Post/Author/DateTime	Post
albone 05-18-04, 02:15 PM	***WARNING**** This post may come off as part rant, part whine. I'm a DM running the RttoEE. My characers made 4th level characters right out of the gate. They rolled 4D6 and rerolled the lowest die once, keeping the best 3 dice rolls. I allowed them 2000 gp in gear and gold. There are 5 PC's and one NPC. The PC's are now 6th level, but are bringing up the point that they should have started off their characters with 5,500GP instead of 2,000. Because of the difference in GP, they feel their characters are not as strong as "average 6th level" despite that some of the PC's have several 18's in their ability scores. To me, my game, is balanced because of the ability score-GP exchange. Thier feeling is that they are underpowered. I've been DM'ing this group (sans one newcomer) for a very long time, and I sense the PC's are driving towards something. I think they're going to want some restituion. This has caused me to become (for the first time) very upset with them. The PC's don't know about my feelings, but I have a feeling I may take it out on them through the game, vengeful DM and all that. This possibility makes me want to quit DM'ing than ruin the game like that. So, my question is: Should I try to rectify their lack of funding (and "fix" their lack of power) through in game/ out of game scenarios? Should I ignore their arguement? Should I step down as DM before I endanger the game with anxious/angry undertones?
thalious 05-18-04, 02:19 PM	IMO, WoTC should not have made a listing for the GP value of a leveled characters gear. The listing is just a guideline, not holy writ. You could do this, give them their restitution, then later have them robbed.
Krelios 05-18-04, 02:28 PM	Ordinarily I would agree, but the RttToEE is a VERY hard adventure and they expect that the players have the magical resources available to handle it. Give them the 5500gp worth of gear, but do it with potions, wands, etc. that don't necessarily make them more powerful--just able to go longer between resting.
Tranq 05-18-04, 02:29 PM	Maybe step up the treasure a little, to appease them, but don't just give them more stuff because they've fallen behind the wealth by level tables. Ultimately, its your game to do with as you please, and as long as all party memebrs have about the same amount of stuff, they shouldn't be whining. It might be relavent to note that I have NEVER EVER seen a party progress to match the wealth by level tables. Ever. Basically, the question should not be about how they look compared to the table, but how the stand up in game. If they're doing ok, then they should quit whining, and you might want to remind them that. I realise that the above isn't entirely coherent, but I've never been good at coherent.
albone 05-18-04, 04:48 PM	I'm of the opinion that they didn't win or lose a fight based on their equipment. If a CR is 4 and there's 6 fourth level PC's, then I don't see a problem. But do you guys see a problem? should I just give them "extra" magic? The problem with that is once you give out magic, its hard to take it back.
astute1 05-18-04, 05:05 PM	I had a player who constantly griped about how much treasure he had compared to other party members, and to the chart in the back of the DMG. He used to constantly tally up how much in treasure each player had (he wasn't even last on the list!), and how that compared to the book. He also used to gripe about how he had "too much cash, and nothing to do with it" because, "The DM never put item crafters in the world for them." Eventually, he did something stupid (teleported into the king's private chamber, trying to convince the king to make him the 'hand of the throne' :rolleyes:" The guards couldn't hurt him, but eventually tricked him into putting on manacles of temporal stasis - they then took his gold and items. The party got him freed, but had to buy back his equipment to recompense for his crime. After that he left the party, saying he was unfairly punished. He then suggested that I use a new set of rules for handing out treasure - a player levels up, they get to totally re-pick their treasure from the book using the treasure tables. Yeah.
