Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheGreatSanguini 11-04-07, 08:48 AM	I really didn't want to have to come to someone else for help. I really figured it'd just be okay if I followed the rules, kept trying to teach, and sent them on easy quests. My campaign has become a clusterf*ck of the good, the bad, and the ugly. The ugly, also simultaneously being the bad. When I started, nearly four months ago, I had a plot. In fact, I had a whole dynamic world that I'd worked on for two years prior. I had several BBEGs, quest routes and continents, more than one hundred fully detailed maps for material AND other planes. I had everything planned out, all I needed were some decent players. ....And there was the kink in my plan. One of my players is an incompetent boob. He has performed the following actions since becoming a part of my campaign, over the course of many characters: 1) Knocked a town guard unconcious. Tied him up, and tried to sell him as a slave to another town guard. 2) Rented a mule and cart for transport of loot (which he expected to get from a goblin encampment). He then set the mule on fire, during his escape so it would be "more motivated". 3) Forced his horse to run into a natural stone cave, at full gallop, into complete darkness and monsters and traps that he KNEW were there. 4) After his horse broke two of its three remaining legs.... He tied it down to the ground, so nobody would steal it. 5) He got beaten up by a monkey, because he used enlarge person, with a longspear. Naturally, the monkey was well within his minimum reach, so he didn't attack it for a single turn until he died. He didn't bother grappling, dropping the spear, or anything. 6) He tied his longspear to his back, and tried climbing over an (already exposed) pit trap that had weasels in the bottom. He was in full plate, with a strength of 14 and no ranks into climb. The walls were hewn stone. He is NOT the spider-cleric. 7) He spotted a gelatinous cube, but since the rest of his party didn't yet, he screamed "I'LL SHOW YOU!" and jumped into it. 8) The rest of his party sneaks up behind a door with the boss behind it. They're getting ready to spring their attack. He knocks on the door and yells "Hello! Do you have any weapons right now!?" These are mild examples of the stupidity he has unleashed. I want to note, right now - I've taught him the rules. In fact, I continue re-teaching him the rules every session. He doens't do this to be funny. He does this because he's just too incompetent to do anything else. I have one player, who lacks confidence and gives up as soon as anything turns sour. He has commited hara-kiri with a few characters already, and other times he just leaves the table to go whine and play Sonic the Hedgehog. He doens't look for obvious solutions to his problems, he just realizes that he has a problem, then sulks. I have one player, who is just plain silly. He does many of the things that player #1 does, but intentionally. I have many more related player problems, but those three just about sum them up. All of my players are 16-19 years old. Because of their nincompoopery, I had to change the campaign drastically. I overhauled everything into "Tutorial mode" about three months ago. I put them in an Adventuring Guild, led by a powerful cleric who could make everything all right again. Problem is, even with Tutorial mode in full effect, they aren't learning. I hand pick missions for them that are ridiculously easy for their level, but they always find a way to fail it. Then, after 2 1/2 wasted hours on an incompleted mission, I just put them in a Roman Colliseum style arena, where they fight random monsters of a CR that I let them choose, or do some PvP. That arena has gotten a lot of use. I hoped it would teach them more about combat, but they don't tend to learn anything very well... Now that you know the situation - The party (currently, since as previously mentioned characters change with disturbing celerity) consists of: -Level 4 Necropolotan Halfling Warlock -Level 2 Elf Rogue -Level 1 Wild Elf Barbarian -Level 1 Dwarf Dragon Shaman -Level 1 Xeph Soulknife -Level 1 Halfling Sorceror The Warlock? Yeah, he's average. After everything that I've put the party through, only he has been truly successful and competent. So successful, that he's average. This makes him seem overpowered compared to the rest of the party. Problem is, he's a great player. Really astounding. In fact, he's such a good player that he constantly tries to help the party out. He constantly tries to save other people's characters, tries to give them the information they need. He's serving as the walking bandaid with a multitude of cure light wounds scrolls that he's paying for with his own money (and which are no good to him, clearly). I really don't want to bring him down levels, because he's earned everything he has, and more. I really don't want to bring the rest of the party up levels, because they don't deserve a damn thing. I'm spoon feeding them already, and yet they still can't keep it in their mouths. What can I do to try and fix this broken campaign? What can I do to help these hopeless tools? As a final note - I can't just kick them out of the campaign. I know that you guys would suggest that, but as is always the case with these types of complaints, there aren't any other gamers in my area. Thanks in advance, -Sanguini
Prator_The_Golden 11-04-07, 09:03 AM	Is it possible to just leave, taking the one good player with you, and find a better group? Failing that, have you ever tried sitting down with the other players and telling them, point blank, how you feel? "You are incompetent morons. The reason why you're all still at low levels after all this time is because you seem incapable of doing ANYTHING right. Maybe it's because you're actually dumb, or deliberately disruptive, or because you're just not trying hard enough, I don't really care. The point is, I want it to stop. Now. I have no qualms with killing all of your characters and finding some better players elsewhere if this crap continues." If you have done neither of these things, it's probably time to try one or the other. How long has this been going on?
Artector 11-04-07, 09:21 AM	Prator has it right. Talk to them directly. If they won't listen it would be time to abandon the group (if you actually could). Find out what's up, do they just not care? Or are they truly not getting it? Find that out by asking them. If they don't want to play you can't make them (which sounds true of 1 or 2 of them).
wordserpent 11-04-07, 10:28 AM	I have been excatly where you are, having to deal with idiot players for many of my games. You have one good player, what you need to do is consier running a single player game and just not invite the idiots around anymore. You could even run two campaigns one with the knuckleheads and one with the good player. You might also consider running one-shot adventures with that group. This way you can design some kick-*** adventures and not have any emotional attachment when the party gets themselves killed. Have the group generate new characters for each adventure (most of them would have to do that anyway, judging by what you are telling us). If you want to expidite character generation make them use the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). Make it sort of like a tournament where the players who perorm well can get bonuses for their next adventure, say a magic item or some extra cash to buy equipment. This way that good player of yours will have some sort of reward and you won't feel bad about giving the players the pasting that they deserve. Hope this is useful.
Charlym_Zuardan 11-04-07, 11:11 AM	i'd have to agree with some of the comments above... find out why they dont want to play the game, and drop them. take the one good player and have a 1 on 1 game with him until you can find some new good players. playing with just 1 player can be a lot of fun too, and its certainly better than playing with idiots.
Thunder Dragonbane 11-04-07, 11:25 AM	I have a simalar problem with my friday group. I am trying to teach my cousins how to play, one of them gets it the other doesn't. They also brought in a few of their friends who wanted to play. One of which quit after the first session when all we got done was character creation, in 5 hours. The one that doesn't get it is currently playing a dwarven claric, that refuses to heal the party unless combat is over. Not because he is in the fight, but because his "pressious self" might get hit. mind you I generally bring both ranged and melee foes to the combats and he still hides behind the rest of the group. This is the same player that when I first started the game left all of his armor and weapons outside of the private inn room that he hired to have them washed, when I said that the inn had a laundry service. Another player in the group is currently playing a bard even after explaining how borring it would be to simply stand in the back and do nothing. Nothing is exactly what I get out of him, he will not even draw his weapons if I attack him. He hits -1 or worse in every combat because of not reacting to the dangers arround him. The one cousin that is getting it is playing a centaur barbarian and is a few levels behind the others due to the level adjustment, they expect him to do everything for them. Carry all of the loot, them, fight, PARTY LEADER(?), yes they have a barb for the party leader when there is a bard in the party. I started out with a NPC paladin with this group, mostly so that I could help with the healing problem. Now I am running two, and doing all of the in combat healing. I am about ready to kill the cleric and the bard make them roll up a new character. But that would really screw up the game even more than it allready is. To the OP I feel your pain I really do. I am thinking about asking my saturday group if they want a new player for our game and taking the one good player with me when I tell the others off.
Sinis 11-04-07, 11:32 AM	I really didn't want to have to come to someone else for help. I really figured it'd just be okay if I followed the rules, kept trying to teach, and sent them on easy quests. My campaign has become a clusterf*ck of the good, the bad, and the ugly. The ugly, also simultaneously being the bad. When I started, nearly four months ago, I had a plot. In fact, I had a whole dynamic world that I'd worked on for two years prior. I had several BBEGs, quest routes and continents, more than one hundred fully detailed maps for material AND other planes. I had everything planned out, all I needed were some decent players. ....And there was the kink in my plan. One of my players is an incompetent boob. He has performed the following actions since becoming a part of my campaign, over the course of many characters: 1) Knocked a town guard unconcious. Tied him up, and tried to sell him as a slave to another town guard. 2) Rented a mule and cart for transport of loot (which he expected to get from a goblin encampment). He then set the mule on fire, during his escape so it would be "more motivated". I sorta stopped reading at the bolded part. Basically, your player has one or more of the following defects: 1) They don't really have any concept on how any world, real or fantasy, works. 2) They're psychopathic. 3) They want to play a different sort of game. The third is probably the most likely.
Lokathor 11-04-07, 11:40 AM	Have the warlock buy a Healing Belt. It's in the Magic Item Compentium. It lets you gain some healing power and it recharges itself every day. He'll save tons of money in the long run, and he might be able to get some other magic items for the other players that he just picks up and passes on to the next guy each time someone dies.
Thanuir 11-04-07, 11:44 AM	The players, or two of them, enjoy the chaos, mayhem, and sheer random hilarity of it all. Go play Toon and have fun. You can't "fix" the players; you can try to talk to them or stop roleplaying with them, however. No gaming is better than bad gaming.
Lord-Dragon 11-04-07, 12:40 PM	I have run into this same situation many times. They way to deal with it ultimately is based on You. If you want to game, then game. If you want to game D&D then find people that also want to game D&D. In other words, find out WHAT they want to play, there's a meca of RPG's out there. Find one that fits what they're looking for and play it. Then if they do good in that game, see if they want to come back to D&D. I have often found it easier to teach people to play D&D by teaching them to Role-Play with something else first.
