9 PCs, need Advice! [Archive] - Wizards Community

9 PCs, need Advice! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
damixmastermike
02-10-07, 02:30 PM I have my own forums on a msn group site and when I posted that I was writing up a new campaign and a new realm for it, I got nine PCs to come to my first session.

I changed a handful of combat rules:

1) I have multiple PCs role at the same time (as long as they're doing some kind of general action that doesn't really, really affect other players, like hack-and-slash fighting, damage spells, etc.)
2) I've made it so that my PCs only have a few seconds to tell me what they're doing
3) I do an excessive amount of yelling
etc. etc. etc.

---MY PROBLEM---
Role Playing is extremely difficult. My PCs and I put a stronger emphasis on this more then we do on hack-and-slash, but people can't get their role-playing across with some many people.

Please post suggestions and links to anything that could help

Thanks!
Wayside
02-10-07, 02:51 PM I spent a year or two in a group of clsoe to that size. Combat can become a big problem if you're not careful as a DM. Since there are so many players, their technical group level means they need to be put up against higher CR. The problem is that you still need to keep the CR of individual opponents close to the group's level. Them fighting one big BBEG will almost assuredly result in a lot of player deaths.
With a group that big you'll have to make liberal use of the DMG's encounter numbers chart on pg 49. Say, for example you have 9 6th level characters, you can combine them by treating them as creatures of CR equal to their ECL. So, we see on the chart that 9 6th level characters are roughly equivalent to a single 12th level character. We then see that a single lvl 12 can be broken down into 4 lvl 8's. So the parties effective level is 8. CR 8 is what D&D would consider a moderate challenge for the group. The difference isn't that bad here between the character's actual levels and and the CR, but it can get pretty severe if you have characters of different level in the group (which in my experience happened fairly often with people missing games, getting killed, etc..).
As for the roleplaying aspect, that never really got resolved, some people eventually got phased out of most conversations and eventually there were a handful of key survivors that made up the main group while the rest were like cannon fodder being tossed in due to our DM's experience penalty for death.
Averroes
02-10-07, 04:35 PM 9 players......yuck
5 is the most I will run at a time. I used to play in bigger groups, it just gets messy.
My advice is to cut people out. Possibly get them to run another group at the same time. I had to split my groups up to two nights because we had too many players for one. Now I have BOTH groups at 5 players(not counting DM) and there are still some people who want to join, but I know what will happen if I just let one more person in.

But if you HAVE to do it with that many people I'd suggest keep it really low levels. If you are focued on RP then I've found levels don't really matter, and when the sword hits the board your combat will be as painless as possibe.
Olskool
02-10-07, 04:43 PM Split em up. For your own sanity's sake, split em up.
Chimaera2000
02-10-07, 06:03 PM I have DM'ed large groups (roughly 7-8 people) and it is an art that I'd recommend to experienced DM's. Outside of combat, there can be the tendency for a few strong-personality players to dominate play, while in combat the amount of time between turns means that players can grow bored. Here are some tips that I've found useful:

1) Outside of combat, ask each character in turn what they'll be doing where appropriate. This allows each character to get some "screen time." Use opportunities to allow quieter people some attention, such as NPC's speaking to them before other characters. I'm still working on these techniques, however; maybe someone else has more advice?

2) In-combat, use "initiative cards" that both serve to mark where a player is in the initiative order and record some vital stats. This speeds up combat.

3) Have a set limit on the amount of time that a player has to decide and declare their action; I set a limit of ten to fifteen seconds. If they don't know what they're going to do, I inform them firmly but not disrespectfully that their character is delaying their action until they know what they're going to do.

4) I encourage players to think of what their character will do before they roll. Some players even take it upon themselves (like me, when I play) to make the relevant rolls before they act and/or roll attack and damage at the same time to speed up play.

5) Optionally, roll initiative for characters well in advance. Obviously, you need some of the PC's statistics to do this. This allows you to get into the action right away instead of waiting for a long period to figure out when everyone acts. Some groups (including mine) appreciate the dramatic tension of rolling for initiative, though ("What is that monster? What'll I do to defeat it?").

6) This is extremely important: be decisive in your rule calls. At times, you may not know a rule or your players may contest it. You must make a call decisively, even if it might be wrong, for the sake of keeping gameplay flowing. Encourage the player to look up the relevant rule while you keep the game moving. If you end up being wrong, so be it! Follow the rule in future instances. For now, though, you've kept the game from grinding to a halt as your group spends a half-hour looking through books to figure out some rule that probably has a minimal impact on play.

