Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uratoh 02-05-07, 09:52 PM	I've got a couple players at my gaming table I really can't kick out cause theyre tsome of the few persistant players...but i need to curb their cheating. I've got player A and player B. Player A isn't too bad...sometimes I think he lies about die rolls sometimes to succeed at things. Player B's the real problem one...he has delusions of 'winning D&D' and 'being the main character'. He'll power attack for everything he can with a greataxe, needing a natural 20 to hit, then announce a successful crit...he tends to sit opposite the GM at the table, I've seen dice of his come up well a lot...but the close he keeps his hand to them, I cant help but think he's got ranks in Sleight of Hand himself... If these two aren't cheating, then their dice are 'too hot' as it were...either way, its making it impossible to balance games...an Iron Golem's no threat if you just power attack for 12 with a two handed weapon and get two natural 20s on your 3 attacks...
stargate525 02-05-07, 09:59 PM	I've got a couple players at my gaming table I really can't kick out cause theyre tsome of the few persistant players...but i need to curb their cheating. I've got player A and player B. Player A isn't too bad...sometimes I think he lies about die rolls sometimes to succeed at things. Player B's the real problem one...he has delusions of 'winning D&D' and 'being the main character'. He'll power attack for everything he can with a greataxe, needing a natural 20 to hit, then announce a successful crit...he tends to sit opposite the GM at the table, I've seen dice of his come up well a lot...but the close he keeps his hand to them, I cant help but think he's got ranks in Sleight of Hand himself... If these two aren't cheating, then their dice are 'too hot' as it were...either way, its making it impossible to balance games...an Iron Golem's no threat if you just power attack for 12 with a two handed weapon and get two natural 20s on your 3 attacks... Sit player A at your left hand, B at your right. Tell them straight up that you're sick of their cheating. All die rolls must be seen by you or they DO NOT COUNT. If you suspect cheater dice then have them use yours.
Archangel_James 02-05-07, 10:01 PM	Every time you suspect them of cheating, they don't get experience for that encounter. If they give you the "But I wasn't cheating!" line, just tell them that they should have rolled their dice in the open so you could make sure. They'll get the point soon enough.
Icewraith 02-05-07, 10:05 PM	*bzzt* I'm sorry, that statement is incorrect! Iron golems are constructs, and cannot be critted on! Constructs, plants and undead are a great way to temporarily solve issues of player fudging. ...anyway Assign a trustworthy player to sit next to a questionable fellow and check his rolling. If that is going to raise too many issues, institute the following table rule: "A natural roll of 20 must be immediately presented or displayed to the other players and/or the dm for confirmation." So, when a person rolls a natural 20, they must immediately show everyone the dice in its pristine, unaltered state. No turning the dice up to 20 and then saying "Oh, I just got a 20!"- players rolling is usually pretty obvious, so this should curb fudging. It helps if you also abide by this rule, since a DM shouldn't be fudging bad rolls into 20s anyway.
ShadowDragon8685 02-05-07, 10:08 PM	Okay. Flat out call him on it. The amatuer psychologists on this board can argue day in and day out, but that's just too blatant. Say "You're a liar, Bill Turner! You let the dice fall where they may - and any more shennanigans with any roll from you automatically becomes the worst possible outcome." If he gets defensive, say "My table, my rules. Everyone sees the roll and confirms it, or you go. And that goes for everyone, too." Therein you look, very pointedly, at Player A. Get a large "Dice Arena" or something for everyone to toss their dice into, and have it confirmed by more than one person. Don't allow A and B to confirm each other's rolls.
Uratoh 02-05-07, 10:14 PM	*bzzt* I'm sorry, that statement is incorrect! Iron golems are constructs, and cannot be critted on! Constructs, plants and undead are a great way to temporarily solve issues of player fudging. I know this. he's not confirming ludicrous crits in this case, but he gets two out of three hits when he needed a natural 20 due to the power attacks he took to hit, etc. (+11 or higher BaB)
stargate525 02-05-07, 10:32 PM	If the above fail, hit him with a chair. Hard. Better yet, strap the chair to the front of a car and hit him like that.