Vathelokai 11-04-07, 01:36 PM	Here's my analysis: Lets start with the GM (*gasp*)... You started with a massive endevor, a fleshed out world, BBEGs and Maps. You were all set, and the players are showing no interest in that. Keep in mind that the GM is frustrated with that. That's one issue to address. The second issue is what makes a good player. This quote is quite telling...Problem is, he's a great player. Really astounding. In fact, he's such a good player that he constantly tries to help the party out. He constantly tries to save other people's characters, tries to give them the information they need.The GM wants good players and this is a rough definition, so what to do when the players do not cooperate, don't share, don't proceed toward the same goal, and don't pay attention to the information they are given? Now the players... -In general: Keep in mind your age group. In my experience, younger gamers are all about trying things that they could never hope to experience or get away with in real life. Also, they tend to not have the life experience needed to realize that the characters would be a lot more serious about things. Basicly, they are playing characters that are immature teenagers with low sense of responsibility and consequences. Knowing that it's a game, and that the 'consequences' are making another character, amplifies that. More specifically... -the incompetent: It seems that this guy has two problems, he isn't interested in playing the same game the GM wants to play, and he is pulling random scenes from bad moves to come up with his actions. Think about it; Pirates of the Caribbean, in the sword fight in the blacksmith shop, the mule is burned with a hot poker to get it to start moving; Gandolf and the Riders of Rohan charge over a hill into ten thousand orcs, and win the day through sheer heroics; when Willy Coyote is set on fire, he runs twice as fast. This of course, doesn't explain all of his insanity, but it's something. -the silly: Also wanting to play a different game, but being aware that he is playing your game; I find this type of player harder to deal with. -the quitter: This one could be a lot of things. Since, when he gives up, he wanders away to play video games, it may be that he really is only playing for his friends anyway. -the good gamer: Consider yourself lucky that you found someone that wants to play the same game as you! However, you might want to reign him in a bit; it might not be a bad idea to encourage him to be a little more selfish. Carrying around a wand of cure light to help people wake back up is one thing, but blowing all your money on characters you don't know well... that's sliding toward holy monk or paladin. -the other two: Since you didn't detail them, I'll guess that they are going to go along with the majority. They play silly when the games silly, and play plot when the game has plot. Suggestions... You definitely need a round table discussion with these guys on what game you want to play. I would be way nicer with them than suggested above. Some topics... 1) You're frustrated that they are not 'getting into' the setting and plot you have created. Give them a rough outline of the plot, no details, and see if the story is interesting to them. The may simply be unaware that the 3 plot hooks you just threw out led to something bigger. Perhaps they are too used to being guided by video games where you kill things and the plot is presented in cut scenes. You may need to be more heavy handed. Slavers come through and kidnap the characters, taking them to the next city in the plot progression; the BBEG waltzes into town, takes things over, and offers the characters jobs; character has reoccurring dreams that he is doing (or has to do) something; an arch angel (archon or whatever) shows up and says point blank that they need to do X. A stranger option, just proceed with the plot without them. The players will be following the plot, but each character knows next to nothing about what's really going on. After 3-4 characters, I bet one of them will make a character that knows something, and maybe has a background connect to the plot the player has learned so far. 2) What's a good player? Everyone has their own take on this, and unfortunately, your players have a radically different vision than you. Just tell them that you are getting kind of board with all the slapstick, and you'd like to see a little drama. Point out a couple plot hooks or hints you have put out and ask if they even noticed. Or (this applies to 1 above) just ask them what they know about the world so far; if they know all the hooks and don't care, that is a very different problem than having players that don't get the hooks in the first place. 3) The incompetent player: Unless you want to ditch this guy, figure out what makes his mind work. Look over his book and movie collection, ask him what his favorite scenes were. Even ask him to play the roll of one of his favorite characters from somewhere else. Another option, make him a cleric of luck and madness and give him a phylactery of faithfulness for free. This gives you in game right to tell him when he is being a :censored:. Make his character neigh immortal but don't let him know it. Have random things happen to him when he should die, things the player doesn't like, but are not deadly. Basicly force him to keep the same character for a while. 4) The silly player: Even if you get the incompetent player on the right path, this guy will take his place as the class clown. As I mentioned, I've never had luck handling this type of player. 5) The quitter: Figure out if this guy really want's to play. If he'd rather play video games, the encourage that. He'll be listening in on the game and not playing, and you might be able to get a confidant out of it, someone who knows enough about the game to bounce ideas off of between sessions. If he is really just frustrated and doesn't get things, then you need to be more up front about solutions to problems. There are in game devices for this; bardic knowledge, phylac. of faithful, intelligent magic items, npcs; heck, when the police show up to arrest the PCs, they could just decide that the quitter was a nice guy that got caught up in things and let him go. Perhaps the ogress thinks he's a cutie and doesn't thow him in the dungeon immediately. Hope, self-esteem boosts, and hints usually fix this type of player (in my experience). 6) The good player: Figure out if this guy is as irritated as you. Maybe you two do need to find another game group. Maybe this player is amused by the group dynamic. Maybe he could ask a player to be more serious on his own, so it doesn't seem like you're going control freak or something. Having this player 'team up' with one of the other guys to create a force for RP could encourage the group to move in that direction. Brain is numb... must stop typing now.... Hope it was helpful.
Dre2Dee2 11-04-07, 03:34 PM	Have you tried looking for a 'play by post' D&D game? It could be a good alternative if you can't find any more players in person to run a game with. The good thing with play by post is that if you do DM, you can ask players to submit a character sheet and a small story before you accept them. That way it should be a little easier in finding players that'll like the game you'll wanna run. :) Browse around for a D&D game forum, there are a ton of them. It definitely sounds like the warlock player is the only one worth staying with. Everyone else sounds like a nightmare. :eek:
Atuin 11-04-07, 04:12 PM	I have run into this same situation many times. They way to deal with it ultimately is based on You. If you want to game, then game. If you want to game D&D then find people that also want to game D&D. In other words, find out WHAT they want to play, there's a meca of RPG's out there. Find one that fits what they're looking for and play it. Then if they do good in that game, see if they want to come back to D&D. I have often found it easier to teach people to play D&D by teaching them to Role-Play with something else first. I hate to do this, but it's do WELL. And that guy above who spelled "cleric" with an 'a'? Wrong. I am sorry but I have problems with bad grammar of any kind.
wizarddog 11-04-07, 04:19 PM	All of my players are 16-19 years old. Nuff said. ;)
Fly666monkey 11-04-07, 04:37 PM	*Sigh* My first thought would be to try and get through to them that they need to stop being :censored:s at the table. When they do something stupid, make them pay dearly. If that doesn't work, keep your good player and make the rest leave. Try and find other people to play with, you'd be suprised to find that there ARE mature people in the 16-19 age group (I hapen to be 16 myself). If you truly can't find anyone else in the area, then you should switch to an online VTT. That way, location won't be a problem.
soulnova 11-04-07, 04:39 PM	If you have problems finding players for your games, then you should try OpenRPG. I Virtual Tabletop with dices and tools to play online. And ITS FREE! http://www.openrpg.com/ You know... I had a Sorcerer who started to set on fire almost everything. The party had to flee 2 cities with a bounty on their heads. So... I gave him a cursed hat... This hat was an intelligent item that gave him Cat Grace and Darkvision 2 times/day. He love it and saved his sorry butt several times (because he loves to get in front of the battle...go figure). The downside... for him... is that everytime he did something Chaotic Stupid, the hat would send a shock into his brain ... instant K.O. No save. He just dropped and the rest of the party (who had common sense) had to decide if it was safe to wake him up. One of the players was a former DM of me...and the first time the sorcerer tried to steal from a Guard (because he looked at him funny) and fell to the ground, the other DM looked at me with a great smile praising the solution. He was mad and angry at the start but that made him understand his actions. Now I dont have to do it anymore and he enjoys talking with the Hat. xD
Untamed_Soul 11-04-07, 06:12 PM	There is alot of good advice here already, but I thought I'd throw in my two coppers worth. I see alot of people/DMs complaining about their group, their players, or the direction the plot has taken. I have DMed on both online and at the table, and I can say I have had my shares of headaches too. However, there is one very important thing I have learned with my past mistakes. I call them my mistakes because as a DM, it is our job to ensure the game remains fun. I give you kudos on the campaign you have put together, it sounds like you have put alot of work into it and the material you have drawn up must really be something. I am alot like that, I tend to over detail things. I do it mostly for myself as I know my players will never ever figure out the entire plotline. However, it's a sickness of mine when I'm creating an adventure. I first come up with a basic scenario, then I put a detail to the encounter. Then I start asking myself why are the NPCs here, what are their goals... why are they in this area of the world, why is this area of the world so important to start the Campaign in... what is the history of this world... Then before I know it, I have an entire campaign chosen. However, as I have found, players don't always go according to plan and most of the time, they go totally in a direction you have never seen. Going back to the most important thing that I learned isn't not to detail out your Campaign, it is to have fun. You can't have fun if your stressed out that your Players did something stupid. I get upset only when my players make the game unenjoyable for themselves, or for the others. I punish the characters in the game, but I don't punish my players. Now my games are not a fantasy world where the PCs do anything they want, but I try not to encourage them to be anything they are not as roleplayers. My games are not also games where we don't roleplay or have a serious discussion within the game. However, the most important thing to me, and my players when we sit down is that this is a game, and it is to be enjoyed. I can't enjoy a game if my goals for the Campaign are for my players to be Heroes, as we all know playing the flawless hero is not always fun. My advice is not to boot anyone from the game, or to have a heart to heart with your players. Instead, I'd houserule out the "if you die you get to make another player character". I'm not against letting players reroll characters up or come back to life from death, but it's usually more difficult than just writing new information on a new character sheet. Involve in game mechanics such as the druid spell ressurrection for bringing characters back to life. After the PCs come back as a squirrel, they may watch what they do in their future adventures. Involve an evil cleric who uses a Geas spell upon ressurecting the PC. "I raised you from death... now I have your soul" comes to mind. These tactics allow you as a DM in game ways to not control your players, but to influence them in the direction you would like them to go. Hope some of this works, and hopefully your game can be enjoyed by everyone, including yourself. Best of luck.
Dei 11-04-07, 06:39 PM	:twitch: Um... wow... how to save that campaign? Er... let me put it this way sometimes you just gotta put a sick dog down. Honestly it doesn't sound like it's even worth trying to save it with the group you've already got. My advice to you: drop the campaign, take the player who plays the warlock, (optional) shoot the others as a favour to all mankind (/optional) and find some other players that aren't complete and utter subhumans.
