Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WadeWadeWade 12-10-07, 06:03 PM	Has anyone DMed or played a game where Clerics were forbidden as PCs? (Yes, this is for my game with the horrific curse.) A Cleric NPC that goes with the group is also forbidden. I'm not doing this to be mean. The home-brew world has a logic to this ruling. How did you promote survival without the walking hospital? Here are some starting thoughts: Mages may only cast spells that are available to Sorcerors and/or Wizards. I may permit Level 0 Cleric spells. Hit Points will be maxed, not random by rolling the dice. Magical healing is available through encounters, usually tied to a specific place. If the healing is portable, then it will be finite. (Like three or four potions of Cure Light Wounds, and nothing stronger.) Natural healing rates may be doubled, or I might make a Feat that doubles or triples natural healing. Thanks, Wade
Ferox 12-10-07, 06:13 PM	If there are no clerics anywhere, what about druids or paladins? I also imagine the value of healing potions and scrolls would increase dramatically, and that intelligent creatues would carry a lot more of them, and drop them as treasure.
Legdiwena 12-10-07, 06:20 PM	Don't forget bards, dragon shamen, favored souls, shujenga, spirit shamen, and rangers.
WadeWadeWade 12-10-07, 06:39 PM	Mages may only cast spells that are available to Sorcerors and/or Wizards. It was the first thing listed under starting thoughts. This means no Druids, no Paladins, no Bards, no Rangers, no Shamen of any kind, no Favored Souls, no Shujenga, etc.
Legdiwena 12-10-07, 06:49 PM	Well none of those classes listed are mages. Therefore, they wouldn't be under that restriction.
Mock26 12-10-07, 06:54 PM	Mages may only cast spells that are available to Sorcerors and/or Wizards. It was the first thing listed under starting thoughts. This means no Druids, no Paladins, no Bards, no Rangers, no Shamen of any kind, no Favored Souls, no Shujenga, etc. That just puts a limit on what spells a mage can cast. It gives no idea that other classes would be barred. I would personally allow Rangers but just remove their divine abilities. I view rangers as having a primarily physical basis (as in their connection to the earth) and less of a divine one.
Whitman 12-10-07, 07:01 PM	If you're only using the arcane spell list, that means no cure spells at all, right? Which means no cure potions either (the spell is a requirement to make them). That means either: 1) One or two encounters per day (and may the gods smile on your players if they start at first level), or 2) Some alternative to cure spells. Tweaking the Heal skill to include primitive medicine seems to be the most obvious solution. Healers ought to be able to make poultices and salves that at least partially replicate cleric healing abilities (such as a salve that temporarily gives fast heal, etc). The ingredients (herbs and fungi, or creatures with regenerative abilities) could become sought after commodities - like Alchemy ingredients in Oblivion. Skills like Knowledge (nature) and Survival could provide synergies when searching for and/or using such ingredients. Alternatively, all your PCs could be trolls...
Mock26 12-10-07, 07:09 PM	If you're only using the arcane spell list, that means no cure spells at all, right? Which means no cure potions either (the spell is a requirement to make them). Or, since the world is cursed it could be that potions and scrolls of healing do exist, but they are leftovers from before curse. That would make them extremely valuable! Imagine a potion of healing being worth 1,000 gp! Players would soon prefer to find those as treasure instead of a pile of platinum.
Felbarren 12-10-07, 07:13 PM	Umm, ever seen Monte Cook's Iron Heroes setting? Reserve hitpoints, and lots of em. If you can get a copy, would really lend itself to a very, VERY low magic setting, while giving a boost to fighting types.
WadeWadeWade 12-10-07, 07:26 PM	Or, since the world is cursed it could be that potions and scrolls of healing do exist, but they are leftovers from before curse. That would make them extremely valuable! Imagine a potion of healing being worth 1,000 gp! Players would soon prefer to find those as treasure instead of a pile of platinum. That's excellent! That just puts a limit on what spells a mage can cast. It gives no idea that other classes would be barred. Well none of those classes listed are mages. Therefore, they wouldn't be under that restriction. Thanks for finding the loopholes before my players do. The new rule is either: the only spells available are those that may be used by Sorcerors and/or Wizards, or any Class or Character that can cast Magic may only use spells that are available to Sorcerors and/or Wizards, ... and maybe 0-Level Cleric spells. Thanks, Wade
WadeWadeWade 12-10-07, 07:27 PM	Umm, ever seen Monte Cook's Iron Heroes setting? Reserve hitpoints, and lots of em. If you can get a copy, would really lend itself to a very, VERY low magic setting, while giving a boost to fighting types. That looks nearly perfect! Thanks, Wade
Legdiwena 12-10-07, 07:35 PM	I think it's out of print, might need to check used bookstores and ebay.
nightwyrm 12-10-07, 08:45 PM	You might also want to take a look at the Iron Kingdoms setting too. Healing there is limited as well, but they have salves that can turn an amount of damage into non-lethal damage. So combat is still dangerous, but at least you can heal faster after combat.