In short, the most important thing to do as a DM in a large group is keep your players interested. You do that by not having players feel left out or ignored and by keeping the game moving. If you can do these things, you can manage a group of almost any size.
damixmastermike
02-12-07, 03:37 PM I have DM'ed large groups (roughly 7-8 people) and it is an art that I'd recommend to experienced DM's. Outside of combat, there can be the tendency for a few strong-personality players to dominate play, while in combat the amount of time between turns means that players can grow bored. Here are some tips that I've found useful:

1) Outside of combat, ask each character in turn what they'll be doing where appropriate. This allows each character to get some "screen time." Use opportunities to allow quieter people some attention, such as NPC's speaking to them before other characters. I'm still working on these techniques, however; maybe someone else has more advice?

2) In-combat, use "initiative cards" that both serve to mark where a player is in the initiative order and record some vital stats. This speeds up combat.

3) Have a set limit on the amount of time that a player has to decide and declare their action; I set a limit of ten to fifteen seconds. If they don't know what they're going to do, I inform them firmly but not disrespectfully that their character is delaying their action until they know what they're going to do.

4) I encourage players to think of what their character will do before they roll. Some players even take it upon themselves (like me, when I play) to make the relevant rolls before they act and/or roll attack and damage at the same time to speed up play.

5) Optionally, roll initiative for characters well in advance. Obviously, you need some of the PC's statistics to do this. This allows you to get into the action right away instead of waiting for a long period to figure out when everyone acts. Some groups (including mine) appreciate the dramatic tension of rolling for initiative, though ("What is that monster? What'll I do to defeat it?").

6) This is extremely important: be decisive in your rule calls. At times, you may not know a rule or your players may contest it. You must make a call decisively, even if it might be wrong, for the sake of keeping gameplay flowing. Encourage the player to look up the relevant rule while you keep the game moving. If you end up being wrong, so be it! Follow the rule in future instances. For now, though, you've kept the game from grinding to a halt as your group spends a half-hour looking through books to figure out some rule that probably has a minimal impact on play.

In short, the most important thing to do as a DM in a large group is keep your players interested. You do that by not having players feel left out or ignored and by keeping the game moving. If you can do these things, you can manage a group of almost any size.

