Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pyritefoolsgold 08-17-05, 05:07 PM	People always try to get the paladin to violate their good alignment. However, none of the situations many people describe really put a paladin at odds with himself, or more specifically, the good side of him with the lawful side of him. Consider this situation: A paladin is travelling with a small company of 50 experienced soldiers (all level 1 or 2 fighters.) He is part of the army himself, and has been placed at the command of the Captain of this squad. The company has been fleeing a rather large army of hobgoblins who are bent on sweeping humans out of a region. The company arrives at a town on the border of that region, with it's back up against a massive mountain range. Scouting shows that the hobgoblins have guarded all of the passes but one, which is a rock wall 20 feet up that the soldiers could easily climb up. However, the town is directly in the path of the incoming Hobgoblin force. The Captain descides not to sacrifice any more men in clearing one of the passes so that the town can be evacuated, and so will take the 20' cliff, knowing that it would be impossible to get women, children, old men, and virtually anyone who isn't perfectly fit up it. The town has absolutely no chance of standing against the Hobgoblin horde. Every man, woman, and child will be put to the sword, though some will be tortured first. The Paladin believes that he can arm the men of the village with the few weapons the local blacksmith has, plus any family heirlooms, plus what they can pick up from killed hobgoblins, and he can convince a few of the soldiers to assist him. With this force he can clear one of the passes wide enough to allow an evacuation. However, to do so would be considered mutiny against his commanding officer. Let's take it one step further and say that the high priest of his church has placed him under this Captain's command. The town contains 300 people, 40 of which are men and women fit to do combat. The rest are too young, too old, injured, or just lacking the ability to fight. To further complications, any of the soldiers he convinces to help him will also be convicted of mutiny and possibly hanged. What does he do? What does he do?
Dragonspirit 08-17-05, 05:29 PM	A quality dilemna. Good job. My answer would be that the Paladin obeys orders because of one thing: faith. That is a cornerstone of the Paladin ideology, and so long as he isn't shown corruption on the part of the commander or the priest who assigned him this duty, he must be willing to follow the chain of command and have faith that this is a sacrifice for the greater good. After all, it's quite possible those soldiers are needed in the divine chess game to save 10,000 villagers just over that hill. He would be remiss to assume he has a greater foresight than his deity, or the establishment of said deity. Of course, one might argue a better hero might shirk authority anyway and ensure the greater good himself. Then again, one might then realize that Chaotic Good is the ultimate "hero" alignment, not Lawful Good. :)
MoogleEmpMog 08-17-05, 05:33 PM	Take a level of Shadowbane Inquisitor. ;) Seriously, though, under these circumstances, the paladin has several options, and if I were playing him, I'd try them in this order: 1. Convince the captain to take a different tactic. The plight of the town obviously won't sway the captain, I need to take a different tactic. The smart paladins (that is, the ones who don't end up on some hobgoblin fighter's pike before reaching 2nd level) know how to deal with non-paladins: make doing the right thing the most appealing choice. Takes a bit of carrot and a bit of stick. I'd point out to the captain that the hobgoblins probably have a reason for leaving one pass open. They presumably know the local terrain better than the company. Why not close off all the passess and slaughter the company to the last man? Hobbies are at least as smart and tactically astute as humans, and extremely brutal. No, they must have a reason. (OOC, I'd toss in an aside that their reason is presumably not "to make any paladins with that company of soldiers fall from grace." ;) ) Perhaps the pass leads right by the lair of a dragon? Does the captain really want to lead his men to that certain death when a relatively simple breakthrough attack against a pass - say, with a small group of paladin-led volunteers - provides a guaranteed safe exit for the company and the villagers. 2. Find A Way To Get the Villagers Through the Pass With (insert LG god of the campaign) - and fifty able-bodied soldiers - all things are possible! I'm surprised the company can't take the villagers with them through the pass, assuming they can actually scale it themselves. If I can't persuade the captain to break through an easier road, I'll try to persuade him to take the villagers with us instead. Some may die in the difficult crossing; all will die if we abandon them. What exactly prevents a company of resourceful, strong and hardy soldiers, supplied by the desperate villagers, from clearing a path and escorting the weak and infirm to safety - where, I might point out, they'll lend additional voices to any requests we make for reinforcements against the hobgoblin menace. 3. Take Command If the captain refuses both my perfectly reasonable plans, I know he's not doing it for any good reason! Clearly, he's either too stubborn, too cowardly or too wicked to risk even a little for these innocent people! I'll not serve under such a wastrel. In fact, if I, a sworn paladin, am serving in this army, I assume it owes allegiance to a basically LG ruler. As such, my superiors will understand why I have to take extreme measures. I challenge the captain to a duel. If I defeat him - I'd rather not kill him, but by (insert LG god here), I will if that's what it comes to! - I'll assume command of the company and execute my first plan. If I die - I won't stop unless he slays me! - , perhaps my sacrifice will persuade him of the rightness of my words.