Kar-Vermin 05-19-04, 11:33 AM	First of all Albone, you're to be commended for recognizing a potential problem before it erupts and seeking advice for it. That said, it's not a cut-and-dried situation. If you do decide to bump up the treasure they find (a) you'll have to be careful it doesn't wind up being too much and (b) will the players know if it's in response to their complaint? My own experience has been players who consider their characters "underpowered" tend to have an awfully high opinion on what an "average" x-level character should have. Talk to your players, though. They knew that they would start out with less gold/gear due to the stat generation method you used. Did they accept that at the start? DO NOT give them extra swag and then take it away. Having already made this complaint OOC, they will accuse you of chicanery right off the bat, and you'd be on the losing end of an arguement (unless you are REALLY subtle about it :D ) In the end though, your last comment is the most relevant. Are the players struggling through the adventure? Yes, RTTTOEE is tough, but your party is above-average in numbers, and I assume (because you did not mention it) that you have not been scaling up the encounters within. Remember, to many players, magic and gear and weapons and so forth is "cool stuff"- a reward for their hard work, bragging rights, status symbols, etc. For a DM, it is an equalizer, a tool for assuring the PCs are roughly equivalent to each other (that's level-dependent, of course) and a gauge as to how tough you want your encounters to be. Good luck. Let us know how it works out!
simpkin 05-19-04, 12:56 PM	A tough situation in general, for players nothing is more fun than finding new treasure. For a DM too much treasure can easily ruin a campaign. If you do decide that you are comfortable with the amount of treasure in your world and believe the PC's are capable of surviving with what they have do what I do. Next time they complain just blaim it on them DM: "Geez guys I'm sorry you feel you are behind the normal treasure for characters your level. It really is just kind of bad luck as I had several really neat items hidden in that last adventure, you just just didn't happen to look in the right place. You might want to spend a few more ranks in that search skill when you level up."
Stuntman 05-19-04, 02:40 PM	As the DM, you have ultimate flexibility in adjusting the encounters, XP and treasure to compensate for how powerful a party is. You don't have to go strictly by the book if you do not want to. I regularly adjust my games in accordance with the PC's skills, abilities and equipment. Have your players already played a few sessions already? Has the PC been having difficulty already? If they are handling encounters well enough then everything should be OK. If they are on the losing end of encounters and not due to stupidity, then perhaps you should make an adjustment. If you guys haven't played yet, I would suggest that you play a bit in order to assess how well they are doing. As long as no one is trying to throw the game to prove that they are underpowered, you can assess the power level of the party with relation to the encounters. The GP and level table in the DMG is just a guideline on the average amount of equipment a PC should have at a certain level. You are not required to strictly adhere to it. What happens if the PC's have more than the average? Should you take some away? I'm sure no PC would not equipment taken away from him just because they have above average wealth. Therefore, no PC should demand more if they have below average wealth. If you feel that the equipment that the party has is adequate for the adventure, let the players know that. You know the adventure and the abilities of the characters, so you should be able to assess whether or not the adventure is appropriate for them. If you feel it is appropriate, let your players know. Tell them that based on what you know about the adventure and the party, that you feel that the amount of equipment they have should be appropriate. You can make up a good reason for the lack of equipment. Players will have to do with less some time. It is up to your players to rise up to the challenge. If the players are able to succeed, it will make the success just that much more sweeter.
varder_kiften 05-19-04, 03:35 PM	Poor you. Your group is quite pathetic. I'm DMing a campain that started at first level and now they're at levle 5. The players are lucky to have 1000 gp in items right now but they just enjoy the experience. It's petty to want to be strong beyond what you are. If your group continues to pester you don't put up with it because the cardinal rule in d&D is "DM rules".
Autosponge 05-19-04, 05:17 PM	Option 1: Don't give them squat other than your "two-week notice". Inform them that it's come to your attention that most if not all of the players are unhappy with the game and you don't want to waste their time or yours. Tell them you're going to seek out another group and wish them luck. If they beg you to stay, tell them there is one condition--no more baby whining about you don't have enough equipment. If they look wounded and say stuff like, "Who us? No we'd never..." it's time to leave. Otherwise, enjoy your new and hopefully more respectful group. Option 2: Give them what they want. However, send them back to 4th level, strip them to nothing and allow them to re-equip. Start the campaign over with a different module. If they want something you took away or want to be higher level tell them, "make up your minds."
