| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| TheCheeseWiddler10-12-06, 02:44 AM | *Another deep, sorrowful sigh* So, not only do both of my players want to be dragons, they're a couple in real life...how romanticly nerdy. *slightly vomits in mouth* I have an issue of dragon magazine that gives the templete for dragon characters, so I'm not really at a loss there, execept for when everything becomes epic level...that, I don't even want to think about at this stage in the game. I've only got two real problems. One, they want to be opposing breeds. A red dragon, and a silver dragon. I've always assumed that, even though they might even share an alignment (on rare occasions) that there'd still be racial tention. Even more so when a red dragon is involved. (Them being so pompus, and proud.) Two...I have NO FREAKING CLUE, EVEN WHERE TO BEGIN on any sort of adventure for two dragons! The only thing I can really imagine would be either warfare, or diplomacy...both of which would get boring after a time. *shakes head* Help me out here people...I beg of you. -Ky |
| ressurrector10-12-06, 02:51 AM | As I recall the more powerfull dragons can change shape to appear human. Perhaps they both joined the same adventuring party, and neither one knows the other is actually a dragon (they think eachother to be human). This way they can get to know eachother before they start outright hostilities due to racial issues. Of course it involves everyone RPing and preventing any meta-gaming. |
| RK)1310-12-06, 02:55 AM | Well, if they really want to play dragons, you can all chip in for a copy of the Draconomicon, which has rules for playing dragon characters. One of the more interesting takes it has in ther is two actually have two parties, one of humans bonded to the dragons, and one of dragons. That way, the humans can go into the dungeon crawls and such while the dragons can do more epic things. |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-12-06, 02:58 AM | Hmm, thats not too bad. I was planning on just starting them out as wyrmlings (level 1) and working their way up, but i might just boost them up to whatever level it takes for them to get the polymorph. But the issue still remains, what would two polymorphed dragons join an adventuring party for? It'd have to be something rather grand. Something grand enough to interest atleast a couple of dragons. I can wor with this, thanks Ress. -Ky |
| Majick10-12-06, 02:59 AM | what about the draconic lineage feats for some casters? Spell scales? dragon rawt? (<--spelling?) Half-Dragon template? Can't they just play one of those? It's easy to just say to them "Look, dragons are a bit out of the question, why not simply play two humans with the half-dragon templates of opposing colours?" It might work, and if not, then i would still suggest not allowing it, because whenever something like this is done when they reciece nothing but racial hitdice, players tend to ge bored real quick because they can't change it up if they need too :P i wouldn't allow it in my game |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-12-06, 03:00 AM | Well, if they really want to play dragons, you can all chip in for a copy of the Draconomicon, which has rules for playing dragon characters. One of the more interesting takes it has in ther is two actually have two parties, one of humans bonded to the dragons, and one of dragons. That way, the humans can go into the dungeon crawls and such while the dragons can do more epic things. I've got the pdf of The Draconomicon, I'll defietly be delving into it alot more now. -Ky |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-12-06, 03:05 AM | what about the draconic lineage feats for some casters? Spell scales? dragon rawt? (<--spelling?) Half-Dragon template? Can't they just play one of those? It's easy to just say to them "Look, dragons are a bit out of the question, why not simply play two humans with the half-dragon templates of opposing colours?" It might work, and if not, then i would still suggest not allowing it, because whenever something like this is done when they reciece nothing but racial hitdice, players tend to ge bored real quick because they can't change it up if they need too :P i wouldn't allow it in my game Thats what I've been asking myself...I've suggested it. It was completely ignored. But when I told them flat out 'no' about them being dragons, they asked for a reason. I told them that dragons were too overly powered, and didn't level up the same as normal people, it would be too much hassle. But I'll be damned if they aren't persistent. I'm thinking I might just tell them no, purely for the fact that I can't think of anything really good for them to do. But I guess I'm kind of interested in running a game like this, but I just can't come up with anything to base an adventure off of. Which is why I'm posting here. -Ky |
| High Octane10-12-06, 03:25 AM | How experienced are you as a DM? How experienced are they as players? How much time have they spent playing with you as a DM? In short, have they EARNED the right to play such an exotic type of character? Think about this: It will end up requiring excess work on your part, both in character creation and world handling. It will affect the other players vastly. Things WILL be harder for you and will require more time for you to plan for them. Be honest and decide in your opinion, will they take these strange characters seriously and with a good dose of maturity, or will they just play with it a session until they are bored and find something shinier? If these players have earned that right, by all means do it. For the record, the dragons would adventure just for curiosity mainly. Being dragons they will automatically look at humanoids as inferior beings. Not with hate so much as pity, or at best empathy. The same way many people view animals. And yes, they like the shinies. |
| WayneTheGame10-12-06, 06:58 AM | How about something from Races of the Dragon? It's still a draconic character but not the full-on, flying, breath weapon using, oh my god its going to kill us dragon. Failing that, start the game at ECL 4 and let them both make 1st level half-dragon characters. |
| CrystalSeraph10-12-06, 10:05 AM | Personally, I'd cackle if my players wanted to play such disparate characters. The potential for hilarity and character development is enormous: see it as a challange and a way of having fun, and you're halfway there. If these guys are the only two in the party, there are numerous ways they can be bought together. Start them off as wyrmlings hatched from stolen eggs in a wizard's keep, or a rogue's guild or something - they are intended for sacrifice/spells/cult/etc and have little choice but to work together or die, and dragons are nothing if not self preserving. You can have them schooled under clerics of a neutral dragon god, where they become aware of the need for harmony between dragonkinds lest they kill themselves into extinction and set off as a pair of diplomats to war against dragon prejudice. The red dragon character may be an insidious rogue attempting to trick the silver out of their horde through acting reformed, or vice versa. The options are endless, really. If you are intimidated by the high power level of dragons, then try this: have them cursed into human form, denied most of their abilities until they break the curse, and the quest requires both of them to be present. That can involve a full story arc, and give you plenty of time to adjust to the player's dragons specifically and PC dragons in general. They may be able to release their powers over time, and it gives huge space for character development and resolution. If they are completely incompatible alignments, let them duke it out. They can scratch each other up every now and then: as they're a couple, it may even be thereputic XD |
