Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mr_will 02-11-06, 01:52 AM	Ok, I need help like I've never needed help before. Where do you draw the line for a CN character? I started and quit a game because of the CN characters (all 4 of them were CN) and they're rule was "I can do whatever I want..." Now I know they CAN'T do whatever they want, but I'm at a loss to draw the line. My question, is there even a line to draw? I'm so frustrated, I've banned the CN alignment from my games...this hasn't gone over well with the other 4 players, but it doesn't concern me, but for future reference, I would like how and when I draw the line for a CN character.
Haml337 02-11-06, 02:04 AM	Well... show them that actions have consequences. Harsh ones. It might not teach them to play "in alignment," but they might behave well enough to get something accomplished. Bartenders get angry, merchants call the cops, dockworkers like to settle things on their own, thieves guilds get even... Maybe not the most constructive advice, but I think you could at least keep them in line or in control.
Polaris 02-11-06, 02:05 AM	Ah yes....CN is CE without that "evil aftertaste" problem. For the record in my games, I also ban players from starting with CN as an alignment for exactly the reasons you mention. If you read CN as literally written in the PHB, it's the "I can do whatever I want and no one can tell me squat otherwise" alignment. The problem is that all too often some players take this as a license to do evil acts without consequences. BE FIRM about this. Inform your players that if they commit evil acts on a regular basis even from "whim" that they will become CE with all that implies. Personally, I don't think CN is a heroic alignment, causes too many problems, and is just easier to ban. I do allow LE in many cases, however. The other huge problem I have with CN even if the player does not go "evil lite" on me is that CN if played correctly intrinsically does not play well with others and that creats havok with an adventuring group (and eventually the other players). Interestingly I have had much few problems with LE in that regard (but I screen LE characters/players very carefully). -Polaris
Ryven 02-11-06, 02:05 AM	Chaotic neutral is NOT evil. Many players use CN as an excuse to play character evil without the reprecussions. Do NOT let them do evil acts unless they're prepared to change their alignment. A lot of munchkins and powergamers will argue that CN means that the characters are crazy and do what they want to, but in reality, a CN character is just the ultimate rebel. He doesn't like law or authority figures, but he's not going to jump off a bridge because it's there. CN characters will often do what's in their best interests. If travelling with a party fighting the forces of Vecna is in their best interest, they'll party with them. However, if the tides change, and Vecna offers the CN character a sweet deal, he can be just as likely to change sides. A neutral character doesn't do an equal amount of good or evil deeds. A neutral character merely hasn't chosen a side. It says right in the PH that a neutral character would rather have good neighbors than evil enemies. Basically, draw the line in the sand. Set down clear limits as to how you expect CN characters to behave. It's your campaign, you make the rules.
DanjaNinja 02-11-06, 02:12 AM	It sounds like you just have immature players. It might be easier just to find a new group. Every once in a while, my group has encountered a player that thinks chaotic neutral means free license to be a jackass. To be honest, we've never had any real success in showing such people the error of their ways. You can't force someone to act like an adult.
Polaris 02-11-06, 02:28 AM	It sounds like you just have immature players. It might be easier just to find a new group. Every once in a while, my group has encountered a player that thinks chaotic neutral means free license to be a jackass. To be honest, we've never had any real success in showing such people the error of their ways. You can't force someone to act like an adult. That may be true, but C-N makes it a lot easier to justify a jackass being a jackass. It's the favorite alignment of munchkins for a reason. [The favorite alignment for true power-gamers is T-N since you aren't vunerable to the alignment based spells...at least not nearly so much.] -Polaris
ShadowDragon8685 02-11-06, 02:51 AM	That may be true, but C-N makes it a lot easier to justify a jackass being a jackass. It's the favorite alignment of munchkins for a reason. [The favorite alignment for true power-gamers is T-N since you aren't vunerable to the alignment based spells...at least not nearly so much.] -Polaris That's why I favor giving those gods and clerics and even wizards who take an extreme stance (LG, CG, LE, and CE) some very harsh ways to punish Neutrality. And yes, it stacks for neutrality on both axes. :)
Elemental_Elf 02-11-06, 03:00 AM	In my experiance CN is one of the worst allignments. It's like a license to do all the evil acts you want with out being evil. I find that If I play CN characters, my character becomes a jackarce. In my new campaign, I'm baning CN and allowing LE. It's a fair 1fer1 trade. CN = Stupid, Idiotic and lame.