Novabomb 12-10-07, 08:52 PM	Do you find the healing strikes from the devoted spirit style in TOB to be acceptable?
lifeblender 12-10-07, 09:03 PM	It is probably a mistake to let Druids use the Sorc/Wiz spell list. That would generally make them more powerful than Wizards. I suggest that you ban Druids entirely if you are banning Clerics, or that you remove all healing spells from all classes (Bards, Druids, Rangers, Paladins). You could also use the class variants for Ranger and Paladin from CWar that exchange their spellcasting for other powers. Watch out for Warforged or other constructs, since you haven't banned the Sor/Wiz Repair spells. Those should probably be removed as well if you're trying to be consistent. Also watch out for players using the Summon Monster spells to summon creatures with healing spell-like abilities. I think the Faster Healing feat from CWar would be very helpful and sensible in your campaign.
WadeWadeWade 12-10-07, 10:03 PM	I think it's out of print, might need to check used bookstores and ebay. Thanks for pointing that out. If I can't find a printed copy on Ebay or Amazon, then I may get a PDF version. Do you find the healing strikes from the devoted spirit style in TOB to be acceptable? Does TOB = Tome of Battle? I don't have it, so I don't know. You might also want to take a look at the Iron Kingdoms setting. Thanks for the reference. I'll look at it. It is probably a mistake to let Druids use the Sorc/Wiz spell list. Watch out for Warforged or other constructs, since you haven't banned the Sor/Wiz Repair spells. Those should probably be removed as well if you're trying to be consistent. Also watch out for players using the Summon Monster spells to summon creatures with healing spell-like abilities. If the Druids only cast spells that Druids & Sor/Wiz may use, then that is acceptable. If a Sorcerer or Wizard cannot use the spell, then neither can the Druid. Warforged, Constructs, and Repair spells fit the logic of the world, but maybe not the setting. I like the idea, and I may look for a way to include this. I talked with a friend, and he suggested Healing potions created from Vampiric Touch. Healing potions are expensive, so a Necromancer can make a fortune. Thanks to everyone! Wade
pmurray@bigpond.com 12-10-07, 10:11 PM	Mages may only cast spells that are available to Sorcerors and/or Wizards. So - no divine magic. Well I'll be playing a warforged artificer, for sure.
Andrew 12-10-07, 11:09 PM	The game has evolved enough that the lines between classes are very blurry compared with simple stereotypes. You need to refine your restrictions to be clear to yourself and your players what you intend. Games with restrictions on material are an interesting challenge. Games where players are dealing with badly-defined rules and a moving target of DM expectations turn out bad for everyone. As pointed out above, there are numerous classes, items, powers, abilities, and methods to provide healing without ever touching a cleric, divine magic, or even touching cure spells. You also need to be clear if your restrictions apply to the world as a whole, or only to acceptable PC choices. Types of limits: 1. Nothing other than normal rest and/or the Heal skill can recover hit points or ability damage. This is the most restrictive and ironclad limit. Unless you change basic rules of the game, it will be short, boring, and futile. Possible fixes include variant rules such as the reserve hit points or vitality & wounds systems described in the OGL portions of Unearthed Arcana. We liek to think games like this will be more gritty and heroic, but instead they result in everybody sulking in a tent for a week after every encounter to heal up. Booo. 2. Divine magic doesn't work. This is an interesting alteration to a world, but does almost nothing to ban healing. Psionics, items, bards, dragon shamans, and the spell-like and supernatural abilities of monsters all can provide abundant healing. This is a good way to try to encourage out-of-the-box thinking and rewarding groups that realize that the divine role isn't sacred to the game. 3. The Conjuration (healing) and Pychometabolism (healing) subschools are gone, as are anything based off of associated spells or powers. This cuts healing back to effects like 'lay on hands' or negative energy spells combined with the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat. You and your players will think that you've come up with ways to work around the limits well, and then you'll jump into things like it's a normal game. You'll both be wrong, and discover this when everyone dies.
