Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arisune_Nailo 01-18-08, 02:15 PM	I'm having a bit of a problem with my current (and Only) D&D group. I've been DMing for this group for three years now, and I've enjoyed it for the most part. There have been a couple spells where I couldn't bring myself to DM for the group, and since I am the only one who has DMed before, no one is willing to take my place. The majority of the problem between myself as DM and my players is our very different D&D styles. I personally prefer an in depth game, where things have backrounds and there is reason behind most things in the world, while my players on the other hand are complete Hack & Slash players. They only focus on slaughtering anything and everything they can without paying any attention to anything beyond rolling dice and slaughtering monsters. I'm finding it difficult to DM at all for them, because with my different way of playing D&D, I put alot of detail into background, history, reasonings and all the fine detail work only for my players to hack through everything and pay no mind to any of the other work I've done. I've tried making plain Hack and Slash adventures for them, and I find them just that. too plain. I've also tried introducing other, less dice oriented encounters, such as solving puzzles, using diplomacy and such, but when things don't work immediately, they just resort to weapons to force their way to a solution. I'm starting to lose my patience with my group, but I don't want to stop playing D&D with them. Does anyone have any ideas what I should do to make DMing as enjoyable as I used to find it without making my players hate the game?
I_roll_ones 01-18-08, 02:20 PM	Have you asked them if they want do anything but hack n' slash? If you have, and they just wanna hit things...Very limited on what you can do. Here are some ideas that might appeal to them: 1) Two(or more) factions willing to hire the party to wipe out the other. Up to the party to decide who is less likely to backstab them or not pay up. 2) Monsters with strange tactics. If knowing a monster's background gives you an edge over them or know how they operate, then they might research more. 3) You are giving XP, loots, and possibly reputation for other actions, right?
LordTarmos 01-18-08, 02:28 PM	My suggestion is that you watch closely what creatures they kill eventually a group of hack and slash players will find that they have killed someone or something they should not have. Then make sure that the only way that they should be able to fix this is with talking, and finding things out with other skills.They will also find that there reputation precedes them. Make sure to find ways (the city guard is after them, a noble family has put a bounty on there arrest.) If they kill alot of good people or creatures they will find that they change alignment. Offer adventures where they have to bring the person back alive to get rewarded, because tthe person is no use dead. Change your dming syle so that they have to roleplay to find the greatest rewards. Offer things like if ou kill the bandit king, you get 100 gp, if you make him tell where the prince is hidden or bring him back for questioning you get 10000gp. things like this will probably change there style over time. Make sure your adventures don't reward killing. make all baddies so low level they do not receive xp for killing them. But smart enough to be challenging to talk into things. If you want them to change styles you ave to first change your style
iserith 01-18-08, 02:49 PM	I don't have this problem with my group, but I do have a player who DMs on off-weeks that prefers Mongoose's Conan RPG over D&D because it is "not as balanced" and "isn't such a mathematical nightmare." Now, I disagree with his basic premise since Conan is based largely on the d20 system. He's the kind of guy that prefers to think less strategically and more organically, even to the numerical detriment of his character. To him, the look of his sword is more important than its combat value. And though I go to great lengths to be descriptive and detailed in every encounter and plotline, once we get to combat, he inevitably grouses about how his fighter's role is simply to soak damage while the casters come up with a spell to win the day. He's an excellent DM for Conan (I play it), but his knowledge of the rules are lacking and deemed fairly unimportant in his game. It even irks him that Viking-type characters have access to Tumble, even if it is a class skill. When playing his campaign, you just have to accept that whatever rules you used to create your character are pretty much useless. It's still a good story though. In short, there's no pleasing this guy. It's a conflict of styles, plain and simple. You may have to choose between giving them what they want or handing off the responsibility to someone who will run the game they way they like. At the end of the day, if they're having fun, you've done your job, even if you don't consider it to be "high-brow." The best part about D&D is that it can be enjoyed on so many different levels. No particular fashion is more correct than another. If I were you, I would keep DMing and just go crazy with different insane encounters to flex my design muscles until they started to want something more than me kicking their ass around the battlemat every week.
Arisune_Nailo 01-18-08, 03:00 PM	Have you asked them if they want do anything but hack n' slash? If you have, and they just wanna hit things...Very limited on what you can do. Here are some ideas that might appeal to them: 1) Two(or more) factions willing to hire the party to wipe out the other. Up to the party to decide who is less likely to backstab them or not pay up. 2) Monsters with strange tactics. If knowing a monster's background gives you an edge over them or know how they operate, then they might research more. 3) You are giving XP, loots, and possibly reputation for other actions, right? I have asked them multiple times about their interest in something more than hack and slash, and when they reply, it's always that they just want to kill stuff. As for the first two suggestions, I'll have to give them a try, maybe that would work to make them think a little more than plain hack & slash. I do have rewards set up for other non-combat actions, usually greater than the rewards for hacking things apart, but they never seem interested in the non-combat way of figuring things out.