Remnant 05-19-04, 07:59 PM	Originally posted by astute1 I had a player who constantly griped about how much treasure he had compared to other party members, and to the chart in the back of the DMG. He used to constantly tally up how much in treasure each player had (he wasn't even last on the list!), and how that compared to the book. He also used to gripe about how he had "too much cash, and nothing to do with it" because, "The DM never put item crafters in the world for them." Eventually, he did something stupid (teleported into the king's private chamber, trying to convince the king to make him the 'hand of the throne' :rolleyes:" The guards couldn't hurt him, but eventually tricked him into putting on manacles of temporal stasis - they then took his gold and items. The party got him freed, but had to buy back his equipment to recompense for his crime. After that he left the party, saying he was unfairly punished. He then suggested that I use a new set of rules for handing out treasure - a player levels up, they get to totally re-pick their treasure from the book using the treasure tables. Yeah. Tell me you made that up for entertainment purposes. :eek: Was it a monk? I only ask because for some reason, many of my problem players seem to gravitate toward monk, and then get frustrated when I don't drop piles of nunchucks of disruption and vorporal kamas in their lap.
Autosponge 05-19-04, 08:06 PM	I'd let him repick his equipment every session as long as I get to kill him off at the end of every session. Seems fair to me anyway.
Sphyre 05-19-04, 09:30 PM	My 2 parts of currency: This comes in three parts so hear me out. As a player in a world where magic is used by every NPC 4 fold over the PCs, or properly known as "I can use magic and magic items and you can't nor will I ever give you any gold." coupled by CRs that are rediculous compared to our party effectiveness, I would say it is extremely fustrating to be low on treasure. We, as a party level 14, were sent up against a balor, and the best item I had? A +1 for both ends of my double weapon, gyrspike. Many players quit that campaign because the DM had no sense of balance between the party's ability and the player's ability. As a player in a world that we were told it was low magic campaign and all magic items cost double and it wasnt likely we'd get much treasure we were able to prepare for that. Also to compensate the DM has done 2 other things. The first is scaling the monsters down. He doesnt send us up against massive CR enemies. We may be level 5 now, but we tend to be taking on CR 4 things because CR 5 is assuming you'd have the gear of an average level 5 party. The other is he's given us all our own little 'secret.' We all have some advantage somewhere. The barbarian we've found out is actually a leader of a barbarian tribe and thus probably inhereted some magic item. Another is a "halfling elf person" which was later revealed as an ancient sprite of some sort. He had a +8 Racial bonus to dex assuming he put an 18 into dex at the beginning. Another person, AC, and damage tends to fluctuate from time to time. And theres another that we're seeing doing some pretty high damage with a bow for a low magic campaign. And when I DM I tend to run a high magic campaign because I play the monsters very effectively. Without money they wouldn't survive. The thing is high stats might be nice, but you can buy items to improve stats with money... but you can't buy magic items with high stats. At least give a warning to your PCs before they enter the game that you run a high stat low treasure game, or something along those lines. The players, if left underpowered, may end up leaving your game. If you send them up against enemies you might need to go a little under CR to keep things somewhat balanced. The thing is when you introduce something different, to make the game balanced and still enjoyable for an average group (some groups, if they work well together' may like the challenge) is upto you to do now. Just make sure you talk with the players so that they know you've balanced it out so that they don't feel like they are getting the short end of the stick.
Mythmere 05-19-04, 10:14 PM	My suggestion, which is intended to keep the peace, avoid handing out money retroactively, and firmly state your position of authority: "You guys are such experienced players that I made the decision not to give you as much gold as the book guidelines suggested. You're getting pummeled, but you're supposed to in this adventure. Also, I think you aren't playing up to your full potential yet. I'm not going to hand out extra money retroactively, and I don't think I made the wrong decision. I meant this to be a challenge for an experienced party, not a cakewalk." This one compliments their skills as players. What are they going to say, "No, we suck."? I doubt it, and they'll be kidding if they do. This one should defuse the situation.
GSHamster 05-20-04, 01:34 AM	Question for you: Did you intentionally give them less than the book value, or did you not know about the book value? Personally, I think you made a mistake in not giving them the full amount of gold at the start. I do that, but restrict my PCs so that they can only spend up to half on a single item. Assuming that you gave them less gold accidentally, I'd deal with this out of character. Just tell the players that you made a mistake, here's the 3500 gold, get some new equipment, and continue on with the game (realistically, it won't make that much difference). If you intentionally gave them less gold, just state that you did that on purpose. Don't reconsider unless it is clear that the party is underpowered.