Furion Thamior 12-10-07, 11:23 PM	Can you explain why your world is like this? it might help us in understanding the exact feeling you are trying to capture. Further, your method of restricting spells is a lot of work, and part of what makes casting classes unique are the spells they have exclusive access to. Consider carefully what your game is losing, and how much work it might take to re-balance these classes. In any case, prepare for a lethal game.
WadeWadeWade 12-11-07, 09:34 AM	PMurray, Andrew, and Furion Thamior: Divine magic is banned, because the gods are upset. The reason for the gods' anger is something the players have to figure out and possibly make amends. This (the gods being upset and why) is not known by the players or the characters at the start. It's something they discover through the course of the game. I want to discourage player knowledge in my games, and I try to play by what my character knows, not what I know. I looked at the PHB (not with me right now), and it has a section describing Divine magic. I also looked at the spells, and I didn't see any attribute that identified which spells were divine. Maybe I missed it. That's why I chose the Sor/Wiz classification as my rule. I enjoy out-of-the-box thinking, and my players enjoy it too. Non-divine healing is permitted. I may allow profoundly evil divine spells for BBEGs. Thanks everyone! Wade
Whitman 12-11-07, 03:00 PM	Starting on page 181 of the PHB, spells are listed by availability to each class. According to these lists, cure spells are available only to bards, clerics, druids and paladins (although bards don't get 1st level spells 'til level 2, and paladins get their's from those huffy gods of yours). You could rule that druids, drawing their power from nature itself (not huffy gods), are still able to use such spells, but perhaps they're unwilling to offer their services. Maybe civilisation itself is the reason the gods are angry, and the druids want to redress the balance by not using their powers to aid city folk (crazy neutral cats that they are). Where bards get their power from, I don't think I'll ever know (I blame Tolkien...), but they might still be able to do their thing. One other thought. Dragonlance originally started the same way, didn't it? Can't remember how they handled that in the original modules (although I remember them being pretty tough). You can download them here (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?cPath=159&products_id=17370&it=1), for a measly $5, if you're interested.
Repirr 12-11-07, 03:31 PM	Just a thought and idea... If the gods are upset, they still need worshippers. The more worshippers a god has, the more power they have, so they need to give the people hope. Maybe (and if you don't like the idea, just say so), you should allow the Paldin class. The reasoning would something along the lines of, "The Paladin's are they only thing left in this world that still give people hope," to the common people, while to the gods it stands for something more along the lines of, "As long as the Paladin's, our chosen ones, are still alive and well, they give hope to others which keep them praying to us so we can keep our power, and still punish them." Saying this, Paladin's would be exceedingly rare. Maybe one of your players is a newly founded Paladin and instead of trying to convince people to pray for forgiveness, he wants to take a more hands-on role to fixing the problem. Just a thought.
WadeWadeWade 12-11-07, 03:58 PM	Repirr and Whitman, Thanks for your input. What I'm looking for is outside-the-box solutions for a Cleric-less game. Permitting Druids or Paladins is more like an exception to the rule instead of something outside the box. The only exceptions that I'll consider are 0-level Cleric spells and super-unholy-evil divine spells that are used by BBEGs. Thanks, Wade
Exposed_Wires 12-11-07, 04:24 PM	Repirr and Whitman, Thanks for your input. What I'm looking for is outside-the-box solutions for a Cleric-less game. Permitting Druids or Paladins is more like an exception to the rule instead of something outside the box. The only exceptions that I'll consider are 0-level Cleric spells and super-unholy-evil divine spells that are used by BBEGs. Thanks, Wade "Thanks for your bad ideas guys." Why do you need solutions anyway? Let your players struggle with that one. Thats the point. Also, you're real vague with that bit about druids and paly's. Are they permitted? Why would anybody play a druid if he can't summon nature's ally. If you want some outside-the-box thinking, you're setting up a game thats destined to fail unless you make a few changes. And for my sake, clarify this concept because you're not making enough sense. What I got so far is that gods aren't there to help, so divine spells don't work, but Bards heal with arcane. He doesn't have to get any higher being's permission to toss a heal at somebody. How can you justify taking that away?