Sezarious 11-04-07, 07:01 PM	You poor thing... If i could, i'd be one of your players. I live in Australia if that helps.
echelon_house 11-04-07, 07:20 PM	I understand what you're talking about. My playgroup is very similiar, but for us it's not a problem at all - in fact, it's a boon! Our missions inevitably end with something catching on fire and creating a raging inferno, or accidentally freeing the soul-eating demons, or just generally failing completely and watching as hundreds of civilians are horribly murdered because of our incompetence. We have to stop every five minutes because all of us are laughing so hard! It's the most fun I've ever had. I think the issue here might just be that your playing style is too different from your friends. It sounds like you want a more serious, "classic adventure," and they just want to screw around. I'd suggest creating a campaign based around comedy, and see if you have more success.
Dragonturtle 11-04-07, 08:24 PM	I just feel the need to point out here that not all 16-19 year olds are prone to being complete idiots. I DM a group comprised entirely of sixteen year olds, and they play reasonably and enjoy themselves. That said, if your players only enjoy doing things that involve chaos, maybe it's time to spice things up a bit. Next time your players try to set a mule on fire, have it explode and pitch them headfirst into the middle of the fray. Or if he runs full tilt into a cave full of traps and monsters, have it just be an illusion and he runs into a blank wall. Then have the "real" dungeon appear somewhere else nearby. You can do this with just about anything. One of my players once wanted to make a flail out of a dead rat. The next thing they came up against were a particularly nasty group of wererat necromancers (invented specifically for the circumstance). The rat came to life again and attacked him while he was wearing the flail on his belt. Hilarity ensued. I think it might have been a be there moment. Make the players feel like they are having their fun too. At the same time, try to make it clear to them that they will enjoy themselves more if they play a game that has some of both elements to it. Some plot and some silliness is the ideal combination IMO because it keeps everyone engaged and having fun. Just for fun, I'll tell you about my group. My party currently consists of a pair of werecreatures of opposite alignments, a cleric of healing who is turning evil, an uncontrolled psionic and a magic user who was polymorphed into a kobold and is stuck like that. Add in a CN fighter who tends towards stupid evil, a third level druid (the average level is 4-5) who is obsessed with the spell call lightning, a fighter/thief who could kill any two other members of the party because of his absurdly high stat rolls, the level one fighter/thief to whom he is acting as a mentor, and a perfectly normal fighter/magic user who is the brains of the party. Note that this is a first edition party, and so it's not going to fit what you know perfectly. For example, the spell call lightning takes a very long time to cast (about ten times the length of a normal combat). At one point they were working with a pair of NPCs: a cleric who was secretly evil, and an extremely antisocial elf who insisted on doing everything at 3am. The elf dreamed of opening a weavers shop in his homeland (he would regularly present members of the party with clothes he had made himself and get offended if they wouldn't wear them). Ok, I'll admit it, the exploding mule was just lame.
Axiomatic_vampire 11-04-07, 09:20 PM	How is playing with that first guy not fun?
Third_Level_Bomb 11-04-07, 09:46 PM	How is playing with that first guy not fun? I agree. I would think playing with silly gamers who liked to make you laugh would be a desirable thing. Then again, I'm probably a good deal more casual a gamer than the OP...
Dravda 11-04-07, 11:02 PM	Ok, at #1 he should have been in prison for life. But that's beside the point. You know what I did when faced with a similar problem? I didn't find new gamers. I MADE them. Yep. Level 1 campaign, nice and easy, "orcs kidnapped the princess, slay the dragon" kind of campaign. I invited two good friends over who had never played before, taught them how, and they had a blast. One of them was a fighter, and enjoyed carving mustaches into fallen enemies' faces, and the other was a ranger who killed a ghoul, skinned it, and made a purple tri-corner hat out of it. The in-game action was serious, but they had a ton of fun between combats and we all had a blast. Now they are part of my full-time gaming group. So get a couple friends together, explain to them that DnD is not the ultimate expression of nerd-dom, and have fun. -Count Dravda
SevTT 11-05-07, 12:28 AM	In fact, I continue re-teaching him the rules every session. He doens't do this to be funny. He does this because he's just too incompetent to do anything else. No, I'm quite sure he does this because he thinks it's funny. When he says that his character is doing something utterly retarded, just ignore him and ask another player something. Or say what his character does instead. He'll eventually come around and stop being a douche or he'll get ****** and leave -- either way, problem solved. I have one player, who lacks confidence and gives up as soon as anything turns sour. He has commited hara-kiri with a few characters already, and other times he just leaves the table to go whine and play Sonic the Hedgehog. He doens't look for obvious solutions to his problems, he just realizes that he has a problem, then sulks. There're a few ways that you could help build his self-esteem. If it really doesn't help, because he just doesn't know what o do or what'd be an option, give him hints. And if he deliberately suicides, keep him from coming back in for a few sessions. Or just get rid of him, since it seems he'd rather be playing videogames. In fact, he's such a good player that he constantly tries to help the party out. He constantly tries to save other people's characters, tries to give them the information they need. He's serving as the walking bandaid with a multitude of cure light wounds scrolls that he's paying for with his own money (and which are no good to him, clearly). Well, you've got a 4th level leading a bunch of 1sts, and he's going to outshine them at -everything- he does. And he'll pretty much always be better. I'd say that you need to have a sit-down with your players. You need to find out why the others aren't engaged. Why does the stupid one act stupid, why does the silly one act silly, and why's the useless little whiner even playing? You might wind up going so far as changing the tenor of your campaign. At least two players would probably be happier with something more slapstick; the others might want this too. Dunno. The only other option is to cultivate new players.
LFK 11-05-07, 01:35 AM	You may just need to get the wiggles out. Since you don't have the luxury of kicking players willy nilly, maybe switch over to something like Dragonball Z or another game that thrives off contrived silliness. Make it week after week little more than "you fight some bad guy." The combat is simple, everyone is overpowered, and you're rewarded for being an juvenile. It's really, really fun for the first couple of sessions, but after a month even the most chaotic stupid player starts to want something more solid. OR Invite someone else in the group to DM for a while. It may only last a week or two, but it might give them a bit of a reason to settle down a bit, either when it's their story on the line, or when the whole group goes "what the hell?" after the king lights them on fire. Basically everyone starts off at least somewhat chaotic stupid, or at the least goes through a phase of being chaotic stupid. How long varies from person to person, and some people look like they'll never grow out of it. Most do grow out of it, though, so there is hope, even for the guy who lit a mule on fire. Oh: have they read the PHB or did you just explain the rules to them as they came up?
Sezarious 11-05-07, 09:14 AM	Yes but the OP needs to be satisfied too. He's clearly put good effort in and doesn't want it to go to waste.
LFK 11-05-07, 09:29 AM	Yes but the OP needs to be satisfied too. He's clearly put good effort in and doesn't want it to go to waste. Then shelve that effort and pull it out again later. Even though they've been through some of the storyline it sounds like there's no way they'll really remember it. Pearls before swine and all that.
Phrennzy 11-05-07, 11:03 AM	Then shelve that effort and pull it out again later. Even though they've been through some of the storyline it sounds like there's no way they'll really remember it. Pearls before swine and all that. Exactly. Stop using your current work. Put it away until you can game with good players. Why bother reading Shakespeare to monkeys?
darkdrgon2136 11-05-07, 11:54 AM	Why bother reading Shakespeare to monkeys? because you would gt an interesting story out of it.
Dei 11-05-07, 12:24 PM	Exactly. Stop using your current work. Put it away until you can game with good players. Why bother reading Shakespeare to monkeys? I agree that it is a waste trying to use his current storyline with these guys but why should he not change audiences rather than material? If you decide not to cast pearls before swine you do not throw out the pearls and go get a slop bucket, you go find someone who deserves the pearls and leave the pigs in the mud.
LFK 11-05-07, 02:13 PM	I agree that it is a waste trying to use his current storyline with these guys but why should he not change audiences rather than material? If you decide not to cast pearls before swine you do not throw out the pearls and go get a slop bucket, you go find someone who deserves the pearls and leave the pigs in the mud. From the first post he makes it sound like he's got some pearls and some pigs, and the pigs are here to stay. With that in mind I'd put the pearls back in the top drawer and save them for later, after the majority of the pigs grow up. People shelve good ideas all the time for later use.
Phrennzy 11-05-07, 04:13 PM	I agree that it is a waste trying to use his current storyline with these guys but why should he not change audiences rather than material? If you decide not to cast pearls before swine you do not throw out the pearls and go get a slop bucket, you go find someone who deserves the pearls and leave the pigs in the mud. It depends on how easy it is to replace the pigs.
Third_Level_Bomb 11-05-07, 04:23 PM	because you would gt an interesting story out of it. The OP clearly doesn't want an interesting story, he wants his story. My advice is write a novel, your players want to have fun, and your idea of gaming is way to serious for them.:rolleyes:
Demarest 11-06-07, 02:06 PM	Honestly, I really feel bad for you. I put a lot into my homebrew world, detail maps and create storylines with NPCs to match, etc.. And I've been working on my world for about a year, here and there when I get the time. So I can appreciate your problem with your group. But what for a solution? So finding new players is not an option. Well, you're right, that does limit what most people would recommend, and have recommended, regardless of your statement at the end of your original post. I have a few suggestions for you, that is not the "get a new group" recommendation, so here's my two cents: 1. Whatever you do, don't penalize the one good player. He doesn't deserve getting a weakened status in a party of nincompoops just as you don't deserve for your well-planned out world to be abused by said party. I suggest here what some have already suggested. Run a one-player campaign for him, if you and he are interested in doing so. I've run games with two players, and if they play well, it's worthwhile. 2. I think that the nincompoops' classes are too complex since they are incompetent players. I think you need to state to them that they may only use classes in the PHB until such time as they understand and can utilize the basics of game mechanics (combat, etc.) and role-playing. Two of the four level 1 characters (assuming these are some of the nincompoops since you've obviously been playing long enough for one character to make it to level 4) are the Dragon Shaman and the Soulknife. That's a no. Those players should not be allowed those classes. Since the good player does not have this problem, he can continue as he is. A level 4 warlock. And yes, the new characters in basic classes (which are good classes, to begin with) should start at level 1. 3. The colisseum idea makes a lot of sense. I've used this in a game for a task, but I feel bad for you having to use it full-time. I suggest a sewer crawl. That way it's not a dungeon and traps are not mandatory in sewers. Get them to learn their combat in a different location, heck, an open field. But at least to get to said open field, the good player might have a chance to role-play, and/or find treasure, plot pieces, etc. 4. I don't think that the player's ages is the key problem here. Anybody in that range should have developed abstract thinking skills (per what I remember in my Educational Psychology course), or at least should have almost developed them. Find out the root of the problem of their incompetence. One player assumes the worst and goes off and plays another game? This might be a self-esteem problem. 5. A person can be logical. People are stupid. Perhaps you should give each player the opportunity to play a one-on-one session once or twice (or as needed). Not influenced by others, their actions might change, and it forces them to think for themselves. I'm not saying cancel the regular sessions until this happens. I'm saying to take some time over the course of a long period of time, to educate individually these incompetent players in D&D. When I first started D&D, as I'd never played a table-top RPG before, the DM (since the other players were more experienced) played a one-shot session with me by myself, to do exactly this before the campaign started. I can't tell you how valuable this was in the long run. 6. Someone who posted before mentioned that the one player might be basing his idiotic moves off of things he learned in movies. It might be interesting to show examples of those movies for inspiration and then turn the tables and analyze why things in movies shouldn't have happened and critique them as per they are not realistic. They might learn from your criticism of a third party (in this case, the film), that some things are idiotic and should not be attempted. Anyway, I hope all this helps, and I wish you the best. And your one "average" player.
