A challenge for my party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A challenge for my party? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Paradisio
05-16-05, 02:04 AM Ok, here is the deal I have about 8 party members. Ranging from 3-6. Most of them are pretty average, but the warmage in the party deals tons of damage per round. And I already have trouble finding a challenge for them.

It seems if I put them against a lot of little things, they die before they get a second turn and don't do much, and a couple big things either kill the players in one-two hits or die really fast being the target of so many players.

Any advice?
Eliza_Stormwhisper
05-16-05, 02:24 AM Something not too tough, but with very good defenses against spells.
Colmarr
05-16-05, 03:40 AM My advice in these situations is to always combine lots of mooks with one or two dangerous opponents. The mooks set up Aid Another actions and flanking bonuses, and interfere with the party's ability to gang up on the really dangerous opponents.

This tactic is even more effective when it's not easy to identify who is or isn't a mook (such as with humanoid opponents wearing similar armour and wielding similar weapons).

You should also try to find effective combination for the bad guys. Rogues are all well and good, but they're even better with an ally to give them flanking. Wizards and Sorcerors cause havoc, but they won't last long without melee warriors to shelter behind...
Szat
05-16-05, 03:48 AM The Complete core classes are fairly balanced. They shouldn't be outshining your other PC's. Make sure that he's playing his charater legit. If he is then chalk it up to him/her playing thier character better than the others or simply better character creation.
Flushmaster
05-16-05, 04:11 AM If one "big" opponent is too easy to take down for the stronger characters but too stong for the weaker characters then try to find a happy medium. A pair or trio of generally tough opponents yet not overly strong against a single opponent. The warmage is probably ducking behind allies to cast their spells (that's what I did the one time I played a warmage) then tie up those allies (the melee combatants). Toss in a good ranged combatant (an archer or enemy spellcaster) to tie up the warmage. For more specific advice give us a roster of your party but until then I'll assume that the warmage is one of the strongest (and highest level) members of your party. Example encounter here:

3x lvl 3 or 4 barbarians and/or monks: these move in quickly to tie up the melee fighters.
-anybody in the front ranks gets attacked head on by these guys.

1 level 5/6 or 2 level 3/4 ranged combatants:
-these could be archers, or arcane spellcasters (wizard, sorceror, wu jen, warlock, or warmage); they support their melee fighters (targeting the party's front line) and/or go directly for the party's ranged support (specifically that warmage).

Maybe (if necessary) 1 or 2 lower (1-3) level stealthy dudes:
-they try to sneak behind the party or at least flank the front line with wneak/sudden attacks. Adds importance to supporting the front line. Trust me, I always play "rear echelon" chaaracters and they don't like it when the meat shileds go down. The warmage and any other "REMFs" (Rear Echelon Mother F*****s) will back up the front line first to save their own skins if they have brains.

You don't necessarily have to use character classes here. Some monsters have ranged attacks (be they normal or magical) and others have stealth abilities while some just like to brawl. Tie up the melee characters and still present a ranged threat that has sufficient ability to witstand at least one or two hits from the best ranged attacks the party has. An extra threat always mixes things up, be it from behind (directly at the ranged attackers) or an additional threat to the front line (threatens the rear echelon's security blanket).

Best advice I can offer right now.
Lidabmob
05-16-05, 04:16 AM 3rd-6th lvl drow. SR really messes up any spell caster :)
Flushmaster
05-16-05, 04:19 AM 3rd-6th lvl drow. SR really messes up any spell caster :)

Yeah, the SR means a 50/50 failure chance against a caster of equal level. An archer or wizard or two combined with some warriors/fighters and maybe a rogue or two can make things challenging. If drow fit into the adventure, of course (ie, underground).
Lidabmob
05-16-05, 04:36 AM yea if Drow don't work let me suggest Githyanki as they have SR too not quite as high as a drow but they are planar conquers so they could be nearly anywhere.

Also if you want 1 creature. Use a flesh golem as a big encounter. If you need to make it slightly damaged. But if your parties average lvl is 4 or 5 you should be set to use it. It'll just be a tough encounter and will allow others beside the Warmage shine as the only thing a warmage can do is slow it.
Szat
05-16-05, 05:50 AM Anti-magic Zones anyone?
Candar
05-16-05, 07:45 AM I ma right now DM'ing a large groups as well, and the party is a excellent mix of characters; a warlock, a hexblade, a fighter, a ninja and a cleric/wizard - all 6th level characters. I have the exact same problem - in most combat situations it is very difficult to challenge them without killed them, which of course is not the mission. What I have found so far work is very simple; for the comabt situations divide and conquer, I have also begun to use more traps and more roleplaying challenges - all in all, it has been a good experience, as the party has become better at working together and provide a tougher challenge - I have been forced to review my DM'ing, and as a result I like to think that I have become a better DM.