| CrossBlade10-12-06, 10:14 AM | what would two polymorphed dragons join an adventuring party for? -Ky Treasure, a lair, revenge a fallen parent, power, underlings for thier treasure-filled lair, good dragons want companionship, a means to overcome thier racial weakenes to become more powerful, want to obtain/destroy/whatever those orbs that control dragons of a certain color (I know it's a simple name, but I can't remember what it's called right now), to show the power of thier god Bahamut/Taimat, to bring peace/war to the land.... If you want to make dragons rare in your campaign, they can be on a search for other dragons. Failing all and any of those... they'll be the player's characters, make THEM think of a reason as to why they want to adventure! |
| Arganis10-12-06, 10:24 AM | Personally, I'd cackle if my players wanted to play such disparate characters. The potential for hilarity and character development is enormous: see it as a challange and a way of having fun, and you're halfway there. If these guys are the only two in the party, there are numerous ways they can be bought together. Start them off as wyrmlings hatched from stolen eggs in a wizard's keep, or a rogue's guild or something - they are intended for sacrifice/spells/cult/etc and have little choice but to work together or die, and dragons are nothing if not self preserving. You can have them schooled under clerics of a neutral dragon god, where they become aware of the need for harmony between dragonkinds lest they kill themselves into extinction and set off as a pair of diplomats to war against dragon prejudice. The red dragon character may be an insidious rogue attempting to trick the silver out of their horde through acting reformed, or vice versa. The options are endless, really. Amen. There are plenty of ways to do this, and CrystalSeraph's advice is great. Of course, almost every one of these ways is ripe for a little Romeo and Juliet action. I'm sure your two lovebirds would eat that sort of thing up. If you are intimidated by the high power level of dragons, then try this: have them cursed into human form, denied most of their abilities until they break the curse, and the quest requires both of them to be present. That can involve a full story arc, and give you plenty of time to adjust to the player's dragons specifically and PC dragons in general. They may be able to release their powers over time, and it gives huge space for character development and resolution. Alternatively, don't be intimidated by the high power level of dragons. You have two players who are both dragons. Who are they unbalanced against? You? You mean they are overpowered compared to the 20th level lich-sorceror-warrior-king? That's hyperbolic, I know, but seriously. If all your players are at the same power level, all you have to do is up ELs in your adventures. It may take some fine-tuning to figure out exactly what constitutes a "20% Challenge" but the problem will go away. If they are completely incompatible alignments, let them duke it out. They can scratch each other up every now and then: as they're a couple, it may even be thereputic XD Now that's hot. |
| Kradlo10-12-06, 10:26 AM | A few things. Number one, as GM you have the final say on things. It's your game, your rules. If you don't want to allow a race, class, feat, ability, or whatever, it's your choice to make. You do the hard work and preparation to run the game, and you have to deal with the consequences of allowing in anything you think would be disruptive to the game or difficult to handle. That said, as a GM we try to make our game enjoyable for the players. That sometimes means granting a request, even if it means more work for us. Don't give them everything they want all the time, or you'll be in a hopeless spiral, but if this would make your players happy and you're willing to do it, there are ways to do it. For the mechanical aspect, you can use the savage progressions from Draconomicon and Dragon 332 for the silver and red dragon, respectively. You can start them at ECL 1, or whatever level you feel best. I don't know your campaign setting, but Eberron dragons don't necessarily follow the traditional alignments. Your campaign may typically have chaotic evil red dragons and lawful good silver dragons, as per the MM. Even under those conditions, there may be a rare exception to the rule. You could decide that there had been a battle that verged upon apocalyptic proportions, where a hellgate had been opened. The fiends were bent upon the domination of the continent, and the eradication of any resistance, regardless of the source. This had sparked an alliance of forces that would otherwise have been deadly enemies. Dragons, both chromatic and metallic, banded together to face a mutual foe, because the alternative was annihilation. A silver dragoness found herself battling side-by-side with a red dragoness. The two were victorious against their fiendish opponents, but the red dragon was mortally wounded. The silver dragon had been awestruck by the courage and tenacity demonstrated by the red, and was moved to grant her a boon before she died. The red dragoness lifted her head, and asked that the silver see to her clutch. The red dragon's eggs had been destroyed by the fiends, but one remained unbroken. The silver dragon took it with her to her lair, and raised it as her own. That can solve the "always chaotic evil" part, but you can work it however you think best. |
| 2nd Ed Paladin10-12-06, 10:31 AM | I would let them play as dragons. I wouldn't start as wyrmlings though, they are just to weak to do the type of adventures that they obviously want to. An adventure idea would be to have a kingdom of humans create an artifact that can control dragons (like the Dragon Orbs in Dragonlance) and have the characters try to end the threat to Dragonkind. |
| Puskara10-12-06, 10:34 AM | If you have the Dragon magazines with the dragon progressions then you are set. 1. Forbid them to play mixed dragon types. If you normally forbid evil alignments then they need to play mettalic dragons. If the party is evil, then chrimatics. 2. Dragons might join a party out of sheer greed. There are also other options. Dragon make plans that take years to achieve and do very odd things to make all the traces of their plans come together. Another option is that they adopt the parties as pets. Thus they would insist on cleaning and grooming the party, hunting game for the party to eat, brushing and stying their hair. Think about people who show dogs for a living. Then there is sheer hubris. They want to be famous. Dragons are grand at 1000 years old. At 20 they want sex and loot. Best of luck. Puskara |
| Kreistor110-12-06, 10:43 AM | Cheese Widdler, this is a job for Eberron. DUnh dunh duhh. Okay, enough dramatics. I'm serious. Eberron includes a different attitude for dragons which you may find more useful for a dragon -based campaign. First, Eberron's dragons are not restricted by alignment. A red can be Good and a Silver can be evil. This would allow the players to discard the first hurdle. Second, Eberron dragons are organized. They rule one of 4.5 continents, with no humanoids allowed. This gives them a familiar base and their own society. Dragons also associate and work together. Second major hurdle solved. Third, Eberron dragons work together to try to figure out the "draconic prophecy". The prophecy is a plot device, as complex or as simple as you, the DM, need it to be. This provides a solid hook you can use to involve the pair in whatever aspect of the world you need. Third hurdle solved. From there, it's all over but the details. Heheh... yeah, still daunting, but here's some initial ideas for a campaign. A pair of wyrmlings encounter each other. They are too young not to know better, so they begin to fight. Then the one that is winning spots something in a bush... it's not some thing in the bush, it's something in the bush... the way the branches are shaped, the way the leaves rustle together. "Hold it. Look at that." So the dragon abandons the fight and goes over to study the bush. The other combatant says, "Are you barmy it's... just... a... bush?" The dragons spend the rest of the year studying the bush together, and figure out that it prophesizes some event involving some humans on Khorvaire. If two dragons interfere, the way of peace will be increased, or some such sappy BS. So that's the first adventure. Interfere with this event. It could be just a bunch of bandits, or helping adventurers by taking otu the bad things before they get there, or even ensuring the adventurers don't actually reach the dungeon. (Providing an ironic inversion of classic DnD. The dragons are attacking the party, but now the players see that motive isn't always so simple as DM's lead one to believe.) From there, this interference brings them to the attention of the Chamber. The Chamber is the right kind of group for adventuring dragons to belong to. Anyway if you decide to go the Eberron route, pop over to the Eberron forums and ask for help. |
