. However, I also have a suggestion regarding the experience problem. I simply don't give exp. to the players. I count the encounters and the CRs and get the actual exp, take into account how they dealt with problems, figure in the different potential outcomes, decide if they have a chance to take the in-game time to level-up, then just tell them when they've leveled or haven't. That way, the players can't argue about whether they deserve extra exp for figuring out a puzzle on the first try, etc.
Maofeng 09-10-03, 04:58 PM	Originally posted by cheshire_grin You've just described a DM whose game I wouldn't participate in on pain of maiming. Amen.
Nephet 09-10-03, 08:40 PM	1a. Refuse to tell the players your house rules. It's much more fun if they discover them as they play.
Donnavin Snowolf 09-10-03, 09:11 PM	lol I don't know dafrica. I thought it was a joke when i read the first bit "Let the PCs know its them against you." And I was like, haha, thats clever. But then he defended his arguement. Either he's going Andy Kaufman style comedy on us or he's serious.
PhaedrusXY 09-10-03, 09:12 PM	Originally posted by Nephet 1a. Refuse to tell the players your house rules. It's much more fun if they discover them as they play. :rofl:
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-10-03, 09:36 PM	I agree with 4 and 5. 4, because my players would string me up if I forced them to do anything. 5) because chasing after munchkinism and powergaming wastes time and solves nothing.
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 09-10-03, 09:38 PM	*salutes Corporal Keebler, and begins filing papers to promote him* :rofl: Sarge-in-training indeed! I name him Corporal!
kidjay76 09-10-03, 09:41 PM	angry_keebler, no offense meant, but I fundamentally disagree with most of your points. 1. It's not the DM against the PCs. I'm not out to get them, and they're not trying to screw me over. Shockingly, we all still have a good time and not one PC takes the dangers of an adventure lightly (in fact, sometimes they err on the side of paranoia). Ultimately, I'm trying to tell a story that they'll enjoy being a part of, while at the same time satisfying my creativity. This adversarial relationship you advocate is simply your opinion. If it works for you, huzzah. But I won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. 2. Encourage neutral evil characters? Not on my watch. That's a player choice, and the claim that NE chars have more role-playing opportunities is simply wrong. RP opportunities abound for characters of all types. 3. Why give out gold if the players can't use it to make their characters stronger? Not only will you make your players unhappy, you'll also skew later adventures, since challenge ratings depend in large part on players of an appropriate level having access to a variety of magic items/spells. 4. The one thing we can agree on. I'd never force a person to choose a specific class or race, except where the existing party dynamic would make adventuring as a group impossible (e.g. a paladin and a chaotic evil blackguard). 5. Allow everything except blatant cheating? Maybe that turns your crank, but not mine. If the actions of a player are ruining the role-playing experience for the group, then those actions need to stop. Period. 6. Why the hate-on for tailored adventures? It's like saying blue is a better colour than black. Absurd. Use whatever adventures you want. 7. So I guess the marquee saying "Dungeons & Dragons Role-playing Game" should be changed to "Dungeons & Dragons Role-playing Game That Doesn't Reward Role-playing"? :rolleyes: 8. No, play as intelligently as the NPC's intelligence, as determined by you. If that means a smart Orc leader or a moronic wizard, so be it. I'm not interested in running a campaign where everyone's intelligence is determined in relation to the PCs by a formula. Where's the role-playing in that?
Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 09-10-03, 09:42 PM	Originally posted by kidjay76 angry_keebler, no offense meant, but I fundamentally disagree with most of your points. 1. It's not the DM against the PCs. I'm not out to get them, and they're not trying to screw me over. Shockingly, we all still have a good time and not one PC takes the dangers of an adventure lightly (in fact, sometimes they err on the side of paranoia). Ultimately, I'm trying to tell a story that they'll enjoy being a part of, while at the same time satisfying my creativity. This adversarial relationship you advocate is simply your opinion. If it works for you, huzzah. But I won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. 2. Encourage neutral evil characters? Not on my watch. That's a player choice, and the claim that NE chars have more role-playing opportunities is simply wrong. RP opportunities abound for characters of all types. 3. Why give out gold if the players can't use it to make their characters stronger? Not only will you make your players unhappy, you'll also skew later adventures, since challenge ratings depend in large part on players of an appropriate level having access to a variety of magic items/spells. 4. The one thing we can agree on. I'd never force a person to choose a specific class or race, except where the existing party dynamic would make adventuring as a group impossible (e.g. a paladin and a chaotic evil blackguard). 5. Allow everything except blatant cheating? Maybe that turns your crank, but not mine. If the actions of a player are ruining the role-playing experience for the group, then those actions need to stop. Period. 6. Why the hate-on for tailored adventures? It's like saying blue is a better colour than black. Absurd. Use whatever adventures you want. 7. So I guess the marquee saying "Dungeons & Dragons Role-playing Game" should be changed to "Dungeons & Dragons Role-playing Game That Doesn't Reward Role-playing"? :rolleyes: 8. No, play as intelligently as the NPC's intelligence, as determined by you. If that means a smart Orc leader or a moronic wizard, so be it. I'm not interested in running a campaign where everyone's intelligence is determined in relation to the PCs by a formula. Where's the role-playing in that? 9. Never notice sarcasm when it dances in front fo you naked. :D :P See, just like sarge he chose #4 to be real, so that it would instill doubt in people that he's unserious.
TheJester from Winchester 09-10-03, 09:49 PM	Originally posted by Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM *salutes Corporal Keebler, and begins filing papers to promote him* :rofl: Sarge-in-training indeed! I name him Corporal! Agree completely, 4instance my Paladin First is a Half-Orc his Stats are using point buy 32points lvl12 18 str 12 dex 14 con 10 int 14 wis 12 cha
Ack'noth Necrom 09-10-03, 09:58 PM	Wow thats one heck of a stand point. I disagree with all of it though. 2 things i should point out. 1) Right now im a full time DM but if i went back to being a player i wouldnt play in a game that was like that. 2) A player with those beleifs has no place in my game and would end up getting removed from the group. But hey if it works for you more power to ya, have fun. :D Just my 2 cents...
Darthos the Librarian 09-10-03, 10:21 PM	Originally posted by Mordenkainen's Rubber Duck of DOOM 9. Never notice sarcasm when it dances in front fo you naked. :D :P See, just like sarge he chose #4 to be real, so that it would instill doubt in people that he's unserious. There's no nudity on the internet.... :rofl:
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-10-03, 10:27 PM	Originally posted by kidjay76 4. The one thing we can agree on. I'd never force a person to choose a specific class or race, except where the existing party dynamic would make adventuring as a group impossible (e.g. a paladin and a chaotic evil blackguard). Obviously, you keep the blackguard. :D *hold up his "Go Evil" pennant*
kidjay76 09-10-03, 11:33 PM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland Obviously, you keep the blackguard. :D *hold up his "Go Evil" pennant* Vaalingrade, I think we've wrangled this one out before! ;) I'll be happy to give ya the blackguard. I'll take the do-gooder any time. :D
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-11-03, 12:21 AM	*gives the Blackguard the half-machine template and a laser cannon, then give gim a huge con that says "Go Phyrexians in DnD"*
Greldinard 09-11-03, 04:10 AM	Originally posted by angry_keebler 7. Never reward Role Playing. I suppose that's why it is called a ROLLPLAYING game.