gerald_toronto 08-17-05, 06:19 PM	A whole wack of really good stuff.Very nice. You can be a paladin in my campaign any day of the week.
Lord Ian Stark 08-17-05, 09:53 PM	If the climb is only 20 feet up, then why don't they use ladders or make shift ladders to help the people up it? That way they wouldn't leave anyone behind. Ladders exist in your game world, don't they? ;) Depending on what God the Paladin and the and the High Priest worship, I doubt cowering by "The Captain descides not to sacrifice any more men in clearing one of the passes so that the town can be evacuated" and sacrificing many innocents so trained military personel (Who's mission is to defend the civilians and destroy enemies of our nation) don't get killed is not a morally correct decision. If I was said paladin I would tell the captain that I am releaving him of his command as his cowardness and lack of duty to the civilians in his lands has made him impudent for being in charge. The soldiers could pick a side and I would go about arming the townsfolk so that we can break through one of the passes defences. (This is all if ladders hadn't been invented yet. :rolleyes: ) If I get home and become excommunicated and a fallen paladin then so be it. I know I did the right thing by saving as many of the townsfolk I could.
Melpomene 08-17-05, 11:16 PM	Admitidly, I'm not as good as some Exalted paladin, but here's what I'd do: Bite the bullet. You are on a misison, you are under orders. The plight of the villiage is not your concern. You are fighting in the war, not battle for battle. Of course, there would be repentance, praying for forgiveness and guidance, praying for the souls and lives of those in the path. There might also be inquiries into the commander and the intention of the particular unit. However, in the end, it is the duty of the Paladin to obay.
Giarc 08-17-05, 11:45 PM	Mutiny against a bad leader to save a village would be a CG thing to do. Following the orders of a "legitimate authority figure" would, at the worst, be a LN act. If you count the steps, the former is 2 steps away from LG. The latter only one. The paladin would regret not helping those villagers, but would IMO follow orders. Not to say he wouldn't try to change the captain's mind, though.
Talanall 08-17-05, 11:47 PM	First, I'll echo what Lord Ian Stark pointed out: a 20 foot cliff is NOT much of a barrier. Get two able-bodied men to the top, and lower a rope ladder. Then lower a safety rope for the less-able-bodied to fasten around their waists, which the able-bodied men will hold. Instant evacuation. Second, the paladin's code does not require that he/she obey orders. There's not a blessed word in there about obedience. It calls for the paladin to respect legitimate authority. That's not the same thing. If the captain issues orders to a paladin calling for the paladin to leave innocent people to die, he is stepping outside of the bounds of his legitimate authority. Beyond that, if the paladin incites a mutiny amongst some soldiers, prompting them to disobey orders so that they can help him rescue innocents, he's still not disrespecting legitimate authority. He's respecting a different authority, but one which is still very legitimate: the authority of his code. The code is very clear: "[A] paladin's code requires that she [. . .] help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who threaten innocents." You can't get any clearer than that. The paladin is obeying the Lawful side of his or her alignment by following the Paladin's Code. The townsfolk are in need. They are innocents. They are being threatened. In the strictest sense of the Code, the paladin is obligated to help them. Disobeying the captain's orders and inciting his troops to do likewise is chaotic only in the sense that it violates secular/military law. It is lawful in a much deeper sense, because it is congruent with the Code. Disobedience, in this situation, is not disrespect of legitimate authority in general. It is strong disagreement with the decision made by one representative of "legitimate authority," and it rises from the paladin's obedience to a different "legitimate authority." Moreover, even if it were disrespectful of the paladin to disobey, it is a single action. A single action is NOT grounds for alignment shift. A paladin is NOT bound to act lawfully all of the time. A paladin is bound to maintain LG alignment. The paladin only loses paladinhood when he ceases to be LG, or when he grossly violates the Code. The Code says: 1) respect authority, 2) act with honor, 3) help those in need, and 4) protect the innocent. Three out of four points in the code are being fulfilled by this action; this is not a gross violation of the Code. It is a violation of the letter of the Code, but it fulfills the spirit of the Code in every way. It's what a paladin SHOULD do. In other words, this is a lousy trap for the paladin.