Arisune_Nailo 01-18-08, 03:03 PM	I don't have this problem with my group, but I do have a player who DMs on off-weeks that prefers Mongoose's Conan RPG over D&D because it is "not as balanced" and "isn't such a mathematical nightmare." -snip- If I were you, I would keep DMing and just go crazy with different insane encounters to flex my design muscles until they started to want something more than me kicking their ass around the battlemat every week. Kicking their asses all around the battlemat???? Hmmmm.... sounds like an idea I'd like. And if it helps them learn to be a little less hack and slash from the ass-kicking, all the better.
CrimsonDeath 01-18-08, 03:13 PM	Kicking their asses all around the battlemat???? Hmmmm.... sounds like an idea I'd like. And if it helps them learn to be a little less hack and slash from the ass-kicking, all the better. Be careful with that. I've been in a campaign where the DM seemed to want to do nothing besides kick the players around (and actually railroaded us into it), so don't do it constantly.
Arisune_Nailo 01-18-08, 03:19 PM	Be careful with that. I've been in a campaign where the DM seemed to want to do nothing besides kick the players around (and actually railroaded us into it), so don't do it constantly. Oh, I'd only do it once, maybe twice, just so they get the point. I'd make the ass-kickings completely avoidable, either through diplomacy or maybe by noticing small details that would help them out, and maybe it would help change their playing style enough to make it easier for me to DM without ruining their fun.
iserith 01-18-08, 03:24 PM	Oh, I'd only do it once, maybe twice, just so they get the point. I'd make the ass-kickings completely avoidable, either through diplomacy or maybe by noticing small details that would help them out, and maybe it would help change their playing style enough to make it easier for me to DM without ruining their fun. There ya go. Good luck.
squidyak 01-18-08, 03:27 PM	Tell them you're burned out and if they want to keep playing someone else has to put on the DM hat for a while.
Arisune_Nailo 01-18-08, 03:31 PM	Thanks for the help everyone, and keep the ideas coming, just in case the ideas I have been given don't quite work as planned.
AngeloftheNight 01-18-08, 05:33 PM	DM style and player style conflict, hmmmm. I played in a campaign once were one person (a half-orc barbarian) was just charging through and pulverizing every thing with a very good sword. We were in a network of caves and he set of a trap, sadly a vine snagged his sword as he was running from the giant bolder of doom and....... Anyway, try weakining their arsenel and also try hitting them with bounty hunters, and things (like succubuss) that really discourige hack and slash.
Chrono Nexus 01-19-08, 08:35 AM	I'm in a similar, but unusual situation. The party I play with are mostly in their mid thirties-forties, whereas I am only 20. For this reason, openly presenting a role play centric campaign seems harder to accomplish. I'm not sure if they would take me seriously. I prefer in depth role play, and they seem to be the ones stuck in kill mode. For the last two years, it's all they have played. According to them, they did world's largest dungeon- and almost completed it. I can't imagine how repetitive and boring that must have been. The DM for it had to use a Deck of Many Things so they could escape the monotony. So, I've been trying to wean them off this play style. Here are some steps/methods I've been employing. *Start at low level- Not necessarily one, but I found three was perfect. At level three, the party is powerful enough to be unique, but weak enough to have a perspective close enough to reality that they don't think of themselves as gods. This means they will be more capable at role playing these characters, and will come to rely on non combat solutions more often. Additionally, as the characters level, the players create an image of that character in their mind. Each achievement they make more clearly defines their character. *Make them remember what DnD was like when they started- present nonstandard items, treasure, equipment, and encounters, but also include recognizable elements and DnD classics (beholders, dragons, etc) to make the party feel like they have a connection. *Just start with dungeons, and keep a firm hand... add in extraneous story elements that can help them defeat the monsters within, or to bypass or complete challenges. For example, my first dungeon for them was an abandoned cathedral that was rumored to be overridden with spiders. Story elements: A spider worshiping cult found and renovated the derelict building. *Make challenges more "free form" and colorful. Don't simply add traps. Add constraints enforced by the goals of a mission, or by the rewards. For example- in the spider den (spider cult dungeon described above), the party was hired to search for and return a local priest who had visited the abandoned church (he had not yet returned). Once the party found out the spider egg sacks contained spider swarms and bits of animal remains, they realized they had a time constraint on finding the priest (and recovering their reward). *Reward role play. In my first dungeon, the characters' rewards were the loot they recovered from the temple, and a "connection" with the faith of the priest they saved. They were awarded special signs which would identify them as friends of that faith, and would ensure they received basic services for free. This means when calling a favor, or seeking out role play for benefits, there is a substantive reward. *Make them work for adventure. If my players sit around doing nothing, that's what happens. For the first couple of sessions, I pulled them along until they had a vested interest in their characters. Once that happened, I started to stop pulling, because it is now their opportunity to guide play. In the case of the second session, a simple goal guided the player's motivations- buy cool stuff with the money they collected. But they could not, because the nearest city with any reasonably powerful magic items was a distance away. The party unanimously decided to leave the small town and travel to the city. The underlying idea- adventuring gets you what you want, and doing nothing gets you nowhere. *Take them to a high population area. This part was trickiest to me. The first attempts the players made at role play (speaking to npcs) were blocky, confused, and a little silly. The hardest part I had doing this was convincing the group (in their minds) that speaking was an avenue for adventure, not a barrier to play. To do this I invented several institutions, some of which different party members joined. Shortly after, the organizations hired the party for mission. *Praise free thinking. The mission I presented to them was a dam near the city they had traveled to. The dam in question provided the city with a source of water, and regulated transport from upriver. A group of bandits captured the dam and took the engineers hostage. They threatened to open the locks (flood the city and outlying farmland) within 24 hours unless they were payed an exorbitant fee. The party were presented with a difficult situation that required planning and finesse. Their plan wasn't perfect- but I overlooked some of the flaws, and allowed it to succeed. The city gratefully thanked them, payed them rewards, and they gained public recognition as heros. I also congratulated them on creating such a good plan that defeated an encounter I didn't think could be. *Make role playing rewarding. Require more detailed backgrounds after a few sessions. This shouldn't be too hard. Allowing players to think about their characters on their own makes the descriptions more organic. The motivations that become realized in the characters are actually the ones players invent for themselves- and so by role playing, the players are fulfilling a desire of their own. *Work with the players to incorporate their back stories into play and the game. Include a character's evil necromancer father as an enemy. Include another character's home town as a location in the setting. Make acquaintances of the characters' people they can rely on and trust as friends.. or devious enemies. *Let things take their course. Once the players come to enjoy role playing, you don't need to make them or force them. That said, role play isn't for everyone. In my case, I have a great group of mature players, and I've only really been reminding them how to love role play, I haven't been teaching them.