| CrossBlade10-12-06, 11:00 AM | Dragons are grand at 1000 years old. At 20 they want sex and loot. You're thinking of people... and you're still off by ~5 years. :P Dragons are only ready to mate at young adulthood (age 51). (According to the draconomicon) |
| batmanjr10-12-06, 11:05 AM | I like how dragon pc's were handled in the old AD&D box set Council of the Wyrm. They have some cool ideas about how your stats aren't fully realized until later, and how long you have to sleep around your horde when you level so you can age, and finding a lair and everything. Personally I thought it was really cool, I played in that campaign and it was pretty fun. Obviously things won't convert straight accross, but still may give you some really good ideas. |
| alzoron10-12-06, 11:16 AM | Be careful with Half-Dragons at such low levels. Highly level adjusted characters with zero racial HD are incredibly vulnerable. Sure they've got cool whiz-bang abilities, but when they actually take a hit, it hurts... A LOT. With completely average rolls most Level 4 characters have anywhere between 10-30 health whereas that nifty Half-Dragon is gonna have between 6-10 health. One lucky crit from an NPC and the Half-Dragon is dead in one shot with no one in the party being high enough level to have the resources to bring them back. With that said, the Half-Dragon I'm running through a campaign has been a blast to play. Once you figure out how to think as a monster instead of a normal PC they're not all that bad. |
| Sulaco10-12-06, 11:23 AM | Are there only the two of them? No other players? if this is the case you might want to go with it as it doesn't tread on anyone else's toes. Have you consdiered perhaps having them trapped in human form? This makes recovering their draconic powers a focus of the overall campaign and sets up a great potential BBEG in teh form of whoever took said abilities away. The opposte types bit isn't too much of an issue for me either as that too can form the basis of some good rp in a Romeo & Juliet vein. Perhaps their forbidden love was discovered and now both are outcast, cutting them off from their kinds. In an effort to find peace with each other both are now neutrals, or at least striving to be so, rather than good or evil. |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-12-06, 11:26 AM | Thanks alot guys, you've given some really good input. My world was going to be my magic based world that I've been posting about on this forum. In the world there is suposed to be a semi underground dragon kingdom...I could have them play the dragons that unite the dragons, and eventualy form the kingdom. I guess there are alot of possobilities. Hmm... -Ky |
| batmanjr10-12-06, 11:29 AM | Sounds sweet. You could have a total West Side Story thing going. =) |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-12-06, 11:49 AM | Are there only the two of them? No other players? if this is the case you might want to go with it as it doesn't tread on anyone else's toes. Yeah, they're the only players. Have you consdiered perhaps having them trapped in human form? This makes recovering their draconic powers a focus of the overall campaign and sets up a great potential BBEG in teh form of whoever took said abilities away. The opposte types bit isn't too much of an issue for me either as that too can form the basis of some good rp in a Romeo & Juliet vein. Perhaps their forbidden love was discovered and now both are outcast, cutting them off from their kinds. In an effort to find peace with each other both are now neutrals, or at least striving to be so, rather than good or evil. Yeah...you should go back and read what people have posted. But see this... ...a Romeo & Juliet vein. Perhaps their forbidden love was discovered and now both are outcast... Is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. -Ky |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-12-06, 11:51 AM | Sounds sweet. You could have a total West Side Story thing going. =) NO! Haha...*shakes head, sadly continues* no... Does anyone else see this the same way that I do? -Ky |
| Hydryh10-12-06, 02:44 PM | Reason to adventure: rumors of ancient red dracolich. Has a nice lair (dragon real estate, like New York real estate, should be merged with the obituaries), has lots of loot, the silver hates him 'cause he's red, the red hates him because reds are jerks like that. To avoid in-game romance, as that seems to bug you: If they're both polymorphed, not much you can do but point out that a red would be unlikely to actually have feelings for a "lesser being." That's like a person getting romantically involved with a Pug. You might get frisky if that's your fetish, but can you really love an ugly, stupid dog with chronic respiratory problems? Once they're out of polymorph, point out that metallics and chromatics HATE each other as a general rule, and besides, one is usually LG and the other is usually CE. If they take the "we're bigger than alignment!" and "love conquers all!" routes, your last resort is an Orb of Dragonkind in the red or silver flavor. Some lich or fiend or uppity mortal has gotten his greasy mitts on it, and now Mr./Ms. Loveydovey is effectivly LE and under your control. It can make for a fun story-arc and a great rp opportunity if the player can actually stay in character, and as a bonus if they whine you can comment that dragons have downsides too, and no-one has ever bothered to make an Orb of Halflingkind. |
| chava10-12-06, 04:52 PM | This may have already been brought up, but I remember reading an adventure that involved a little kobold who finds abandoned, lost, or stolen dragon eggs and ensures (or gives his darn little best) that they hatch. Once they hatch he raises them - at he does his best to try to turn the naturally evil dragons good. In the adventure he had a two baby dragons guarding the door (i think a silver and white - but I can't remember, am sure it was a metalic and color though). They had no problems with each other bc they had been raised together. (For reference, I pretty sure I was reading Dragondown Grotto) |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-12-06, 05:13 PM | Reason to adventure: rumors of ancient red dracolich. Has a nice lair (dragon real estate, like New York real estate, should be merged with the obituaries), has lots of loot, the silver hates him 'cause he's red, the red hates him because reds are jerks like that. To avoid in-game romance, as that seems to bug you: If they're both polymorphed, not much you can do but point out that a red would be unlikely to actually have feelings for a "lesser being." That's like a person getting romantically involved with a Pug. You might get frisky if that's your fetish, but can you really love an ugly, stupid dog with chronic respiratory problems? Once they're out of polymorph, point out that metallics and chromatics HATE each other as a general rule, and besides, one is usually LG and the other is usually CE. If they take the "we're bigger than alignment!" and "love conquers all!" routes, your last resort is an Orb of Dragonkind in the red or silver flavor. Some lich or fiend or uppity mortal has gotten his greasy mitts on it, and now Mr./Ms. Loveydovey is effectivly LE and under your control. It can make for a fun story-arc and a great rp opportunity if the player can actually stay in character, and as a bonus if they whine you can comment that dragons have downsides too, and no-one has ever bothered to make an Orb of Halflingkind. Quote: Originally Posted by TheCheeseWiddler Quote: Originally Posted by batmanjr Sounds sweet. You could have a total West Side Story thing going. =) NO! Haha...