a_psh 08-17-05, 11:54 PM	As for the soldiers under your command suffering... do the right thing. If the mission is done and you return home and your commanders are displeased, take all of the blame on yourself. Tell them that you took the onus, the burden, the responsibility, and that, for good of for ill, these men who followed you and served bravely don't deserve to be punished for any error on your part. But letting the town die when there's a chance to save everyone is unacceptable.
Melpomene 08-17-05, 11:56 PM	There is no saying where they're going. There is a destination at hand which requires able bodied men. There are very likely other lives in the balance and speed, numbers, or both are called for. For the sake of arguement, too, one might assume that the commander of a unit of veterans isn't completely incompitant. Whatever thier plan is, it does not involve the village, but is not necesarily any less important. The commander is leading the unit for a reason, and it requires the unit to have some faith in him. Lastly, if every unit disbanded command structure just to go off and help anyone they wanted, there would be no point in military structure at all. Just because you might disagree with a commander isn't a reason to disband. It would be vary chaotic to just pack up and leave.
MoogleEmpMog 08-18-05, 12:29 AM	Keep in mind, I'm no paladin, nor are most of my characters. My character is far more likely to be the pragmatic LN captain of the company than the LG paladin inexplicably assigned to his unit. However, under the circumstances laid out by the OP, this is not a case of greater and lesser goods (or evils). We know quite a bit about the situation. The unit isn't being reassigned to a critical front - it's withdrawing before a superior force of hobgoblins. The captain isn't not choosing the difficult path because it's the fastest road to a critical front, or even away from the hobgoblins. He's choosing it because he doesn't want to lose troops taking a defended pass. The paladin is part of the army, but he's been assigned to this unit by the high priest. Unless this is the army of a LG theocracy (which is unlikely to be pragmatic about such matters), the paladin is presumably some sort of political officer - a church-appointed commissar, if you will. I'm guessing the high priest didn't tell the paladin why he's with this particular group of soldiers. Perhaps because the captain isn't considered trustworthy? The paladin doesn't know, but after this incident, he could certainly suspect. The paladin inciting mutiny in the ranks would be chaotic. The paladin challenging the captain's leadership is perfectly legitimate under the circumstances. In an army of the sort this seems to be, an established professional army, junior officers do sometimes relieve their superiors of command when they become unfit. By any paladin's standards, the captain has clearly become unfit. The captain commanded his men to flee the field of battle - okay, overwhelming force, and while a lone paladin might stand fearlessly against the tide of evil, he doesn't expect ordinary folk to do so. The captain apparently fears chancing the passes - okay, perhaps, if it's just to save the lives of his men, but it does seem to smack of cowardice when the paladin believes he can force the pass with himself, a handful of soldiers and a mob of civilians. The captain is willing to sacrifice the country's own civilians to escape - totally unacceptable. Even giving this guy a chance to change his mind shows the rare restraint necessary for a successful paladin. In a true medieval-style army, the paladin would be an independent knight or minor baron with the implied authority to split off his own men-at-arms and do as he wishes with them, as barons routinely did with far less provocation. A knight templar or other fighting churchman (the closest equivalent to a paladin in medieval Europe) would have no compunctions about doing so if the principles or policies of the Church were violated. All ethics and morals and codes aside, the captain is behaving in a panicky manner. Ignore the villagers entirely. Hobgoblins are smarter, more thorough and a heck of a lot nastier than humans, yet the captain is doing exactly what they want. That pass is a deathtrap. Any fool (any fool with military experience and knowledge of the hobgoblin mind, anyway) can see that the hobbies want the company to take this seeminglt open pass. If they haven't defended the passes strong enough to withstand assault, a sane commander would launch his men against the weakest of those passes and push through. And he'd take the civvies with him, because they likely hate the hobbies and will gladly take point if they just get a few spare swords to swing. If any survive, well - there's the first recruits to restock the company, eh? :smirk:
pres_man 08-18-05, 01:35 AM	Watch the movie King Arthur that came out a couple of years ago. It had a pretty similiar situation. You'll see how it was decided.
Giarc 08-18-05, 03:06 AM	In other words, this is a lousy trap for the paladin. I agree, there should be a section in the PHB's paladin description that explains how the DM will eventually put you in a situation that will make you choose between your life and your code.
Earthcrosser599 08-18-05, 03:27 AM	I agree, there should be a section in the PHB's paladin description that explains how the DM will eventually put you in a situation that will make you choose between your life and your code. And thus you find out just how valiant the paladin is lol But in all seriousness, a PC that is almost certainly going to die because of a situation the DM threw at him which he couldn't just ignore calls for either divine intervention or a new DM.
Talanall 08-18-05, 03:54 AM	I agree, there should be a section in the PHB's paladin description that explains how the DM will eventually put you in a situation that will make you choose between your life and your code. For the paladin, the code IS life. You don't follow it; you live it. Quite aside from that, a well-played paladin will never fall or become an ex-paladin because of a direct attack on his or her paladinhood. Making a paladin fall is best accomplished by indirect means. Corrupt his wife. Corrupt his boyhood friend. Make the paladin choose one of two innocents to save, and make sure she knows what happens to the one she didn't save. Paladins care about those close to them, you see--much more than they care for themselves. You don't destroy a paladin by playing stupid games where she has to choose between being a paladin or letting something bad happen. You destroy a paladin by letting her BE a paladin, but in a world where no matter how hard she tries and no matter what she does, she knows that innocent people will suffer. You make it clear to the paladin that her choices don't matter. You don't have to stop her from saving innocents; let her save as many innocents as she can, as long as she doesn't save enough to be satisfied with what she's already done. And then, if you've been a VERY BAD little pit fiend, the paladin will come to you, and make the one choice that does matter, and you'll have recruited your first blackguard.
Sjay1 08-18-05, 07:44 AM	wow..thats an impressive post up here..
anders 08-18-05, 08:12 AM	well, I just have to say that i totally agree with MoogleEmpMog. Two well written posts that is just awsome.
Lord Ian Stark 08-18-05, 08:46 AM	Talanall and MoogleEmpMog explained this very well. They explained it straightforth and unerringly. If you as the DM thought what I did was wrong and stripped me of my Paladinhood until I attoned then so be it. I would be glad in the knowledge that I did the right decision of giving the townsfolk a chance to fight for there lives instead of being slautered due to a cowering captain that cared only for his life and not those he swore to protect. Why does the OP on these topics rarely intervene after they post there little "dilemma." If this was to be a troll I say we have thoroughly squashed him. ;)
jasper 08-18-05, 09:18 AM	twenty foot cliff or 200 any no problem Squad 1 and 2 kill the enemy. 300 people. Mayor I need all the rope and ladders in town. The black smith, lumber jacks, carpenters. Squad 3 and 4 rear guard take what horses are necessary to scout the advancing army. Carpenters and lumber jacks knock together block and tackle. Stealling wood, nails, bed planks etc. Mayor I need the women sewing circle or women town council. Head women, orgaize the women and children into groups with evac buddies. Grab all the warm clothing and back packs. load everyone with light loads even if just a round of cheese and water bottle. First evac ropes down the cliff being secured by squad 1 and haul up a group of men to set up the block and tackles and rope relays. Second evac mix of braver children, old women, and calmers. Repeat until town is empty. In under a day we out.
Dragonspirit 08-18-05, 11:31 AM	I hate when people challenge the premise of the question to avoid answering the theorhetical. That's not clever, it's evasive. The specifics of how high the pass is isn't relevent. He's trying to make the point that evacuating the town will cost them their mission as they are on a time deadline.
jasper 08-18-05, 11:50 AM	NO it is clever. No mention of hard dead line. Just that the cliff is the path not being guarded. The Paladin just has to ask the commander to be rear guard and organized an evac. And try to evac as many as possible and pray for the ones left behind and eaten. In other words the dm thinks this is no win situation and I saw the logic hole and drove a Mac truck thru. I can't be impossible for 1st fighters to climb 20 feet up without some of towns folks being able to make the climb. This is no brainer. Now if the poster said it would take two days to evac by the cliff and half a day to evac by the pass and the monsters are a day away then you get the start of debate. Unless the paladin is like the Knights of Solomain (sp) from dragon lance. And he has to ignore orders to evac, he would ignore orders and pay the secular and paladin order price later.
DarknessEternal 08-18-05, 01:16 PM	There's no violation of a paladin's code to be pragmatic. His duty here was to save as many of the villager's as possible. There's no way to save them all. Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. There is no conflict in this situation. The paladin must obey the legitimate authority. If it is the decision of that legitimate authority that some of the villagers must die so the rest may live, it is not the paladin's place to dispute that. If he can come up with some other plan to save more people with the permition of said authority, more power to him, but it isn't a violation of his code to do follow orders in this scenario. Allowing harm to come to an innocent is not against the paladin's code. There's only so much one person can do. If you don't believe this the case, then there are never any paladin's in your mind; harm is coming to some innocent somewhere in the world and the paladins are doing nothing about it.
Gedrin 08-18-05, 01:54 PM	IMC, this is actually a pretty easy one to answer. The general belief among the goodly faiths is that codes, rules, and laws are there to serve the Good, not on equal footing. To answer the theoretical: The paladin makes a heartfelt request to his CO and asks for a few men, volounteers, to help the town. If the CO refuses, the Pally resigns his post in the army, faces whatever discipline the army will offer at a later date, and then head on to the town. There he marshals the forces of the town, and leads them to the safety of the army's main camp. Conveniently, 300 worshipful villagers do a great deal to soften the punishment the army might wish to give the Paladin. Particularly if several of them are now volunteering for the campaign to retake their homelands. Of course, there are fiew armies in my game world that Paladins would serve within, as soldiers. Within those armies, the Paladin would be fine, and the CO would likely be reassigned to a rear area for abandoning a civilian population. After all, the strong are to defend the weak...that's a soldier's job, in those armies. To the rest: Of course, I'm usually a big fan of "Option C". Often there is a way to get between the orders and still rescue the civies. I think the biggest resource overlooked in this situations is the 300 1st Level Commoners under the leadership of a CHA 18 Paladin. There's a lot that can be done with 300 people who are motivated by a righteous cause and fear for their lives.
Pyritefoolsgold 08-18-05, 03:55 PM	The orcs are coming, so no there is not enough time to make rope ladders and pulleys and so on. Only the fittest among the villagers would be able to get out in time, and the rest would be left. If most of the town is going to be unable to evacuate, then the men are going to stay to try and defend their wives and children. The end line is that the captain has already taken serious losses, and simply is not willing to risk any more of his men than he has to. He wants to get up that pass and to safety without any dilly-dallying about rope ladders and pulleys. Also, I personally would not make a paladin fall, no matter his choice in this matter. The idea is to make him question his lawful alignment, not to make him abandon it. This situation would truly show whether the paladin valued order or compassion more. Also, I've noticed that most of the posters say something along the lines of "That's an easy question" or "It's obvious what he has to do" and then give completely different answers. About half of the posters on this thread say that the paladin has to obey orders, and the other half say that he has to either leave the army and help the villagers, or simply take over command of the squad. I personally would see this not as a trap, but as an opportunity for the paladin to be a hero. I see in my head the paladin giving a rousing speech, mustering the villagers and a few soldiers, and launching an assault on the best pass, valiantly leading the people to safety, even as the orcs begin to dog their heels. I see him hanging behind to delay the hobgoblins for a percious minute while the people make it to a local fortress, and then I see him returning to answer for his disobediance, and a huge number of the townsfolk showing up uninvited to testify for him.
pres_man 08-18-05, 05:54 PM	I don't see a paladin who tells an officer, who he is temporarily under the command of, that he must stay to aid the villagers as not respecting legitmate authority. Most likely the officer's task is also necessary to safe guard lives, probably has information that will aid the cause and his troops can be used in a larger force later and be more successful. No, a paladin that told the officer that the whole army must stay here and not leave the villagers and then tried to turn the army against the officer, now that would be not respecting authority. Most likely the paladin has proven himself as a valuable fighter to the officer. The officer might not agree with his choice to stay, but would probably respect it. Also since probably some of the army are wounded, he would probably leave them with the paladin, seeing how the climb is so incredibily difficult. Also since armor and equipment would hinder the ability of the climbers, much of that would probably have to be left behind, and that could be used by the villagers. Certainly the army would rather the villagers use it to fight with then just leave it for the hobgoblins to claim. Also any mounts would have to be left behind, and these could aid the paladin and the villagers. Really, the most logical course would be to allow the paladin to stay with the villagers and to give them equipment, arms, and mounts to aid in their attempt to break through. If the officer forced the paladin to leave, either through moral pressure or physical force, it would just turn the paladin from being an ally of the officer. Besides, how does the paladin not know that the whole reason he was sent along with this officer wasn't to come to this place at this time and do what paladins do. Attempt to save as many lives as possible. There is nothing wrong with leading innocents into a desperate struggle and having some of them die, but to leave them to their fate. That would leave most LG characters, let alone a paladin, with a bitter taste in their mouth. I guess it comes down to, is "the greater good" ever a legitmate position for a paladin to take in your campaign. Can a paladin voluntarily sacrifice innocents to save lives? Do you play a heroic fantasy game, or a fantasy game with heroes? In the end, it comes down to what the DM and the players agree on for what it means to be good, honorable, decent, fearless, and moral.
