Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StrahdVonZarovich 02-02-05, 01:31 AM	Alright, I've been dming another campaign as of late, and I have serious problems with this individual...he really ****-me off ! First I don't think I should have allowed him to have the 'Spellfire Wielder' feat, since he's playin' a Sorceress, all spells who are headed toward him, are automaticly absorbed 'til he reach his limit. And when he does he either unleash 'em in a ratehr dangerous blast, or heal himself with 'em. Then the next round, each time a monster/creature unleash another spell-like ability/spell at him, he automaticly says 'I absorb it!' but in a so ****in' annoying, arrogant and idotic way ! On top of that, last session they were on a piread ship, and when they were about to leave, the PCs complained they had to oars all the way to the beach durin' 5 minutes, 'cause the ship couldn't get any closer then that to the isle. Then the sorceress threatened the Captn' and all his crew to get closer or she would toast the entire ship with one of her fireball ! The dwarf told the PC not to act in this rather, very STUPID manner/behavior(even knowing that this blast would kill him, and his fellow companions, y'know the type who's signel reply is always 'I don't care, I do it anyway!'). But he din't seem to care... The pirates went mad, saying, that they were lucky the captain was in a good mood, and since the wizard NPC saved his life, thats only why they allowed her to be onboard, and top of that, she's a sorceress, so he could as well ordered to kill her right on(the pirates were actualy a pretty superticious crew), when he wanted that ! Things got quite worse then that ! After they landed on the Island, he STILL wanted to shoot the whole ship with his freakin' fireballs ! The dwarf warrior who is with this other PC demanded to the Captain' to stay there until they'd be done with exploring the Island. The next day, the ship was gone(c'mun how foolish one must be to even begin to trust pirates?). The guy alignment is supposedly LN, tell me what the hell am I suppose to do with this kind of m...I mean PC ?
Derren S. 02-02-05, 01:38 AM	I think you need to reread SpellFire Wielder. To absorb a spell you need to ready an action to do so. You can't simply say you absorb spells when they are casted. Also, it only works on targeted spells. A fireball or desintegrate can't be absorbed.
StrahdVonZarovich 02-02-05, 01:40 AM	But isn't desintegrate a target only-one person spell ?
Derren S. 02-02-05, 01:44 AM	No, desitegrate is an Effect:Ray spell. It creates a reay which can be shot.
StrahdVonZarovich 02-02-05, 01:45 AM	So what ? Its only aimed at ONE person right ?
D_Martin 02-02-05, 01:49 AM	Sounds like the PC's got what they deserved to me. :) Continue with the island exploration. Now the PC's have to figure a way off the island I guess. That Sorceress sounds like a CN with a Cha of about 7. If they have a problem. Tell them about how they threatened and ordered the crew and captain around. Then ask, can you blame them for leaving you. Unsure of what the "Spellfire Wielder" feat is, or where it comes from, so I don't know what to say about that. But it sounds way over-powered.
ECOM 02-02-05, 01:52 AM	First let me say the the ship leaving was the correct answer. it is what i would have done as the captain of the ship in that situation. About the player Playing an arragent charicter is not necisarilly a bad thing but it seams to me he is playing more of a chaotic stupid charicter than a LN one. Here is some quaestion you need to consider 1. Are all his charicters like this? 2. Is his behaivor disruptive to the game or other players? 3. Does his behavior cause anyone to not have fun? 4. Do any of the other players complain about him? 5. Do you have to make special considerations do to his fullishness often? reread the spellfire Wielder feat again I belive you need to ready an action and it only affects targeted spells. if it still is a problem then send more chalenges that have nothing to do with spells and spellike abilitys. still send some that will have spell ability so the feat is not worthless, and mabie even overwhelm his wielder ability make him need to absorbe more than he can handle.
Finley DaDum 02-02-05, 02:01 AM	Players Handbook - page 175 - Aiming a spell Each Spell has a line which says Target, Effect, or Area For point of reference right after Range in each spell description. The spell has to have a Target for it to be a targeted effect, spells that have ray effects are a bit confusing, but they don't qualify as a targeted spells. The more important fact is that he needs to ready an Action to absorb the spell. Incase you aren't getting this that means he has to forego his standard action on his turn and use the Ready Action to absorb a spell if it is cast at him. If no one casts a targeted spell at him he effectively loses his turn. End Result this is a very nice ability but very controllable if played correctly.