angry_keebler 09-11-03, 11:53 AM	Look. I didn't mean to be sarcastic. I meant to be witty. However, apparently most of you lack the ability to differentiate betwee the two. So I will Explain myself. Again. Role playing should never be rewarded. Ever. Here's the reasoning. Roleplaying is not the purpose of the game. It is the means to an end. It's like giving out 5 points to the soccer team for Running on the field. On the Subject of Evil. Everyone is neutral evil in real life. It doesn't take any effort. The neutral evil character does that which makes him happy, or that which advances him. Or, he does that which prevents his immediate advancement, in the hopes that one day he will reap the bennifits. Charity is good. However, you don't give to charity to be good. You give to charity so you don't spend eternity in the fires that burn but do not consume. Or to dodge the taxman. Or to tell your friends you are "So charitable." Chicks dig charity. Maybe if you give to the poor, you can finally get laid. While the end result might be good for other people, the motivation was evil. Which, I suppose, is good in a way... Statistical Analysis: Out of 30 resoponses, only 10% of you have any brains.
Falkus 09-11-03, 12:13 PM	Role playing should never be rewarded. Ever. Then why would anybody play a character with an interesting and etailed background or personality? Roleplaying is not the purpose of the game. It is the means to an end. It's like giving out 5 points to the soccer team for Running on the field. Soccer is a sport that focuses on one team beating the other. There is no competition between the DM and players in DnD. The rules exist so that players can detail their character's abilities, what they can or cannot do, and their position within the party (as well as how they interact with other players and NPCs). In other words, the rules are there to heighten the roleplaying experience. It's the rules that are the means to the end, not the roleplaying. You got it backwards.
jkovacik 09-11-03, 12:16 PM	On the Subject of Evil. Everyone is neutral evil in real life. It doesn't take any effort. The neutral evil character does that which makes him happy, or that which advances him. I have no idea why I react when I see such an obviously sophomoric, ridiculously trivial false statement, but I do. (I got riled up once when someone told me that pi equals 3 as well. It just bugs me. Anyway, I know I've got some troll chow in here somewhere... Ah, here it is:) You can't redefine the definition of evil, and then say that it applies to everyone. A fundamental part of the definition of evil is that they delight in the suffering of others. Your assumption that everyone acts to better themselves is false. Parents sacrafice for their children (up to and including their own lives). Atheists do good deeds, knowing that there is no eternal reward. The list goes on and on. If you want to say that everyone is fundamentally neutral, that's fine. It takes real effort to be consistantly good, evil, chaotic, or lawful. And since there exists at least one person who is an athiest, who gives to charities, and neither deducts those contributions nor tells anyone about them, your statement about charities is false.
Chobemaster 09-11-03, 12:27 PM	To clarify, a troll is someone who posts deliberaely inflammatory and absurd posts, then laughs when everyone keeps responding. It's technically a CoC violation, though its normally ignored...it's not like we're running out of capacity for new posts. And Sarge is/was a master troller. Don't feed the trolls, you're being laughed at, not with.
Kenohki 09-11-03, 02:17 PM	I think your post had some interesting opinions that many people would disagree with. I just wanted to give you my take. 1) Adversarial is one possible DM style. It most fits a campaign that emphasizes combat and puzzle-solving. The danger is that you take this role seriously. You aren't just the guy runnning the other team, but you run everything so if you get stuck if a mentality where you want to win it is very easy to go too far and wipe out your PCs. Underlying an adversarial approach must be the idea that you want the game to be fun and fair/possible. 2) You have a very dark outlook (although not without philosophical merit) of the inner nature of humanity. "Sacrificing yourself to save your family! Greedy bastard wanting to preserve his genetic material!" If you don't like the alignment system and find it restrictive you can remove it from the game. Using it and labelling everyone NE removes the point of the alignment system. Although the notion of a Paladin detecting evil on the high priest of the religion dedicated to healing and getting an Overwhelming evil response is vaeguly amusing. "Kill the priest, he is just doing it because he wants everyone to respect him!" 3) The ability to buy magical items is dangerous. It is an important consideration when running your game. If you do allow purchasing you simply have to make sure you don't give out amounts that are too extreme. No 50,000 gp for low-level characters. 