Third_Level_Bomb 11-06-07, 02:31 PM	I'd like to point out really quick that a lot of players (and DMs, too...) don't appreciate these big, over-developed worlds and plot lines. The average player is just looking to sit down, have some laughs, have some fun, and then go about his business. You need to find an exceptionally serious group for any of the work you obviously did to have any meaning. That doesn't mean you're overly serious, and it damn well doesn't mean that most gamers are too casual, it means that you need to take time out of your busy schedule to come up with a less fleshed out, more one-shot-esque plot that can incorporate some humor, and play with it. Eventually some of the casual gamers will want something more serious, while others (I would be one of these, BTW), will just enjoy being with friends and having fun. At that point, you can select the ones with an equally, or close to it, serious view on gaming, and have a full campaign in your beautiful, fleshed out world, with just them. Remember that just because you have fun with these big, borderline over thought plots/worlds doesn't mean everyone does, and in order for your players to appreciate it, you have to find players who will enjoy it. This may mean holding their hand through fun and games style one shots until they develop a taste for intrigue, but eventually you'll find two or three of them within your group, and maybe another will run into you at your local book store, and then you can give the serious game a shot.
TheGreatSanguini 11-06-07, 06:15 PM	It seems a lot of people have gotten things a bit confused. I'm not mad or even irritated that my story isn't being used. I'm not trying to go ahead with the story. In fact, as I mentioned in the first post, they haven't accomplished ANYTHING plot related, out of any of the directions they could have chosen. The only one who has lived long enough to do such a thing would be the warlock - and he has been too burdened by incompotent stooges to get anything meaningful done as well. They are not even involved with plot or its likeness currently. They are engaged in tutorial mode, and have been for three months. I've put them in an Adventurer's Guild with a tight leash. The guild is led by a cleric. He briefs them on their missions, then uses teleportation circle to get them to the general area. He uses geas to ensure that they perform their duties and do not tarry too much. This is a necessary precaution with my party, sadly. Because they are in tutorial mode adventure guild, new characters are reintroduced all the time without background being needed. All characters are made ahead of time using the 30point system. Also, since the time of my last post, once again, EVERY party member except the warlock has died. This most recent adventure was as follows: 1) Go to a house, that you have a map to, and that has a sign out front. 2) Enter the house. There is an NPC waiting to give you food water and bed since you undoubtedly forgot to pack any of those things. 3) The NPC also gives you all torches, and specific directions that are infallible, to a small cave where goblins are hiding. The goblins have taken (random object), and you are going to take it back. 4) Go to the small, one room cave, to which you have infallible directions. 5) Defeat the four standard goblin warriors there, and the one level 1 goblin fighter boss. They are standing in plain site from the entrance of the cave. They have no traps or ambush set. The way it happened: 1) The map got eaten by dummy #1. The party then got confused, and wandered around town looking for: -money on the ground (dummy #1) -food, specifically cookies (silly guy) -people to hug, in order to test improved grapple (dummy #2) -The House, that has a big sign out front (Warlock) -The House, or at least someone to kill for the fun of it. (Rogue) 2) After the warlock found the house, dummy #1 decided "Hey, we can't be sure this is the house!" and threw a spear through the window, as a test of whether it was a trap or not.. Dummy #2 rolled his initiative, then ignored the result and took a swing at the (open) door. Silly guy used Tenser's Floating disk, hopped on top of it, and was preparing to bombard with alchemist's fire. Rogue ran around to the back of the house. Warlock used two scrolls of colour spray to calm down his errant companions, then attempted conversation with a very displeased NPC. 3)The NPC gave them directions, and then Rogue (who had been unable to be neutralized by colour spray) intimidated him one last time. The party then went on their merry way, after being exiled from the town by the guards (I've grown tired of imprisoning them, it's far too common). 4)Dummy #2 decided to wander away from the party as soon as they left the town, claiming he was scouting ahead. He scouted ahead into the woods. This would've been fine, if not for the fact that the party was travelling along the road instead. Dummy #1 had a random encounter with a basic, monster manual wolf. Needless to say, it was a vicious slaughter. The rest of the party, not knowing the fate of their companion, decided that it was for the best, and continued going towards the cave. 5) Upon sighting the cave, silly guy cast ghost sound play a dramatic orchestra hit, into the cave. The party continued closing the gap, but then at the last second dummy #1 bolted directly towards the goblin cave. He attempted a jump check, to hop on top of the cave entrance (which I'd already informed him, was 19' tall to the nearest ridge and embedded in a mountainside). He tried anyways, fell short, and landed directly in the cave prone. The rest of the party, not able (or willing) to reach him, used their slower land speed to continue closing the gap. The goblins destroyed dummy #1 almost instantly, given that he was prone, surrounded, and decided to pull out a hunk of cheese as his standard action. The battle was brief, and a lot bloodier than it should have been. In the end, silly guy died because he ran out of first level spells and tried to run into the back of the cave, past the goblins, and took about three attacks of opportunity from it. Rogue died, because it was only him and the warlock left at this point, and he got flanked by the boss and his one reminaing cohort. (I don't hold this against him, it was a bad situation to be in that he had little choice in). Warlock finished off the fight, finished off the quest, retrieved the item, and went home unscathed yet again. This is the last example that I can fully cite for you all. I want to make it painfully clear - I want to help them, I don't want to go ahead with plot. I'm not doing this for myself, I'm asking for advice on how I can help out these foolish individuals. I've gone head to head with each of them at this poitn, all of them want to play D&D. All of them are willing to learn. All of them say they're serious. All of them are liars, but regardless this is their response :P The OP clearly doesn't want an interesting story, he wants his story. Not true. I want a story. I want them to live long enough to create a campaign, rather than continue in tutorial mode. As is, I am fully considering running the campaign on two days. One for Warlock and Rogue, one for wingus, dingus, and the flying horseradish. Just have them working around in the same world.
Aryxbez 11-06-07, 06:55 PM	No way these guys are actually serious, pulling out a piece of cheese instead of a weapon?! I would tell you to ditch these guys as life is too short to be gaming with morons. However I will instead tell you that you should tell them to play more seriously. That or ask them what type of game they want. If they don't say, then tell them you want a serious game, where characters have logic and play by their alignments and such. So no LG guy is going to kill orphans. Also if they tell you they're serious, ask for proof of them actually being serious. If you must give examples of such logic and seriousness, such as a character is going to fight back if there life is in danger against a enemy. That people don't go and try to jump in pits they know are lethal to them and will potentially kill them if they go into it. Personally on the sad guy who plays sonic, I would tell him either he plays or goes home, and if always leaves, just go and never come back. So remember, Life is too short to game with Morons, I should really find the person who made the quote.
Third_Level_Bomb 11-06-07, 07:26 PM	Also, since the time of my last post, once again, EVERY party member except the warlock has died. This most recent adventure was as follows: 1) Go to a house, that you have a map to, and that has a sign out front. 2) Enter the house. There is an NPC waiting to give you food water and bed since you undoubtedly forgot to pack any of those things. 3) The NPC also gives you all torches, and specific directions that are infallible, to a small cave where goblins are hiding. The goblins have taken (random object), and you are going to take it back. 4) Go to the small, one room cave, to which you have infallible directions. 5) Defeat the four standard goblin warriors there, and the one level 1 goblin fighter boss. They are standing in plain site from the entrance of the cave. They have no traps or ambush set. The way it happened: 1) The map got eaten by dummy #1. The party then got confused, and wandered around town looking for: -money on the ground (dummy #1) -food, specifically cookies (silly guy) -people to hug, in order to test improved grapple (dummy #2) -The House, that has a big sign out front (Warlock) -The House, or at least someone to kill for the fun of it. (Rogue) 2) After the warlock found the house, dummy #1 decided "Hey, we can't be sure this is the house!" and threw a spear through the window, as a test of whether it was a trap or not.. Dummy #2 rolled his initiative, then ignored the result and took a swing at the (open) door. Silly guy used Tenser's Floating disk, hopped on top of it, and was preparing to bombard with alchemist's fire. Rogue ran around to the back of the house. Warlock used two scrolls of colour spray to calm down his errant companions, then attempted conversation with a very displeased NPC. 3)The NPC gave them directions, and then Rogue (who had been unable to be neutralized by colour spray) intimidated him one last time. The party then went on their merry way, after being exiled from the town by the guards (I've grown tired of imprisoning them, it's far too common). 4)Dummy #2 decided to wander away from the party as soon as they left the town, claiming he was scouting ahead. He scouted ahead into the woods. This would've been fine, if not for the fact that the party was travelling along the road instead. Dummy #1 had a random encounter with a basic, monster manual wolf. Needless to say, it was a vicious slaughter. The rest of the party, not knowing the fate of their companion, decided that it was for the best, and continued going towards the cave. 5) Upon sighting the cave, silly guy cast ghost sound play a dramatic orchestra hit, into the cave. The party continued closing the gap, but then at the last second dummy #1 bolted directly towards the goblin cave. He attempted a jump check, to hop on top of the cave entrance (which I'd already informed him, was 19' tall to the nearest ridge and embedded in a mountainside). He tried anyways, fell short, and landed directly in the cave prone. The rest of the party, not able (or willing) to reach him, used their slower land speed to continue closing the gap. The goblins destroyed dummy #1 almost instantly, given that he was prone, surrounded, and decided to pull out a hunk of cheese as his standard action. The battle was brief, and a lot bloodier than it should have been. In the end, silly guy died because he ran out of first level spells and tried to run into the back of the cave, past the goblins, and took about three attacks of opportunity from it. Rogue died, because it was only him and the warlock left at this point, and he got flanked by the boss and his one reminaing cohort. (I don't hold this against him, it was a bad situation to be in that he had little choice in). Warlock finished off the fight, finished off the quest, retrieved the item, and went home unscathed yet again. Oh, come ON! How is that not funny? I wish my group had a sense of humor like yours. And BTW, nobody does that unless they're trying to be funny. Seriously, nobody.