StrahdVonZarovich 02-02-05, 02:22 AM	1. Are all his charicters like this? Mostly, yes, but not all of 'em. 2. Is his behaivor disruptive to the game or other players? Sometimes, yes, but not always. 3. Does his behavior cause anyone to not have fun? Yes me, and the other PCs. 4. Do any of the other players complain about him? Yes, the dwarf PC once complaiend about this whole mess. 5. Do you have to make special considerations do to his fullishness often? More often yes then no, unfortunately. Continue with the island exploration. Now the PC's have to figure a way off the island I guess. That Sorceress sounds like a CN with a Cha of about 7. If they have a problem. The Island exploration is far from being done, but actualy, they headed thru an ancient temple of Loth where they found the BBEG, and the artifact which they were suppose to acquire for the Wizard they were working for. But instead the BBEG fled with it, and the wizard was unpossesed since he was being controled by a demon, who left his body after rushing against the BBEG who banished him to his home-plane. Now, 3 other PCs joined them, but only after they discovered an abandoned village, in which they were attacked by a Necromental. After this, they were sent thru the same place but back in time for about 1020 years in the past. Now the village is quite busy, and the current lord asked them to find what was causing the forest creatures to flee, some strange creatures have been sighted it seem as of recently. The former temple of Lolth is now a temple of Moradin, full of happy dwarves and the village is no longer deserted. The dwarf doesn't understand one bit what the hell is causing this whole mess, and the other found it stange but not too strange. As the 3 others were in fact sent to that particular island to investigate bizzare phenomens who were occuring in the present. The whole warp thingy has actauly been caused by a Chaos Stone (a personal artefact I personaly invented) which affect time-zones, climates, space, and other things. They found it, but dunno what to do with it. Oh and while at it.. That Sorceress sounds like a CN with a Cha of about 7. His PC charisma score is actualy 16, and was CN before his alignment switched due to many card whom he picked form a deck of many things. I know big mistake from me, he jumped straight from lvl-9 to lvl-12 after winning the big 50000 XP reward, but he also lost all previous magic items(which he din't seem to mind, mind you, really a weird one).
Cold Napalm 02-02-05, 02:23 AM	Basically, your running spell fire wielder ALL sorts of wrong. If you used as written it's quite weak actually. The fact that you go so, it's a ray effect but it hit one target is sending off some bad sign here... 2nd, so the character is stupid and arrogant...let him go off and kill the party and make a new one...if he does it again make a new party and don't let him in that one.
StrahdVonZarovich 02-02-05, 02:26 AM	You mean he can only discharge it as a ray, when he wants to release all the charges he have accumulated so far ?
Cold Napalm 02-02-05, 02:40 AM	no the spell is a line effect, it might only affect one target but it hit whats in the path of the line first...so not a targeted spell like say magic missle...get it? Yeah yeah fine line, but an important one. Anyways your ignoring the even more important need a readied action rule too.
Habronicus 02-02-05, 11:34 AM	I think what you're forgetting most of all is how to be the Game Master. If I was controlling that game, and a player acted that way (menacing to put the ship on fire), I'd just pull out a particularly strong group of NPC's, with really high Initiative, and beat the crap out of the Sorcerer and send him overboard. PC dead. The end. Roll another, and stop acting like an ***, or just leave and don't let the door hit you on the way out. Heck, if I was in a good mood (or if the player only acted like that ocasionally), I'd instantly declare that the Pirate Captain has an artifact that casts Sleep with no Will save allowed. I would then send the PCs to shore and dump them there. Really, you can't take crap from bad players like that.
