Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bluewings 03-21-06, 01:32 AM	Im not speaking about a REALLY cheap DM here but more on a dm who want to have a easier time on controlling the advancement of the PC at the gaming table. However this raise a huge problem about item creation and spells with xp component such as the very useful permanency. we tried out losing temporary hit point that can only be healed by rest over a long period of time however this seem a little too easy to go over for such a good deal. I don't know how popular this Houserule can be elsewhere but it works quite well for us..exept for magic item creation and spell with xp cost. We also tought about permanent hit point lost until next level but...I'm sure you all see the many problem it cause: Metagamers and High cost Items (mages aren't reputed for high hp do they?)
bartleby42 03-21-06, 01:50 AM	I don't think it will work, but feel free to try. I've reached a new level of apathy. If a PC wants to be terribly overpowered fine. They will just realize how pointless combat has become. I don't make the monsters smarter or stronger, I just use the same ones and don't up the CR. PCs learn real quickly that being "Uber-l33t" lacks any real draw. What makes the game fun is a sense of danger. If you really wanted to reel them in, whenever they become "too strong" only throw really weak things against them. They will win without a single problem. After 12 fights without being touched the PCs are bound to get tierd of that buisness.
teclis 03-21-06, 01:58 AM	gee, the person above me isn't even trying anymore. my regular DM does this, he just wings it, and tells us when we level. players that die lose a level, but level up quicker, so it evens out, as for item creation and exp components, if you use them with any regularity, you just fall behind a level, and don't catch up, but you got some nifty stuff you made youself, so it balances out.
HerbalTea 03-21-06, 07:38 AM	won't work
Witch 03-21-06, 07:48 AM	Just have him say when everyone levels, and calculate how much xp that is. You could choose not to level, and make items with that xp. Keep adding the amount of xp the others get when they level. That way you find out what level you are yourself. However, this will mean youre lower level a longer time than normally.
Falke 03-21-06, 08:23 AM	Well, the way I do it is something like this: I calculate what xp they "deserve" based on CR's and stuff. Then I throw that paper into the bin of holding beside my desk (can hold any amount of paper as long as my gf empties it once in a while) Then I figure out how much they should get. The player(s) who are highest level get a little less than those who are behind. The reason I calculate xp the hard way first is that I want to not be totally off target. Also, roleplaying awards are 1% of a level if you are lowest level, 0.5% if highest level in party. I considered removing xp totally and just award levels once in a while, but decided against it for the reasons you put forward yourself.
celtredleg 03-21-06, 10:40 AM	I have played in a game with no xp that worked very well. We would be assigned quests to accomplish, and at the end we would level up. If it was very long, there might be a mid-point leveling. This was a very high level game when we started the no xp thing. By then, it was not xp that stoped item creation, but time. Most things we wanted would take so long that you would have to miss an adventure to make something. So nobody made anything.
oxybe 03-21-06, 10:56 AM	If a PC wants to be terribly overpowered fine. They will just realize how pointless combat has become. there is more ways to powergame then just combat buddy. a diplomacy mod in the hundreds, or a bluff in the 200's can just as easily ruin a game as a hulking hurler. (if not easier... unless you run a dungeon crawl with constant combat, a good majority of your game time will be socializing with npc's) ------------------------------------------------------------------- PC bluffmeister (check my sig) to an army of 20th level kobold sorcerers "What are you guys doing here... your hometown is being invaded... go help them!" kobolds : "gasp. you right! you right! us go now! thank you!" other pc's : "their town isn't being attacked, is it?" PC : "who cares? we beat this encounter... gimme XP and teh golds!" ------------------------------------------------------------------- unearthed arcana has a point system for creating magic items instead of XP that you can look at, it's something like 1pt=25xp... or something. it even allows for others to contribute their point totals to the pool to help out (it is basically the item XP reserve the artificier gets). you get X points to use each level, any unused pts are given up when you level. if you are given 600 pts at level 6 & use up 375 (you only have 225 left) of these pts. at level 7, your total resets itself to 700 (instead of gaining 700+remaining 225). since you are giving up XP completely, i would maybe recommend ruling that the points stack, if only because you don't have an XP blanket. hope this helps
wrecan 03-21-06, 11:28 AM	The answer: Fractional Levels. Just award players who show up 1/8 level, 1/4 level, or 1/2 level depending on how often you play (weekly, bi-monthly, monthly, respectively). For people who spend XP on Item Creation Feats, spells, and the like, have them keep track of that XP in a "Creation Account". When the XP in their bank equals the amount of XP they would have gotten that session, they get no XP for the session, can spend no further XP, and their account resets to zero. This way you only need look up the XP charts when the PC uses the Feat or spell. It really cuts down on XP calculations.