Undrhil 11-06-07, 09:06 PM	There's silly, then there's stupid silly. These guys (except for the Warlock and Rogue) are stupid silly. I have a silly player in my group (and I confess that I would be a silly player if I were not being the DM) who is at least considerate enough to try to stick with the current flow of the game. Prepping for battle? He might have his character out looking for trouble. Actually in a battle? He fights just as his character should. No muss, no fuss. To the OP: You keep asking for tips and ideas for how to deal with this group of losers. Everyone has told you to drop them. I can understand that you want to keep the group together but there is no good reason to keep this group together unless they start being a little more serious about it. Some people hear D&D and think Dumb & Dumber, not Dungeons & Dragons...
TheGreatSanguini 11-07-07, 07:05 AM	Yes, I realize that many people have told me to drop them. I also realize that many people can't seem to read, and missed the whole part about me being unable to drop them, since there are no other players in my area. Additionally, there really aren't many people who'd consider becoming a player either, although that would generally be the next best step and I appreciate Davda's suggestion. There is very little flexibility that I have available to me. Nobody else CAN DM, even if they were inclined to. Additionally, none of them are inclined to. I cannot simply boot them, because they're the only players I have, and they're friends. No way these guys are actually serious, pulling out a piece of cheese instead of a weapon?! He believed he could bribe the goblins with it, in the middle of combat... Personally on the sad guy who plays sonic, I would tell him either he plays or goes home, and if always leaves, just go and never come back. Not an option, as mentioned plenty of times. He doesn't always play sonic, but he often steps back about 5 feet and does something else. He's not being lured away from D&D by something else, he's leaving because he gets too easily frustrated by it. I guess more or less, I should be asking these questions to psychology experts, not D&D players. I guess I hope that one of you has overlapping interests. I want a way to fix my players and get the campaign.. into a campaign. I really hope that there IS a way.
knightwriter 11-07-07, 09:35 AM	I would definitely enforce alignment rules here. Next I would make the ramifications of his actions come back on him, by say, having an npc observe his actions and then do the same to him, or prevent him from doing some of these horrible things. Although the biggest thing here is that it sounds like your player is immature and disruptive to the game. I would take him aside and explain that he can't be so disruptive or you will have to ask him to bow out of playing.
Phrennzy 11-07-07, 10:17 AM	I would have stopped the session the moment the player announced he wanted to eat the map. Why are you enabling them? DM: "The bartender gives you the map to the goblin cave." PC1: "I eat it." DM: "No. Looking at the map, you can see the cave is not far." PC1: "No you can't, I ate it." DM: "No, dude, you didn't. You wouldn't eat the map in real life. Quit acting like an idiot." Unless you want to take a hardline with them, you need to stop playing D&D and play TOON or some other game that people can play ****ing retards. Just because the player announces an action doesn't mean it happens. I'm sorry, but when the guy says he chucks a spear into the house of the NPC they are there to visit, I would stop and ask why. Chances are, I would just pack up the game and suggest something else right then. You need to express to these guys that the way they are playing - random, idiotic acts, bizarre motivations and stupid behavior - is not fun for you. Talk with them openly and plainly and ask why they do these things in game. You need to find out what they want out of the game, and let them know what you want. Worst thing that happens is you don't play D&D for a while. You might also just start a side game with the warlock player and the rogue. Where do you live, BTW? There are many many ways to recruit other players.
LFK 11-07-07, 10:57 AM	Phrennzy is pretty much right. You're enabling them by allowing them to actually do thier dumbass stunts. That said, depending on how sensitive they are shutting them down might be just as disruptive as kicking them out of the group. At the end of the day you need some kind of heart-to-heart with them to find out what kind fo game they think they're playing. Tell them that it's not very satisfying for you. Joking, lighthearted fun is fine, but dumbassery isn't. Tell them to play characters with at least some sense fo self-preservation.
Dog_O_War 11-07-07, 12:46 PM	This is one of the worst groups ever. That I have ever heard of. They aren't even trying to play. A sense of humor is one thing, but a sense of humor that hurts others (whether intentionally or not) is cruel and uncalled for. I have a few questions for you; How old are you? This is so we (the online community) can get an idea of what your mindset may be. Where do you game? That is, location of the table (your area is okay if you'd like to attract other posters to your game) Do your players show up to the game without coersion? (this is the most important thing, as it shows that there is hope) Do you feel any loyalty or fondness for these individuals? Now for suggestions. Silly players; Kill them (the character) by random, "silly" events. falling trees, lightning, out-of-control carts, etc... do this a few times and then ask; was my randomness funny? did it add to your enjoyment? The others get a kick out of it, but then are you? Because I hate to do those things to you. This may be abit harsh - use as a last resort. Ask them what they'd like to play: Then tell them they're playing fighters. All of them. Tell them that if they'd like to play another class, they'll have to make it to third level. Make the characters ahead of time for them. Give them stuff in common (dwarven fighters with large shields, short swords, and the phalanx fighting feat works good. Maybe even rhyming names). This forces them to band together; as a group mind even the quiet one should find a voice. It may sound and even appear counter-productive, but having the DM as a "common enemy" is better than having the campaign as one. Put a tough monster in their path. Not too tough; maybe a stahd zombie (without the disease). The PvP thing someone mentioned is a good idea; I find it helps players addicted to videogames a kind of release. Other suggestions will come once I learn more from the questions I posed. In the meantime, good luck.
TheGreatSanguini 11-07-07, 03:27 PM	I allow them to do the action that they propose, because I'm a strict believer that you should be able to do whatever action you want in D&D so long as it is within the rules and reasonable. I want to set an example as a good DM, so that when (or more likely IF) someone else in my group were to make a campaign, he would act in the same way. However, I guess that I should consider that, as it is an option worth exploring. Silly players; Kill them (the character) by random, "silly" events. falling trees, lightning, out-of-control carts, etc... do this a few times and then ask; was my randomness funny? did it add to your enjoyment? The others get a kick out of it, but then are you? Because I hate to do those things to you. This may be abit harsh - use as a last resort. I have done this with no success. Of course, often it requires no prompting as well - when I plan to kill them in a silly way, they often end up dieing from actions directly related to their own stupidity before my plan can reach them. They're level 1, any time they die, I can't possibly penalize them any worse than they already are. I can't give them consitution penalties on all new characters, or most of them would have ceased to exist by now, and that would not be conductive to getting them going. I'm trying to think of new punishments all the time, but it doesn't seem to work on them. Ask them what they'd like to play: Then tell them they're playing fighters. All of them. Tell them that if they'd like to play another class, they'll have to make it to third level. Make the characters ahead of time for them. Give them stuff in common (dwarven fighters with large shields, short swords, and the phalanx fighting feat works good. Maybe even rhyming names). This forces them to band together; as a group mind even the quiet one should find a voice. It may sound and even appear counter-productive, but having the DM as a "common enemy" is better than having the campaign as one. Put a tough monster in their path. Not too tough; maybe a stahd zombie (without the disease). I have tried giving them premade characters of my creation. It did not go over well. I would consider doing that to the whole party, if not for the fact that it would mean taking away the warlock. Either I'd stomp on his fun, or I'd be treating them unequally. DM: "The bartender gives you the map to the goblin cave." PC1: "I eat it." DM: "No. Looking at the map, you can see the cave is not far." PC1: "No you can't, I ate it." DM: "No, dude, you didn't. You wouldn't eat the map in real life. Quit acting like an idiot." I'm reminded of a situation similar to this, except that PC1 mauled and ate the bartender instead. The current solution I am enforcing: Next D&D day, my party will do a very simple, first level adventure. If even one of them dies on this adventure, they fail - and the party splits. I will run two different campaign days for each party, one consisting of the dumbasses, and one consisting of the Warlock, Rogue, and an DMPC of their choosing until one of the dumbasses ascends into their party from tutorial mode. I figure that at the very least, this way will stop Warlock from suffering because of the dummies, and the dummies can continue mucking around while claiming that "They're playing D&D".
kriskey 11-07-07, 03:31 PM	Be sure to keep us appraised of what your party does next. I'm finding these stories really entertaining so far.