Alynn 02-02-05, 12:08 PM	Start doing an alignment change on him, LN my ass. Personally Move him toward evil, I'm guessing that would put his alignment in conflict with others in the party... Making him a target for party justice as well, nothing is keeping the party from killing the PC. After all he's gotta sleep sometime. And if he decides to Metagame "I wake up before he attacks me and cast a spell" you reply, no you are asleep and failed your listen check (hell let him take one at a -10 for being asleep)... Most groups I've played in disruptive people like this tend to be taken care of by the party (remember neutral good means doing good by whatever means nessisary, and this dude is clearly acting evil) After he is PK'd they tend to throw fits and storm out, and if you are lucky they never come back, if they do, you don't answer the door
Habronicus 02-02-05, 12:30 PM	(remember neutral good means doing good by whatever means nessisary, and this dude is clearly acting evil) You are right when you say that this player is acting Evil (and Chaotic), but your description of Neutral Good is incorrect. A Good aligned character never takes a life unless they have no choice. If this PC fights them, sure, they have the right to defend themselves, but if not, all a Good character can do is tell him to leave (Lawful) and, if he doesn't, dump him (Chaotic). In order to make "party justice", the PC doing the justice should be at least Neutral (Good/Evil axis) and the GM must allow in-party conflict.
Adrez Nesnsid 02-02-05, 12:42 PM	Unsure of what the "Spellfire Wielder" feat is, or where it comes from, so I don't know what to say about that. But it sounds way over-powered. Spellfire wielder is a feat from Magic of Faerun which allows a character to absorb spell energy and then channel it as a short ranged ray of energy or use it to heal damage.
Alynn 02-02-05, 12:50 PM	Actually in your opinion that is incorrect. My opinion destruction of those that are doing evil is a good act (as it keeps them from doing more evil). A neutral good individual will kill one to save the many in a heart beat. A neutral good character will steal a horse in order to get to where he needs to be to do the most good (but will return the horse, or pay for it later if possible). Now you would of course have to know someone is evil before acting on this, Even the PHB says that a good character protects innocent life, this other person is not innocent in the least. Even this asside, a neutral good character is asked to clear out a cave of goblins that are raiding and killing townsfolk, he will go in, and slaughter every one without a hint of guilt. So remember good and evil are subjective terms.
Derren S. 02-02-05, 12:54 PM	So remember good and evil are subjective terms. Not in D&D.
KP91 02-02-05, 12:57 PM	If he is absorbing spells stop targetting him with them. If you really want to kill him, use the (or what I consider to be) overpowered psionics. Then you could also have a lot of fighter typed enemies without spells. A few Orc Barbarians when he runs out of spells, or absorbed spells. Raise the EL by 1 or 2. Make it hard on him and have your other PC's negotiate peace with this enemy after they kill him off.
Alynn 02-02-05, 01:05 PM	You are right when you say that this player is acting Evil (and Chaotic), but your description of Neutral Good is incorrect. A Good aligned character never takes a life unless they have no choice. If this PC fights them, sure, they have the right to defend themselves, but if not, all a Good character can do is tell him to leave (Lawful) and, if he doesn't, dump him (Chaotic). In order to make "party justice", the PC doing the justice should be at least Neutral (Good/Evil axis) and the GM must allow in-party conflict. By this definition, a neutral good character walking by someone being murdered would just stand there and try to reason with the killers, which is absolutely absurd, he would attack the murderers... I consider myself neutral good IRL, and if I had the means and was in that situation, I'd be all up in there helping the dude.
Habronicus 02-02-05, 02:31 PM	By this definition, a neutral good character walking by someone being murdered would just stand there and try to reason with the killers, which is absolutely absurd, he would attack the murderers... I consider myself neutral good IRL, and if I had the means and was in that situation, I'd be all up in there helping the dude. Apparently, you misunderstood the definition to begin with. Assuming the "murderers" are Evil, and the NG character knows of this, then he would try to help the victim, if it was in his power, and was reasonable to do so. Given the choice, he would either lure them away from the victim, call someone who could act upon the event (like the town guard), or fight the evil "murderers" to submission. Killing them would be a last resort, but possible, of course. If, however, the character is unaware of the "murderers" motivation, and still decides to kill them, then he's just Chaotic Evil ("killing because it seems right to me"). That said, in your example... a neutral good character is asked to clear out a cave of goblins that are raiding and killing townsfolk, he will go in, and slaughter every one without a hint of guilt ...you are assuming again that the NG characters knows he has no choice but to kill. In fact, if he's truly acting upon his alignment, he would first try to find a way to push the Goblins away from the area without a needless blood bath. Regardless, a Good character always feels some sort of guilt if he has to take a life, whether it was warranted or not. You are NOT Neutral Good IRL if you are capable of killing someone, even knowing they are evil to the core, without filling some sort of sorrow for what you did/had to do. Anyway, this is becoming off-topic, so I'll leave it at that. Feel free to create a new topic if you wish to discuss further.