*shakes head, sadly continues* no... Does anyone else see this the same way that I do? -Ky First, to Batmanjr... West Side Story is Romeo and Juliet, and should never be referenced in lieu of Romeo and Juliet when attempting to describe the content therein. Seriously, do you refer to "The Lion King" instead of "Hamlet"? Or "10 Things I hate About You" instead of "Taming of the Shrew"? Give me a break! Second, to Widdler, you have two potentially romantically involved characters from two very different and diametrically opposed races. Hate to break it to you, but it's already Romeo and Juliet. HAHAHAHA! You guys crack me up. I've gotten an offer from a friend to step in and break things up a bit, and I think I'm going to be playing an NPC also. So that'll add to the mix, and will hopefully seperate them a little more. And the fact that my friend that offered to help, gets on the nerves of mr.lovely-dovey-cliche-dragon-love, and that he and I work together pretty well to annoy people, this should turn out to be a pretty interesting campaign. -Ky |
| LordHawkeye10-12-06, 05:28 PM | How does it work with dragon chars anyway? Do you just pick an age category and then they just gain class levels? (since aging takes longer than any campaign would run for) |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-12-06, 09:40 PM | How does it work with dragon chars anyway? Do you just pick an age category and then they just gain class levels? (since aging takes longer than any campaign would run for) Um, it's not too much different from making any other monster character. In the draconomicon, and one issue of dragon magazine give listings of the advancemnts and what not. Ive decided that I'm going to let them play dragons, but I'm going to advance them by age, but I'm going to let them be young adult or so. That way they aren't completely powerless. -Ky |
| Solik10-13-06, 01:22 AM | Cliche dragon love? I didn't know that was cliche already. At any rate, looks to me like there's problems here beyond the dragon thing. You're worried about romance in general. They could be elf and drow and you'd have the same problem. Or a pair of gnomes (probably even worse). Don't mix your problems. It's easy to handle dragons if you focus on that problem alone, as most people in this thread have done. If you want to avoid them playing out any romance, you're going to need to talk with them beforehand to see just what it is they're looking to get out of this game. You're probably not going to really be able to avoid it. The inclusion of another person could be helpful, except you used the word "annoy" more than once. I don't know much about the workings of you and your friends, but to me, that just sounds like group disintegration waiting to happen. I'd be surprised if you made it two sessions. |
| Iry10-13-06, 01:25 AM | Draconomicon is a bad idea. Sure, it's got a lot of very useful and entertaining fluff, but it's method of draconic progression is seriously lacking. I've tried it twice now and come to the conclusion that the Monsterous Manual CR (with tiny modificiations) is the only way to truly gauge the abilities of the Dragon. Because, trust me, dragon racial levels are inferior to most base class levels. d12 HD? Good saves? Perfect Bab? That's nothing compared to the Level Adjustment hit and the inferior abilities, especially early on in the dragons life. In any case, go ahead and DM them as dragons. It will make some hilarious and delightful roleplay, and everybody having fun is really what D&D is all about. Ps. Silver Dragons will Polymorph ages before Red Dragons do. Your silver will be running around incognito while the red is bristling bright for everyone to see. |
| Sulaco10-13-06, 11:03 AM | Is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. Then tell them "no." There is no need to get your back up about it. |
| Sulaco10-13-06, 11:08 AM | I've gotten an offer from a friend to step in and break things up a bit, and I think I'm going to be playing an NPC also. So that'll add to the mix, and will hopefully seperate them a little more. And the fact that my friend that offered to help, gets on the nerves of mr.lovely-dovey-cliche-dragon-love, and that he and I work together pretty well to annoy people, this should turn out to be a pretty interesting campaign. So it seems that you are actually not interested in ways to run this game in a manner which your players would find interesting, rather you are looking for a way to prevent them having fun. Why didn't you just say that from the start? It would've saved a lot of us the bother of taking your request seriously and wasting our time responding to it. If you are the DM you can screw them over any way you like. Enjoy. |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-13-06, 11:27 AM | Draconomicon is a bad idea. Sure, it's got a lot of very useful and entertaining fluff, but it's method of draconic progression is seriously lacking. I've tried it twice now and come to the conclusion that the Monsterous Manual CR (with tiny modificiations) is the only way to truly gauge the abilities of the Dragon. Because, trust me, dragon racial levels are inferior to most base class levels. d12 HD? Good saves? Perfect Bab? That's nothing compared to the Level Adjustment hit and the inferior abilities, especially early on in the dragons life. Yeah, I'm not really worried about that. I doubt they'll be on this adventure for very long. The inclusion of another person could be helpful, except you used the word "annoy" more than once. I don't know much about the workings of you and your friends, but to me, that just sounds like group disintegration waiting to happen. I'd be surprised if you made it two sessions. Haha. That's kind of how it works in my circle of friends. We're all pretty much a bunch of a-holes. I've decided to make my other friend that'll be joining the two dragons, into a god-like, epic mage/hobo. And I'll basicly have him drive the game. He'll be the reason the dragons are together, he'll be their adventure. I'm going to start the dragons out at an apointed age, so they'll be of equal enough power. Lots of magical, and cursed items. I'm just going to make things completely absurd. Ha...this should be. -Ky |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-13-06, 11:31 AM | So it seems that you are actually not interested in ways to run this game in a manner which your players would find interesting, rather you are looking for a way to prevent them having fun. Why didn't you just say that from the start? It would've saved a lot of us the bother of taking your request seriously and wasting our time responding to it. If you are the DM you can screw them over any way you like. Enjoy. I was in the begining, and I greatly appreciate everyone's help, and input. Honestly. But things have been blown completely out of proportion on this side of things. Theres only so much a dm can take... And if they actually play it off well, and take things, atleast some what, seriously then I'll try my best to turn it into something legit. But if they do what I'm figuring them on doing, and playing it like a couple of 'Hoo-hoo! Look at me, I'm a dragon!' numb-skulls, then I'm gonna try to have a little fun in the process of the downward spiral. -Ky |