Tukka 11-07-07, 05:15 PM	I allow them to do the action that they propose, because I'm a strict believer that you should be able to do whatever action you want in D&D so long as it is within the rules and reasonable. I want to set an example as a good DM, so that when (or more likely IF) someone else in my group were to make a campaign, he would act in the same way. However, I guess that I should consider that, as it is an option worth exploring. I think so. "Within the rules and reasonable." You said it there. The emphasis is mine and maybe you meant "reasonable" in a different context, but what it comes down to is that your players are not having their characters behave in a way that resembles reasonableness. Allowing your players to play in a silly or stupid manner occasionally, or if it is a part of their role-playing (they are playing a low intelligence, low wisdom goof) giving them free hand may work out just fine ... however, when you've got two players doing it, and one who is borderline at best, and it's holding back any prayer of forward progress for the entire party, it's time to take desperate and extreme measures (granted, you've already done some of that with tutorial mode, but these blockheads apparently need more). When your character tries to make a 19' leap to get "on top of" a cave entrance that offers no purchase, maybe say something like "As [character's name] prepares to make his running start for the jump, he realizes that, barring divine intervention, he has absolutely no chance of jumping even half the required distance, and there would be nothing to stand on top of even if he did." This is a less extreme and dramatic version of a guardian deva sweeping down and saving him -- the character's own int/wis (which is probably somewhere in the average or above-average range) is manifesting itself to combat the character's poorly thought out impulses (the actions dictated by a stupid player). If the player wants to continue on with his attempt, tell him to refer to his PHB section on the Jump skill, so that he understands exactly what it is he's attempting. There he will find that DC for a straight 19' high jump is 76. 19' less the 8' for the vertical reach of a medium creature is still 11', a DC 44 skill check. Even rudimentary math and reading skills should tell this guy that he has no prayer of making the jump, providing he understands the game's Basic Mechanic, which he might not. If he doesn't understand, spell it out for him explicitly. "Natural 20 + Jump skill of 8 (or so) = 28 which is less than DC 44. Failure is guaranteed. Why do you want your character to fail?" He will either reconsider or stubbornly insist on his original course of action. If he chooses the latter, I would just kill him in a ridiculous way (he breaks his neck immediately upon crashing to the ground) and tell him that if he isn't going to have his character behave in some vaguely rational manner, he's not welcome in the game. Same deal with eating the map. "[Character's name realizes] this map is one of the only leads you have to your next adventure, and if it is destroyed before the destination is reached, they may not be able to make it to their destination, and the guildmaster will be displeased. Also, the parchment has a rather unhealthy looking greenish tinge in places." If he insists on eating it, he chokes on it and dies and must sit out the remainder of this mission. Stuff like this will slow down the session, sure, but these guys sound like they NEED to take it slow. Challenge their every action with common sense and/or an explanation of the rules as they are presented in the PHB. They either don't have an intuitive grasp of the way the world works, or they are being deliberately obtuse. In either case, if you wish to keep playing with them, you're going to have to do a ridiculous amount of hand-holding, because they don't seem to be getting it, or learning from their mistakes. Keep rejecting their absolutely stupid plans and actions until they strike upon something that at least has a chance of bearing fruit, and if necessary, adapt the adventure so their less horrible ideas work out. Gradually maybe they will evolve into something resembling decent players, but with this bunch it sounds like I wouldn't count on that happening any time soon.
Tsochar 11-07-07, 05:30 PM	all right, I think in order for us to help you, you need to help us get a better feel for the people causing this situation. First, be more consistent in naming them. we all know Warlock, but what of the others? Since they change characters regularly, I suggest giving each one a specific, consistent nickname and telling us exactly how they reacted to exactly what situations were going on at the time. If you haven't thus far, pay extra attention to how they seem to feel about what's going on, if they think it's funny, if they seem bored, or whatever. Give us the full play-by-play, not just the most problematic portions. Consider the following analogy: You go to the doctor and describe your symptoms. He can't diagnose you on that alone, so he takes out his stethescope, tells you to turn your head and cough, taps your knee, asks you about your family history, your diet, whether you smoke or not, and then sticks some things somewhere depending on the symptoms. Since we can't do that, you need to give us EVERY SINGLE BIT of information about the gaming sessions that strike you as even marginally unusual. What are they like outside the game? Do they have specific likes that might come into play? Dislikes? Ask them what they want the session to be like beforehand, and then tell us what they say. If they don't give any specific answers, throw out suggestsions and tell them you won't start until they do. Ask exactly what they want they want their characters to be; if they're not attached to their character they won't get any better. Have they read any fantasy/scifi books or seen any fantasy/scifi movies? What were their favorites? Least favorites? What didn't they like about them? What did they like about them? Most of this sort of info can be used to make a more engaging experience for everyone. Now for my advice: If the silly/incompetent one does something just to be silly, something that defies logic, ask them why they want to do it, and try talking him out of it. From your example: PC: I try to jump onto the ledge above the cave entrance. You: It's 19 feet up. PC: Oh. Forget that, then. OR PC: I know. You: And you think a (whichever character he played), with no special magical jumping ability could jump that high? PC: Okay, fine, I won't try to do that. OR PC: Yes I do! You: That's an incredibly stupid move. I think your character must be insane. At this point, he could react any number of ways. He might accept that his character is insane, and you could introduce an NPC to keep watch on him (or alternatively give the players a similar responsibility), and then explain to him whenever he does something crazy that doesn't interfere with the adventure at hand or put his life in danger, the NPC (or players) will be conveniently unable to stop him, preferably in a comedic fashion. For example, the NPC's shoelaces come untied, he trips over, and a passing dog decides to mark the NPC as his territory. If you don't like bathroom humor, he might trip over onto a random woman who thinks he is a lecher trying to peek up her dress, and get smacked around by either her or her spouse. Meanwhile, the character tries his hand at, say, juggling cats. He throws one up, it lands on his face and scratches him, then as he runs around screaming and unable to see, he hits a ladder, causing a painter and a bucket of paint to fall on him. The cat hisses and walks away. If you allow the player to be funny, but set limits, then he will likely be much less of a problem on adventures. Alternatively, you might want to try dishing punishment for any misbehavior. He eats the map, give him indigestion. Humans can't digest paper, so have his guts clog up, making him double over in pain. If he tries to commit seppuku or something, tell him "you try but can't force your arms to your sides due to the pain." On the other hand, he might do such things specifically because he wants to fail, and bring the party down with him. If that's the case, it might work if you make it so that his actions, by some fluke of probability, actually cause victory. For example, when he lands after failing his jump, he kicks up dust which blinds one goblin, who then proceeds to take out his club and swing wildly. He hits the leader by accident, who tries to strangle him, and the rest of the goblins try to pry him off. In the resulting confusion, the blinded one tries to beat the leader with a rock he found, which turns out to be a flask of alchemist's fire. They all scatter and drop to the floor, rolling around to extinguish the flames, and the party comes in and finishes them off. I wouldn't recommend this method unless you were absolutely sure the guy was self-destructive and had exhausted the other options. If this method fails, and he continues to try to ruin the adventure deliberately, then give him an ultimatum: Stop doing those things or you'll eject him. You have enough players to eject one, or even two, although try to save that as a last resort. For the frustrated character who goes off to do other stuff, ask him if he really wants to play or not. As soon as possible. If not, ask why not. Ask him what he wants. If he wants an army of superweak zombies to plow through, give him that. If he just plain doesn't want to play, suggest that maybe if he didn't give up so much it would be more fun. If you can convince him of that, then on the next gaming session, fudge his rolls. Nobody has to know. I'm normally against that, but your group needs to be motivated, and if a little fudge is all it takes, by all means do so! That gives me another idea: give them a cookie if they do something you like. Anyway, before you dismiss unequal treatment, sit down one-on-one with the Warlock and ask what he thinks about treating them better. Maybe ask him to help you manage the other players. Tell him to voice disapproval at actions that are seriously bad ideas. If both you and him, and the rogue if possible, all say "come on man, stop trying to mess us up," then maybe you can get the horseplay to a more reasonable level. You mentioned the one guy isn't trying to ruin the game, he's just incompetent. What makes you think so? What evidence do you have that suggests he is genuinely making some kind of effort, or at the very least isn't trying to be funny? I allow them to do the action that they propose, because I'm a strict believer that you should be able to do whatever action you want in D&D so long as it is within the rules and reasonable. I want to set an example as a good DM, so that when (or more likely IF) someone else in my group were to make a campaign, he would act in the same way. Reasonable?! If those kinds of actions are reasonable, then what do you consider unreasonable?
Brownie 11-07-07, 05:34 PM	So far you seem to be neglecting the question about what area you live in. State is fine, If you live in the US that is, but I was just wondering in case you live around me. You seem to be a very dedicated DM, and put a lot of work into your world, and I'd be happy to play in your sessions. I live in Massachusetts, but seeing how you can't find players for your campaign, I suspect you live in a more rural area.
Phrennzy 11-07-07, 05:57 PM	This is the most entertaining trolling ever. If it's for real, I pity you, and would also like to hug and slap you simultaneously. It's important to let players know they can attempt everything they want in the game - WITHOUT IT BEING DISRUPTIVE TO THE GAMING EXPERIENCE. The bolded area is the part you are forgetting to enforce. "I want to jump to the top of the cave." "It's 19 feet up. You fail. Next." That's how you deal with that. "I eat the map." "No, you don't." "Yeah, I eat the map." "Right as you are about to eat the map you have a coronary and die. Go roll up a new guy." I do like the idea of treating them to their own medicine. I would first explain this to the warlock player. Next session: "I throw a spear at the house." "A blast of white hot energy lances out from the broken window, incinerating you. You are dead." "I draw my sword and run to attack!" "You draw your sword and run forward, but trip and fall and impale your crotch. You bleed out and die in a matter of moments." "I-" "Rocks fall from the sky and everyone dies." Then close the book and stare at everyone. Ask the problem players to stand and face you, all in a line. Then, with one swing, slap them all, right to left, with one slap. Very 3 stooges time. Or, you know, you could just tell them that playing like this sucks. It sucks. It's not fun and it makes you have no fun hanging out with them. Oooooh. I have an idea. Put money on the game. Player vs. DM. Bet them $20 each that they can't survive to level 20. After a year or so, if they make it to level 20, it will have been worth spending $80 for the entertainment. If they fail, you're $80 richer.
Tsochar 11-07-07, 06:06 PM	not enough. Bet them $10 per level, and then if they die they have to pay you back double. But limit it to stupidity deaths; if they die during the climactic battle with the BBEG, they don't have to cough up.
quarkstomper 11-07-07, 07:25 PM	Here's a thought, similar to some of the things other people have suggested. In Another Game System that I play, there is an advantage called "Common Sense" which allows a foolish player to take on the role of a prudent character. If a player whose character has Common Sense announces that he's going to do something that the GM feels is foolish, the GM rolls against the character's Intelligence and on a success asks him: "Are you SURE you want to do that?" If the player has any neurons firing at all, he will take the hint. And if he doesn't, then the GM is entitled to hose him six ways from hasenpfeffer.