gorckat 02-05-07, 11:15 PM	I've got a couple players at my gaming table I really can't kick out cause theyre tsome of the few persistant players...but i need to curb their cheating. Perhaps the part in bold has something to do with the part underlined :)
ciryx2k 02-05-07, 11:27 PM	I agree with all here. A persistant player who cheats means a persistant cheater. This detracts from the fun for all of the honest people in the world. Personally, I'd have them both sit close enough to watch. Institute a house rule that ALL dice rolls must be made towards the center of the table. NO player is to touch their dice before the DM has seen the roll. Tell them to roll and then pull their hands back. If they refuse, inform them that a violation of table rules means no XP for this session. If you would like to be REALLY underhanded, make a private roll behind the GM screen for them and go off that instead of their roll. If they don't understand why the guy rolling 18's is hitting and they're not with a 40, tell them "there's a reason why, but you have know way of knowing in character. Roll Spellcraft as a standard action to see if you can figure it out. No matter what the roll on the check is, tell them "You can't seem to find a reason." I know having players leave makes a game suffer, but so does cheating. It's a hard position to be in, especially if these people are friends.
Saigonkix 02-05-07, 11:36 PM	I've got a couple players at my gaming table I really can't kick out cause theyre tsome of the few persistant players...but i need to curb their cheating. I've got player A and player B. Player A isn't too bad...sometimes I think he lies about die rolls sometimes to succeed at things. Player B's the real problem one...he has delusions of 'winning D&D' and 'being the main character'. He'll power attack for everything he can with a greataxe, needing a natural 20 to hit, then announce a successful crit...he tends to sit opposite the GM at the table, I've seen dice of his come up well a lot...but the close he keeps his hand to them, I cant help but think he's got ranks in Sleight of Hand himself... If these two aren't cheating, then their dice are 'too hot' as it were...either way, its making it impossible to balance games...an Iron Golem's no threat if you just power attack for 12 with a two handed weapon and get two natural 20s on your 3 attacks... call them out next time it happens.
Krusk 02-06-07, 12:57 AM	Im a fan of sitting them next to you, and saying i need you here because someone said you might be cheating, but im not naming names. But please roll all die in the open from now on. Ive got a player with cheater die, and befor every session i walk over, take them, and loan him some of mine. Giving his back at the end of session. Easiest solution. No reason given, he knows i caught him and dosnt even protest. Came up once. "hey why did you take my die?" "Spins die, showing him multiple 5's and no 1." "oh, ok fine".
DarkRhystar 02-06-07, 01:21 AM	From my reading of the first post, I'm guessing the OP isn't the DM here. The simplest methods to stop cheating are to simply have everyone roll in the middle of the table in plain view and/or have the DM institute a "I must see the outcome myself or you fail rule."
fatal error 02-06-07, 02:24 AM	If you're not the DM, talk to the DM. If you are the DM, make them sit closer to you, and watch their die rolls carefully. Once they cheat, you have two options: A) Call them out immediately, using peer pressure to either make them instantly reform or leave. B) Wait until after the game, then talk with them about not cheating. If B, then watch them next game and if they cheat again move to A.
Bengal 02-06-07, 02:33 AM	I find that the best way to curb this in a non-confrontational manner is to create an official rolling surface. I find that a felt-lined box that the players throw their dice into is the best way to encourage honesty in rolling, and it's easy enough to check for mis-numbered die. Weighted dice are more difficult to spot, but if you have a clear glass of water, that can often help.
ciryx2k 02-06-07, 02:54 AM	I find that the best way to curb this in a non-confrontational manner is to create an official rolling surface. I find that a felt-lined box that the players throw their dice into is the best way to encourage honesty in rolling, and it's easy enough to check for mis-numbered die. Weighted dice are more difficult to spot, but if you have a clear glass of water, that can often help. Just curious for future info if weighted die come up. How does the glass of water help?
danielinthewolvesden 02-06-07, 03:19 AM	1. Sit down and talk with everyone like adults. 2. Or, suggest "everyone has to roll a clearly visible die out where everyone can see it" Do not worry about loaded dice. Hard to do with D20 (well, many are slightly off but that is not the same as loaded). Do check their dice for the "cheaters dice" which has the one replaced by a 20. It's subtle, but deadly in the long run.