| Sulaco10-13-06, 01:16 PM | I was in the begining, and I greatly appreciate everyone's help, and input. Honestly. But things have been blown completely out of proportion on this side of things. Theres only so much a dm can take... And if they actually play it off well, and take things, atleast some what, seriously then I'll try my best to turn it into something legit. But if they do what I'm figuring them on doing, and playing it like a couple of 'Hoo-hoo! Look at me, I'm a dragon!' numb-skulls, then I'm gonna try to have a little fun in the process of the downward spiral. Point taken. If things are going to crash and burn that badly you might as well have some fun and ride that downword spiral like a water slide. ;) |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-13-06, 01:47 PM | Point taken. If things are going to crash and burn that badly you might as well have some fun and ride that downword spiral like a water slide. ;) Ha, thank you. -Ky |
| aotrscommander10-13-06, 02:05 PM | If you haven't sorted the characters yet, TheCheeseWiddler, I have spent some hours working dragons into a character class, partially based on the monster class concept and the ideas on PC dragons in the Draconomican. While they are not standard D&D chromatic/metallic types, and I must stress I haven't played with them to test them yet, but you might find something of use; if you're interested in having a look, I'd be happy to post them up (but be aware, it's quite extensive!) Otherwise, I commend you for your efforts and hope that you manage to enjoy the ensuing mass carnage! |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-15-06, 07:53 PM | If you haven't sorted the characters yet, TheCheeseWiddler, I have spent some hours working dragons into a character class, partially based on the monster class concept and the ideas on PC dragons in the Draconomican. While they are not standard D&D chromatic/metallic types, and I must stress I haven't played with them to test them yet, but you might find something of use; if you're interested in having a look, I'd be happy to post them up (but be aware, it's quite extensive!) Otherwise, I commend you for your efforts and hope that you manage to enjoy the ensuing mass carnage! Yeah man, go for it. Thanks. -Ky |
| Pangeon10-15-06, 09:02 PM | Ive decided that I'm going to let them play dragons, but I'm going to advance them by age, but I'm going to let them be young adult or so. That way they aren't completely powerless. -Ky Are you kidding? They have to be young adult to not be "completly powerless?" Even wyrmling dragons are powerful when put in an adventuring party... A wyrmling silver dragon, for example, is effectivly an 11th level character. (7 racial hit dice and a +4 level adjustment.) I'd highly reccomend letting them start as wyrmling and picking up class levels after that. (Heck, they stop listing level adjustments after the 3rd age category, you shouldn't even be playing dragons older than young...) |
| CindyKay10-16-06, 12:07 AM | I have no idea which of these suggestions you intend to use in your campaign, but I REALLY want to know how this campaign works out for you. I'm interested in which way you decide to handle the situation - have they been cursed to human form? Raised together so their differences don't matter as much as their relationship? Sent on a quest together? Allied for a quest with a different outcome/purpose involved for each of them? Please post to let us know what you decide and how they react once they're actually gaming this scenario. I've been playing for nearly 30 years and have never ever seen more than 1 dragon color at a time.:) And am dying to know how they'd interact on a regular basis. And my favorite of the suggestions so far is the "both in human form and young enough to be unaware the other is a dragon" one. |
| DarthMarasmus10-16-06, 02:04 AM | Well, Pangeon, not to knock you or anything, but my old roommate and I made a hell of a game with me playing a great wyrm bronze (technically I was a lycanthropic dragon, less spell casting, more out and out melee nastiness). By the end of the game, my my strength was at 50, I had nearly 1500 HP, and 25 character levels on top of the dragon hit dice (yeah, we went super-epic). Basically, the only things that stood a chance against my character were deities and other really BAMF dragons (including the Dragon of Athas). Basically, that was just a "let's make the baddest mofo possible and throw things at it until it dies" game, but it was fun nonetheless. |
| aotrscommander10-16-06, 09:18 AM | Yeah man, go for it. Thanks. -Ky Righto. To avoid using huge amounts of space (this is quite extensive!) I will use sblocks. Some notes: the world this dragon was designed for uses a different cosmology, uses Mana points rather than the standard spell systems. I have attempted to remove and replace any references to those for ease of use outside the world! But I mention this in case there's any bits I missed. These are not the iconic D&D dragons, so you will need to add stat modifiers, subtype and add the correct breath weapon types (or types!) for standard dragons; that said this might gve you a basis to work from. Again, I say I haven't tested these rules yet, but the bestiary dragon I worked up seemed not a million miles from the CR of a similar HD/size dragon from the MM. I suspect they may tend towards the slightly more powerful end of the scale, but it may not matter in this instance! Monster Class Pramble (included for things further down to make sense). MONSTER CLASSES Monster classes do not gain level-dependant benefits (skills, saves, BAB, feats or ability score increases) on their ECL but rather their HD (as indicated within the tables). All level-based benefits are listed within the table of each monster class for clarity. Ability score bonuses and other abilities gained at ECL 1 are given in the Species Traits section. Underneath this section (where the bullet points end) is the description of all special attacks or qualities given in the tables above. Monster entries in the Bestiary already include ability score adjustments based on these monster class. Once the basic monster class is complete, the character may then start a new class as normal. Basic Monster classes are discounted for the purposes of multiclassing. Some monsterous races will only have a basic class (i.e Gryphons). Once this class is completed, they advance by normal character class. Some monsterous races (i.e. Great Drakes) have one or more advanced monster classes. These are treated like Prestige Classes, for which the requirement for entry is to be a member of that race who has completed their basic Monster Class. These monster ‘prestige’ classes gain level-dependant benefits as usual based on character level as normal (and they are thus not listed on the tables). The monster class is freely multiclassed, even if the character would normally be unable to do so without incurring a penalty (thus a Dragon Monk or Paladin can always multiclass between it’s chosen Dragon class and the character class). Any Hit Dice gained from either basic or advanced monster classes are treated as Racial, rather than experienced-based Hit Dice (thus for example, are not dropped if the skeleton template is applied to them). Non Humanoid Weapon Proficiencies A non-humanoid-shaped creature physically incapable of using normal manufactured weapons and wearing or putting on armour that gains a class level which grants weapon and armour proficiancies loses these feats are they are replaced with the one on the following list. These feats are non-cumulative (i.e. a creature only gets them once, no matter how many times they gain these proficiencies through multiclassing). The reason for this is that these creatures, being unable to focus in such weapons and armour will spend the same amount of time learning how to fight effectively without it. This goes some way to compensate for the fact such creatures cannot easily have access to magical gear. Creatures that take the Vow of Poverty feat lose the benefits of these feats and instead gain only the bonuses from that feat. Creatures with the shapechanger subtype may choose to replace feats or not, and they if they gain the proficiency a second time through multiclassing, they automatically gain the alturnative feat. Creatures that are not capable of wearing armour, but capable of being equipped with barding (like Unicorns) may take armour proficiencies as Feats, but do not gain them naturally, unless otherwise stated by their monster