4) I agree with that forcing a character to play a certain race/class/whatever is generally bad, but sometimes in a one-shot I hand out characters and allow PCs to pick from them. I can imagine certain game variants where you might force players to be a certain something. For example, a friend of mine had a half-orc based game. 5) One problem with not discouraging power-gaming is that some people love it and are skilled at it while others aren't interested in it. If the two mix in a party the power-gamers will get much more spotlight and it will probably FORCE everyone to power game even if they aren't interested in doing so and they are forced to toss their character concept away. Many of the posts I see about over-powered characters and posts about them being over-powered relative to other members of their party. Metagaming is also very annoying while trying to tell a story. You meet a powerful wizard. He is supposed to a powerful and mysterious force. When one PC times of of his spells. Figures out his caster level and then keeps track of what spells he has cast it detracts from the mood and from the story part of the game. 6) Tailored adventures are sometimes good. If there is some danger that can only be overcome by a certain spell that your party doesn't have then you know they are going to fail. There should always be a way to succeed. I will agree that a mage taking his fireball into a fire temple should not to well. Also is you have story-based elements they should be tailored to your PC. For example having a sword in a stone that can only be drawn by someone of royal blood is much more interesting when one of your PCs has royal blood. From your description you mean tailored as in 'weakened' and if you have an adventure that the party has virtually no chance of surviving then it should be toned down. 7) What's wrong with levelling up from "Acting in character"? If you want a game that is very goal-oriented and less story oriented then you have a point. Only goals should count. But then who assigns the goals? Suppose I play a healing priest. My goal is to heal. Or is my goal to avoid hell in which case I only level up when I die? Also following this logic, killing monsters should not give you XP unless that is your explicit goal. As for playing favorites. That is a easy thing to do if any part of DMing, not just handing out experience. 8) Interesting idea. Although using an average seems like a bad idea. A party of 10 fighters with int 4 and a wizard with int 20 whoudl be able to come up with int 20 plans. This is, however, a generally good approach to the problem of role-playing high or low intellects which you don't necessarily posess. It seems like your games have a specific flavor from the rules you put forward. And none of them make for a bad game, but I definitely think that many games that break these 'rules' would be good as well. Of course, that invalidates them as 'rules'....
CrippleMrOnion 09-11-03, 02:28 PM	Wow, an actual true to life Jonathan Edwards. We are all SINNERS in the hands of an angry DM. Man is not neutral evil. Man has the freedom of choice. It's the nature of the game, pal. What it comes down to is we all make small decisions which control our lives. When we opt to make the decision that benefits someone else, rather than ourselves, then we're not being neutral evil. And before you try to say that temporarily selfish acts are simply a means to an end, where benefiting another will only come back and benefit ourselves later, try being a teacher. Every day I make thousands of small decisions which are bad for me but good for my students. And trust me, there's no ends. The gratitude I receive could be held on the head of a pin. With room left for angels to dance. And no, I'm not a psychopathic religious freak, either. Just a humble (or perhaps not) D&D player who thinks that what we beleive effects the way we are. Believe humanity is evil, and, sooner or later, that's all you'll be able to see. Ahh. I love philosophy in the midst of an RPG.
meabolex 09-11-03, 03:19 PM	Originally posted by CrippleMrOnion Wow, an actual true to life Jonathan Edwards. We are all SINNERS in the hands of an angry DM. Man is not neutral evil. Man has the freedom of choice. It's the nature of the game, pal. Man has freedom of choice in an ideal world. D&D is very idealistic, which I think is good. But most DMs don't respect this idealism. Do you think maybe there should be a spell called "freedom of choice" which would allow a character to make any action without alignment penalties? I know it sounds kind of senseless, but hey, it's magic!