Fly666monkey 11-07-07, 08:32 PM	I feel sorry about you having to go through this. Maybe every time they do something stupid, you put on a steel-toe boot and kick them in the shin!!!!!! When in doubt, resort to violence. PS: As a reward for trying your best, you get a coolness rating :ayyyy!: =Cool (Give it to the Warlock too. Put it in your sigs.) As for the other guys? they get this: :thumbsdow = LOSERS!
Mock26 11-07-07, 08:41 PM	Yes, I realize that many people have told me to drop them. I also realize that many people can't seem to read, and missed the whole part about me being unable to drop them, since there are no other players in my area. You have to ask yourself which is worse, playing with these guys and not enjoying the game or not playing the game.
TheFrohmen 11-07-07, 08:50 PM	Well, sounds like the boob is a munchkin. Here's a wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_%28role-playing_games%29 Now, tell me is that the player? -------------------------------------------------- As for your problem, I have these recommendations: Plan A: Politely tell the boob to use his brain. Tell other characters same (cept for the competent one[s]), but vary it for each. (i.e. Tell the one who does it on purpose to stop joking around) ---- If no improvement: Plan B (two sessions later): Start the ass kickin'. Spare those who are starting to make progress, but if necessary have the *******s ruin a perfectly good, easy, fun scenario just to get the party angry at them. Try to be a little gentle, though tough. ---- If all else fails: Plan Z (... what?): Kick out everyone cept of the competent one. Find newbies. Nurture them into good Rpers. If one shows any flaw, kill them all. As I say, if there's one bad egg, than so are the others (aka, take the eggs and destroy them... okay, maybe I'm just being silly). ---- But in all seriousness, you seem to need to lay down some authoriti. Good Luck.
TheGreatSanguini 11-08-07, 10:38 AM	By reasonable, I mean that for things that the rules don't cover (for example, use of trail rations to attempt to distract a hungry wolf) I live in Ontario, Canada. I didn't realize that I actually had to post this information, as I thought it was in my personal profile for any who were interested. This friday's session got cancelled, so that leaves a whole new week to think about what to do to these poor suckers. I have just been allowing them to take whatever action they proposed. I always inform them that their actions are stupid, but they either see no other option, or believe that they can pull it off against the odds anyways. (One of their favourite statistics is that a 20 occurs 5% of the time). And no, none of them are munchkins - I doubt that most of them are smart enough to warp the rules, and even if they tried I've been a rules lawyer for most of my life anyways. I will stop them from doing anything particularly ridiculous next session, as per suggestions. Hopefully things will work out. Thanks for the advice, -Sanguini
Dog_O_War 11-08-07, 11:37 AM	Damn, yer like two very long, boring provinces away from me...
Phrennzy 11-08-07, 02:46 PM	By reasonable, I mean that for things that the rules don't cover (for example, use of trail rations to attempt to distract a hungry wolf) Not a terrible idea, but it also matters WHERE you try this. I have just been allowing them to take whatever action they proposed. I always inform them that their actions are stupid, but they either see no other option, or believe that they can pull it off against the odds anyways. (One of their favourite statistics is that a 20 occurs 5% of the time). One of my favorites is that a 20 is not an automatic success on a skill check. If they are going to attempt something that is blatantly impossible (leaping 20' up with only a +5 jump skill) then just tell them they realize there is no chance they could make it. When they say they want to try, ask them why. You just said there is NO chance to make it.
darkdrgon2136 11-08-07, 03:04 PM	The OP clearly doesn't want an interesting story, he wants his story. My advice is write a novel, your players want to have fun, and your idea of gaming is way to serious for them.:rolleyes: that was'nt directed at the OP, it was to Phrennzy asking why you would read Shakespeare to monkeys.
Third_Level_Bomb 11-08-07, 08:39 PM	that was'nt directed at the OP, it was to Phrennzy asking why you would read Shakespeare to monkeys. I'm sorry. OP, those comments were directed at you.:bored: Seriously, though... Not all players want an overly serious game, and not all players want an overly silly game. You're trying to run a predominantly serious game in a predominantly silly group. Don't try to force them to do things your way if they're having fun doing it theirs, just ask that one of them DM and then join in with the humor and fun. Or you could just lighten up, I mean, I don't see what's so bad about that...:bored: But, if you feel like continuing the way you are, I foresee only one logical outcome: Step 1::rant: , Step 2::tantrum:, Step 3::banghead: Your players: Silly: :rofl: , Serious::uh-huh: And yes, I did make this post entirely because I love the smilies.
The_Wild_King 11-09-07, 03:26 AM	They're part of an adventuring guild, right? Led by a high level cleric? Then its also reasonable that there are high level wizards in the guild that could scry on your group's missions. They start acting retarded, wizards come in with teleport, knock them out with one of their spells, and take them back to the guild hall where they are punished for treating official guild business in such a despicable manner. Still acting retarded? Throw a Mark of Justice on them. They try anything that you deem inappropriate, bam, the curse starts working. In an adventuring guild, there are always the adventurers that have been around longer teaching/containing the next generation so all their life's deeds don't go to hell in a handbasket. Also, instead of draining just constitution points when they roll up a new character, roll a d6 and assign an attribute to each side. Whatever you roll, they lose one point in that. This way they have a few more lifetimes to think about what they're doing wrong before they cease to exist
CheesieM0nkies 11-09-07, 11:49 AM	Whenever I made an NPC with a name that lasts more than one session, random people spontaneuosly combust. Seriously - one time we played a starwars campaign, and one guy strangled a baby in front of yoda in the jedi council I think that this all depends on what you want vs what your players want. Roleplaying games allow you to ROLEPLAY, not nesscearly a serious adventure. Hell, I enjoy it when my player act stupid. It makes it more fun, and as long as i LET them be stupid then they will, get it out and act serious. Right now it seems that everyone has been entrenched in their positions - the silly people see no point since the warlock is 4 levels higher, teh warlock likes owning everything, and you are trying to teach players who want nothing more than a good laugh Consider letting them be jerks, and keep open minded, laugh it up. I gotta say that setting his horse on fire to make it move faster cracked me up. Also, give them all a fresh start at level 3 or 5, so they have a chance to be even - if they want. The best advice I can give is run an Order of the Stick adventure. If you havent read this comic, you should at www.giantitp.com/oots/0001.html I'm not saying that you want to push for a story, but you still take it to seriously. Usually, I dont even plan adventuers, I just wait for some PC to roll a 20 on a Craft: Steriods Mutant check. And something like that always happens. One guy used animate dead and imbue spelllike ability to create an immortal "Warping Kitty" Our lawful good paladin felt like turning evil and so he ate the footprint of the BBEG, who later became his mentor. Thats my 2cp
Brownie 11-11-07, 01:28 PM	One of my favorites is that a 20 is not an automatic success on a skill check. There is a variant, which I'm guessing he has in place.
Tsochar 11-11-07, 02:36 PM	(One of their favourite statistics is that a 20 occurs 5% of the time). Tell them that 60's (or whatever roll they'd need, roughly) happen 0% of the time. When you say, "they see no other option," could you give an example? I seriously doubt anyone with a single brain cell could fail to see that they could simply wait, charge in, attack from hiding, or whatever as opposed to trying to jump up 19 feet.
Mock26 11-11-07, 07:01 PM	One of their favourite statistics is that a 20 occurs 5% of the time. Actually, every time you roll a d20 there is a 50% chance of rolling a 20.
pmurray@bigpond.com 11-11-07, 07:44 PM	In my experience, younger gamers are all about trying things that they could never hope to experience or get away with in real life. Also, they tend to not have the life experience needed to realize that the characters would be a lot more serious about things. An awesome insight. IRL, you don't learn to drive until you have had a car accident and discovered that broken bones hurt (currently recovering from a broken wrist :pbbbtt: ).
danielinthewolvesden 11-11-07, 09:01 PM	I would have stopped the session the moment the player announced he wanted to eat the map. Why are you enabling them? DM: "The bartender gives you the map to the goblin cave." PC1: "I eat it." DM: "No. Looking at the map, you can see the cave is not far." PC1: "No you can't, I ate it." DM: "No, dude, you didn't. You wouldn't eat the map in real life. Quit acting like an idiot." Unless you want to take a hardline with them, you need to stop playing D&D and play TOON or some other game that people can play ****ing retards. Just because the player announces an action doesn't mean it happens. I'm sorry, but when the guy says he chucks a spear into the house of the NPC they are there to visit, I would stop and ask why. Chances are, I would just pack up the game and suggest something else right then. You need to express to these guys that the way they are playing - random, idiotic acts, bizarre motivations and stupid behavior - is not fun for you. Talk with them openly and plainly and ask why they do these things in game. . Right, good post. Talk to them- like ADULTS. Explain you want a heroic not a silly campaign. But this sounds very strange. Can you invite your players here and have them give their side of the story? The reason I ask, is that there was a similar thread to this a couple years ago in the players forums. The player aid he had his PC's act silly as he was tired of the railroading and super-DMPC's in that DM's game. Your players might have a different view on why they act like that.
Nom 11-11-07, 10:37 PM	Yes, I realize that many people have told me to drop them. I also realize that many people can't seem to read, and missed the whole part about me being unable to drop them, since there are no other players in my area. Additionally, there really aren't many people who'd consider becoming a player eitherPeople often say this. It's rarely true. Besides, you have at least two or three cooperative players. Have a serious game with them (2 is enough PCs, just; 3 is fine). If the others still want to play a silly game, let them, but go over the top. Don't make it hybrid serious, don't prepare much, don't worry about stats or location or anything. Just improvise silly situations and let them roll dice. The adventure begins when an ogre falling from the sky crashes through the roof of their inn and begins attacking. The guy who tries to leap onto the cave mouth sticks there like flypaper (miss a turn). Keep the action fast and furious. Remember that you're not playing D&D, you're doing silly improv storytelling that happens to be done with a D&D character sheet and a d20. Either you and your players will become better improvisors, or you'll all grow bored and do something else instead. Either way, the issue will sort itself out. Addendum: do you play other board/war games with these guys? What sort of games? If they can have a serious game of Risk (or other game requiring a couple of hours of concentration) but not D&D, then maybe it's something you're doing. In contrast, if they can't stay serious for 10 minutes when playing (say) Halo, then you've got buckley's* of getting them to play serious D&D. * "Got Buckley's" - abbreviation of "Buckley's chance or none", Australian slang for "no chance". See this article (http://www.anu.edu.au/andc/ozwords/Oct%202000/Buckley's.html).