Cold Napalm 02-03-05, 11:06 PM	can we all agree that the character in question is at least choatic something? I mean really randomy tossing fireball at your mode of transportation is choatic...and I'd say stupid to boot. So he's choatic stupid. There done.
Ty 02-04-05, 09:29 AM	Is he readying an action every time he attempts to absorb a spell targetted at him? I believe the spellfire wielder feat and the text in MoF states that you have to ready an action to absorb a spell targetted at you... If your Sorcereress just wants to stand there in combat continuing to ready actions to absorb spells targetted specifically at her, without taking further offensive actions... let her. Spellfire is not automatic absorbtion of a spell that comes near a person. Additionally, I think the spellfire blast is a ray effect, like another poster stated. If you play Spellfire according to the RAW, it's not overpowered at all.
Darkwin6 02-04-05, 11:48 AM	I think what you're forgetting most of all is how to be the Game Master. If I was controlling that game, and a player acted that way (menacing to put the ship on fire), I'd just pull out a particularly strong group of NPC's, with really high Initiative, and beat the crap out of the Sorcerer and send him overboard. PC dead. The end. Roll another, and stop acting like an ***, or just leave and don't let the door hit you on the way out. So no point in putting skill point in Intimidate in your campaign then. You'd just get beaten down by Miniature, giant space Tarrasques appering out of nowhere everytime you threaten someone.... While I'll agree that StrahdVonZarovichs example of play here doesn't portray a very sensible use of intimidation, I don't hink inventing consequences for your players stupid actions is right. If they're doing something stupid and it would normally have no consequences then don't invent some just to punish them. I see people doing stupid things everyday and they seem to be doing fine anyway.
Draco_Whitewind 02-04-05, 01:43 PM	just for a note, you HAVE to check the DMG eratta, the xp gain was changed from 50k to 20k. and yes, fireball and disentegrate are not targetted spells. ~Draco
Habronicus 02-04-05, 02:07 PM	So no point in putting skill point in Intimidate in your campaign then. You'd just get beaten down by Miniature, giant space Tarrasques appering out of nowhere everytime you threaten someone.... While I'll agree that StrahdVonZarovichs example of play here doesn't portray a very sensible use of intimidation, I don't hink inventing consequences for your players stupid actions is right. If they're doing something stupid and it would normally have no consequences then don't invent some just to punish them. Did you even bother to check the context of the example? The OP said this guy is Lawful Neutral, and the ship's captain just did the party a favor. What reason did he have to threaten them, other than to cause trouble (a typical Chaotic element)? The solution I proposed isn't supposed to be used at random. Only when the player is acting out of what his character would naturally do AND is endangering the rest of the group by his inapropriate actions. Sorry, but to me a player has no right to ruin the game for everybody else, just because he got up in the wrong side of the bed that day.
Darkwin6 02-04-05, 08:37 PM	Did you even bother to check the context of the example? The OP said this guy is Lawful Neutral, and the ship's captain just did the party a favor. What reason did he have to threaten them, other than to cause trouble (a typical Chaotic element)? The solution I proposed isn't supposed to be used at random. Only when the player is acting out of what his character would naturally do AND is endangering the rest of the group by his inapropriate actions. Sorry, but to me a player has no right to ruin the game for everybody else, just because he got up in the wrong side of the bed that day. Yes, I did check the context of the example. I just don't think your solution is good for any situation in-game. Inventing/inserting extra consequences for actions you think are stupid doesn't help anything. If it's a problem with metagaming or players not following their alignment then bring it up as such. Don't send punishment encounters their way.
StrahdVonZarovich 02-05-05, 01:16 AM	I'm afraid we have different perceptions of what is a stupid act in this very context then, right ? DMG errata ? Never though about chking it, gotta admit that...*runs to read the errata*.
Habronicus 02-05-05, 03:29 AM	Yes, I did check the context of the example. I just don't think your solution is good for any situation in-game. Inventing/inserting extra consequences for actions you think are stupid doesn't help anything. So, what if, when I created the NPC, he already had that artifact, but kept it a secret? Also, what if the captain of the ship did hire tough bodyguards just for such an occasion? Would that be better than just making it up on the spot? You see, often, a GM has no idea what his players will do in-game, so it happens that some situations occur which become out of hand. IMO, being the GM means "working on the fly". If you just stand there and let your players take advantage of any situation you didn't plan, then you're not really GMing, you're just regurgitating a story. If it's a problem with metagaming or players not following their alignment then bring it up as such. As in "stop the game and talk to your players"? If that's what you mean, then I see it differently. Stoping the flow of gameplay should be a last resort. If they're acting stupid in-game, it's in-game I'll try to handle the situation. If they act stupid OOC (like starting a fight with another player), then I'll stop the game and handle it off the table. Besides, if you stop the game and say "you can't do that" (or something along those lines) to a player, they'll feel like they're on a leach, and their characters are under GM control instead of theirs. Don't send punishment encounters their way. What you call "punishment", I call "control". As I said, a last minute event is meant for extreme situations when things are getting out of hand. The secret is to make it look like it was pre-planned, instead of "made on the spot". That's why I suggested something plausible. A NPC can have a secret item that the players are unaware of, or a group of henchmen who are stronger than they look, but I'd never have Thor suddenly smiting the bad player with a Lightning from heaven - that would be blatantly obvious, and stupid. The only thing in my initial post that you could consider "punishment", is the "killing the PC" bit, but that is only an option if the troublemaker player is a recurring problem. According to the OP, this player in particular seems like the kind who acts like that all the time, so PC death is not so far-fetched. Every player acts stupid, at one point or another, but I don't go around killing their PCs. FTR, I've been GMing for 12 years and never had to kill a PC... :king:
Darkwin6 02-05-05, 09:16 AM	Habronicus Now that you've elaborated on your GMing style, I'm forced to agree with you on most points. We're not so different afterall. I'd stop the game for a minute if metagaming was rampant, but I see how it could be handled either way. What you call "punishment", I call "control". As I said, a last minute event is meant for extreme situations when things are getting out of hand. The secret is to make it look like it was pre-planned, instead of "made on the spot". That's why I suggested something plausible. The only thing the player did wrong was acting out of alignment. The rest was merely stupid. Inserting artifacts or a bunch of killer NPCs doesn't seem fitting. So she threatened to burn the ship and she could do it too. Nothing wrong with that as long as it's in character. Inserting "punishment/control" encounters/items to enforce alignment? You see, often, a GM has no idea what his players will do in-game, so it happens that some situations occur which become out of hand. IMO, being the GM means "working on the fly". If you just stand there and let your players take advantage of any situation you didn't plan, then you're not really GMing, you're just regurgitating a story. Agreed So, what if, when I created the NPC, he already had that artifact, but kept it a secret? Also, what if the captain of the ship did hire tough bodyguards just for such an occasion? Would that be better than just making it up on the spot? Yes, that would be much better. I see how you couldn't plan for every situation, but if the characters travel with a pirate then you should probably have the pirates statted out and if the characters decide to intimidate the pirates then....well, why not? FTR, I've been GMing for 12 years and never had to kill a PC... I've been GMing (and playing) for 11 years (more like 8 years because we've had a few breaks) now and I've had a few player deaths. I've never killed a player as punishment though.
Mirikon 02-05-05, 04:20 PM	Alright, I've been dming another campaign as of late, and I have serious problems with this individual...he really ****-me off ! First I don't think I should have allowed him to have the 'Spellfire Wielder' feat, since he's playin' a Sorceress, all spells who are headed toward him, are automaticly absorbed 'til he reach his limit. And when he does he either unleash 'em in a ratehr dangerous blast, or heal himself with 'em. Then the next round, each time a monster/creature unleash another spell-like ability/spell at him, he automaticly says 'I absorb it!' but in a so ****in' annoying, arrogant and idotic way ! On top of that, last session they were on a piread ship, and when they were about to leave, the PCs complained they had to oars all the way to the beach durin' 5 minutes, 'cause the ship couldn't get any closer then that to the isle. Then the sorceress threatened the Captn' and all his crew to get closer or she would toast the entire ship with one of her fireball ! The dwarf told the PC not to act in this rather, very STUPID manner/behavior(even knowing that this blast would kill him, and his fellow companions, y'know the type who's signel reply is always 'I don't care, I do it anyway!'). But he din't seem to care... The pirates went mad, saying, that they were lucky the captain was in a good mood, and since the wizard NPC saved his life, thats only why they allowed her to be onboard, and top of that, she's a sorceress, so he could as well ordered to kill her right on(the pirates were actualy a pretty superticious crew), when he wanted that ! Things got quite worse then that ! After they landed on the Island, he STILL wanted to shoot the whole ship with his freakin' fireballs ! The dwarf warrior who is with this other PC demanded to the Captain' to stay there until they'd be done with exploring the Island. The next day, the ship was gone(c'mun how foolish one must be to even begin to trust pirates?). The guy alignment is supposedly LN, tell me what the hell am I suppose to do with this kind of m...I mean PC ? First off, Spellfire doesn't work like that. The PC must ready an action to absorb the spell. When she does this, it is an ability like a Rod of Absorbtion. Meaning it would only affect targeted spells and rays aimed at her. Fireball, Wail of the Banshee, and Circle of Death would be unaffected, to name a few, but Magic Missile, Disintegrate, and Power Word: Kill, would be affected. Second. He can only store spellfire levels up to his CON score. Meaning if he has a 10 CON, he can only store 10 spell levels (10 magic missiles, or three lightning bolts and two Ray of Frosts, as cantrips are counted as 1/2 level.). Spells that cannot be fully absorbed are treated as follows: absorb levels up to CON score, divide the remaining spell levels by the original spell level. Treat the remainder as though it was affected by a Spell Turning spell, with the exception that no damage can be sent back to the caster. Third. You were perfectly reasonable to maroon them on the island. Frankly, you should have had the pirates try to murder the sorceress in her sleep. Try doing Spellfire type healing against a Coup-de-gras. Fourth. Introduce said caster to the joy that is an ambush in an antimagic field. Spellfire will not work in an antimagic field, as such, said sorcerer is SOL. Fifth. If that doesn't humble the sorcerer, introduce the party to this group of beings called Beholders. Sixth. Have a quiet chat with the player, away from the group. Tell him that he's been butchering the rules from the get go, and then instruct him how things will work from now on. If he doesn't like it, the door's that way. As a note, Spellfire seems like it is overpowered on the surface, but if played to the RAW, it is not nearly as overpowering as people imagine.
Derren S. 02-05-05, 04:45 PM	One thing, as you have to ready an action to absorb spells, a spellcaster with spellfire can't power homself up except when using delay spell or quickened spells.
StrahdVonZarovich 02-16-05, 03:34 AM	Would one of you mind explaining to me why he/she can't absorb large area-esque spells like circle of doom, fireball, chain-lighting and so on ?
Derren S. 02-16-05, 04:58 AM	Chain lightning could be absorbed, but not fireball. A spellfire wielder can only absorb spels targeted at him and a firball isn't targeted.
digoraccoon 02-16-05, 08:56 AM	I've been GMing (and playing) for 11 years (more like 8 years because we've had a few breaks) now and I've had a few player deaths. I've never killed a player as punishment though. In this kind of situation, one can probably set things up so that the character is "punished in character" by his/her own actions. Im my game we have a player who loves to think every idea he has is the best one. Well at one point he thought this one country is going to war so he writes a letter to the 17 year old daughter of a high level general in this country telling her to escape the country and he'll have friends pick her up in the next country over. He acted smug like he knew this was flawless, but it wasn't. For one, the young lady is nieve and doesn't know the first thing about protecting herself. Secondly she's a well known person in her kingdom (and quite a bit rich) so any rogue looking for a fast buck would love to target her. She runs off in the middle of the night and never showed up at the destination. Her father comes home to find the note the PC wrote and thinks it's a kidnapping so he goes out to find her and the PC, taking his friends with him on the search. The PC doesn't know what happened and blames the father (I don't know how he made that leap of logic). The PC confronts the father and asks what he did with his daughter. The father asks the PC the same question and why kidnapp the girl. The PC said cause he's a terrible father and at this point the PC digs himself into a duel where the PC is killed. He (the PC) started to realize that "maybe" this wasn't such a good idea. The rest of the party never bothered to find the PCs body after they pieced together what happened. In the end it was the PCs own actions that led to his death, there was no argument in that part. This is how players usually die in my games, by their own actions.
StrahdVonZarovich 02-16-05, 01:07 PM	*Laught maniacly* That must have been somethin', you must have one damn of a laught when toying with him !