navar100 01-19-08, 09:35 AM	Try some dungeon crawl adventures with a goal - retrieve an item, stop something from happening, place an item, rescue someone, etc. The goal gives you a reason for the adventure. The dungeon crawl is for the players to fight creatures. The party's reputation does preceed them, as a group of hearty adventures who delve into unknown lairs and get things done. Soon more Important People start hiring them, perhaps not all Goody McTwoShoes. Give yourself and the party a treat. The party's treat is a dungeon crawl just for them - no goal, just treasure hunting. Your treat is another adventure where the party was hired to do something, but they learn it was a trap to get rid of them since they keep interfering with their "employer's" plans on previous dungeon crawls. When the party survives the dungeon, they may want revenge - adventure hook for whatever you want.
kelvinaw273 01-19-08, 10:00 AM	I'm starting to lose my patience with my group, but I don't want to stop playing D&D with them. Does anyone have any ideas what I should do to make DMing as enjoyable as I used to find it without making my players hate the game? Tell them you are staring a new game. Hand out pre-made character sheets. Tell them it's not about hack'n'slash anymore, they'll have to think this time. Look pityingly at the complainers and sigh, saying you really felt they had the brains and the gumption to rise to the challenge, but if it's too tough for them ... If they ask why they can't carry on with the Kill-Kill-Kill campaign, explain that you are bored, and not enjoying it anymore. It's this or you stop DMing. Remember, you are entitled to have some fun too, and they may discover that they enjoy the change of style.
Man in the Funny Hat 01-19-08, 11:24 AM	Hack and slash players DO want roleplaying, setting, and all that - they just refuse to admit it. If you REALLY gave them what they say they wanted - to only kill things - then they'd get bored or at least find "playing D&D" less fun. Do they COMPLAIN about the non-hack/slash things you bring to your game or do they just act like it doesn't matter to them? I'm fairly convinced that even die-hard kill-freaks know deep down that if you take away the campaign setting, the interaction with NPC's, the PURPOSE to their characters lives, that killing things is just as boring as you say it is. Now I'm also convinced that you're out of luck. I've known diehard hack and slashers and IME they never do come around to really get into or enjoy the other parts of the game. I've always been lucky in that they were individuals within the group and not in a position to drag all the other players into hackfest tedium with them. So, I suspect that your options are to try to find a way to enjoy what you CAN provide for them as DM without feeling as if you are wasting too much time and effort, or else you can quit. However, you might try an experiment if you think you might just quit anyway. A big part of what you provide for them is your creativity. It's not just that you assemble stat blocks. You bring LIFE to what OTHERWISE WOULD BE mindless killing. For a session (or two, or three...) give them what they say they want - hack and slash. Mindless killing. Don't put any creativity into putting together encounters. Don't put any creativity into how the opponents react. Give nothing any background, any reason for being there. Consider it your challenge to make it as MINDLESS as possible, but without it being blatantly obvious to a casual observer that that is what you are doing. If the players ask you about it or comment on it then, without being snarky but with simple, straightforward earnestness say, "Well, what does it matter? You ARE going to just kill it right?" See what their reaction is to this. If they take no notice, get out. These players are hopeless and could just as well be playing WoW. YOU don't need to waste your time filling the role of random encounter generator. If they do take notice then explain to them what you've been doing and why. HAMMER it into their skulls that despite their prior claims to the contrary they DO want more than just hack and slash. They need to admit this to themselves and open their minds up to the even greater possibilities for fun. D&D CAN be but is not INTENDED as a mere random encounter generator and you don't want to limit yourself to that. You want more and unless they are willing to come along for the ride then that's it for you.