class. Simple Weapon Proficiencies None (Natural weapons cover this catergory) (Or Druid, Monk, Rogue and Wizard) Martial Weapon Proficiency Martial Natural Weapon Proficency Light Armour Proficiency Natural Dodge* Medium Armour Proficiency Improved Natural Armour Heavy Armour Proficiency Improved Natural Armour Shield Proficiency Natural Dodge* Tower Sheild Proficiency None * If the creature already possesses Natural Dodge, it gains Improved Natural Dodge Improved Natural Dodge [General]: Prerequisite: Abberation, Animal, Dragon, Magic Beast type, Natural Dodge Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to Armour Class when wearing no armour or carrying a light load. If you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, you lose any dodge bonuses. This bonus stacks with Natural Dodge. Martial Natural Weapon Proficency [General]: Prerequisite: None Benefit: The creature chooses which order it which to make it’s Natural Weapon attacks, treating the first such Natural weapon attack type as primary (i.e full attack bonus and the creature’s full strength bonus), and all subsequent natural weapons as secondary (reduced attack bonus and half the strength bonus). No more than one type of Natural weapon may be treated as primary in any given round. Normal: A creature has a set natural weapon attack sequence, and cannot change which weapon is it’s primary. Natural Dodge [General]: Prerequisite: Abberation, Animal, Dragon, Magic Beast type Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to Armour Class when wearing no armour or carrying a light load. If you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, you lose any dodge bonuses. Class Tables Natural Armour and Ability bonuses listed in the special section are cumulative. Other features (such as DR or skill bomuses) are not. GREAT DRAKE Dragons have an unusual advancement scheme, as their abilities are not only related to their HD and physical maturaity (i.e. Age Category), but also to their size. Size and maturity are not related. Once Dragons reach 6HD, they start multiclassing into other character classes. There are several Dragon character classes. Starting at level 9HD, and every 3 Dragon class levels thereafter, the Dragon’s age category increases by 1 level. When a Dragon is eligible for an increase in Size, it may do so in lieu of a increasing a level. Once they have reached the minimum age and HD for that size, they may increase one size catergory by spending a level increase. They do not gain any HD, base attack bonuses or skills (etc) but gain the benefits listed in the Increasing Size section below. Once a Dragon surpasses the maximum age for it’s size and has sufficent HD to increase in size, it must devote it’s next level to the size increase (whether the Dragon wishes to or not). A Dragon has one ‘free’ size class advance available to it at character generation. This may be taken at any point in the Dragon’s career, and allow it to increase on size class in lieu of a level (as above) provided it has at least the requisite HD (but wavers the age requirement). A Dragon may only do this once since character generation. Note that a Dragon cannot start at character generation older than the maximum size it can achieve at that ECL. Thus a Dragon at ECL 1 must be between 0 and 15. A Dragon starting at ECL 10 could be more more than 25, and if it was older than15 it would have to expend an ECL to grow to Small (thus making it a 9 HD/level creature and 10th level character overall.) Note that a Dragon’s racial and class HD do not reflect it’s size; a Dragon could be a 20 HD Dragon with 10 levels of fighter and still be Small provided it was no older than 15. Remember, of course, that Dragons are fully mentally developed (in terms of skills and knowledge) within mere hours of hatching, so even a new-born Dragon can be a character. Though in this latter case, the Dragon may not know that it has some skills or feats until it uses them, which can be roleplayed. Dragon Base Class Level/ Hit Fort Ref Will Skill ECL Dice BAB Save Save Save Points CR Special 1st 1D12 +1 +2 +2 +2 (6+Int mod) x 4 1 Feat, Dragon Subtype, Breath Weapon 2nd 2D12 +2 +3 +3 +3 6+Int mod 1 Natural Armour, Claw attack 3rd 3D12 +3 +3 +3 +3 6+Int mod 2 Speed 30’, Fly Speed 75’ (Average), Feat 4th 4D12 +4 +4 +4 +4 6+Int mod 2 Ability Increase 5th 5D12 +5 +4 +4 +4 6+Int mod 3 +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha 6th 6D12 +6 +5 +5 +5 6+Int mod 3 Blindsight 60’, Speed 40’, Fly Speed 100’ (Average), Feat. Species Traits: • Dragon Type • Tiny Quadruped: +2 AC, +2 on attack rolls, +8 on Hide, -8 on Grapple, lifting and carrying capacity limits are three quarters those of Medium creatures. • -2 Wis. Dragon subspecies may have other adjustments. • Space/Reach: 2½’/0. A Tiny Dragon’s bite has 5’ reach. • Base Speed: A Tiny Dragon has a base speed of 20’ and a Fly speed of 50’ (Poor). Dragon subspecies may have other adjustments. • Class skills are Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot and Use Magic Device. Dragons with Climb or Swim move speeds gain Climb or Swim as Class skills. • Keen senses: A dragon has four times the visual range in shadowy illumination and twice as much in normal light. Low-Light Vision, Darkvision 120’, Blindsight 30’. • Natural Weapon: One Bite dealing the indicated damage plus the Dragon’s Strength bonus. At 2HD, the Dragon gains two claw attacks. • Weapon and Armour Proficencies: Dragons are proficient with Simple Weapons, but not armour and shields. • Immunities: Immune to Sleep and Paralysis. • Spell Resistance: Dragons have Spell Resistance equal to 11+HD. • Lack of Manipulation: Because of their lack of hands, Dragons cannot perform delicate tasks using objects easily (though more so than other creatures with only claws). If they are called to do so, such as picking up a small object or opening a lock, they suffer an effective –4 to their Dexterity. This is in addition to any penalties for equipment of the wrong size. • Dragon Subtype: Dragons gain a subtype based on their subspecies below. • Natural Armour: Dragons have a natural armour bonus of their HD-1 (thus +1 at 2 HD). • Favoured Class: Brawler Drake, Magic Drake and Shifter Drake Breath Weapon (Su): The Dragon may use it’s Breath once every D4 rounds. The breath weapon is a line of energy of the Dragon’s subtype, dealing D6 damage +D6 for every two HD after first (Reflex save for half against DC 10+½ HD+ Con modifier). Crush (Ex): A Huge or larger Dragon flying or jumping may initiate a Crush as a Standard Action, landing on the targets. A Dragon using Pounce may use Crush instead of making any other attacks. All victims in the Dragon’s space must make a DC 10+ ½HD + Con mod Reflex save or become pinned. If the dragon remains over the target and maintains the pin, they take automatic Crush (bludgeoning) damage next and subsequent rounds, until they escape or the Dragon moves off them. This attack only affects creatures three or more size categories smaller than the Dragon. Tail Sweep (Ex): As a Standard Action, a Gargauntuan or larger Dragon can sweep it’s tail in an arc. Creatures of four or more size categories smaller than the Dragon take automatic Tail Sweep damage. They may make a Reflex save (10+½ HD+Str mod) for half damage. Size and age dependant information Increasing Size When a Dragon spends a level to increase size, it gains the following benefits. • Increased damage with natural attacks and any new natural attacks listed in the Dragon Attack Damage table below. • Ability score bonuses as follows. These bonuses are cumulative with any racial size modifers. Increase to S: +4 Str, -1 AC/Attack Increase to M: +4 Str, +2 Con, -1 AC/Attack Increase to L: +8 Str, +4 Con, -1 AC/Attack Increase to H: +8 Str, +4 Con, -1 AC/Attack Increase to G: +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 AC/Attack Increase to C: +8 Str, +4 Con, -4 AC/Attack Dragons do not gain the normal size bonuses to their natural armour, since it is already part of their advancement. Dragons gain a +2 bonus to Dex when they increase