My initial reaction was to go after the party and try to bring them down a notch - but then I realized that I should not penalize the fact that they for once have a balanced partry that works well together. I have to admit though, that they do face some hefty creatures now in combat, easily two or three CR above their own. But as long as everybody is having fun.

In the end it is the basics that work, divide and conquer work every time, isolate the spellcasters - tie up the figther etc.
High Octane
05-16-05, 08:28 AM Ok, here is the deal I have about 8 party members. Ranging from 3-6. Most of them are pretty average, but the warmage in the party deals tons of damage per round. And I already have trouble finding a challenge for them.

Assassinate the warmage and dont allow warmages anymore.
Lidabmob
05-16-05, 09:25 AM Assassinate the warmage and dont allow warmages anymore.

Yes warmage is a very strong class. However I was playing in a game where the DM ruled that Warmages primary spell casting stat was INT. I felt so dirty after the 3rd session I had to stop playing.

Warlock can be just as bad. Nothing like a class that can deal out Eldritch blasts for over 2 days straight every round before it collapses.. Or better yet get him and item that will allow him to go without breathing then put him in a permant force bubble that he can move around and throw him in the middle of the next war... Watch everyones equipment start shattering... 48 hours x 60 mins x 10 rounds =28,800 castings of shattter before he passes out from exhaustion.
Paradisio
05-16-05, 05:09 PM Most of the campaign so far has taken place outdoors, although that might change next session. They just arrived back at the starting city in the campaign, only to find that they were wanted criminals, so they will probably have to go thru a sewer/catacombs system. Or if they are dumb, they could attack directly.

The party right now is:
-2 characters who are about to start over (level 3-4) They killed each over because the Wu Jen insisted on eating everything she killed, even humanoids and the paladin had a problem with that, and then they got attacked. Honestly I might kick them out, since they are hard core metagamers, don't roleplay their characters at all or very little, and are very immature in general. One of them was actually calculating the enemies HP.
-1-2 new characters (level 3) pretty sure one is going to be a bard, and he might bring his wife, unknown what she will be. Experienced player, can't wait for him to join.
-Level 6 War Mage
-Level 6 Fighter
-Level 6 Rogue
-Level 3 Ninja.... awakened monkey
-And a couple henchmen.
-Level 5 Barbarian

I might boost the starting level up to 4, I don't want them to get too far behind.

Honestly, I am still afraid to kill off my party members as well.
tiercel
05-16-05, 07:22 PM SR really messes up any spell caster :)

Not the warmage, if you allow the Orb spells as printed in Complete Arcane. They are broken, in the sense that they act exactly like an Evocation except they have been placed in the Conjuration school for the cheese effect of "SR: No."

If the Orbs have been fixed in your world to Evocations with "SR: Yes" then you have your defense. Otherwise SR won't do much to stop your warmage. Energy resistance won't do much either, since the warmage can resort to force effects or just dial up different energies until he finds one that works (or someone makes a Knowledge check and tells him).

My rule of thumb for any of the Complete X books is that any direct-damage "Conjuration" that does a chunk of energy or force damage all at once should be considered an Evocation and should have SR: Yes. Note that there are only a few Core Conjurations that deal damage, and they generally do their damage over time (melf's acid arrow, acid fog, etc.)

In general, defending against ranged touch attacks is hard. Unless you are a monk and/or have an insane Dex your touch AC is probably not very special. Probably the best defense here is miss chance: concealment from darkness and fog (natural or magical), blur, displacement, blink, entropic shield, and so on. Incorporeal can help, since even magical effects have a 50% miss chance, except that miss chance doesn't apply to force effects.
siege72
05-16-05, 07:33 PM Ok, here is the deal I have about 8 party members. Ranging from 3-6. Most of them are pretty average, but the warmage in the party deals tons of damage per round. And I already have trouble finding a challenge for them.

It seems if I put them against a lot of little things, they die before they get a second turn and don't do much, and a couple big things either kill the players in one-two hits or die really fast being the target of so many players.