Sargon 03-21-06, 11:34 AM	won't work Does work, My DM would always just tell us when to level up, after all it was his game and he knew the CR and all that. The problem with making magic items and things is that it does have an EXP cost and with no exp you have to find another way to enchant items... I belive the unearthed arcana has rules for such a situation.... somewhere.
Witch 03-21-06, 11:46 AM	Probably, however, if you want to have a no-xp game, you should play another system. Exalted, for example is easier to manage in xp-ways, I believe. Not in anything else, but it might be in xp-ways, for the DM.
Clawhound 03-21-06, 11:52 AM	I used to level my players once every six games. That was a good ratio. Players got to spend time at their levels and learn their new abilities, but the next level wasn't too soon or too far off. I did this by awarding 1/5 a level per game session, since we usually had one messed up game session per six, we bumped up every three months. That worked quite well. This way, the players were far less worried about fighting monsters than adventuring. Discovering what a complex was for, and its history, was equally rewarding (in terms of XP) as defeating the monsters. In many ways, learning about the places was a harder task than defeating the monsters.
Solidcobra 03-21-06, 11:52 AM	A campaign with no XP can, and does, work, as long as you steer the PCs away from item creation feats. (or simply add more money cost. every XP costs 5 GP extra) It makes it easy for the DM to control the pace and level of the player characters, either levelling them just before or just after a major battle. The first gives them a sense of dread ("he needed us to be STRONGER?!"), the second gives them a sense of even sweeter victory ("say what? this loot AND we get a level? YAAAAHH!!") Don't listen to RAW loyalists or pessimists. It can work, and it saves the DM and the players a lot of bookkeeping.
jaspercrey 03-21-06, 12:14 PM	Going with a no xp system has been a godsend for myself and my players. Generally, our characters level-up when everyone agree's they are ready to level-up. When 5th level gets stale - poof - we are now 6th level. I strongly recommend this style of play especially when game balance is a priority. It works very well for me - and in the end it turns the individual session into co-operative outings rather than competative scenerios.
Rosisha 03-21-06, 12:36 PM	As to no xp games, that is all I run, and every one of my players has thanked me for it. They said it made the game more exciting, they weren't like "OMG we have to go hunt down those orcs if we want to level" they took a more flexible approach "OK, let those guys run, we won't have to deal with them." I even had the players so worried about the strength of the opposition that they found a non-combat solution that required sneaking past pretty much everything. It was great. My system: I assing a base value for each chapter of my adventures. For example, my favorite adventure I wrote involves an alchemist necromancer (makes undead through alchemy) and a small town the players have to defend. (this is a low level game). * The first chapter is figuring out what is going on, and rewards 1/6th complete. * The second chapter is scouting, intial defenses, 1/6th complete.. * Chapter six: finale, 1/6th complete and level. In my experience, and how I set up adventures, it is best to clearly define each step and keep track of the players progress. When they finish whatever you think deserves a level, then they get one. I find the system is a lot easier then CR and all that crap... and I can use any monster I want cause I can make them cunning and intelligent to mess with the PCs. When used properly kobolds can take down 20th level PCs (a la Dragon Mountain). Rosisha
Bluewings 03-21-06, 12:47 PM	Thanks for the unearthed arcana idea we hadn't tought about that but i think we will have to speak with the dm about the level-up pacing.......because it's0 a lot higher than 6 sessions: 1 level. but continue your suggestion it give great idea
tedopon 03-21-06, 04:16 PM	Like I said in the tagline, no xp will save you a whole lot of boring math calcutalations. The last THREE campaigns I've played in have dropped XP awards in favor of just declaring a level gain, and everyone at the table loves it. For about a minute and a half, we had a problem with the matter of xp dependent abilities, and decided to say that who cares, there's already enough math in the game and we're all lazy. The only argument that could be made against this is that it allows spellcasters a bit of a boost, but that doesn't bother anyone I play with, and from now on, every game I run will be like this. So what if you may take slightly longer to gain a level, or you don't get the joy of a slip of paper with a number scrawled on it at the end of the sesh; I play the game to escape this type of real life agonizing number management (I get plenty of that at my job). Throw away your calculator! (or put it in a drawer for when you might need it for something important) XP is a waste of time.
wabbit05 03-21-06, 04:56 PM	Works just fine, actually. In fact, it's all I run because (as has been said before) it saves on the hassle of adding up yet another thing, lets you control the pace of character advancement to stay level with your monsters more easily, and is generally much easier all around for everyone involved. I basically set a series of tasks that need to be accomplished (doesn't matter how--that's up to the PC's) and once they've been completed, the PC's gain a level. I run a low-magic, fast paced (i.e. no months of time to spend between adventures) campaign so item crafting rarely comes up. It has a few times, however, so all I require is very rare and expensive components if PC's want to craft a magic item; in other words, it costs gp rather than xp. Also, any crafting needs to take place in a focus of magical (arcane, natural, or divine depending on the character class) energy so it's not something you can do around a campfire. Of course, these components can vary widely depending on what they want to build (i.e. rare gems, metals, woods, etc.) and most are only found as treasure. Eh, YMMV using this system but it works for me and also lets me put interesting, rare and yet not overpowering items in treasure hordes.