Lord Ian Stark 08-18-05, 06:06 PM	Two things. Two story ladders would be all over town. No building of anything. Just carry them over to the cliff face and viola. And as far as how half the posts say he would have to listen to his command and the other say he has to save the town, guess what? Who is in charge of a Paladin more? His commanding officer or his deity? (And this Paladin has a deity so I don't want to hear about the RAW stating the Paladin doesn't need one) Respecting authority as a Paladin has to does not mean blindly obeying those orders given. If someone gives an order that will conflict with his code, guess what? The code and the will of his deity come first. Again I know not what God he follows but I bet the Dogma of said God was not to "run from thy enemy and allow any innocents along the way to be slaughtered so that you can live." :rolleyes: You say you would not punish the Paladin for either choice. However one decision "grossly" violates his code and the other as someone posted only violates a part. The selfish act of letting innocents get slaughtered so he can save his own skin is going to make him a fallen Paladin. Not listeneing to an unjust order doesn't "grossly" violate his code but as DM you can make him attone nonetheless. I hate when people challenge the premise of the question to avoid answering the theorhetical. That's not clever, it's evasive. LOL, how long have you DMed for peeps? If you think your party won't quickly look for a "smart" way out of a dilemma you created then I would say you are very wrong. You could spend a week on a clever situation that you can't wait to see how the party will overcome it, and all of a sudden someone whips out a passwall spell or something you didn't think of and then you're left stumped. One aspect of this game is problem solving. Hoisting a ladder to a 20' cliff is better than making a decision that will cost lives either way you go. Why wouldn't you just bring the ladder over? Part of a dilemma is putting them in one without a quick way out. Or else it's not a dilemma to begin with. ;)
kliate 08-18-05, 06:37 PM	Its time to play a trick on those hobgoblins. Request of the captain that you, and ten volunteers rush the pass. This leaves 40 good soldiers to guard the town. Have the town's three fastest runners and all carrier pigeons race to the next outpost or keep to petition the lord there for reinforcements; once the reinforcements arrive, the Captain and 40 remaining soldiers are to reinforce the Paladin and crew in their attack on the pass. If a billow of blue smoke rises from within the hobgoblin land, that will signal the captain and his men to charge. Black smoke will warn them of impending doom, and indicates that they had best reinforce the town. What could go wrong? Well, the Hobgoblins may well have had their eye on the other location. If this is the case, reducing it to a skeletal defense force is going to have dire consequences. Guards within that keep may need to pull triple-shifts on full alert to defend it. If the Hobgoblins have spies or assassins already infiltrating the land, they may manage to poison the pigeons and incapacitate the runners as soon as they're out of sight. It's not a perfect plan, but it's one crafted to resolve the problem. The Paladin obeys orders, the town is defended, and the hobgoblins will soon meet their demise if the paladin has any say in it. Now, if the captain refuses we have another matter. Clearly the captain is not thinking of the lives of innocents; but rather than countermanding his order the Paladin could use whatever chance he has to convince the people of the town to evacuate. If they then choose to die defending their land, then it's their choice to meet with honourable (if foolish) death; and the Paladin's responsibility to soften up the goblin army to as great a degree as possible.