Any advice?
Have archers prepare an action to shoot the warmage as soon as he starts casting a spell. Arterial Strike, Wounding weapons, and other sources of "continuous damage" will force a Concentration check for every spell. Golems are resistant to almost all spells. Constitution damaging or draining effects will lower the caster's Concentration check.
Dynneroth
05-16-05, 07:44 PM Hmm, heading into the sewers? Wererats are good. Eight level 7 rogue wererats who have been in the sewers for years picking through things they've found, and they've found some nice things. The wererats are well connected with the criminal element in town and recognize the PCs as being wanted criminals and they want the reward. Have a couple of the rogues max UMD with wands of magic missle, web, Melf's acid arrow, dispel magic, etc. All with just 3 or 4 charges left. If something doesn't work, just have them keep changing wands. Half of the wererats have a potion of invisibility, the other half have potions of mirror image. If you want, have one of the wererats be a barbarian 4/rogue 4. Just some thoughts.
Paradisio
05-16-05, 08:14 PM Not to question a great idea, but wouldn't that many level 7s by near impossible for a party of 3s-6s? especially since they really have no good control spells yet.
krichaiushii
05-16-05, 08:25 PM Kuo-toa perhaps? They may have swum up from connecting caverns and underground rivers to explore the sewers.

Include areas that are flooded to a variety of depths - ankle to knee to waist to chest to chin to over the head. All of these watery bits hinder movement, which should already be limited by the tight confines of most sewer systems. Consult balance checks, lowered movement rates, swim rules, and encumbrance systems (don't fall over, or you might not get up).

With all of the water, intelligent swimming opposition might wait until the first ranks pass, then attack the middle or rear ranks. This works best in areas where the front cannot easily turn around to save the others. Its even better when the attacker is a scrag or lacedons, because (rend or paralysis)+low level PCs = doom!

And that sewer water is likely brimming with disease. Filth Fever is my recommendation, with a higher DC for those that are injured and in the water.

Sewers are normally quite dark. Unless the PCs all have darkvision, they must bring light. A bright light can be seen from quite a distance in the dark, so they will draw fire that way.

And sentient underground dwellers know that creatures using a light source often REQUIRE the light source to see. So destroying the light (disarm it, sunder it, gust of wind to put out torches, darkness spell on item providing light, etc) is likely to be a strategy early on.

When the PCs finally emerge from the sewers, they will likely reek of sewage. Most upscale establishments won't serve them and may drive them away. The guard might even take an interest in the well-armed group that smells of the sewers.
Dynneroth
05-16-05, 08:33 PM Not to question a great idea, but wouldn't that many level 7s by near impossible for a party of 3s-6s? especially since they really have no good control spells yet.
The average level of your party is a little more than 4.5. You will have 6 or 7 characters, possibly more. You said the warmage was owning two big baddies but swarms were overwhelming to the party, so I took the middle ground. If eight 7s are too many, make it seven 6s, or five 8s. Just get copies of their character sheets and run a mock battle. Now that I think about it, you're right, eight 7s is way to tough for your party. I was thinking of what I would do as DM! :evillaugh
In fact, I'd probably have them run into two wererat scouts at first, then have them run into a mildly overwhelming force of six that causes them to run and regroup, and have one path blocked by a gelatinous cube forcing them to go a different direction, and possibly having the GC take care of a wererat or two.
reaperofnazgul
05-16-05, 08:38 PM believe me, CR is kinda funky. If you have a lone 17th level barbarian with average treasure well spent take on a sorrowsworn demon, the barbarian will wipe the floor with it. my barbarian/scout/beastmaster, well...he kinda took out ashardalon the mighty half-fiend great wyrm in 5 FREAKING ROUNDS!!! and he was lvl 20, ashardalon is CR...25 i believe? and at epic levels, the EL gets all messed up, a party of 4 adventeurs can easily take on something about +7 EL compared to them, it's insane

as for the warmage,it's called a ogre javelin

ooo, aren't i cool
uh oh
()
-- -- <<<<<------------------------------------
//
Paradisio
05-16-05, 09:33 PM I like both ideas, I think I'll make one of the wererats a war mage with armor that changes size, should give him pretty nice AC with that extra dexterity in hybrid form.

Question, do all attacks in the round get sneak attack bonus (offhand and extra attacks from BAB?) I think my players will be miffed when one of the rats sneak attacks them for 15D6 (offhand and extra main attack from BAB and sneak attack +4D6 3 times.)

Gives me new respect for rogues.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paradisio 05-16-05, 02:04 AM	Ok, here is the deal I have about 8 party members. Ranging from 3-6. Most of them are pretty average, but the warmage in the party deals tons of damage per round. And I already have trouble finding a challenge for them. It seems if I put them against a lot of little things, they die before they get a second turn and don't do much, and a couple big things either kill the players in one-two hits or die really fast being the target of so many players. Any advice?
Eliza_Stormwhisper 05-16-05, 02:24 AM	Something not too tough, but with very good defenses against spells.
Colmarr 05-16-05, 03:40 AM	My advice in these situations is to always combine lots of mooks with one or two dangerous opponents. The mooks set up Aid Another actions and flanking bonuses, and interfere with the party's ability to gang up on the really dangerous opponents. This tactic is even more effective when it's not easy to identify who is or isn't a mook (such as with humanoid opponents wearing similar armour and wielding similar weapons). You should also try to find effective combination for the bad guys. Rogues are all well and good, but they're even better with an ally to give them flanking. Wizards and Sorcerors cause havoc, but they won't last long without melee warriors to shelter behind...
Szat 05-16-05, 03:48 AM	The Complete core classes are fairly balanced. They shouldn't be outshining your other PC's. Make sure that he's playing his charater legit. If he is then chalk it up to him/her playing thier character better than the others or simply better character creation.
Flushmaster 05-16-05, 04:11 AM	If one "big" opponent is too easy to take down for the stronger characters but too stong for the weaker characters then try to find a happy medium. A pair or trio of generally tough opponents yet not overly strong against a single opponent. The warmage is probably ducking behind allies to cast their spells (that's what I did the one time I played a warmage) then tie up those allies (the melee combatants). Toss in a good ranged combatant (an archer or enemy spellcaster) to tie up the warmage. For more specific advice give us a roster of your party but until then I'll assume that the warmage is one of the strongest (and highest level) members of your party. Example encounter here: 3x lvl 3 or 4 barbarians and/or monks: these move in quickly to tie up the melee fighters. -anybody in the front ranks gets attacked head on by these guys. 1 level 5/6 or 2 level 3/4 ranged combatants: -these could be archers, or arcane spellcasters (wizard, sorceror, wu jen, warlock, or warmage); they support their melee fighters (targeting the party's front line) and/or go directly for the party's ranged support (specifically that warmage). Maybe (if necessary) 1 or 2 lower (1-3) level stealthy dudes: -they try to sneak behind the party or at least flank the front line with wneak/sudden attacks. Adds importance to supporting the front line. Trust me, I always play "rear echelon" chaaracters and they don't like it when the meat shileds go down. The warmage and any other "REMFs" (Rear Echelon Mother F*****s) will back up the front line first to save their own skins if they have brains. You don't necessarily have to use character classes here. Some monsters have ranged attacks (be they normal or magical) and others have stealth abilities while some just like to brawl. Tie up the melee characters and still present a ranged threat that has sufficient ability to witstand at least one or two hits from the best ranged attacks the party has. An extra threat always mixes things up, be it from behind (directly at the ranged attackers) or an additional threat to the front line (threatens the rear echelon's security blanket). Best advice I can offer right now.
Lidabmob 05-16-05, 04:16 AM	3rd-6th lvl drow. SR really messes up any spell caster :)
Flushmaster 05-16-05, 04:19 AM	3rd-6th lvl drow. SR really messes up any spell caster :) Yeah, the SR means a 50/50 failure chance against a caster of equal level. An archer or wizard or two combined with some warriors/fighters and maybe a rogue or two can make things challenging. If drow fit into the adventure, of course (ie, underground).
Lidabmob 05-16-05, 04:36 AM	yea if Drow don't work let me suggest Githyanki as they have SR too not quite as high as a drow but they are planar conquers so they could be nearly anywhere. Also if you want 1 creature. Use a flesh golem as a big encounter. If you need to make it slightly damaged. But if your parties average lvl is 4 or 5 you should be set to use it. It'll just be a tough encounter and will allow others beside the Warmage shine as the only thing a warmage can do is slow it.
Szat 05-16-05, 05:50 AM	Anti-magic Zones anyone?
Candar 05-16-05, 07:45 AM	I ma right now DM'ing a large groups as well, and the party is a excellent mix of characters; a warlock, a hexblade, a fighter, a ninja and a cleric/wizard - all 6th level characters. I have the exact same problem - in most combat situations it is very difficult to challenge them without killed them, which of course is not the mission. What I have found so far work is very simple; for the comabt situations divide and conquer, I have also begun to use more traps and more roleplaying challenges - all in all, it has been a good experience, as the party has become better at working together and provide a tougher challenge - I have been forced to review my DM'ing, and as a result I like to think that I have become a better DM. My initial reaction was to go after the party and try to bring them down a notch - but then I realized that I should not penalize the fact that they for once have a balanced partry that works well together. I have to admit though, that they do face some hefty creatures now in combat, easily two or three CR above their own. But as long as everybody is having fun. In the end it is the basics that work, divide and conquer work every time, isolate the spellcasters - tie up the figther etc.
High Octane 05-16-05, 08:28 AM	Ok, here is the deal I have about 8 party members. Ranging from 3-6. Most of them are pretty average, but the warmage in the party deals tons of damage per round. And I already have trouble finding a challenge for them. Assassinate the warmage and dont allow warmages anymore.
Lidabmob 05-16-05, 09:25 AM	Assassinate the warmage and dont allow warmages anymore. Yes warmage is a very strong class. However I was playing in a game where the DM ruled that Warmages primary spell casting stat was INT. I felt so dirty after the 3rd session I had to stop playing. Warlock can be just as bad. Nothing like a class that can deal out Eldritch blasts for over 2 days straight every round before it collapses.. Or better yet get him and item that will allow him to go without breathing then put him in a permant force bubble that he can move around and throw him in the middle of the next war... Watch everyones equipment start shattering... 48 hours x 60 mins x 10 rounds =28,800 castings of shattter before he passes out from exhaustion.
Paradisio 05-16-05, 05:09 PM	Most of the campaign so far has taken place outdoors, although that might change next session. They just arrived back at the starting city in the campaign, only to find that they were wanted criminals, so they will probably have to go thru a sewer/catacombs system. Or if they are dumb, they could attack directly. The party right now is: -2 characters who are about to start over (level 3-4) They killed each over because the Wu Jen insisted on eating everything she killed, even humanoids and the paladin had a problem with that, and then they got attacked. Honestly I might kick them out, since they are hard core metagamers, don't roleplay their characters at all or very little, and are very immature in general. One of them was actually calculating the enemies HP. -1-2 new characters (level 3) pretty sure one is going to be a bard, and he might bring his wife, unknown what she will be. Experienced player, can't wait for him to join. -Level 6 War Mage -Level 6 Fighter -Level 6 Rogue -Level 3 Ninja.... awakened monkey -And a couple henchmen. -Level 5 Barbarian I might boost the starting level up to 4, I don't want them to get too far behind. Honestly, I am still afraid to kill off my party members as well.
tiercel 05-16-05, 07:22 PM	SR really messes up any spell caster :) Not the warmage, if you allow the Orb spells as printed in Complete Arcane. They are broken, in the sense that they act exactly like an Evocation except they have been placed in the Conjuration school for the cheese effect of "SR: No." If the Orbs have been fixed in your world to Evocations with "SR: Yes" then you have your defense. Otherwise SR won't do much to stop your warmage. Energy resistance won't do much either, since the warmage can resort to force effects or just dial up different energies until he finds one that works (or someone makes a Knowledge check and tells him). My rule of thumb for any of the Complete X books is that any direct-damage "Conjuration" that does a chunk of energy or force damage all at once should be considered an Evocation and should have SR: Yes. Note that there are only a few Core Conjurations that deal damage, and they generally do their damage over time (melf's acid arrow, acid fog, etc.) In general, defending against ranged touch attacks is hard. Unless you are a monk and/or have an insane Dex your touch AC is probably not very special. Probably the best defense here is miss chance: concealment from darkness and fog (natural or magical), blur, displacement, blink, entropic shield, and so on. Incorporeal can help, since even magical effects have a 50% miss chance, except that miss chance doesn't apply to force effects.
siege72 05-16-05, 07:33 PM	Ok, here is the deal I have about 8 party members. Ranging from 3-6. Most of them are pretty average, but the warmage in the party deals tons of damage per round. And I already have trouble finding a challenge for them. It seems if I put them against a lot of little things, they die before they get a second turn and don't do much, and a couple big things either kill the players in one-two hits or die really fast being the target of so many players. Any advice? Have archers prepare an action to shoot the warmage as soon as he starts casting a spell. Arterial Strike, Wounding weapons, and other sources of "continuous damage" will force a Concentration check for every spell. Golems are resistant to almost all spells. Constitution damaging or draining effects will lower the caster's Concentration check.
Dynneroth 05-16-05, 07:44 PM	Hmm, heading into the sewers? Wererats are good. Eight level 7 rogue wererats who have been in the sewers for years picking through things they've found, and they've found some nice things. The wererats are well connected with the criminal element in town and recognize the PCs as being wanted criminals and they want the reward. Have a couple of the rogues max UMD with wands of magic missle, web, Melf's acid arrow, dispel magic, etc. All with just 3 or 4 charges left. If something doesn't work, just have them keep changing wands. Half of the wererats have a potion of invisibility, the other half have potions of mirror image. If you want, have one of the wererats be a barbarian 4/rogue 4. Just some thoughts.
Paradisio 05-16-05, 08:14 PM	Not to question a great idea, but wouldn't that many level 7s by near impossible for a party of 3s-6s? especially since they really have no good control spells yet.
krichaiushii 05-16-05, 08:25 PM	Kuo-toa perhaps? They may have swum up from connecting caverns and underground rivers to explore the sewers. Include areas that are flooded to a variety of depths - ankle to knee to waist to chest to chin to over the head. All of these watery bits hinder movement, which should already be limited by the tight confines of most sewer systems. Consult balance checks, lowered movement rates, swim rules, and encumbrance systems (don't fall over, or you might not get up). With all of the water, intelligent swimming opposition might wait until the first ranks pass, then attack the middle or rear ranks. This works best in areas where the front cannot easily turn around to save the others. Its even better when the attacker is a scrag or lacedons, because (rend or paralysis)+low level PCs = doom! And that sewer water is likely brimming with disease. Filth Fever is my recommendation, with a higher DC for those that are injured and in the water. Sewers are normally quite dark. Unless the PCs all have darkvision, they must bring light. A bright light can be seen from quite a distance in the dark, so they will draw fire that way. And sentient underground dwellers know that creatures using a light source often REQUIRE the light source to see. So destroying the light (disarm it, sunder it, gust of wind to put out torches, darkness spell on item providing light, etc) is likely to be a strategy early on. When the PCs finally emerge from the sewers, they will likely reek of sewage. Most upscale establishments won't serve them and may drive them away. The guard might even take an interest in the well-armed group that smells of the sewers.
Dynneroth 05-16-05, 08:33 PM	Not to question a great idea, but wouldn't that many level 7s by near impossible for a party of 3s-6s? especially since they really have no good control spells yet. The average level of your party is a little more than 4.5. You will have 6 or 7 characters, possibly more. You said the warmage was owning two big baddies but swarms were overwhelming to the party, so I took the middle ground. If eight 7s are too many, make it seven 6s, or five 8s. Just get copies of their character sheets and run a mock battle. Now that I think about it, you're right, eight 7s is way to tough for your party. I was thinking of what I would do as DM! :evillaugh In fact, I'd probably have them run into two wererat scouts at first, then have them run into a mildly overwhelming force of six that causes them to run and regroup, and have one path blocked by a gelatinous cube forcing them to go a different direction, and possibly having the GC take care of a wererat or two.
reaperofnazgul 05-16-05, 08:38 PM	believe me, CR is kinda funky. If you have a lone 17th level barbarian with average treasure well spent take on a sorrowsworn demon, the barbarian will wipe the floor with it. my barbarian/scout/beastmaster, well...he kinda took out ashardalon the mighty half-fiend great wyrm in 5 FREAKING ROUNDS!!! and he was lvl 20, ashardalon is CR...25 i believe? and at epic levels, the EL gets all messed up, a party of 4 adventeurs can easily take on something about +7 EL compared to them, it's insane as for the warmage,it's called a ogre javelin ooo, aren't i cool uh oh () -- -- <<<<<------------------------------------ //
Paradisio 05-16-05, 09:33 PM	I like both ideas, I think I'll make one of the wererats a war mage with armor that changes size, should give him pretty nice AC with that extra dexterity in hybrid form. Question, do all attacks in the round get sneak attack bonus (offhand and extra attacks from BAB?) I think my players will be miffed when one of the rats sneak attacks them for 15D6 (offhand and extra main attack from BAB and sneak attack +4D6 3 times.) Gives me new respect for rogues.