A challenge...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A challenge...? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zeth
04-27-07, 08:58 PM I need to figure out how to challenge my players in combat without ruthlessly slaughtering them. They've had no problems at all against what they've come up against so far- some human warriors, and large bunches each of kobolds and goblins. I've got a story-related encounter coming up- three drow rogues- and I need to figure out how to make them challenging enough to pose a threat, but not be guaranteed to turn the PC's into bleeding lumps of jelly. I've got a sorcerer, rogue, monk, ranger, fighter, and favored soul, all level 2.
gamerlamer666
04-27-07, 09:01 PM Dunno if this counts as good advise but the simplest thing to do would be that if they are getting there asses handed to them then fudge a few attack rolls so that the drows dont hit or get beat right back
Zeth
04-27-07, 09:08 PM I guess I could do that. I'm still really really new at this, too- I'm kinda learning a lot as I go along...
Sci_fi__Messiah
04-27-07, 09:15 PM Have them ambushed by the Rogues. Maybe the Rogues could have poisoned daggers to make the combat a little more risky, and let one of them get in a cheap shot on one of the players to mix things up a bit.
taradusis
04-27-07, 09:15 PM The drow crossbow can be coated with a sleep inducing drug.Have the rogues knock them out and rob them?Have the rogues knock them out and a hero saves them,like John wayne or the Batman,depending on the campaign setting.Always have an Npc who can ride to the rescue like the cavalry?RANDOM THOUGHTS
Zeth
04-27-07, 09:22 PM Mm...don't know how well the ambush thing would work- they're chasing the rogues, who stole a magical object from the castle of the dwarven king. Also, the rogues already got past and managed to poison the only hero-type in the area, who happens to be the guy who sent them after the rogues in the first place.

I'm already planning to use the sleep stuff, they'll each have a few shots with it.
Charlym_Zuardan
04-27-07, 09:23 PM The drow crossbow can be coated with a sleep inducing drug.Have the rogues knock them out and rob them?Have the rogues knock them out and a hero saves them,like John wayne or the Batman,depending on the campaign setting.Always have an Npc who can ride to the rescue like the cavalry?RANDOM THOUGHTS

Noooo.... thats horrible advice. if you always have npc's riding in to save the day then not only do your players think you will never let them die (thus taking the challenge and fear out of the game) but the players will feel that thier characters are continually being outshone and start to feel useless.

if you want to add some challenge change the environment up a bit, are they in caves? have the drow on a ledge or something that the players need to get up to, this will give the drow some free shots with thier crossbows.

have stalagmites and stalacites around to block line of sight from the ranged and casters, etc..

change it up depending on the type of environment you are in
allenchan
04-27-07, 09:23 PM I'd say three 3rd level drow would be good. Each is CR 4. I agree with starting it off as an ambush with them having some low-level type of poison. The first round they could be doing 3d6, which is potent, but shouldnt be deathly, and at least one will probably fall in the first round, seeing as how their ac shouldnt be terribly high.
aristotle91
04-27-07, 10:06 PM If the drow know they are being pursued by the heroes, they might well be leaving numerous traps to slow down the heroes and decoys to throw the heroes off their trail.
When the drow realize they will have to fight, then they would damn sure make it on their terms. they would set up in a well defended location, get some poison-laced traps ready, and make sure they could get off as many sneak attacks as possible before the party could tear into them.
If the drow had time, they might be able to rustle up a sorcerer or cleric to help them.
Also, don't forget to use all of the drows' racial abilities so that they are as challenging as they should be.
And, being drow rogues, they should have no problem fleeing at the first sign that the battle is going against them. in this fashion, they could whittle down the party's resources before the ultimate battle.
Elgeis
04-27-07, 10:22 PM One key thing that most of the npc's have is that the players normally come to them. This enables the hero's to be tired after cutting though cannon fodder to get to the BBEG, get injured though the use of traps, or even have the place where the battle takes place rigged in the favor of the BBEG.

Ex. One thing I'm going to do in a campain (havent worked out the details) is have my party fight this warrior type person, however his right hand man is an illusionist who messes with the people who try to take down Mr. Warrior. With this set up i can see how favored one side is over another and if its out of control I can easily affect the effectiveness of the illusionist to ballance it.

Just try to think outside the box....unless of course thats where you store the good ideas :D
Zeth
04-27-07, 10:51 PM They are definitely going to be leaving traps- they had time to set them up when they first came through. However, they don't have time to get any help.
Flatfooted_Rogue
04-28-07, 03:40 AM The drow rogues will certainly be a challenge if they plan strategically. I think that your real difficulty will be avoiding killing your PCs. Their spell resistance means that half the sorcerer and favoured soul's spells will fizzle against them.

I would suggest that the best form of attack would be if the drow attacked at night, quietly approached the camp (move quietly + hide in shadows vs listen and spot) and then all hid. One could shoot the party watchman with a poisoned sleep arrow + sneak attack damage then go in and attack. The other rogues stay hidden and wait, hitting spellcasters or big threats with their archery sneak attacks before charging into battle. If the drow get into trouble they can use their darkness ability as a smokescreen while they run away.

Of course the problem with this approach is if the watchman fails their spot, their listen and their save against poison then the rest of the party are likely to be killed in their sleep. Rogues don't really fight fairly and dark elves are not known for their mercy, that could potentially be a deadly fight for your characters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zeth 04-27-07, 08:58 PM	I need to figure out how to challenge my players in combat without ruthlessly slaughtering them. They've had no problems at all against what they've come up against so far- some human warriors, and large bunches each of kobolds and goblins. I've got a story-related encounter coming up- three drow rogues- and I need to figure out how to make them challenging enough to pose a threat, but not be guaranteed to turn the PC's into bleeding lumps of jelly. I've got a sorcerer, rogue, monk, ranger, fighter, and favored soul, all level 2.
gamerlamer666 04-27-07, 09:01 PM	Dunno if this counts as good advise but the simplest thing to do would be that if they are getting there asses handed to them then fudge a few attack rolls so that the drows dont hit or get beat right back
Zeth 04-27-07, 09:08 PM	I guess I could do that. I'm still really really new at this, too- I'm kinda learning a lot as I go along...
Sci_fi__Messiah 04-27-07, 09:15 PM	Have them ambushed by the Rogues. Maybe the Rogues could have poisoned daggers to make the combat a little more risky, and let one of them get in a cheap shot on one of the players to mix things up a bit.
taradusis 04-27-07, 09:15 PM	The drow crossbow can be coated with a sleep inducing drug.Have the rogues knock them out and rob them?Have the rogues knock them out and a hero saves them,like John wayne or the Batman,depending on the campaign setting.Always have an Npc who can ride to the rescue like the cavalry?RANDOM THOUGHTS
Zeth 04-27-07, 09:22 PM	Mm...don't know how well the ambush thing would work- they're chasing the rogues, who stole a magical object from the castle of the dwarven king. Also, the rogues already got past and managed to poison the only hero-type in the area, who happens to be the guy who sent them after the rogues in the first place. I'm already planning to use the sleep stuff, they'll each have a few shots with it.
Charlym_Zuardan 04-27-07, 09:23 PM	The drow crossbow can be coated with a sleep inducing drug.Have the rogues knock them out and rob them?Have the rogues knock them out and a hero saves them,like John wayne or the Batman,depending on the campaign setting.Always have an Npc who can ride to the rescue like the cavalry?RANDOM THOUGHTS Noooo.... thats horrible advice. if you always have npc's riding in to save the day then not only do your players think you will never let them die (thus taking the challenge and fear out of the game) but the players will feel that thier characters are continually being outshone and start to feel useless. if you want to add some challenge change the environment up a bit, are they in caves? have the drow on a ledge or something that the players need to get up to, this will give the drow some free shots with thier crossbows. have stalagmites and stalacites around to block line of sight from the ranged and casters, etc.. change it up depending on the type of environment you are in
allenchan 04-27-07, 09:23 PM	I'd say three 3rd level drow would be good. Each is CR 4. I agree with starting it off as an ambush with them having some low-level type of poison. The first round they could be doing 3d6, which is potent, but shouldnt be deathly, and at least one will probably fall in the first round, seeing as how their ac shouldnt be terribly high.
aristotle91 04-27-07, 10:06 PM	If the drow know they are being pursued by the heroes, they might well be leaving numerous traps to slow down the heroes and decoys to throw the heroes off their trail. When the drow realize they will have to fight, then they would damn sure make it on their terms. they would set up in a well defended location, get some poison-laced traps ready, and make sure they could get off as many sneak attacks as possible before the party could tear into them. If the drow had time, they might be able to rustle up a sorcerer or cleric to help them. Also, don't forget to use all of the drows' racial abilities so that they are as challenging as they should be. And, being drow rogues, they should have no problem fleeing at the first sign that the battle is going against them. in this fashion, they could whittle down the party's resources before the ultimate battle.
Elgeis 04-27-07, 10:22 PM	One key thing that most of the npc's have is that the players normally come to them. This enables the hero's to be tired after cutting though cannon fodder to get to the BBEG, get injured though the use of traps, or even have the place where the battle takes place rigged in the favor of the BBEG. Ex. One thing I'm going to do in a campain (havent worked out the details) is have my party fight this warrior type person, however his right hand man is an illusionist who messes with the people who try to take down Mr. Warrior. With this set up i can see how favored one side is over another and if its out of control I can easily affect the effectiveness of the illusionist to ballance it. Just try to think outside the box....unless of course thats where you store the good ideas :D
Zeth 04-27-07, 10:51 PM	They are definitely going to be leaving traps- they had time to set them up when they first came through. However, they don't have time to get any help.
Flatfooted_Rogue 04-28-07, 03:40 AM	The drow rogues will certainly be a challenge if they plan strategically. I think that your real difficulty will be avoiding killing your PCs. Their spell resistance means that half the sorcerer and favoured soul's spells will fizzle against them. I would suggest that the best form of attack would be if the drow attacked at night, quietly approached the camp (move quietly + hide in shadows vs listen and spot) and then all hid. One could shoot the party watchman with a poisoned sleep arrow + sneak attack damage then go in and attack. The other rogues stay hidden and wait, hitting spellcasters or big threats with their archery sneak attacks before charging into battle. If the drow get into trouble they can use their darkness ability as a smokescreen while they run away. Of course the problem with this approach is if the watchman fails their spot, their listen and their save against poison then the rest of the party are likely to be killed in their sleep. Rogues don't really fight fairly and dark elves are not known for their mercy, that could potentially be a deadly fight for your characters.