Aliquid 08-18-05, 06:56 PM	Respecting authority as a Paladin has to does not mean blindly obeying those orders given. If someone gives an order that will conflict with his code, guess what? The code and the will of his deity come first. Again I know not what God he follows but I bet the Dogma of said God was not to "run from thy enemy and allow any innocents along the way to be slaughtered so that you can live." :rolleyes:Sure, the code of his deity may come first for him... but he is actually enrolled in the army, and during times of war, mutiny is a serious crime. Even if he believes he did the right thing, the military leaders will still put him in chains for refusing to follow orders. Furthermore, this isn't some run of the mill "authority" figure like the mayor of a town. This is his commanding officer. When he joined the army, and got the rank of "Captain", he likely had to make some sort of pledge to fight for the King, and obey the rules that the military places upon him. So, to go against his commanding officer is equivalent to breaking an oath, and that's not something a Paladin does. I'm not saying that it is worse that letting innocents die, but I do think you are taking that "Lawful" side of this dilemma too lightly. You could spend a week on a clever situation that you can't wait to see how the party will overcome it, and all of a sudden someone whips out a passwall spell or something you didn't think of and then you're left stumped.Don't I know that story... drives me crazy when I have a complicated dilemma designed for the players, and I expect it to take them a whole game session to work out, and then someone comes up with a crafty 5-minute solution. If you aren't ready for your players to out-smart you... then you are typically left with two bad choices. 1) make things up off the top of your head for the rest of the session 2) railroad them into doing your original plan.
pres_man 08-18-05, 07:57 PM	Sure, the code of his deity may come first for him... but he is actually enrolled in the army, and during times of war, mutiny is a serious crime. Even if he believes he did the right thing, the military leaders will still put him in chains for refusing to follow orders. How are they going to take him any where in chains? They can't lift a child up a clift, how are they going to take the paladin in chains up? See, the whole expediency goes against any thing like this. Now probably the office might make the paladin swear to that if he lives through the attack on the pass, that he must come to the king and submit himself for whatever punishment the king deems he deserves. Now if the paladin didn't do that, then sure that would definitely be a serious issue with losing his abilities. Most soldiers are punished for avoiding combat, not taking on pseudo-suicide missions to save innocent lives. Most likely the paladin staying behind would be a death sentence, the officer couldn't really offer much worse to him.
Sorbeth 08-18-05, 08:11 PM	You could make a few modifications to the scenario that make it less easy to get around and still leave the question of whether the paladin will commit a CG act by defying orders and saving the villagers, or if the paladin will commit a LN act and obey orders leaving the villagers to their fate. One thing would probably be to have the town outside of the group's path; however, an outrider spotted the town and its situation. The group will have to go a bit out of its way to reach the town if they are to help. The village could be a smaller version of a free-city and not a part of the army's kingdom, and therefore not their responsibility. If they take the time, and lose the lives, to help the village, they may well not have the forces or sufficient time to reach the location they need to be. The village could be as above only part of a separate, and enemy, kingdom/nation. In fact... army members of the paladin's kingdom taking military action on the other kingdom's territory could be labeled an act of war.... (Alternatively, the valiant defense waged by a rebellious paladin saving the village could unite the two nations against the vile hobgoblin forces...) The village could be independent or enemy as above, but instead of the hobgoblin forces preparing to attack the town has already been taken. The villagers are being held captive or put to the sword as the group tries to make up their mind, but if they attack it will be costly. Any other ideas to improve the scenario?
Maniacal_Cackle 08-18-05, 08:22 PM	I do not believe anyone has mentioned this, apologies if someone has and I somehow skipped it... Anywho, I too, think the solution is obvious. If I was the paladin, I would have my player try to talk to the DM about whether or not this was a "trap," and then do what I thought was best based on the rest of the happenings that campaign (perhaps this commander has personally held of a red dragon to save the life of a kobold or something, so he's worth following, even if he seems to be making an odd decision) and then talk to my DM if he took away my paladin powers.
Sorbeth 08-18-05, 08:56 PM	I don't think a situation like this should be set up to make a paladin fall. It should be a real role-playing opportunity. How does the paladin deal with the scenario? How do the other PCs? (As an aside, either way the poor emotionally wrent paladin has *kept* to half their alignment; in a 'the glass is half full' mentality) If I were to give the paladin in my group this kind of choice and then tell him "well too bad, your paladin has fallen.” it would be awful DMing and I'd be a crappy friend. I would quite reasonably pay for it when he got back behind the DM screen. Personally, I think a paladin should only loose their abilities and fall if the PC & player *choose* to go outside the bounds of paladin-hood [or their alignment is changed], and they should still get a 'stern talking to' by the paladin's deity before it becomes too late. This shouldn't happen just because the DM wants to take out all paladins. That ain't fun, that's being a bully. There has to be a certain amount of trust in a group that no one is going to kick their friend in the err kneecap like that.