RaythMolba 11-12-07, 01:08 AM	Something you may want to try that happens in my games is to hypothetically go through with what your characters say they want to do. In the games I play (I'm a PC, not the DM, but I hope to be some day) when my fellow players get an idea for something funny they should do (and I do this too) then they say they do it, and everyone would laugh, and then he says what he really wants to do. Like, maybe your PC who ate the map only said it because he was trying to get a laugh, and then he would be serious after he got the giggles out. Maybe instead of trying to make them stop being silly you could just let them say it but don't let them go through with it. My DM even tried to get us to stop this by making what one of our characters said really happen, and everyone got mad at him because it was ridiculously obvious that he didn't mean for it to really happen, and when everyone got mad at him he stopped doing it, and now we just crack jokes every now and then, and no one breaks the game with stupid moves. Just an idea, it helped us I suppose, so maybe it could be just what you need.
Radijs 11-12-07, 07:59 AM	Actually, every time you roll a d20 there is a 50% chance of rolling a 20. I'd like to see your math on that.
Kurikin 11-12-07, 08:30 AM	I'd like to see your math on that. There are two possible outcomes. 20 and not 20, therefore a 50% chance of each happening.
Drascin 11-12-07, 10:02 AM	There are two possible outcomes. 20 and not 20, therefore a 50% chance of each happening. I have to admit, that made me chuckle. I have to remember to say it to my statistics teacher, just to see the look on his face :P
Entropy_Judge 11-12-07, 10:14 AM	I have to admit, that made me chuckle. I have to remember to say it to my statistics teacher, just to see the look on his face :P Careful, though, he might not get it. I know my math teacher (Physics, AP Phsyics, Calc, and other higher HS math) would try to explain how that wouldn't work out. You'd have to explain the joke to him, and *then* the light bulb would click.
Phrennzy 11-12-07, 12:07 PM	There are two possible outcomes. 20 and not 20, therefore a 50% chance of each happening. I'm glad you pointed this out, because I was very curious. It did make me laugh as well.
Etarnon 11-12-07, 12:38 PM	I allow them to do the action that they propose, because I'm a strict believer that you should be able to do whatever action you want in D&D so long as it is within the rules and reasonable. I want to set an example as a good DM, so that when (or more likely IF) someone else in my group were to make a campaign, he would act in the same way. Here's my spin. This is your wake up call, cold water shower, slap upside the head whatever you want to call it. Like many have said, read this closely: You are too serious, they are too silly. Your game is your game, and you have lost control of it, as DM. They are playing comics to your straight man, only you don't realize it. They are in fact poking fun at your seriousness in order "To Get Reactions of Frustration from you." You asked for advice. Here it is. Every time you set up a game, they get laughs at your expense. You say these are your friends, and you have to keep them. You have them "in Tutorial mode" to teach them how to play. As if you know better than them how to play. As if you need to hand feed and spoon feed them a "Game" to get them to "Learn how to play the right way." THEY KNOW HOW. They just DON'T CARE TO. Every time you act like a scolding parent, they act like misbehaving children, and it's a vicious cycle / chain. All your work is down the drain, because it's essentially most of them picking on you. You do the work of DM while they are "not so inclined." Whatever. They are getting their jollies by harassing you. They are at the house and "eat the map." Dude, they are bored to tears with your trying to "Tutorial" them, and "Railroad" them, even into the simple kill 4 goblins thing. That;s a scenario for an 11 year old. Stop slaving over the hot scenario for them, and enabling them to mistreat you. Really it's just a case of breaking the paradigm. Your being SO Serious to every silly thing they do in response is feeding the monster. You need to counter their silliness with your own, until you lighten up, and see the humor in it, or you all decide it's been enough and end it. Given a map, the PC eats it. Ask yourself, Why? it's to provoke a reaction out of you. Makes no sense otherwise. At all. Even for a moron. It's a malkavian CN thing to do. So you say, "It takes like paper. Now lost, since you have no map, what will you do?" Calmly, with zero reaction, and zero drama, (bite your tongue if you have to) Ask the one guy who is helping you to take charge of the party, as they decide what to do next. Refuse to hear anything other than stuff like "We go hunt orcs, we hunt a dragon, we seek treasure." By reacting to them, like they are bad little kids, they are loving it. You are reinforcing them like petting a dog that is biting you, "Good dog! *bite bite*, good dog." You got to realize: You don't need them. The one guy plays in your style, so salvage him if you can. Sometimes friends change, as people grow past them, and this might be a case of that, seriously. If after your next session these silly guys don't want to play, stop inviting them to play, because your goals and theirs (except the one) are radically different. Your whole group is passive aggressive, disruptive, and asinine (except for the one guy). Finally as others have said, you do have options, (quit the game, start another group, find better players) unless you yourself don't take them for whatever psychological reasons that underlie your need to be treated this way. You seem to need these people as friends. in the end, you need to get better, more supportive friends, and drop most of these as far as playing D&D is concerned. I could go through a litany of When one door closes, another opens but start looking for another group. Yesterday. Suffice it to say You need to stop going on about about how you need these people, and realize you got a dysfunctional game group, because you have set it up that way, and keep it going, by your actions. The harsh, but likely truth.
Mock26 11-12-07, 06:28 PM	I'd like to see your math on that. As Kurikin explained, you either roll a 20 or you don't roll a 20. That's a 50-50 chance! There are two possible outcomes. 20 and not 20, therefore a 50% chance of each happening. I actually think that you are the first person in something like 3 or 4 years that actually got that joke! Congrats! I have to admit, that made me chuckle. I have to remember to say it to my statistics teacher, just to see the look on his face :P Let me know the example you use (I always like using the "everything is 50% rule" when talking about lottery tickets) and how it turns out! If you do this in front of the entire class and can do with a straight face you'll be sure to get a LOT of laughs.
pmurray@bigpond.com 11-12-07, 07:12 PM	PC: I try to jump onto the ledge above the cave entrance. You: It's 19 feet up. PC: Oh. Forget that, then. OR PC: I know. You: And you think a (whichever character he played), with no special magical jumping ability could jump that high? PC: Okay, fine, I won't try to do that. OR PC: Yes I do! You: That's an incredibly stupid move. I think your character must be insane. I prefer option 3 - apply the existing rules for using the Jump skill. It's in the book. If the character can reach up 8 foot with their fingertips, then its a DC 44 jump check - do-able with magic jumping boots, good Str, and a few points in Jump. Add synergy from climb and tumble if they are sort of jump/scrambling up the cliff face. If they juuust reach the ledge with the fingertips, then it's a DC 10 to lift themselves up (I think). Or better still - use option 4: the Climb skill. My point being: the rules cover this. You don't need to apply rule 0. Work out between the playrs and the DM how the rules apply, and use the game system as it was intended to be used.
CheesieM0nkies 11-12-07, 10:02 PM	Here's my spin. This is your wake up call, cold water shower, slap upside the head whatever you want to call it. Like many have said, read this closely: You are too serious, they are too silly. Your game is your game, and you have lost control of it, as DM. They are playing comics to your straight man, only you don't realize it. They are in fact poking fun at your seriousness in order "To Get Reactions of Frustration from you." You asked for advice. Here it is. Every time you set up a game, they get laughs at your expense. You say these are your friends, and you have to keep them. You have them "in Tutorial mode" to teach them how to play. As if you know better than them how to play. As if you need to hand feed and spoon feed them a "Game" to get them to "Learn how to play the right way." THEY KNOW HOW. They just DON'T CARE TO. Every time you act like a scolding parent, they act like misbehaving children, and it's a vicious cycle / chain. All your work is down the drain, because it's essentially most of them picking on you. You do the work of DM while they are "not so inclined." Whatever. They are getting their jollies by harassing you. They are at the house and "eat the map." Dude, they are bored to tears with your trying to "Tutorial" them, and "Railroad" them, even into the simple kill 4 goblins thing. That;s a scenario for an 11 year old. Stop slaving over the hot scenario for them, and enabling them to mistreat you. Really it's just a case of breaking the paradigm. Your being SO Serious to every silly thing they do in response is feeding the monster. You need to counter their silliness with your own, until you lighten up, and see the humor in it, or you all decide it's been enough and end it. Given a map, the PC eats it. Ask yourself, Why? it's to provoke a reaction out of you. Makes no sense otherwise. At all. Even for a moron. It's a malkavian CN thing to do. So you say, "It takes like paper. Now lost, since you have no map, what will you do?" Calmly, with zero reaction, and zero drama, (bite your tongue if you have to) Ask the one guy who is helping you to take charge of the party, as they decide what to do next. Refuse to hear anything other than stuff like "We go hunt orcs, we hunt a dragon, we seek treasure." By reacting to them, like they are bad little kids, they are loving it. You are reinforcing them like petting a dog that is biting you, "Good dog! *bite bite*, good dog." You got to realize: You don't need them. The one guy plays in your style, so salvage him if you can. Sometimes friends change, as people grow past them, and this might be a case of that, seriously. If after your next session these silly guys don't want to play, stop inviting them to play, because your goals and theirs (except the one) are radically different. Your whole group is passive aggressive, disruptive, and asinine (except for the one guy). Finally as others have said, you do have options, (quit the game, start another group, find better players) unless you yourself don't take them for whatever psychological reasons that underlie your need to be treated this way. You seem to need these people as friends. in the end, you need to get better, more supportive friends, and drop most of these as far as playing D&D is concerned. I could go through a litany of When one door closes, another opens but start looking for another group. Yesterday. Suffice it to say You need to stop going on about about how you need these people, and realize you got a dysfunctional game group, because you have set it up that way, and keep it going, by your actions. The harsh, but likely truth. For the sake of the OP we should all just quote and repost Etarnon's over and over again. If that doesnt work than I think this is officially a vent/troll thread
danielinthewolvesden 11-14-07, 12:47 AM	Can you invite your players here and have them give their side of the story? The reason I ask, is that there was a similar thread to this a couple years ago in the players forums. The player aid he had his PC's act silly as he was tired of the railroading and super-DMPC's in that DM's game. Your players might have a different view on why they act like that. OK, OP, TheGreatSanguini. have you invited your players here? :confused: