Post/Author/DateTime	Post
iKitten 12-20-04, 01:49 PM	One of the big caveats of playing a game in my group is that we're all fans of the barfight. As a DM it's one of my biggest headaches though. The d20 system just doesn't seem to lend itself to brawling very well. Taking out attacks of opportunity would help, except that one of the party members happens to be a monk with combat reflexes. He soundly trounces anyone who comes up against him unarmed and untrained in the ways of fighting, which is as it should be. Still, the system of four or six characters going head to head with unarmed and improvised weapon attacks provoking an AoO everytime they sneeze seems a headache. So I'm wondering, could any of you think up a fast/fun adaptation or house rule specificly for this time-honored pursuit of booze and brawling? As far as my contribution, I'm pondering tossing out AoO's from throwing a punch without improved unarmed strike in favor of using the Once-per-round initiative varient. Narratively, it works about the same way, one character sees the move coming and intercepts with his own attack quickly. This only really affects the monk negatively, as he does not get as many opportunities to make attacks of opportunity...and possibly any rogues as well...but I feel it's negligable trade-off. If I can get some friends together, I might play test this later.
Dash Branaghan 12-20-04, 01:58 PM	I would just consider the regulars in the bar who are used to the bar fight to have Improved Unarmed Strike. Some of them won't, and that will distinguish the dangerous bar fighters from the rest of the rabble. Granted, if they are level 1 Commoners or level 1 Warriors, it shouldn't make much of a difference. Then you could always implement the honor of the bar fight concept. No one takes AoO within the bar (maybe post a sign saying as much above the bar..."No Kicking a Man When He Is Down"), and anytime someone does, they rouse the ire of the entire bar (which leads to swarming/bull rushing tactics). Alternatively, the minute someone is hit with an AoO, they draw a weapon and make it real combat. Yes, the monk is a superior fighter, yes they probably know that, but a bar brawl doesn't revolve around killing people, it revolves around non-lethal damage. The minute someone does lethal damage or takes an AoO, they are attacked with real weapons. Just some thoughts. Dash
Ilium 12-20-04, 02:00 PM	This isn't an issue if none of the participants has IUS, since they aren't considered armed and can't take AoO. It's only cases like the monk that cause the problem. I don't quite understand the variant you describe. Does it let you move your initiative ahead of your opponent instead of getting an AoO? That seems like it would flow well for a bar fight, though it does rather hose the monk. Lawful characters shouldn't be getting in bar fights, anyway. :) Actually, keeping the AoO will encourage the improvised weapons because being armed gets you the AoO. Of course, the improvised weapons break all the time, so you are back to being unarmed and throw a couple of punches, then pick up a chair...
Ricky 12-20-04, 02:08 PM	Still, the system of four or six characters going head to head with unarmed and improvised weapon attacks provoking an AoO everytime they sneeze seems a headache. Actually, this is not the case. A PC making an unarmed attack provokes an AoO from the defender UNLESS the defender is also unarmed. Therefore, if everyone in the bar is making unarmed attacks, the only person who can make AoOs is the monk (and anyone else who uses either an improvised weapon or has Improved Unarmed Strike).
clarkvalentine 12-20-04, 02:19 PM	I like dash's idea. Make it pseudo-combat, complete with slightly altered rules. In a bar fight, the GM may declare "Brawl!" at which point the following rules take effect. Much like a hockey fight - you want to bloody the other guy's nose, not orphan his children. - Unarmed attacks draw no AoO. - Improvised weapons, even clubs, do nonlethal damage only. - No penalties for attacking with improvised weapons. - If you take more nonlethal damage than your Con bonus, you must make a Fort save or be KOed. - Improvised weapons may break/shatter at the GM's whim, when it would be cinematically cool for that to happen. Or something like that. I have improvised dueling rules to make pistol duels more exciting in my Pirates game. No reason you can't do that same here.
olshanski_home 12-20-04, 02:29 PM	Check out Ricky and Illium above. No need for house-rules. The core rules work great for bar fights, as long as you apply the rules correctly: 1) An unarmed person does not threaten a space, and thus cannot take an AoO. 2) Unless a person has combat reflexes, they can take only 1 AoO in a round, regardless of how many are provoked.
e-z0r 12-20-04, 03:41 PM	The AoO of an armed opponent against an unarmed opponent is based on the better reach of a weapon vs a fist. The unarmed opponent has to close the gap between him and his opponent to get to take the slug, thus bringing himself in strike range of any weaponry the opponent has. Hence, the AoO. Now, if you're brawling, neither has the advantage of stabbing the other one when he comes close. So, no AoO. But in a close bar brawl, a great sword or longsword wielder would have significant trouble weilding the weapon against any unarmed opponents, since there isn't enough room to be striking your opponent. A sword needs enough space to be swung properly, and if everyone's wallowing around in a tight mass, you're never going to get a good swing at your opponent.
PhaedrusXY 12-20-04, 03:44 PM	Check out Ricky and Illium above. No need for house-rules. The core rules work great for bar fights, as long as you apply the rules correctly: 1) An unarmed person does not threaten a space, and thus cannot take an AoO. 2) Unless a person has combat reflexes, they can take only 1 AoO in a round, regardless of how many are provoked.What he said. A moderately leveled monk should be able to trounce everyone in the bar in a brawl. Ever watch a Jackie Chan movie?
Dash Branaghan 12-20-04, 04:55 PM	The AoO of an armed opponent against an unarmed opponent is based on the better reach of a weapon vs a fist. The unarmed opponent has to close the gap between him and his opponent to get to take the slug, thus bringing himself in strike range of any weaponry the opponent has. Hence, the AoO. This doesn't explain why the monk can do it, or why anyone with Improved Unarmed Strike can attack someone with a weapon and not draw the AoO. This might be acceptable for someone who doesn't have IUS, but it is not a catchall like you make it to be. Now, if you're brawling, neither has the advantage of stabbing the other one when he comes close. So, no AoO. Wrong again. A monk or someone else with IUS can still get AoO against someone who doesn't know how to fight unarmed. The number is determined by whether they have combat reflexes (and subsequently their Dex bonus). But in a close bar brawl, a great sword or longsword wielder would have significant trouble weilding the weapon against any unarmed opponents, since there isn't enough room to be striking your opponent. A sword needs enough space to be swung properly, and if everyone's wallowing around in a tight mass, you're never going to get a good swing at your opponent. Again, this sort of thinking is taken into account under the grappling rules. When grappled, you can only use light weapons, and, IIRC, they are limited to piercing weapons only. In a bar brawl, weapon length is irrelevant, unless you are using a ranged or reach weapon (a ranged weapon draws AoO as per usual, and reach weapons that can only be used on opponents ten feet away or farther will also draw AoO). The reason for this is because Small or larger creatures cannot occupy the same square when fighting each other unless they are grappling. So you could swing your greatsword or long sword in the bar fight scenario, despite there being people in every square, unless you were grappled. To Olshanki, Ricky, Ilium and Phaedrus...the OP understands the RAW of the system, but wants to make bar fights fun, instead of the monk trouncing the crap out of everyone. The suggestions made by myself and others are based on this request. And really, it's not a life and death issue, it won't kill the PCs or overly nerf their abilities (outside of the context of a bar fight, it won't have any effect on their abilities). So despite the RAW, or Jackie Chan movies (which are laughable...go to a martial arts tournament and see real fightining...very different), let iKitten have a system that keeps bar fighting fun. Dash
Ilium 12-20-04, 05:02 PM	Ok: given that the goal is to allow the monk to enjoy a bar fight (instead of just cleaning up on everyone) you will have to make some kind of rules change. I think one big problem is the whole hit point thing. Mid-level characters have lots of hit points but only do 1d3 + Str when unarmed (another good reason to pick up improvised weapons). So I'd say the simplest and most effective suggestion so far (from clarkvalentine) is to say all the improvised weapons do non-lethal damage and don't impose a -4 penalty. The bar patrons can pound the monk with chairs and mugs (not provoking AoO because they're armed) and do a decent amount of damage.
e-z0r 12-20-04, 05:38 PM	Dash, I wasn't really speaking of a rules perspective, more of a "thoughts about AoO" perspective. That is, I wasn't trying to interpret the rules, rather I was trying to interpret how the rules are trying to interpret real life. :) The monk's case is obviously different. IMO, the monk's AoO should simply base on the monk's training, when fighting someone with little or no training. A martial artist knows how to exploit someone giving up his defense in order to throw a crude brawling punch. As to why an armed person doesn't get an AoO when a monk hits him, I'd say simply that the monk learns when to close in for the punch. For example, any good or average self defense class will teach you when you should close the gap between yourself and an opponent with an ax/knife/nunchuck/broken bottle so that he can't take that free swing at you when you bring yourself up to the weapon's reach. The rules and I disagree about being able to wield a sword effectively in tight areas. For example, a great sword simply weighs so much that it has to have enough room for the swing to gather speed, before it will do any damage. It doesn't matter jack squat how big the sword is if you don't get enough speed on it, as medieval swords rely a lot on how big the momentum is when you bring the sword down on your opponent. And as we know, speed is somewhat decisive in momentum. In armies special arrangements had to be made for claymore-wielding soldiers so that they could get a good enough swing but didn't risk harming friendly soldiers while swinging the big hunk of metal around. Now I know D&D doesn't care about this, but then, I don't care what D&D thinks about it :) Now, back to the issue at hand, and about handling brawling the D&D way, I encourage you, Dash, to re-read iKitten's topic starter. It seems that you misunderstood it so that he thinks the monk is too overpowering. If you read carefully, you'll notice, I think, that he's misunderstood the rules, and thinks that unarmed enemies without IUS also get an attack of opportunity when you're trying to punch them without IUS, which isn't the case, as you know. To try and explaing why I think this is what he meant, I quote: Taking out attacks of opportunity would help, except that one of the party members happens to be a monk with combat reflexes. He soundly trounces anyone who comes up against him unarmed and untrained in the ways of fighting, which is as it should be. Still, the system of four or six characters going head to head with unarmed and improvised weapon attacks provoking an AoO everytime they sneeze seems a headache. Emphasis mine. Saying "which is as it should be" makes me think that he feels that the monk should beat the daylights out of ordinary untrained jocks. I thought this was what the monk was made for, do you not? "Provoking an AoO everytime they sneeze", then, makes me feel that there is a whole lot of AoOing going on. Which, if none has IUS, shouldn't be happening, except for the monk getting off those couple of AoOs from combat reflexes(5 max, assuming no superhuman dex). Notice, he also said "four or six characters going head to head", which implies that the four or six were brawling against eachother. Surely the monk will not make AoOs against his friendlies? And if none of the others have IUS, the monk should be the only one making AoOs in the first place. Unless the monk is in the middle of all the brawlers and he has no friendlies in the group at all, he won't be making five AoOs a round.
Dash Branaghan 12-20-04, 07:02 PM	Dash, I wasn't really speaking of a rules perspective, more of a "thoughts about AoO" perspective. That is, I wasn't trying to interpret the rules, rather I was trying to interpret how the rules are trying to interpret real life. :) Ah, okay...I read it as an explanation of the mechanics...my bad. Dash
Dreaming_in_the_void 12-20-04, 07:12 PM	Drunk the monk! :pint: You might place restrictions on how far IUC and CR will go in this situation if the monk has been drinking (until he's immune to poisons of course, but even then if he's suppressing his immunity for a buzz, its fair to slap him with an inebriation circumstance penalty). Generally disallowing a character's hard earned (or chosen at low levels) feats and abilities is bad form. But, beating the snot out of absolutely everyone before the whole crew has gotten a lick in is bad form as well. When you're at the bar, share the free peanuts; just have the party tell the monk to give them a turn or two before letting loose with the occidentals-make-good-soup-fu, or hold the party's enemies for easy shots... give him a chance to show off his grappling ability.
olshanski_home 12-20-04, 07:30 PM	The monk shoudn't trounce everyone at a bar fight. How much bar fighting is throwing punches and not grappling? The monk is clearly the toughest opponent, so everyone should simply try to dog pile on the monk... surround him, then go for the grapple (gaining +2 on the touch attempt for flanking)... The monk will probably still come out on top, but frankly, thats what the monk is made for: Excelling in combat in situations where people have no armor and no weapons. Its like saying "in every combat, the fighter is swinging his sword and the mage is casting spells.... How do I make it more exciting by stopping the fighter from using weapons and stopping the wizard from casting spells?"... the unarmed combat is the monk's bread and butter. If your monk is cleaning up so many bar fights that it becomes boring... then consider the possibility that you probably have too many bar fights in the game. If your common people are all level 1... perhaps a few could be a "bar bouncers"... human warrior1, Dex 13, feats Improved Unarmed Combat and Improved Grapple? How about another monk in the bar?
e-z0r 12-20-04, 07:41 PM	Well, if, for example, you watch Ultimate fighting (You know, the martial arts competition style where you put experts from different martial arts styles in no-rules combat (well, there ARE rules like no damage to the crotch area, no fishhooking, eye-gouging, but generally, you can kick and punch and maim and choke all you want, unless the ref deems the other one is too done for to be able to tap out if he can't take it anymore) against eachother), you'll notice that at least 90% of all the matches end up on the ground, grappling. Whether it's boxing against karate or savate against greco-roman wrestling or white tiger kenpo kungfu against whatever it invariably ends down on the mat. That's why usually the better grapplers win. :)
Dreaming_in_the_void 12-20-04, 07:51 PM	Fish-tailing? What's that?
e-z0r 12-20-04, 08:05 PM	Fish-tailing? What's that? I believe it's putting your fingers in someone's mouth and pulling the flesh of their cheek. Although I'm not really that sure, now that you ask. :) I'll google it up. I might have the complete wrong word though. EDIT: Yeah I definately did. I dunno how fishtailing came to me, guess I just didn't pay attention to what I was writing. It's fish-hooking, and if you don't know what that is, check out here: http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3941 Just scroll down to the parts about fish-hooking. It requires registration, though. Too bad. If anyone has a better source of info, do tell. EDIT again: http://www.bushido.org/~seicho/picz64.jpg
monkeymadman 12-20-04, 08:08 PM	i agree with olshanski. you could make your own house rules for bar fights, but there's no real reason to hose the monk. that's where the monk should really be showing his stuff! but then again, how many monks do you see in your local tavern? :thinks: :pint:
Dash Branaghan 12-20-04, 08:49 PM	i agree with olshanski. you could make your own house rules for bar fights, but there's no real reason to hose the monk. that's where the monk should really be showing his stuff! but then again, how many monks do you see in your local tavern? :thinks: :pint: After Judo on Thursday nights, most of us hit the local pub for some wings and brew. So, on Thursday nights, the answer to your question would be 12...:D Dash
ShadowDragon8685 12-20-04, 09:08 PM	Frankly... This is what the Monk was made for. To utterly clean house. Oh, and to clarify, I believe by the RAW that if you're using an improvised or untrained weapon, you incurr AOOs. So only those people with IUS or Weapon Proficiency: Broken Beer Bottle/Table Leg/Chair (read: The regulars,) should be incurring AOOs, including those who're swinging improvised. And really, the monk getting 5+ AOOs in a bar fight? That's as it should be. I mean, how many real monks can slide down an infinate cliff and go unharmed, or can speak to everyone without fail? In a bar-room brawl with that many AOOs going on, I'd describe it as a bullet-time brawl like those from The Matrix.
tackleberry 12-21-04, 09:20 AM	I would just consider the regulars in the bar who are used to the bar fight to have Improved Unarmed Strike. Some of them won't, and that will distinguish the dangerous bar fighters from the rest of the rabble. Granted, if they are level 1 Commoners or level 1 Warriors, it shouldn't make much of a difference. Then you could always implement the honor of the bar fight concept. No probably know that, but a bar brawl doesn't revolve around killing people, it revolves around non-lethal damage. The minute someone does lethal damage or takes an AoO, they are attacked with real weapons. Just some thoughts.one takes AoO within the bar (maybe post a sign saying as much above the bar..."No Kicking a Man When He Is Down"), and anytime someone does, they rouse the ire of the entire bar (which leads to swarming/bull rushing tactics). Alternatively, the minute someone is hit with an AoO, they draw a weapon and make it real combat. Yes, the monk is a superior fighter, yes they Dash this is fantastic - i see aoo as rather dirty fighting like kicking in the gonads and such like. taking cheap shots at someone like kicking them when they are down and stamping on heads and stuff (except for the martial artist monk who would be performing some nifty jumping kicks and spinning about the battle grid like jackie chan!) this sort of fighting would deffinately rouse the ire of the bar regulars! irl i have been in plenty of clubs and pubs where someone will take a cheap shot like this and end up getting 'bullrushed' by the victims mates! i have had a thought though now that i consider this - if the same imagining is employed when in normal melee i.e. the same sort of tactics being used taking cheap shots and 'attacks of opportunity' to take down the opponent at 'any cost' like a cheeky jab as they run past or whilst they load their crossbow etc, surely the paladin (or samurai) or other 'noble' character would opt against using aoo's? just a thought...
tackleberry 12-21-04, 09:33 AM	After Judo on Thursday nights, most of us hit the local pub for some wings and brew. So, on Thursday nights, the answer to your question would be 12...:D Dash lmao after my saturday karate classes we also hit the pub for an afternoon tipple - even sensei. the landlord is always pleased to see us!