Repirr 12-11-07, 04:25 PM	Ah, sorry. Well, then I have another idea, one that may not necessarily help the healing situation right away, but might be a fun sidequest! There could be an alchemist group or organization that's dedicated to finding a potion or oil that heals others without the help of divine magic. The others could devote some time to helping them and who knows, maybe they'll get a discount on the product for helping... Other than that, this game is just primed for an undead touch! I can't imagine a better time for vampires to go around saying, "Hey everyone, I can heal myself. See me cut my leg? See my leg healing itself? Who wants to be a self healing machine!" During an uncertain time like this, one vampire could willingly turn an entire village in a week! Hm, as for actual healing though...OH! By chance have you ever read the "War of the Spider Queen" series? During the book, Lolth basically abandons the Drow and they have to make due. Generally, they started by using scrolls, then by using wands, and eventually they used nothing except time and bandages. It seemed like a realistice aproach. I guess it really depends on how long it has been since the gods abandoned the rest of the world. That's about all I have right now, I'll come back later if I get some random ideas though!
Magrus 12-11-07, 04:39 PM	Granting druids access to both the Druid and Sorc/Wiz spell list is going to break your game. Your players will ignore the other classes and make various types of super druids, with incredible will saves, the ability to buff, blast and shape shift before diving into melee. You'll want to hang yourself once that ship takes off. Make it easy on yourself. Ban healing spells and clerics, don't tinker any more than that with the classes. Vampiric Touch will have its value increased exponentially for arcane casters. Are psionics allowed in your game? If so, Egoists will reign in as kings with alternative healing. Look at the costs of the healing potions listing. Divide healing given by half, switch to herbal based salves instead of potions. Have a Craft: Herbalism check of DC of 20+ level of cure spell the original was based off of. Keep cost the same. So, a CLW Potion becomes a Salve, Least. With a DC 21 Herbalism check, and costs 50 gp on the market or 25 gp to make. This means you don't screw with you having to fiddle with Wealth per level too much. It swaps the Brew Potion feat use with healing for maxing out a new skill. It prevents your casting classes from going haywire with screwing up their spell lists. It also provides a baseline to measure healing and cost with. Healing is now effectively double cost, but, anyone can craft the salves with a successful skill check, so it should balance out. Craft skills are available to all, and while success isn't automatic, it is possible for anyone at all. Which, in turn, places the ability to craft these salves well in the hands of the intelligent. Wizards and Rogues will be your new heal dispensing guru's. Wizards win, yet again. They can kill just as well, if not better than Druids, and can heal just the same as well. That'll be fun for your game too. Hopefully you've got players that aren't into game abuse.
Legdiwena 12-11-07, 04:47 PM	Don't have a double standard. Same rules for PC and NPC.
Redmantle 12-11-07, 05:00 PM	Wade--Dude, you haven't thought this through. Just because gods aren't providing healing doesn't mean there isn't any. Sure- it's much more limited, which can be interesting. For example- Bard cast Arcane spells. Bards have cure wounds spells on their spell list- ergo, Cure Wounds is Arcane magic (for bards). Similarly, Druids do not necessarily rely on gods for their magics (and neither do rangers) therefore they can cast healing. Also, like another poster said, psionics would be able to heal without any difficulty. Your game will be a mess without some sort of healing. A mess.
Rebel581 12-11-07, 05:25 PM	Divine Magic is described by the class casting it. If you just want no divine magic, ban Druids, Clerics, Favored Souls, and other classes that cast from a divine source (the class itself says if it's a divine source or not). Duskblades, Bards, Sorc/Wizards, Assassins, and all of those classes cast from an arcane source. Don't ban any of those classes. Bards in particular have healing and will make them a much more viable class because they are the only ones who can use a Cure Light Wounds rod. But since they cast it from the arcane CLW and not the divine CLW, the gods can still be angry. And if you just don't want a Cleric healbot, don't do this. It'll be a lot less fun. If you're doing it because it will make an interesting storyline, then do what I said earlier so it makes sense. The gods can't stop a Bard from casting CLW unless they smite the Bard since the Bard isn't casting it with the help of the gods.
Legdiwena 12-11-07, 06:30 PM	Even with no gods, some clerics would still have magic.
Jozie 12-11-07, 07:40 PM	A cleric-less campaign is doable and I encourage it. I recently ran a campaign that clerics were rare and didn't like to travel so players couldn't make one. My NPC cleric's did sell a few Cure potions though. Plus, the heal skill helped recover more hit points than usual overnight. What this did was put a note of caution on my parties actions. Combat got more strategic, the party worked together more and built on each others strengths. Without having to rely on a healer to save them from stupidity, it actually made them better players. This campaign ran for 7 months and was a great success.