KDSN 02-11-06, 03:11 AM	I agree with the others. Sounds like you have an immature group of players. Talk to them out of game. Tell them you are not having fun as a DM and tell them why. If they walk its their loss, because its sound like these are the types of players that only have fun in the game when they anger and frustrate the DM.
PurdueDave 02-11-06, 03:14 AM	You are not alone, my friend. I can't begin to count the times I've seen a player use CN as an excuse for... blatantly stupid behavior for kicks under the guise of "roleplaying" being a jackass in general trying to pass off evil as "spontaneous and rash" There is no known cure.
Haml337 02-11-06, 03:37 AM	That's why I favor giving those gods and clerics and even wizards who take an extreme stance (LG, CG, LE, and CE) some very harsh ways to punish Neutrality. And yes, it stacks for neutrality on both axes. :) That reminded me of a quote. ^_^ The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.
Aristaeus 02-11-06, 04:03 AM	Well I've had no complaints from my resident DM when I went CN. But then again the characters bio stated he was a mercenary with a code of conduct that said if hired for a job stay bought till the job (or hirer) is finished. One of the more hilarious parts of the campaign was when a BBEG henchmen hired him before the party did (fee = equal part of expected loot) and in the end after the party (having incapacitated and tied up my PC) kick this henchmens ass he goes: "The usual fee for helping you people out with the follow up?" But other then that he'd work for any one and if he'd to break the law to accomplish what he'd have to do so what (and seeing it was a rogue build breaking the law was fairly common). The guy was egocentric but not stupid (reputation is everything for a hireling and better one as following the contract then one of infamy) and if not hired to do a job would do some fairly (to others) stupid things just to see if he could (for example break into the local prison).
Reis 02-11-06, 04:23 AM	break out the axiomatic weapons and NPC casters with scrolls of dictum....
ezreal2001 02-11-06, 04:28 AM	Ok, I need help like I've never needed help before. Where do you draw the line for a CN character? I started and quit a game because of the CN characters (all 4 of them were CN) and they're rule was "I can do whatever I want..." Now I know they CAN'T do whatever they want, but I'm at a loss to draw the line. My question, is there even a line to draw? I'm so frustrated, I've banned the CN alignment from my games...this hasn't gone over well with the other 4 players, but it doesn't concern me, but for future reference, I would like how and when I draw the line for a CN character. Sure you can ban CN, but it's not about to solve your problems. You need to focus on the consequences of the player's actions. So assuming they haven't been run out of town, drop the home town advantage, make the locals distrustfull and uncooperative, have the merchants change more for inferior products, ensure that respectable types go out of their way to avoid these clowns. If the players try to throw their weight arround, have the town mobilise against them - feel free to add what ever reinforcements you deem necesary. If the players want to be evil - treat them as D&D villians - that is start hunting them with intelligent partys about 1 to 4 APLs stronger:) And if you want to be evil, create situations where their actions will be responsible for deaths of other PCs - divide and conquer works so well in these situations
Zetakya 02-11-06, 08:14 AM	They are being rebellious and flouting the rule of Law. Drop the Long Cold Arm Of The Law (tm) on them. Just because they want to be able to do anything they want without consequences doesn't mean the law is going to agree. In short, put them up against some Heroes :D
WayneTheGame 02-11-06, 08:22 AM	First, the alignment itself is not the problem, the players who try to get away with this "I'm CN so I can do whatever I want without repercussions" crap are. The solution is simple.. as others have said, let there be repercussions for their actions. If a CN person kills a beggar because "I'm CN and I felt like it" then have them face the consequences. If the player tries to balance every evil act with a good act, then they're metagaming and should be shot. With a hammer. Chaotic Neutral is a fun alignment when played properly. Its the people who abuse it that cause all this "CN is a terrible alignment; I've banned it in my game!" stuff.
Radijs 02-11-06, 08:47 AM	CN has been a thorn in my side since I started DM-ing. I've got 2 players who swear by the alignment. One does it so he can constantly do 'fun' stuff and behave more erratically then an ADHD toddler on espresso and pixie sticks. The other one constantly plays so selfish as possible. If something needs paying for he insists he has no money. when another party member is in trouble he will refuse to help "Its not his problem after all". Where can I find those scrolls of dictum you mentioned?
Leap_UK 02-11-06, 08:57 AM	Well the law vrs chaos part is easy to discuss. Law is about methodical and indeed driven behaviour under obedience to an authority that exists within the context of a tradition, whilst chaos is about spontaneous and more stop-start behaviour under the direction of their personal judgement that exists with the context of constantly updated personal experience. The good vrs evil part is somewhat less easy as the separation into 3 sections is not exactly internally consistent. The easy way to run neutral is as evil(lite) – essentially Neutrals and Evils together make up “Evil” as a wider sense but with differences in severity of abusiveness.
Melpomene 02-11-06, 09:48 AM	The truth of the matter is, some people who play D&D have ADHD. It's not thier fault, but it's there. I'd say about... 10% of all my gaming group. There are also people who are "above game evil." That is, they care only about thier own fun and drag the game down with it. This accounts for 15%, sometimes on an overlap but not always. Lastly, there is the group who, bless thier pour souls, have no idea how to roleplay or behaive in any polite society, in game or out of it. Again, about 10%. As a DM, my answer to disruptive behavior is simply "No, that would be stupid. You can't do it." I'd rather stifle creativity for the greater good in a game. (LN GM) I don't ban the alignment, but taking it does come with a little disclaimer of "I don't tolerate disruptive playing."
Black Kitten 02-11-06, 10:01 AM	I must admit that more now than ever before, I feel so happy my group (IMHO) has a very firm grasp of the idea behind CN. CN is NOT EVIL! It is just as much NOT GOOD. A Chaotic Neutral character will not stick his neck out for someone else without a good reason, but that reason does not need to be selfish. Example from my party (all CN) - They had been asked by someone to take out a (LE) tyran for someone they didn't know. Adventurers in their blood, they decided to give it a shot. They took out the tyrant and looted the castle. At that moment they considered taking over the castle and the command of the area it was in. In the end they decided against it and went to Rashemen (FR). They arrived in a town there and heard about a Lycanthrope problem, they first reply was: Can we help? Then when they were faced with the results of Lycanthropy on a few people, they intended to murder them without a problem. This is (IMHO) CN since they do not go out of their way to just do the 'Good' thing (finding Remove Curse-spells for the infected lycanthropes for example), but they do not do the Evil thing either (murder all that they met, looting innoscents, demanding ruining amounts of money, etc). Chaotic Neutral is the alignment that gives you freedom. They can do what they see fit, but they will not do evil things if they can avoid it. Neither will they do the good thing if it sounds too hard or too dangerous for them in regards to the reward. They do things since THEY want to do them. This makes for very hard campaign planning, but I have found that ensuring each plots affects one of the character works very good.
Radijs 02-11-06, 10:06 AM	Black Kitten. I wish I had your players. My CN players can only be motivated by offering a heap of treasure or mortal danger.
wrecan 02-11-06, 10:24 AM	The problem wth Chaotic Stupid characters is not that they think they can get away with being evil without being Evil (that's easy to manage -- see below), but that they forget that they are Chaotic. Being dedicated to being Chaotic does not mean doing what you want. It means an active dislike and disrespect for tradition. King is offering someone a reward for rescuing his daughter? "Screw that -- he's a tyrant." Players catch a thief with a bounty on his head. "I'm not turning him in -- that's selling out to the man." Being Chaotic means actively acting to tear down authority and tradition. Are your players doing that? Yes? No. Then they are not Chaotic. They are True Neutral. Being evil without being Evil This is insanely easy to control. Every time they commit and evil act, make a note on a piece of paper. Every time they commit an act of altruism, erase one note. When you get ten of any side, change their alignment. I suspect they'll hit Evil within two sessions. Chaotic Stupic characters almost never commit acts of altruism ("I don't stick my neck out for nobody"), but often commit acts of sadism or cruelty (thinking "but I'm chaotic" neutral somehow immunizes them from blame). As soon as they become Evil (technically, Neutral Evil) send a paladin in to investigate their crimes and smite their asses. But first a warning Before you start rooking them in-game, talk to them out-of-game. By talk, I do not mean negotiate. You're the DM. They're your rules. Tell them that if they want to be Chaotic Neutral, they have to act Chaotic Neutral. They cannot act evil without making sure they are also acting good. They cannot be strictly selfish -- they must actively work to tear down civilization and society and that is quickly going to make them perpetual outlaws, meaning no more going to good-aligned churches for healign and raising, no more going into cities to buy potions and scrolls. Everything has to be bought on the black market. That's twice as expensive and takes twice as long. It's not easy being an iconoclast. Don't make it easy for them.
BW0222 02-11-06, 11:31 AM	mr_will, >Ok, I need help like I've never needed help before. >Where do you draw the line for a CN character? I started and quit a game >because of the CN characters (all 4 of them were CN) and they're rule >was "I can do whatever I want..." The problem is that most players don't understand the alignment and play CN as "chaotic stupid". The problem is pretty wide-spread and many DMs (and even RPGA campaigns) just ban the alignment. I guess I'm somewhat lucky with my players. If you are going to allow it... First, you need to let any player wishing to be CN know your definition of the alignment. Let them know that folks playing CN often misplay the alignment and cause problems for themselves and the group. To be clear... Chaotic Neutral folks believe in personal freedom - both for themselves and for others. They need a compelling reason to take actions which are likely to end their freedom or that of others. Telling some lord off, stealing coppers in the bar, looting from your own party members, etc. are sure ways of ending your freedom -- if you are in jail or unconcious by the side of the road in your underwear, that certainly limits your freedom. Intentionally depriving others folks of their own freedom is also not a CN. Stealing the last coins from a street begar is likely to her into a poor house. Second, ban PvP. Just in case the player doesn't get the above, use a simple rule. If the majority of the characters vote your character out of the adventuring party, then the player is voted out of the gaming group. You won't one-on-one them on a different night and there is no point in coming out to watch the others for hours. That person can make up a new character and wait until the next campaign starts. Merely, explain that because PvP is banned, individuals need the ability to protect themselves from other PCs who are looting from the party, who are holding back key information, who sell them out, who get them in trouble through association, etc. If PvP was allowed they likely just beat the snot out of the player and turn him into the authorities, leave him naked by the side of the road, etc. However, you are just avoiding the hard feelings that causes in banning PvP. However, if you honestly don't think a player can play the above, then just ban the alignment and save yourself the head-aches.
Leukrythus 02-11-06, 11:35 AM	Ok, I need help like I've never needed help before. Where do you draw the line for a CN character? I started and quit a game because of the CN characters (all 4 of them were CN) and they're rule was "I can do whatever I want..." Now I know they CAN'T do whatever they want, but I'm at a loss to draw the line. My question, is there even a line to draw? I'm so frustrated, I've banned the CN alignment from my games...this hasn't gone over well with the other 4 players, but it doesn't concern me, but for future reference, I would like how and when I draw the line for a CN character. The CN alignment isn't the problem, it's immature players. They'd probably be promlems no matter what alignment they played.
dungeonmasterblog 02-11-06, 11:38 AM	I've strongly urged my players not too choose Chaotic Neutral just for this reason (and they've even said like you wrote, it basically gives them free reign to do anything). While I never choose the alignment, the Ranger class is popular with one player so I always make sure he keeps everyone else in line. Dungeon Master http://www.dungeonsdragonsblog.com
DM_of_Darkness 02-11-06, 12:40 PM	It sounds like you just have immature players. It might be easier just to find a new group. Every once in a while, my group has encountered a player that thinks chaotic neutral means free license to be a jackass. To be honest, we've never had any real success in showing such people the error of their ways. You can't force someone to act like an adult. I agree CN is not realy a licence to act evil but be good but if your characters are imature enough there interpretation of the game will reflect it, so I would suggest sticking with the ban or using severe punishment if that doesn't work fight fire with fire and when they p!ss you off blow there puny insignificant characters away with that BBEG Great wyrm red dragon clan youve been saving for a rainy day :D NPC: :dragon: :dragon: :dragon: :dragon: PC: :shocked: Ahhh run away :OMG! If you blow off everyone for ultimate power you are a stinking munchkin if you blow of yourself and everyone you're a villan, if you screw yourself up the ass on accident while doing it you will most likely end up king of the world
Someone 02-11-06, 12:47 PM	There is something all of these "I'm CN so I can do whatever I want" players forget. Saying "I'm suchandsuch alignment" means absolutely nothing. Writing down "suchandsuch alignment" on their character sheet means absolutely nothing. It all boils down to how the player has their character behave. If the DM believes the PC is behaving CE, then they are CE, simple as that. The player has to think in terms of "what would the character do?" not "what do I want to do?" As others have said, CN isn't arbitrary. Its more of a "rob from the rich, and keep it" approach. They won't go out of their way to help people, but they won't go out of their way to harm people, either. Its also more of a "screw the plan, I'll just make it up as I go along" approach. They really don't like being told what to do, and as such won't really tell other people what to do.
Archmage_Vall 02-11-06, 01:21 PM	Have some clerics of St. Cuthbert take notice of all the havoc the pcs are wreaking. Maybe some inevitables too. EDIT: Said clerics should probably have axiomatic weapons, and have prepared such spells as Dictum, Dispel Chaos, and other such law-aligned spells.
DM_of_Darkness 02-11-06, 01:43 PM	you should probably draw the line at neutral, so that all though the characters may occasionaly indulge in actions more or less good or evil and similarly they may be taunted and the like they priomarily remain aloof and resist authority they may stray from these guidelines if they wish but they will suffer the consequences (alinment Change, Reputation for other alingment than they have) after all you can't force them to act mature but you can make it the only only profitable way to act :D if that doesn't work than you have some realy imature players
kraegor 02-11-06, 03:46 PM	Perfect Examples of CN people are like, Johnathan and Andrew from Buffy:tVS You just haven't chosen a side, you are neither good nor evil. But eventually doing enough evil acts will cause your alignment to shift down to CE. Remember, the way the human mind/soul works is that basically 1000 good deeds cancel out 1 evil deed. It is a lot easier to become evil than good.
Dragonklaw82 02-11-06, 04:22 PM	Perfect Examples of CN people are like, Johnathan and Andrew from Buffy:tVS No, those two were just Chaotic Stupid. A better example of Chaotic Neutral is Jack Sparrow: He is a free spirit who is driven by his desires (in this case, the Black Pearl). He has no wish to do harm to others, but has no qualms about breaking the rules to get what he wants. On the subject of controling CN PC's, I've had a long history players who liked to play CN characters. I advise you to do 2 things: 1. Understand exactly what all the alignments mean, even if you'r players don't. If they don't play that alignment, tell them their alignment has shifted towards whatever direction they are leaning. For example: In my current campaign the entire party started out CN. Over the course of things two players started acting differently. The halfling bard began to become more sympathetic to the local townsfolk and would take charge to defend them whenever danger arose. I told her her character's alignment had become chaotic good, because that's how she was acting. On the other hand, the gnome cleric had been acting increasingly more malicious, developed a bizarre fascination with the undead, and had begun casting spells with the evil descriptor on a regular basis. I told him his character's alignment had become chaotic evil, because she was playing chaotic evil. Both players accepted the change and actually enjoyed the idea of their characters growing as individuals (since both of them had been acting truly CN at the start of the campaign). 2. Make sure actions always have consequences. As stated above, bartenders get angry, merchants call the cops, etc. Make sure that for every "chaotic stupid" decision they make, there are immediate and dire repercussions, especially in a town or city. You should know by now what kind of shenanigans the party gets into. If you know they are liable to start a brawl in a tavern, make sure there are at least a few patrons there of their level or higher. If they have a habit of disturbing the peace, make sure the local constabulary are of sufficient level to pose a threat to them (within reason, though. very few cities will be able to provide 20th level warriors as town guards :P). Betrayals are repaid, an stupid decisions result in a bloody and gruesome death. My players have learned these lessons, and that keeps them mostly in line.
Quijenoth 02-11-06, 05:53 PM	A better example of Chaotic Neutral is Jack Sparrow: He is a free spirit who is driven by his desires (in this case, the Black Pearl). He has no wish to do harm to others, but has no qualms about breaking the rules to get what he wants. Perhaps that is another reason why CN is so attractive. Jack Sparrow was a very charismatic character. he sided with good and evil to get what he wanted. Yet he has repeated head on collisions with the Law. Throughout movie history the greatest and most memorable heroes are Chaotic Neutral. Sure youll have the "Iconic" heroes like Superman, Judge Dredd, etc but in this instance i dont generally class them as heroes. A hero to me is someone who does great deeds because he has no other choice - good or evil acts guide a hero to fame. This is why I have recently changed my stance on alignment. To me alignment is a tool of the DM, not the Player. If you want to make your players take their alignment seriously start hitting them where it hurts. If you run by a standard of 1 warning only you'll find characters will shift alignments quite frequently. Paladins will start loosing their paladinhood, clerics will lose there divine powers, and monks will faulter over their goal for self enlightenment. It then falls on the players to start working to maintain their desired alignment. You will probably find that 90% of players will have shifted to CN after a few levels. even the paladins will be headed in that direction unless they are excellent roleplayers. Its not entirely the players faults though - roleplaying has an element of freedom - to do what you normally wouldnt get away with in real life. To that end people take risks with their characters. So what do you do when the party is all CN? simple - treat them like the example hero Jack Sparrow. Hes constantly hounded by the law. finds salvation in the unlikliest of allies, and fills his days with contradictory decisions and dilemas. As someone posted earlier for a character to remain CN he must contine to act CN - a good act must be balanced with an evil one and vise versa. Doing evil and good at the same time is however very self distructive in the long run. A player should really strive for either extreme - does the CN wish to become a CG hero or does he wish to embrace the chaos he surrounds himself and become a CE villain feared by good and evil alike? If he trys to remain CN forever he will have no friends, and will either spend the rest of his life alone and on the run or behind bars.
lycanthrope0 02-11-06, 06:19 PM	First i have to agree that the problem is is probably immature players. that being said i also agree that means that what ever alignment they play it will be the same type of problems. i My self love playing CN. the point of it is like they said to tear down the structure of tradition to do things becasue they go against the law is a good example. Jack Sparrow was definatley CN. and if you look at fight Club out side of tylers Dirtens mental issues he was CN. When playing CN a lot of players ( especialy if they are plying Rogue's) will try to get a way with a little more pick pocketing stealing B&E. in a lot of cases if they are caught most players no they are going ganst thew laws of the town and probalby world and will take their lumps for doing it. now they should be punished if they are caught but for pick pocketing they shouldnt be run out to the galloes maybe a small fine or a short day or two jail sensentence. and if they are realy playing CN they will take the punishment in stride noing they have accomplished thier goals. if they are realy just trying to be evil then they will complain and fuss about it a lot in and out of charector. Not saying the Robin Hood types who do get caught wont make a scene bt their seen will be more along the lines of a obressive and cruel tyrant or system. i guess what i am realy saying is if it is that much of a problem for your charactor's who thinks it means "i can do what ever i want" to understand that yes they can commit crimes and then save the princes for a big reward if someone finds out about thier crimes they may in fact be thrown in jail when they present the princes back to her father or just exiled from the town. i also like the suggestion of getting things off the black market and what not. but i dissagree with the not being able to go into a good church for healing and ressurection type magics. on one hand St. Cuthberts clerics might not heal or raise the fallen party member but would Kord Realy care about the question able act. ( this good my take on CG) i say this becasue i think CG is more like Conan as far as how it plays. IE. Conan will go save the princess from the evil dragon, CUlt , Wizard what ever and everyone he see's in the temple tower or what not but the princess will die. Where all of them evil? how would he know some of them arent thier as inside agents for some group or another. like i said just my comments and take on things Ron Gregory AKA the lycanthrope
20goingon1232 02-12-06, 02:01 AM	Ok, I need help like I've never needed help before. Where do you draw the line for a CN character? I started and quit a game because of the CN characters (all 4 of them were CN) and they're rule was "I can do whatever I want..." Now I know they CAN'T do whatever they want, but I'm at a loss to draw the line. My question, is there even a line to draw? I'm so frustrated, I've banned the CN alignment from my games...this hasn't gone over well with the other 4 players, but it doesn't concern me, but for future reference, I would like how and when I draw the line for a CN character. The only way that helps, from experience, is to tell the players right at the beginning that it is going to be a non-Evil aligned campaign. Spell out in excrutiating detail what you will do to his character if he turns Evil, and then explain what you mean by Evil. Give them a baseline to follow and a baseline to avoid. Nowadays, if my player do something that I believe is Evil, I just give them a glance and they immediately go "just joking!" A couple of them keep asking me if they are going to turn Evil because of the times they have done something they think could have been construed as Evil. They are deathly afraid of what I will do to their characters (and assorted hanger-ons like familiars and animal companions), although, to be honest, I have yet to hit anyone with the consequences of turning Evil. Not even a threat threat. All I have ever done is explain the consequences and that was threat enough, apparently.
Shaitan0.2beta 02-12-06, 03:08 AM	Somebody posted that CN was the ultimate rebel. Reminds me of the way people back home used to play explaining that they weren't taking any s**t from anyone in game, even before anyone gave them any s**t. It was a non-stop p*****g contest. I had a period in (late) highschool for about a year when every game I came to looked like this: First, one of the players trys to kill you outright, for no apparent reason, just swings at you. If he succedes he threathens to do it again if you ever time you try to suggest a plan that he doesn't like. If he doesn't manage to kill you, then another one helps him, and eventualy they kill you (knock you unconciouss, anyway) and threathen to do it again if you ever try to suggest any plan in any situation. That's people who've never herd of you. If they don't succede to kill you they don't wan't to play. Why do they gang up? Because everybody who wasn't in love with CE painted to look like CN has long given up on the game. I have almost given up on the game thet, after I was forced to become a COB powergamer and fight every session for a chance to breath. Then I moved to another city and found theat there were a few people who didn't play "CN" only and always. There were a few ot them, a precious few, but it was enough. It's true, I'm not kidding. But none of my DM's ever said that it was CE. They all agreed that bullying other people into submission, going around bullying NPC's was the most fun and proper way to play. I guess CE was the fashion of the day.
Dachannien 02-12-06, 06:46 AM	As others have said, CN isn't arbitrary. Its more of a "rob from the rich, and keep it" approach. Personally, I prefer to think of it as "rob from the rich, and whatever". The idea, of course, is that the rich are usually the oppressors of the masses, so stealing from them liberates the masses. If they keep what they steal, that's fine, as is giving it to the poor and oppressed. But when keeping or donating the stolen goods becomes part of the motivation, then good and evil enter into the alignment as well.
LCD2YOU 02-12-06, 09:19 AM	Someone's post, yes the user SOMEONE not just another's handle I have already forgotten, said really good things. I too have had my problem both as a DM and a player with CN players. Here's my take on Chaotic: Free spirit, no rules. There are just as many chaotic people who don't care about the local Law and Civilization as there are trying to take it down. The majority just don't care as long as they can do whatever they want, within the following guidelines. For good, CG, the free spirit is into having evryone else have fun too. They will not hurt someone nor kill them as a matter of course. Evil rampagers, corrupt officials (LE), evil but intelligent monsters they have no problem in dispatching. For Evil, they are "Do whatever they want, no matter who it hurts." This is what so many play when they are playing "CN". The "true CN" just doesn't care about anything other than their own agenda, which can change. Yes, Captain Jack Sparrow is IMHO the penultimate CN. He does what he wants and here's the kicker, when did he kill anyone? I beleive it was only when threatened and that was against his traitorous crew. The CN person will have a truly wild time. They'll do PROPERTY damage, like stealing things, graffiti and such but the property damage aside from stealing is generally harmless. They aren't about to burn down the barn with the horses and other beasts of burden along with the farming equipment needed for the others to feed themselves. The CE person would. Yes, CN people will get violent but we must remember the difference. A CE group will go out looking to create violence. A CG group will avoid it if at all possible. The CN group will go out and do their own thing. If an interloper comes in and starts messing up their fun, they will deal with them. Generally it starts with threats and leads to subdual. If the threat doesn't take no for an answer, then it can get deadly. To be sure, the "victim" of CN rampages seeked them out, even if it was accidentally like walking into a Satyr's glade filled with partying Satyrs, Nymphs and Fey. If they don't leave immediately, they can get hurt. If the CN had been drinking alot, as in the case with Satyr parties, that can happen anyway. Again the difference is the Satyrs, the CN group, did not go out of their way to find any victims. That's my $0.02 US, $4.35 Canadian
MonkeyRidesLLama 02-12-06, 10:09 AM	I generally twitch at the thought of one of my players going CN. However, one of them created a character that after much discussion, we decided HAD to be CN. Her Warlock, due to its tie to infernal/fae powers is almost completely unacquainted with Good. Being unfamiliar with what Good actually is, she often attempts to practice Good acts with Evil means/results. Her CN alignment, to me, shows a trend from CE towards CG. She might not eventually make it there, but the intention is there. Some examples of how she tries to good and also does evil without realizing it: raising the dead to help combat a helpless town's enemies (in my game, raising the dead is an evil act), slitting the throats of helpless enemies (because letting them go would be releasing evil back into the world), etc. This, so far, has been my only good CN experience. DMs - talk to your players about their alignment choices!