in size to Small, Medium, Large and Huge which negates the penalty Dex penalty from increasing in size. Remember that Grapple and Hide modifiers will change as well (see CR3 pg 314). Dragon Attack Damage Wing Tail Space/ Bite Claw Slam Slap Crush Tail Sweep Size Reach +Str +½ Str +½ Str +1½ Str +1½ Str +1½ Str T 2½/0 D4 (5’ reach) D3 - - - - S 5/5 D6 D4 - - - - M 5/5 D8 D6 D4 - - - L 10/5 2D6 (10’ reach) D8 D6 D8 - - H 15/10 2D8 (15’ reach) 2D6 D8 2D6 2D8 (S) - G 20/15 4D6 (20’ reach) 2D8 2D6 2D8 4D6 (M) 2D6 (30’ arc, S) C 30/20 4D8 (30’ reach) 4D6 2D8 4D6 4D8 (L) 2D8 (40’ arc, M) C+ 30/30 6D6 (40’ reach) 4D8 4D6 4D8 6D6 (H) 4D6 (40’ arc, L) All attacks apart from Bite are secondary attacks, and have a base –5 attack penalty. Dragon Size Table Minimum Age Maximum Min Lvl Base Fly Breath weapon Size Equivalent Age HD CR Adj Spd Speed line length T 0-10 15 1 +0 +0 40’* 100’ (Average)* 30’ S 11 25 3 +0 +1 40’ 100’ (Average) 40’ M 16 50 9 +1 +2 40’ 150’ (Poor) 60’ L 26 100 15 +2 +3 40’ 150’ (Poor) 50’ H 101 500 21 +3 +4 40’ 150’ (Poor) 100’ G 801 1500 33 +4 +5 40’ 200’ (Clumsy) 120’ C 1201 2500 42 +5 +6 40’ 200’ (Clumsy) 140’ C+ - - 54 +6 +7 40’ 200’ (Clumsy) 160’ * These values represent the maximum at 6 HD maturity Length of Cone breath weapons is half Line length. Dragon Age Categories Category HD Modifier Wyrmling 1-8 1 Very Young 9 2 Young 12 3 Juvenile 15 4 Young Adult 18 5 Adult 21 6 Mature Adult 24 7 Old 27 8 Very Old 30 9 Ancient 33 10 Wyrm 36 11 Great Wyrm 39 12 +3 +1 Advanced Drake Advanced Dragons choose which of the three subclasses (Brawler, Magic or Shifter) they wish to advance in. Advanced drakes gain HD and other abilties as shown on the table below, regardless of which advanced subclass they choose. They get the class abilities of their subclass of that level in addition. A dragon must decide which subclass each Dragon level is, just as with normal multiclassing. Dragons gain normal level-dependant benefits (ability scores, feat) counting only their Advanced Drake HD, not Advanced drake class levels. Thus, a 9th level Dragon would gain the benefits of the main table (9D12 HD, +9 BAB etc), but it might be a Dragon 6/Brawler Drake 2/Shifter 1 or a Dragon 6/Magic Drake 3. This assumes the Dragon has no other character classes and has not increased in size. The Dragon would have 4 feats and two ability score increases. A 12th level Dragon would only have 11HD, and thus gain no feat or ability score increase. The subclass progression below runs to 46th level (or 39 HD overall; Great Wyrm status). Advanced Drake Class Hit Fort Ref Will Skill ECL Level Dice BAB Save Save Save Points CR Special 7th 1st 7D12 +7 +5 +5 +5 6+Int mod 4 8th 2nd 8D12 +8 +6 +6 +6 6+Int mod 4 9th 3rd 8D12 +8 +6 +6 +6 - 4 +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha 10th 4th 9D12 +9 +6 +6 +6 6+Int mod 5 11th 5th 10D12 +10 +7 +7 +7 6+Int mod 5 12th 6th 11D12 +11 +7 +7 +7 6+Int mod 6 13th 7th 12D12 +12 +8 +8 +8 6+Int mod 6 14th 8th 13D12 +13 +8 +8 +8 6+Int mod 7 15th 9th 14D12 +14 +9 +9 +9 6+Int mod 7 16th 10th 14D12 +14 +9 +9 +9 - 7 +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha 17th 11th 15D12 +15 +9 +9 +9 6+Int mod 8 18th 12th 16D12 +16 +10 +10 +10 6+Int mod 8 19th 13th 17D12 +17 +10 +10 +10 6+Int mod 9 20th 14th 18D12 +18 +11 +11 +11 6+Int mod 9 Damage Reduction 5/Magic, Spell Resistance 21st 15th 19D12 +19 +11 +11 +11 6+Int mod 10 22nd 16th 20D12 +20 +12 +12 +12 6+Int mod 10 23rd 17th 20D12 +20 +12 +12 +12 - 10 +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha 24th 18th 21D12 +21 +12 +12 +12 6+Int mod 11 25th 19th 22D12 +21 +13 +13 +13 6+Int mod 11 26th 20th 23D12 +22 +13 +13 +13 6+Int mod 12 27th 21st 24D12 +22 +14 +14 +14 6+Int mod 12 Damage Reduction 10/Magic 28th 22nd 25D12 +23 +14 +14 +14 6+Int mod 13 29th 23rd 26D12 +23 +15 +15 +15 6+Int mod 13 30th 24th 26D12 +23 +15 +15 +15 - 13 +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha 31st 25th 27D12 +24 +15 +15 +15 6+Int mod 14 32nd 26th 28D12 +24 +16 +16 +16 6+Int mod 14 33rd 27th 29D12 +25 +16 +16 +16 6+Int mod 15 34th 28th 30D12 +25 +17 +17 +17 6+Int mod 15 Damage Reduction 15/Magic 35th 29th 31D12 +26 +17 +17 +17 6+Int mod 16 37th 30th 32D12 +26 +18 +18 +18 6+Int mod 16 38th 31st 32D12 +26 +18 +18 +18 - 17 +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha 39th 32nd 33D12 +27 +18 +18 +18 6+Int mod 17 40th 33rd 34D12 +27 +19 +19 +19 6+Int mod 17 41st 34th 35D12 +28 +19 +19 +19 6+Int mod 18 42nd 35th 36D12 +28 +20 +20 +20 6+Int mod 18 Damage Reduction 20/Magic 43rd 36th 37D12 +29 +20 +20 +20 6+Int mod 19 44th 37th 38D12 +29 +21 +21 +21 6+Int mod 19 45th 38th 38D12 +29 +21 +21 +21 - 19 +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha 46th 39th 39D12 +30 +21 +21 +21 6+Int mod 20 Spell Resistance: Dragons have Spell Resistance equal to 10+1/2 HD+Age Catergory. Damage Reduction (Ex): Dragons with Damage Reduction of #/Magic treat their attacks as magical for the purposes of Damage Reduction. Advanced Drake Class Level/HD Brawler Drake Magic Drake Shifter Drake 1st/7 Directed Breath, Bonus Feat Dragon Spellcaster level 1, Alturnate Form, 1 Favoured Form Eschew materials, Summon Familar 2nd/8 Bonus Feat, +1 Dragon Spellcaster level Dragon Spellcaster level 1, Dragon Spellcaster level 1, Eschew materials, Eschew materials, Summon Familar Summon Familar 3rd/8 4th/9 +1 Favoured Form 5th/10 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 6th/11 Bonus Feat 7th/12 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 8th/13 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 9th/14 Bonus Feat +1 Dragon Spellcaster level Bonus Feat 10th/14 +1 Favoured Form 11th/15 Bonus Feat 12th/16 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 13th/17 Frightful Presence, Bonus Feat +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 14th/18 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 15th/19 +1 Favoured Form 16th/20 Bonus Feat +1 Dragon Spellcaster level, Frightful Presence Frightful Presence 17th/20 18th/21 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 19th/22 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level Bonus Feat 20th/23 Bonus Feat, +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 21st/24 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level +1 Favoured Form 22nd/25 Bonus Feat 23rd/26 Bonus Feat +1 Dragon Spellcaster level +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 24th/26 25th/27 26th/28 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 27th/29 Bonus Feat +1 Favoured Form 28th/30 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level Bonus Feat 29th/31 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 30th/32 Bonus Feat +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 31st/32 32nd/33 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 33rd/34 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level +1 Favoured Form 34th/35 Bonus Feat Bonus Feat 35th/36 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level +1 Dragon Spellcaster level 36th/37 37th/38 +1 Dragon Spellcaster level, +1 Dragon Spellcaster level Bonus Feat Bonus Feat 38th/38 39th/39 +1 Favoured Form Bonus Feats: Brawler Drakes gain a bonus feat at 8HD and every 3rd HD thereafter, which may be selected from Metabreath, Monstrous or Fighter feats. Magic Drakes may choose a bonus Metamagic feat at 15HD and every 10th HD thereafter. Shifter Drakes may choose a bonus Monstrous feat at 14HD and every 8th HD thereafter. Directed Breath (Ex): A Dragon can spend a use of it’s breath weapon to target a number of adjacent 5’ spaces; up to half it’s HD as a Standard Action or up to it’s HD as a Full-Round Action. The Dragon must have line of effect to each space, and each must be adjacent to the last space targeted (except the first), but other than this the Dragon may place them as it likes (even in three dimensions). The target spaces must all be within the dragon’s maximum breath weapon range (see the dragon size table). All within a targeted space take breath weapon damage, with a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10+½HD+Con mod), along