Endarire 09-11-03, 03:48 PM	I'm unsure if this is meant as satire/sarcasm, but it fits well as those. If you intended it as real, something's wrong. -EE
hexgrid 09-11-03, 04:25 PM	Originally posted by angry_keebler On the Subject of Evil. Everyone is neutral evil in real life. Nah. In real life there's no such thing as alignment. That's just for the game, and trying to reconcile a fantasy game with reality is never a good idea..
bitnine 09-11-03, 04:35 PM	Originally posted by hexgrid Nah. In real life there's no such thing as alignment. That's just for the game, and trying to reconcile a fantasy game with reality is never a good idea.. I don't know, I think that trolls might have a Usually Chaotic Evil alignment in real life.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-11-03, 04:49 PM	I don't think trolls qualify for evil. CS would sum it up though.
bitnine 09-11-03, 04:57 PM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland I don't think trolls qualify for evil. CS would sum it up though. You know, evil doesn't always have to be impressive. Evil can be wussy and stupid as well. I honestly don't know where the idea that evil somehow implies competence crops up from, except for perhaps the DM usually designs his BBEGs that way, and those are the most notable evil characters seen. Seriously, there are slovenly, incompetant, pathetic CE folk that aren't awe-inspiring or masterminds of any sort. Not talking about anyone in particularly, of course. :)
chrome_gnome 09-11-03, 07:59 PM	Well these tips are almost neatly clipped from the Hackmaster handbooks from Kenzer Co Gaming on the mentality to play properly. :) Refer to a sample gameplay session from the website http://www.kenzerco.com/rpg/hackmaster/example.php And now onto my thoughts (1)I agree that the game in its purest form is the DM vs Players. If the DM isn't trying to kill the players within the confines of sportsman-like conduct then what exactly is the point of playing again? Mind you the DM cannot simply whip out the baddest monster in the book and toss into a level 3 party's lap, well he could but that isn't good form. Good form is trying to see how little firepower it takes you to wipe out the party. True masters can kill level 10 players with little more than blunt spear wielding kobolds. The challenge in being a DM is not being a bully but rather in providing the players with life and death events that test their skill as players. D&D was NEVER meant to be some sort of high brow thespian exercise the way White Wolf tries to market Vampire:The Masquerade. Try talking to Gary Gygax sometime and you'll see what I mean. Though you'll have to go to the Dragonsfoot message boards or the boards over at Kenzer to speak to him since he doesn't exactly enthusiastically support the direct D&D has been taken. "Its not the size of yer stick...its making sure the pointy end goes towards the big loud people dressed in shiny metal" (2)I personally don't care for the alignment system since it is rarely used as originally intended. There was at one point a questionaire, about 100 questions in length I think, that you were supposed to answer "in character" and based on your answers you alignment would be revealed. While asking the typical player to think in character generally yields less than stellar results having the players take the test as themselves offers the DM and player real insight into the motivations of their players. I found this "player alignment check" much more useful in play sessions. "I'm not evil, just misunderstood" "You burned down the entire village" "Yes, but I warned them all first" (3) I think this advice is helpful to novice DMs since it keeps them from screwing themselves over from the get-go. A true master gives the players enough rope to hang themselves and watches the fun commence. I have always been a fan of intelligent items for players, I mean what says "I own you" to a player more than a smack talking female vorpral sword with PMS and an affinity for attacking dragons? You want players to fear and respect magic and magic items? Then you are duty bound you make the players reap what their greed has sown. Also, as every MMORPG to date has discovered, item wear is MANDATORY to providing the players with an ongoing drive to acquire wealth. If their armor, weapons and equipment don't wear out then the players lose all sense of a realistic economy. If magic items aren't stolen, broken, etc then the players will not respect the gifts. "Loot is alot like freedom...you won't miss it until its gone" (4)I agree completely with this statement. The players are duty bound to bring their best strategies and skills to the game table and forcing them to be a race or class that doesn't suit their style is bad form. Plus it more entertaining to see thier favorite race/class combo be torn to shreds by their own pitifully stupid actions then it is a character they could care less about. As for Bards...well what more can be said...sometimes when a horse