Herr_Grinch88 03-21-06, 05:17 PM	I don't give XP until the very end of an adventure, then I pool in everything they earned so in their off-time they can spend extra XP like gold to create stuff (of course following the creation rules in the DM's Guide).
bartleby42 03-21-06, 05:30 PM	there is more ways to powergame then just combat buddy. a diplomacy mod in the hundreds, or a bluff in the 200's can just as easily ruin a game as a hulking hurler. (if not easier... unless you run a dungeon crawl with constant combat, a good majority of your game time will be socializing with npc's) ------------------------------------------------------------------- PC bluffmeister (check my sig) to an army of 20th level kobold sorcerers "What are you guys doing here... your hometown is being invaded... go help them!" kobolds : "gasp. you right! you right! us go now! thank you!" other pc's : "their town isn't being attacked, is it?" PC : "who cares? we beat this encounter... gimme XP and teh golds!" ------------------------------------------------------------------- That's my point. Yeah sure you win combat without fighting, or by having 700 attacks in one round and instantly you can solve any problem involing people by rolling dice. That is boring. One or two PCs might be happy with the never ending train of XP and Gold, with no real threat. Soon they will realize how boring it is and do one of two things 1. Stop combat alltogether and only focus on roleplaying. Using thier insane poweress as a last resort. 2. Stop being overpowerd. Trust me PCs balence themselves out pretty quickly, a few sessions like this end any sort of issue you might have. DM- So king Soandsuch has just signed a peace treaty with the mind flayers in order to fight off the dark hordes of Thisandthat. PCs - We go to talk to the dark hordes DM - Okay so there is about 30 tarresques there. PCs - Cool I kill 27 of them as my standard action and as my move action I convince them that to join our side DM - M'kay have a crapload of XP PCs - We then kill the Mind Flayers and convince the Elder brain to dress up like a little girl DM - Here is tons of treasure PCs - While were at it lets kill the king and then convince his wife that we really are the king. DM - Sure roll a bunch of dice and add ridiculious numbers to it PCs - *roll* that's 4 billion damage and a 2 million on our bluff check DM - Nifty you win. PCs - So what's up next DM - surroundnig kindoms surrender to you, all fear your might. PCs - What now? DM - A cat is stuck in a tree. PCs - Man, being invincible sucks.....
HMSHIELD 03-22-06, 11:48 AM	No XP can work. Anything can work as long as you and your players are having fun. I have had bad experience with XP :D players would always get jealous if another player got more and they will try and squeeze every red XP cent( I have had players that wirte down every little thing they have done worthy of XP(help that granny cross the road get XP) it became quite annoying. My advice is have party XP all the way have everything party XP that way they will work together as a team if they dont feel some player is pulling their slack then you can give lower party XP (and I tell you they will make that character pull their weight). As for item creation I say abolish the item creation XP cos I think it is a horrible system anyways isnt a wizard suppose to learn something of the ways of a mage by creating items not losing and that bunk about its ameasure of personal power you are putting into it thats alot of bunk how come you get xp for using a spell a good way and you train with the xp you got to learn to be a better mage only to lose it by doing a function that should make you a better mage?.(I am in favor of the 2nd edtion system where you gained XP for creating items) Instead have making magical items quests. Want to maKE A SWORD +1 well you have to obtain that mithral from the abandoned dwarven mine thats overun by goblins(and a fiery demon). Want to make a staff of magi? OOO...KKK but get ready for the adventure of a life time. This makes creating magic items and undertaking and think about all the adventure your players can have personal adventures(if the priest is going to make a nice magic 2 handed holy sword for the paladin the pladin is going to be pretty happy and see this as a holy quest and you start to set an epic scale for your players to talk about for a long time to come.
Cadfan 03-22-06, 01:16 PM	I don't use exp. I just declare when the players have leveled up. Players in my games do not miss sessions, so they all level up simultaneously. No one has any magic item creation feats, so that's also not a problem. No one has any urge to use spells that cost exp. I don't use experience to reward roleplaying, I use the results of the roleplaying itself. If I had players who wanted to create magic items, to use exp-cost spells, and who needed to be encouraged to show up at game sessions and roleplay, I'd use exp. But for my game, it is unnecessary.
bitnine 03-22-06, 02:35 PM	Another way to do this would be to use Action Points, and replace spells with signifigant XP components to require the use of an Action Point (or points).