with any additional effects the breath weapon normally causes. Targeting the same space twice does not increase the damage, but each sucessive time the square is targeted (or for every square a large creature occupies that is targeted), the save DC increases by +1. A Dragon may apply Metabreath feats or spells it knows to a Directed Breath attack if it wishes. As a Full-Round action, a dragon may fly up to it’s speed and use it’s Breath Weapon (targeting up to half it’s HD spaces), optionally targeting spaces it passes over during movement. If it wishes to breath into spaces above or to the side, it must rotate it’s body; the breath is always aimed ‘below’ the dragon (due to the fact it needs to see where it’s going which it can do by looking down, but not up or to the side). If it flies in a straight line, it may make a double move and target one space per HD, but all the targeted spaces must be in a straight line along the dragon’s flight path either above, below or in front. Alternate Form (Su): At 7 HD a Shifter Dragons gains the ability to assume the form of any humanoid, animal, monstrous humanoid, giant or magic beast of between their size and Diminutive, provided that form does not have an ECL higher than the Dragon’s. Dragons can shapeshift a number of times per day equal to half it’s Dragon HD. It takes a standard action to do so. Once in the new form, they remain in that form until they change again. A Dispel Magic or Anti-or Null-magic field will not turn them back into their natural shape (though in the latter two cases they may not be able to shapeshift again until they leave the area). The Dragon will assume the form of an average member of the species. If killed, the Dragon will revert to it’s natural form (the form the Dragon spends most of it’s time in recently out of it’s Dragon or favoured forms counts as it’s natural form). Favoured Form (Ex): At 7 HD a Shifter Dragon gains Favoured Form. At 9 Shifter Drake HD, and every 5 HD thereafter, the Dragon gains an additional form. Favoured Forms use the Dragon’s base physical stats (before Dragon racial or size modifiers), plus the creature’s racial bonuses. Favoured Forms are also treated as natural forms for the purposes of effects that force shapeshifters to change shape. A favoured from is one the Dragon uses often, and is a specific individual of a species rather than a generic member. A Dragon shifting into another creature of the same species looses the benefits of favoured form. Thus, a Dragon might have the form of a human adventurer. If it shifted into another human, it would lose the benefits of Favoured Form. In addition, the Favoured form will be approximately the same physical age as the Dragon (to a maximum of a young adult if the Dragon desires). Usually, Dragons will have a humanoid race as a favoured form (typically human). Frightful Presence (Ex): This ability activates whenever the dragon attacks, charges or flies overhead. Creature within a radius of 30’ x the dragon’s age category are subject to the effect if they have less HD than the Dragon. A potentially affected creature that makes a Will save (DC 10+ ½ HD + Cha modifier) remains immune to hat dragon’s Frightful Presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures of 4 or less HD become panicked for 4D6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4D6 rounds. Dragons ignore the Frightful Presence of other dragons. Spells: Dragons learn spells and cast as Sorcerers of the indicated level shown on the class table. Advanced Dragon classes stack for determining total Dragon spellcaster class level (i.e the total Dragon spellcaster level is the total of that gained in each class). They can choose to learn spells from either sorcerer or cleric lists. Dragons are Arcane spellcasters. A dragon that has at least one level in another spellcasting class may choose to learn spells from that class as dragon spells if it wishes. All Draconic spells are Charisma-based. They automatically gain Eschew Materials and Summon Familiar Feat at spellcaster class level 1. Brawler Drakes gain one spellcaster level at 8HD (2nd Brawler Drake level) and every 5 HD thereafter. Magic Drakes gain one spellcaster level at 1st Magic Drake level and at every even HD thereafter. Shifter Drakes gain one spellcaster level at 8HD (2nd Shifter Drake level), 12HD and every 5 HD thereafter. |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-16-06, 01:12 PM | Man, aotrscommander. Ha, you weren't kidding when you said exstensive. Never nice work, man. I'm gonna have to delve into it some more, and take it into consideration. If I don't use it now, I probably will for another campaign. Thanks again, man. -Ky |
| aotrscommander10-16-06, 01:37 PM | Man, aotrscommander. Ha, you weren't kidding when you said exstensive. Never nice work, man. I'm gonna have to delve into it some more, and take it into consideration. If I don't use it now, I probably will for another campaign. Thanks again, man. -Ky No problem I appreciate the complement! (Plus I finally figures out how to convert my tables to keep their format for posting here!) My latest camapign world is designed to (hopefully) handle non-humanoid characters in quite moderate numbers, so dragons were a logical early step. They must have got redone at least three or four times; I must have spent more hours on them than almost all the other monsters/races combined, so it's good to know they might be used at some point! |
| Cinnamongrl10-17-06, 12:28 PM | As someone mentioned before Eberron - THAT is the world in which dragons adventure! 1. Dragons can be any allignment. 2. Dragons do not openly meddle in the afairs of man, so they'd be traveling as humans/elves whathave you, most of the time and are VERY interested in the dragonmarked. - there's a feat that lets dragons use their breath weapon while in alternate form. The best suggestion I can make though is to check out Races of the Dragon. The race Dragonborn might be something your players like better than an True dragon They are Dragons can be any non evil can be any metallic including platinum gain dragon aspect of choice - Breath weapon, mind ability, or wings Another good choice - especially if they're going to be playing small dragons anyway is a Dragonwrought Kobold (also in Races of the Dragon) I just finished playing a Dragonwrought Kobold (bronze) who became Dragonborn in the image of Bahamut (platinum) Ranger/Horizonwalker with Dragon Cohort Feat (Dragonomicon) giving her a young Silver as a Cohort. - one of my favorite characters ever. The silver walked around as a human/sorcerer with a small draconic "familiar". And I really wasn't unbalanced (strange as that sounds), caused no trouble. My boyfriend has also played a silver in the past, he needed to stay in human form all the time so the party didn't know he was a silver - Eberron - and being a dragon gave him nothing but Hit Dice, which you easily make 1 as per starting PC. There's no reason why you can't play a dragon at 1st level and be a balanced 1st level character, it's all about finese. It's your world if you want to give a Red Dragon Alternate form, do it. If you want to take away or change any of their abilities do it, keep in mind though Dragons lose a lot being in in another form, they take on the physical stats of the AVERAGE creature and lose their nat armor and breath weapon. Also at wyrmling they have no SR and in most cases no spells and weak spell likes. |
| TheCheeseWiddler10-17-06, 12:47 PM | As someone mentioned before Eberron - THAT is the world in which dragons adventure! Ha, I'm not worried about the world, or anything else for that matter, anymore. But I guess if I base it in an actual world, it'll be Eberron. But for the most part it's basicaly just going to be chaotic. I'm allowing natural progression, way over powered everything. I've lost all care for a legitiment campaign. That could change of course, but my hopes are down to none. I do really appreciate your suggestions, though. I'm going to keep everything in mind, just in case this campaign gets serious. -Ky |