Bengal 02-06-07, 04:04 AM	Just curious for future info if weighted die come up. How does the glass of water help? The inconsistancies in weighted dice are easier to see in water. I had a player who used loaded d6 for his fireballs. Weighted dice will sometimes have a hollow chamber inside (which will make one particular side of the die float higher) and sometimes will have heavy metals inserted (usually hard to spot, look for unusual pinholes and similar strange damage). Genuinely weighted d20s are much less common than simple cheater's dice, however, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Boraxe 02-06-07, 10:00 AM	Simple. Swap their d20s for ones that have 1-10 listed twice. The moment they announce a roll greater than 10 you have proof they are cheting and can call them on it.
CharlieRock 02-06-07, 10:52 AM	If that is going to raise too many issues, institute the following table rule: "A natural roll of 20 must be immediately presented or displayed to the other players and/or the dm for confirmation." So, when a person rolls a natural 20, they must immediately show everyone the dice in its pristine, unaltered state. No turning the dice up to 20 and then saying "Oh, I just got a 20!"- players rolling is usually pretty obvious, so this should curb fudging. It helps if you also abide by this rule, since a DM shouldn't be fudging bad rolls into 20s anyway. Usually there is too much dancing and w00ting going on at my table to try and conceal a natty20. :D Perhaps the part in bold has something to do with the part underlined :) Dang. Spend a Feat on Improved Insight? :clap:
Tyler Do'Urden 02-06-07, 11:16 AM	I've got a couple players at my gaming table I really can't kick out cause theyre tsome of the few persistant players... I would begin an immediate search for new persistant players. Seriously, I can't think of any social game where cheating would be tolerated. In fact, most of the ones I can think of where cheating would even be an option involve money, such that cheating will result in an asswhooping. Either roll for them, require them to roll in the open (I always do), or commence defenestration.
Arrowhen 02-06-07, 11:29 AM	Persistent players or not, there's no way in hell I'd continue to game with anyone so blatantly disrespectful of the DM and the other players.
gorckat 02-06-07, 11:51 AM	Dang. Spend a Feat on Improved Insight? :clap: Nope. Weighted dice :D
ccerose 02-06-07, 11:58 AM	Just put a dice tray in the middle of the table and have everyone roll in it. http://www.rpgshop.com/images/uploaded/page4.jpg
Dunsel 02-06-07, 12:08 PM	Core players are hard to come by. Cheaters are not so difficult. It seems we have at least one cheater string per week. The posts usually vary from confront the cheater to roll so the Dm can see. Players know when another player is cheating. I have noticed players in my group add items to their sheets when they knew they forgot them. Players who *forget* to mark off food, arrows, gold, etc., are all cheating. Sometimes they are not aware of the cheating but the DM, at the beginning of each session, tells us what to mark off for gold. Some do not mark it off. While this is not considered as bad as battle cheating, it is still cheating. I suggest you tell the other players and see if peer pressure will force the cheating player into changing. A few years back, I noticed a core player cheating at my table, and I announced to the group immediately after I noticed the cheating, if anyone is caught cheating and his peers do not turn him in, the xps for that game session will not be distributed. The very next battle, the cheater was given up by the group. We all had a discussion about cheating and the core player stayed in the group. I haven't seen any cheating since.
Siduakal 02-06-07, 12:35 PM	I once heard an amusing suggestion. A DM said that he had weighted dice (Not that he used) - and if a player was cheating, he'd use those against that player. He claimed to not have many cheaters.
Evil DM Mk3 02-06-07, 01:06 PM	I had a proble with a cheater once. I kicked him out fo teh game as soon as I had proof. I have not let him game with me since. He has also been kicked out of other games I am aware of. Since then I have a clear area at the center fo teh table, all dice are thrown, not droped, lightly into that area. Dice that are droped, land on the floor or are otherwise uncheackable are considered to be the worst possible roll. It is harsh and soem players get the wrist action wrong and have the dice fly off the table, so I only enforce the "dice on the table only" rule once they have the hang of it, dishing out re-rolls instead. Teh table only thing is to 1 remove the hazard of treading on dice without shoes on (ouch!) and 2 to ensure there is no "You can't dee it easily but it is a 20, look I'll pick it up" situations. Hard but fair.
FeceMan 02-06-07, 01:24 PM	Rampant cheating = rampant beating. YMMV.