breaks a leg in the race you gotta put 'em down. "Choose the form of the Destructor.....Staypuff who?" (5) I agree that only cheating should be curtailed. Everything else should be delt with using the powers you have been granted with as a DM. Nothing says lovin' like an NPC who is a mirror image of one of the PCs who min/maxed himself to the hilt. The point will be made in a not so subtle way using this method that you do not appreciate the player's playstyle. You are simply telling the player please show me the respert of being creative if you exect me to do the same. "You specialized in Evocation huh?....Let me see where I put that Tarasque data card" (6)Let the dice fall where they may. Never let your feelings for your friends get in the way of showing them to the character creation chapter of the PHB as often as possible. When you fudge the die rolls to not let the player's character die in some trivial way you are in fact trivializing the whole point of risk and reward. Only liberals think everyone deserves a free lunch. You want a higher level character? Then EARN it. "Wow you've got a level 6 wizard? What's your secret to living so long?" "Easy....always remember you don't have to outrun the monster, just the slowest member of the party" (7) I think rewarding roleplaying is like giving prisoners a reduced sentence for good behavior. It's like givng a tax credit check to people who don't pay taxes. The game is meant to be challenging and risky. Reward players for their actions not thier use of the word "thee". If you want players who bring their best to the table then reward them for doing just that. If you want to hand out rewards for "being at one with your elven heritage" please do everyone a favor and watch Lifetime or Oxygen on saturday night. "Whitty quote not required" (8)This point really belongs as part of point 1. Playing monsters of low intelligence is yet another way to impress the other DMs at the watercooler. When they ask you to tell them the story of "The Green Slime that ate Oakhurst" you'll know what I mean. Any two bit DM can use Mind Flayers or Drow to twist a party into fleshy pretzels but true joy is hearing the lamentations of your players when they discover that Rust Monsters breed like rabbits 'round these parts. While high intelligence monsters can be fun its still the twists that make the encounters memorable. I mean if the players know red dragons use flame breath weapons don't you think the dragons also know the players have this knowledge? Just have your local red dragon cover itself in black soot before it encounters the party. I mean nothing makes beer come out a DMs nose faster than a party puttin' on the "anti-black dragon gear (tm)" when they encounter Crispy, your friendly neighborhood dragon. In conclusion too many people take games far too seriously to be taken seriously themselves. They claim they are "purist" players and are playing the game the way God intended and that to play any other way is heresy. To them I simply say...Get Bent... D&D was created to have fun above all else and to try and define what someone else should be having fun doing is truly un-American. I mean think about it for a minute...D&D was the brainchild of citizens of Wisconsin. Home to cheese, beer and the Green Bay Packers. Do you really think these guys took it so seriously?
Sildatorak 09-11-03, 09:53 PM	The whole "never reward good roleplaying" bit is a bit extreme. If experience is supposed to be a sum of the life lessons of the character, then "good roleplaying" should be rewarded, but not just for staying in character. Say you have a thief who is a chaotic-good, steal from the rich, give to the poor, keep 10%, type. Say she breaks into a wealthy merchants house, makes off with all the loot, including his tax records. She finds out he is actually ridiculously far in debt. If she uses those stolen goods to pay off his debt, she would definitely be in for a reward. Passing up game mechanic rewards (xp from killing monsters, gold, magical items) in favor of making a more consistent character should be rewarded in a tangible way (xp). However, this benefit should be less than the level of reward gained from keeping the treasure, otherwise the character didn't really make a sacrifice.
angry_keebler 09-12-03, 02:12 AM	Chrome Gnome is awesome. You should all listen to him. He is your God now. Now, on to the topic people who "sacrifice" for their children. This is bull. They are REQUIRED BY LAW to take care of their children. If they don't, they have the SHAME of losing their children, and possibly going to jail themselves. Obviously not everyone is like this. But you'd be suprised how many horrible people there are in the world. Also, if you take EVERYTHING I say literally, you are probably mildly retarded at best. I don't mean any of the following words: Hate, Love, Like, Never, Always, Stupid, etc. By the way. I Hate you all. I Never think any of you should play DND again. You are all Stupid and Retarded.