Wow, that helps so much, you have no idea. My second session went really smoothly! Thank you kindly for all of your advice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
damixmastermike 02-10-07, 02:30 PM	I have my own forums on a msn group site and when I posted that I was writing up a new campaign and a new realm for it, I got nine PCs to come to my first session. I changed a handful of combat rules: 1) I have multiple PCs role at the same time (as long as they're doing some kind of general action that doesn't really, really affect other players, like hack-and-slash fighting, damage spells, etc.) 2) I've made it so that my PCs only have a few seconds to tell me what they're doing 3) I do an excessive amount of yelling etc. etc. etc. ---MY PROBLEM--- Role Playing is extremely difficult. My PCs and I put a stronger emphasis on this more then we do on hack-and-slash, but people can't get their role-playing across with some many people. Please post suggestions and links to anything that could help Thanks!
Wayside 02-10-07, 02:51 PM	I spent a year or two in a group of clsoe to that size. Combat can become a big problem if you're not careful as a DM. Since there are so many players, their technical group level means they need to be put up against higher CR. The problem is that you still need to keep the CR of individual opponents close to the group's level. Them fighting one big BBEG will almost assuredly result in a lot of player deaths. With a group that big you'll have to make liberal use of the DMG's encounter numbers chart on pg 49. Say, for example you have 9 6th level characters, you can combine them by treating them as creatures of CR equal to their ECL. So, we see on the chart that 9 6th level characters are roughly equivalent to a single 12th level character. We then see that a single lvl 12 can be broken down into 4 lvl 8's. So the parties effective level is 8. CR 8 is what D&D would consider a moderate challenge for the group. The difference isn't that bad here between the character's actual levels and and the CR, but it can get pretty severe if you have characters of different level in the group (which in my experience happened fairly often with people missing games, getting killed, etc..). As for the roleplaying aspect, that never really got resolved, some people eventually got phased out of most conversations and eventually there were a handful of key survivors that made up the main group while the rest were like cannon fodder being tossed in due to our DM's experience penalty for death.
Averroes 02-10-07, 04:35 PM	9 players......yuck 5 is the most I will run at a time. I used to play in bigger groups, it just gets messy. My advice is to cut people out. Possibly get them to run another group at the same time. I had to split my groups up to two nights because we had too many players for one. Now I have BOTH groups at 5 players(not counting DM) and there are still some people who want to join, but I know what will happen if I just let one more person in. But if you HAVE to do it with that many people I'd suggest keep it really low levels. If you are focued on RP then I've found levels don't really matter, and when the sword hits the board your combat will be as painless as possibe.
Olskool 02-10-07, 04:43 PM	Split em up. For your own sanity's sake, split em up.
Chimaera2000 02-10-07, 06:03 PM	I have DM'ed large groups (roughly 7-8 people) and it is an art that I'd recommend to experienced DM's. Outside of combat, there can be the tendency for a few strong-personality players to dominate play, while in combat the amount of time between turns means that players can grow bored. Here are some tips that I've found useful: 1) Outside of combat, ask each character in turn what they'll be doing where appropriate. This allows each character to get some "screen time." Use opportunities to allow quieter people some attention, such as NPC's speaking to them before other characters. I'm still working on these techniques, however; maybe someone else has more advice? 2) In-combat, use "initiative cards" that both serve to mark where a player is in the initiative order and record some vital stats. This speeds up combat. 3) Have a set limit on the amount of time that a player has to decide and declare their action; I set a limit of ten to fifteen seconds. If they don't know what they're going to do, I inform them firmly but not disrespectfully that their character is delaying their action until they know what they're going to do. 4) I encourage players to think of what their character will do before they roll. Some players even take it upon themselves (like me, when I play) to make the relevant rolls before they act and/or roll attack and damage at the same time to speed up play. 5) Optionally, roll initiative for characters well in advance. Obviously, you need some of the PC's statistics to do this. This allows you to get into the action right away instead of waiting for a long period to figure out when everyone acts. Some groups (including mine) appreciate the dramatic tension of rolling for initiative, though ("What is that monster? What'll I do to defeat it?"). 6) This is extremely important: be decisive in your rule calls. At times, you may not know a rule or your players may contest it. You must make a call decisively, even if it might be wrong, for the sake of keeping gameplay flowing. Encourage the player to look up the relevant rule while you keep the game moving. If you end up being wrong, so be it! Follow the rule in future instances. For now, though, you've kept the game from grinding to a halt as your group spends a half-hour looking through books to figure out some rule that probably has a minimal impact on play. In short, the most important thing to do as a DM in a large group is keep your players interested. You do that by not having players feel left out or ignored and by keeping the game moving. If you can do these things, you can manage a group of almost any size.
damixmastermike 02-12-07, 03:37 PM	I have DM'ed large groups (roughly 7-8 people) and it is an art that I'd recommend to experienced DM's. Outside of combat, there can be the tendency for a few strong-personality players to dominate play, while in combat the amount of time between turns means that players can grow bored. Here are some tips that I've found useful: 1) Outside of combat, ask each character in turn what they'll be doing where appropriate. This allows each character to get some "screen time." Use opportunities to allow quieter people some attention, such as NPC's speaking to them before other characters. I'm still working on these techniques, however; maybe someone else has more advice? 2) In-combat, use "initiative cards" that both serve to mark where a player is in the initiative order and record some vital stats. This speeds up combat. 3) Have a set limit on the amount of time that a player has to decide and declare their action; I set a limit of ten to fifteen seconds. If they don't know what they're going to do, I inform them firmly but not disrespectfully that their character is delaying their action until they know what they're going to do. 4) I encourage players to think of what their character will do before they roll. Some players even take it upon themselves (like me, when I play) to make the relevant rolls before they act and/or roll attack and damage at the same time to speed up play. 5) Optionally, roll initiative for characters well in advance. Obviously, you need some of the PC's statistics to do this. This allows you to get into the action right away instead of waiting for a long period to figure out when everyone acts. Some groups (including mine) appreciate the dramatic tension of rolling for initiative, though ("What is that monster? What'll I do to defeat it?"). 6) This is extremely important: be decisive in your rule calls. At times, you may not know a rule or your players may contest it. You must make a call decisively, even if it might be wrong, for the sake of keeping gameplay flowing. Encourage the player to look up the relevant rule while you keep the game moving. If you end up being wrong, so be it! Follow the rule in future instances. For now, though, you've kept the game from grinding to a halt as your group spends a half-hour looking through books to figure out some rule that probably has a minimal impact on play. In short, the most important thing to do as a DM in a large group is keep your players interested. You do that by not having players feel left out or ignored and by keeping the game moving. If you can do these things, you can manage a group of almost any size. Wow, that helps so much, you have no idea. My second session went really smoothly! Thank you kindly for all of your advice.