Cyanide300 02-06-07, 04:39 PM	I always make sure I can see dice rolls from wherever I'm DMing. If a player seems to be intentially covering their dice, just ask them not to do so. If they have nothing to hide, they won't mind it. If the cheating continues, and you would still like to keep the player in your game, do not confront them infront of everybody else (and especially not infront of a fellow cheater). Public humiliation is only going to make them try to save face and they will get angry and/or lie about their actions. If you want to keep them playing, you should confront them on an individual basis and keep the confrontation as private as possible. Just tell them that you know they're cheating, you can understand that it feels good to "win", but their cheating devalues the successes of everyone in the party. If they have an ounce of respect for their fellow players, they will stop. Make it a point to speak in a calm and rational tone while you're confronting them. If you get angry at them, that is a license for them to get angry at you. If the cheating continues after all that, then asking the player to leave is probably the best solution for all. Yeah yeah, "amature psycologist". Well I've actually taken classes in conflict resolution and negotiation, and it really is better to be an amature psycologist than a professional jackass.
Bengal 02-08-07, 04:38 AM	I had a proble with a cheater once. I kicked him out fo teh game as soon as I had proof. I have not let him game with me since. He has also been kicked out of other games I am aware of. Since then I have a clear area at the center fo teh table, all dice are thrown, not droped, lightly into that area. Dice that are droped, land on the floor or are otherwise uncheackable are considered to be the worst possible roll. It is harsh and soem players get the wrist action wrong and have the dice fly off the table, so I only enforce the "dice on the table only" rule once they have the hang of it, dishing out re-rolls instead. Teh table only thing is to 1 remove the hazard of treading on dice without shoes on (ouch!) and 2 to ensure there is no "You can't dee it easily but it is a 20, look I'll pick it up" situations. Hard but fair. If you're going to use that rule, you NEED to have a dice tray. It just plain works better.
SevSaint 02-08-07, 02:48 PM	All these suggestions pretty much are correct. But there is another solution. The variant rule for critical hits are 1. If a 20 or critical hit is rolled 2. Re roll and if the secound dice is a hit (doesn't have to be a 20) 3. Roll one more time if the third roll is a 20 (has to be a 2) then its a kill 4. If not then roll damage as normal. In effect he has to roll twice. Once he announces he has hit criticaly then you can watch his 2nd roll.
hedgeknight 02-08-07, 02:56 PM	Just make all rolls open and public - no "hand-cupping" of your freaking dice! What the hell kind of rolling is that anyway? :noway: To prove that all is gonna be fair and straight up, drop your DM screen and show your rolls too. Makes it fair for everyone. -g-
DM_Creed 02-08-07, 03:00 PM	Alright, as a DM of 18 years here is my advice... First, as someone mentioned. Grab a reliable, trustworthy player and ask him to keep an eye on the supposed cheater's rolls over a few games. Give this trusted person all that character's combat bonuses and any information he might need to see if the person is actually cheating. If you find out the person is in fact cheating over a few games. Take him or her aside and politely ask him or her to stop. DO NOT do this during a game and DO NOT do this in front of the other players. If they whine and whine and insist they aren't doing it tell them that you know for a fact they have and you want it to stop. Don't tell them anything about how you know. If they continue to cheat you can do one of two things depending on how evil you are. You can either... Ask them to leave the game. (And don't feel bad about asking players who are reliable to leave the game. There are TONS of players and way too few DMs. It isn't that hard to find more honest players in your area and allowing a cheater to stay will end up ruining your game in the end.) If the player is a close friend of yours this makes things a bit harder. You might want to sit them down and have a serious talk about it. But DO NOT allow the cheating to continue unchecked. Another thing you can do is start cheating right back against the player. Start having monsters hit when they should have missed, start having save DCs be just a bit higher than they should. Start messing with the dice results to bring balance back towards the cheater. (Note this would be considered an evil DM act and it may force an alignment change.) One thing I will stress again, DO NOT allow cheating to continue unchecked. I once learned that the hard way. =/
Type6 02-08-07, 03:07 PM	I don't even understand the idea of players hiding dice rolls. In my group it's not an issue at all, everyone assumes that the players roll dice where everyone else can see them. The only person to hide rolls is obviously the DM. Never heard of players not needing to show dice rolls, maybe it's just me being new to D&D...but I can't really see the point in it.