graile 09-12-03, 03:26 AM	Chobemaster - but...what if Troll-feeding is, like, like, a hobby of mine ? ;)
True Balance 09-12-03, 04:57 AM	my 2 copper!...my 2 copper! this thread is fun. who is or was sarge? ok, let me begin. 1.) D.M. vs players..sort of agree, if D.M. doesnt challenge players the game will be less enjoyable as the players will feel confident that no matter what they do their characters will be ok. 2.) encourage NE alignment...cant say i agree, players should play what they want but take into consideration the other characters. if all party is bad then player shouldnt write up a paladin. if party is evil dont write up an assassin. 3.) spend gold on magic items...somewhat disagree, D.M. i think should have a say in the availabilty of an item. example is if a party is in some small hamlet of a town the chances of them being able to buy a powerful magic item should be slim to none. if arcane and devine casters have item creation feats then let them create, waste of the feats otherwise. 4.) dont force specific class, etc. dont force bard class...agree, bards suk. my saying of bards are "they do a little of everything but a lot of nothing". bardic knowledge is all they got but that can be cool to propel the game along sometimes so they are not totally useless. 5.) disourage only cheating...depends, if a group can handle powergaming, munchkins, blah, blah, blah then cool (dont care for it myself), if you have a mix of experienced and new players then game might need to be toned down a few sessions for the newbies to catch on or leave if they cant learn. 6.) stick to status quo...i guess thats ok. if party has been given clear knowledge of an upcoming event but plan poorly on how to tackle it then i would consider it a lesson learned. i would forgive newbies of this (but only a game or two). 7.) never reward roleplaying...dissagree. i know im a terrible actor and will tell my D.M. as such when put in certain situations and i dont think many of us here went to any acting school but totally depending on dice rolls for situations can be as boring as nervously trying to act through an encounter. 8.) play as intelligently as PCs...disagree. probably same reason as other people. if fighting against invading barbarous idiots then party is probably more intelligent. if fighting against the great evil on the realm the party is probably more stupid. this is subject to each encounter. i dont really care to take sides of anyones arguement but let me say that with a name like angry keebler, being a member since this month of september , and beginning by posting more than one arguementative post is a clue to perhaps his games dont run as smoothly as he would lead me to think and this is perhaps a vent for him. i really do need to take some psychiatry classes, i think i have a knack:)
Belzebub 09-12-03, 09:59 AM	*walks in, shows his two fingers to angry_keebler, walks out*
Kaya Kenobi 09-12-03, 10:34 AM	*sighs* Don't feed the troll. Seems keebler is doing this on quite a few boards.
angry_keebler 09-12-03, 11:31 PM	It's sad when people can't tell the difference between trolling and serious advice...
True Balance 09-13-03, 01:25 AM	yeah, thats pretty sad. its also sad when trolls try to have the last post on a thread they start.:)
split infinitude 09-13-03, 02:52 AM	Rule 9 - Don't feed the troll.
True Balance 09-13-03, 03:23 AM	but i have such good troll bait that i dont want to go to waste.:( ok, i put it in the freezer for now.
polt 09-13-03, 07:08 PM	I totally disagree with angry_keebler. The DM is there FOR the players, not VERSUS the players. And i reward good roleplaying, because its dificult to do it.
WizO_Pony 09-13-03, 07:45 PM	I honestly can't tell if this thread started out as heartfelt, but unpopular opinion, or as really clever satire of some prevailing attitudes. But I cetainly can tell that it is ending up as a flame war. Calling other posters "idiots", "mildly retarded at best" or making reference to offensive gestures all count as "trolling or baiting", which are prohibited by the Code of Conduct (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=community/coc)