Miles 05-20-04, 01:55 AM	So, your players are thinking that you short-changed them 2400 gp in the beginning. Now that they are higher level, what would that amount of gold do for them, really? If would save your game to give them this amount of gold, then I say, go for it. It wouldn't unbalance them, and it should keep the troopers happy. As for in game reasons, I'd just say they recieved a package from home, an inheretance or some such. That way, they know they are getting what they think they are missing. And everyone should be happy. Miles.
Naeron 05-20-04, 07:09 AM	It all depends on whether they are getting their backsides handed to them in the campaign. Most published modules generally try to adhere to the wealth guidelines because it allows a generic adventure to predict roughly the capabilities of the party. The CR's of most mid-high level monsters are based on the characters having equipment appropriate to their level. If a 6th level PC has the wealth of a 4th level PC then they are probably equal to a 5th level PC. You have to see how things pan out, high stats can overcome some equipment deficiences but not all of them. All in all if your PC's are facing encounters that scaled for 6 6th level PC's and they have 4th level PC wealth then yes the probably will be having a very hard time and have some grounds for complaint. D&D is a group game and both the players and the DM are supposed to be having fun. I would recommend that you slightly increase the found treasure for a while until the party is less than 1 level behind the recommended value or downgrade the encounters slightly. If the are walking through the encounters they have no grounds for complaint but be aware that the later encounters can be very difficult without sufficent equipment.
Phre_Marz 05-20-04, 11:49 AM	There are a number of "valuable" magic items with little use for most parties (ring of free action 40K?). Perhaps dropping one of these on the player would cure his DMG accounting. Just choose something they are unlikely to get much use from (Ring of Wizardry 5th) but won't be able to find anyone willing to buy it for near what its worth. On another note, starting weath is different from just giving them a fixed amount of cash and letting them buy what they want. Generally, characters in my campaigns get 50% of the starting wealth to spend as desired and a bonus (up to 20%) for their backstory. This produces some 'optimized' buys but keeps the power level about right.
albone 05-21-04, 10:05 AM	Everyone here has some really great suggestions, whether its for or against extra swag. I'm inclined to agree with Mythmere. I have DM'd these guys for over a decade so I have the luxury of reading them a little. I think the two troublemakers (said with affection) were blowing smoke and trying to see what they could get, with a little whining thrown in. Giving the PC's 2,000 gp at 4th level was a precident set by one of the guys that was nagging. Yes, that's right. One of the guys who was fussing about all of this, was the one that introduced 2,000gp for 4th level characters in the first place in a previous campaign when he DM'd. Naturally, I thought by using this precident again would be okay. Interesting, isn't it? To give a bit more detail, these 5 6th level guys (they are NOW 6th level) have been fighting CR 8's. RttoEE plays the further you go, the harder it gets. In this way, you get to level up proportionately to the CR's. However, they used a secret passage to bypass a lot of that and are fighing much harder monsters, then if they would have if they went through the front door. The PC's are aware of this, which brought the current situation to a head. I mentioned that the PC's were doing good for having 6 5th level guys fighting CR 8's. Then they said, "Yeah, but we're not really 5th level because you didn't give us as much gold to start with." I reminded them that CR's are based on 4 party members and they had 6 in their party. Then the whining. I warn them weekly that the challenges are getting harder and harder, since they are so deep in the Crater Ridge Mines, at a lower level than was intended. They seem to like the challenge, or at least they did. I even throw out little "hints of intuition" to PC's, like "the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end, warning you that you REALLY don't want to go that way." I don't do it to goad them but to give them fair warning. The PC's miss a lot of treasure, both gold and magic, which I don't feel obligated to tell them, if they don't check for it. I've found that RttoEE hands out rewards very handsomely. So I think I'll stick with the current routine. Maybe be a little more "helpful" with them identifing treasure? What do you think of that?