DM_Creed 02-08-07, 03:17 PM	I don't even understand the idea of players hiding dice rolls. In my group it's not an issue at all, everyone assumes that the players roll dice where everyone else can see them. The only person to hide rolls is obviously the DM. Never heard of players not needing to show dice rolls, maybe it's just me being new to D&D...but I can't really see the point in it. I don't know if the issue is more hiding or people fudging their bonuses. After all, at higher level rolling a two could mean rolling a 30 if you have enough bonuses.
hedgeknight 02-08-07, 03:18 PM	I don't even understand the idea of players hiding dice rolls. In my group it's not an issue at all, everyone assumes that the players roll dice where everyone else can see them. The only person to hide rolls is obviously the DM. Never heard of players not needing to show dice rolls, maybe it's just me being new to D&D...but I can't really see the point in it. AMEN! There IS no point in it..............unless you're a freaking cheater. And trust me, nobody likes a cheater. Address the issue and move on - with or without the players involved. You owe it to your other players to provide a good and balanced game; you can't do that with cheaters playing in it. -g-
Xandria 02-08-07, 03:27 PM	Now, I always prefer the shocking way of calling them out. Make 'B' a cake. Give him a party hat, and then announce that you're throwing him a party as the Master Cheater. The cake should say something along the lines of, "I'm a cheater." Promptly smash the cake, look at 'B' pointidly, and then ask, "Any questions?" Oh, or just film it secretly (camera, phone or recorder) and by the second time just play the game without him whether he is there or not. You should have no patience with a cheater. If he ask why he isn't in the initiative then announce that cheaters cannot play DnD. Or poison the cake and let him eat it.
DM_Creed 02-08-07, 05:09 PM	Now, I always prefer the shocking way of calling them out. Make 'B' a cake. Give him a party hat, and then announce that you're throwing him a party as the Master Cheater. The cake should say something along the lines of, "I'm a cheater." Promptly smash the cake, look at 'B' pointidly, and then ask, "Any questions?" Oh, or just film it secretly (camera, phone or recorder) and by the second time just play the game without him whether he is there or not. You should have no patience with a cheater. If he ask why he isn't in the initiative then announce that cheaters cannot play DnD. Or poison the cake and let him eat it. I'm not a big fan of calling people out and embarassing them in front of everyone. While it might be what he deserves, it isn't the most effective way to fix the problem. Especially if you want this person to play in your game again. If you are kicking him out then it doesn't really matter. But once you make an example of him, it will be hard for him to keep playing in that game.
Xandria 02-08-07, 05:41 PM	Really? Well, the people I play with expect it of me I guess. I just look down on people that cheat in a game-it's like stealing candy from children and then selling it back to them at double the price. It's unacceptable to me, and the people I play with. I suppose that going the subtle way would be good if you want him to continue playing. Filming him and them calling him out on it in private would work well...Depending on the person.
Milandros 02-08-07, 06:09 PM	Really? Well, the people I play with expect it of me I guess. I just look down on people that cheat in a game-it's like stealing candy from children and then selling it back to them at double the price. It's unacceptable to me, and the people I play with. I suppose that going the subtle way would be good if you want him to continue playing. Filming him and them calling him out on it in private would work well...Depending on the person. This seems a little... well, unnecessarily confrontational. Is there any result from this that leaves the OP with the same player, just without the cheating? Unless you really are willing to drop the player - and a DM who drops otherwise good players left and right is soon playing by himself - the simplest technique that gets the message across without forcing a split is to announce that due to uncertainty about some people's rolls, henceforth ALL players will roll in a box in the middle of the table. After a few games it'll be natural and nobody will want to go back. The shared "oooh!" or "aawwww!" of good and bad rolls amongst the whole group is actually quite fun.
Dm_Farble 02-08-07, 06:45 PM	These all sound like good suggestions to me. I dont suspect my players of cheating, but I wanna make sure. I play dnd with lots of handmade battle grids that serve as a map and reference to the players. Any suggestions where to put the dice box?
Xandria 02-08-07, 06:58 PM	We play on a table with battle grids and have no room for a dice box. We just roll on the grid where no one is at the moment. Everyone can see it, and you can't change it.