WadeWadeWade 12-11-07, 09:30 PM	I truly appreciate everybody's input, even if the proposal is an exception to the rule. It's wanted, because maybe I missed something. I encourage all input. If I discourage any input, then maybe somebody thinks twice before offering that golden idea that points out how wrong my idea is or makes everything fall into place. Please, please, please believe me when I say Thank you for your input. If I ever say something sucks, please hit me with an emoticon. The story behind this whole thing, which is the big puzzle that the players have to solve (and why I didn't say earlier in case any of my players read this board), is that a human killed a god. The god was LG, and this is why there is no divine magic for humans. The PCs are human. Elves and such still cast divine magic, but they know what the humans did. They don't want anything to do with humans. Non-human races don't want to get involved with humans. Their opinion is that humans dug their own grave and they are not taking the elves or other races with them. Humans can pray to gods, and still do. The good and neutral gods don't answer. Evil gods might answer. Healing is good. I like potions and salves. I like arcane healing. A walking hospital is boring and unwanted. Psionics: I tried reading it during 2nd Ed, and was confused. Maybe if I'd been in a game where the DM understood it and could explain it, then that might have helped. I think I was in a one-shot game with another PC that had psionics, but I'm not familiar with it. The game takes place in two worlds. The first world is where humans are forsaken, but there is no Undead to worry about. The second world is the scary one with Undead and such, but also has Clerics. The players don't know about the second world when they start. They find it during an adventure. It's possible to be cursed in the second world and take it back to the first where there is no divine help. I hope this helps. If anyone wants more explanations, please let me know. If someone wants me to explain how a human killed a god in my game, then I'll explain that, too. I think it's irrelevant to the topic, but if it helps then I will. If I truly have a double-standard, then I appreciate it being pointed out. Based on the deicidal history, I don't think I have a double-standard. If I haven't thought this through, then that's why I ask for your help. I want to make sure that this is done well. I think the campaign idea is interesting, and I want my players to enjoy being a part of it. My friends love puzzles of all kinds, and I think they'll like the challenges of this one. I expect that PCs will die if they do something stupid, and that the players will still want to be involved. I don't want a walking hospital that cures their mistakes. I want this game to have an edge that keeps them paying attention and looking for non-combat solutions when they are overpowered. The balance of this is the reward. They can become far more powerful than expected, possibly bordering on the cinematic descriptions in Iron Heroes. Thanks everybody. Wade
Legdiwena 12-11-07, 09:50 PM	If you had bad experience with psionics in 2ed, you should read Expanded Psionics Handbook. It has changed a lot.
Whitman 12-11-07, 10:03 PM	Ok, forget about alternative ways of healing... I take it you're designing your own adventures. Given that NPCs ought to be working under the same restrictions as the PCs, they should be at least as wary about combat. As such, all but the nastiest varmints would have starting attitudes of Indifferent - Unfriendly. Setting attitudes at this level encourages the use of Diplomacy at low levels, as only a DC 15 check is necessary to shift an NPC from Unfriendly to Indifferent. (Also, anyone still wanting to play a cleric can still make use of his mighty charisma this way.) When the heroes have got a few more levels (and hp) on them, critters start getting more ornery. Finally, maybe check out Star Wars Saga Edition. No clerics in that. PCs start with four times the starting hp, and can get a "second wind" once a day, when knocked down past halfway. This gives the PC back one quarter of his hps, or his Con score in hp, whichever is greater. No clerics, and no four day adventure breaks after the inevitable brush with the lucky goblins...
Khallhadras 12-11-07, 10:45 PM	More or less most clerics would be able to cast divine magic. Seeing as the gods have abandoned them clergy would arise a myriad of issues arbitrating around faith, and after taking up worship of a set of ideals or principles they would thus seize what should be there's by mandate of the gods on there own, and thus not only undermining the power of the gods but also delaying if not preventing the wrath of these said gods. That would be an intriguing story arc, the gods unable to garner worship and thus power from mortals turn to other less savory races and undesirable lapses of power in order for there revenge to come to fruitation, and thus Olynt the god of Onyx and Industry is now the sibilant reptilian god of the widely reviled lizardfolk.
Andrew 12-12-07, 02:46 AM	Experiences of mine on this topic: 1. A dark fantasy/frontier setting, with some similarities to Deadlands or to the setting from the beginning of the Dark Tower series. Gods as such did not exist and were unknown, and PC clerics and paladins were not available. The group included a bard (country doctor) and a druid-in-hiding that provided what healing was necessary; the main wrinkle that was discovered was that the Bard by RAW didn't have any of the restoration spells as needed to deal with diseases. Adjustments were made. 2. A primitive setting, without any magic or supernatural abilities being available. The enjoyment from this came from an amazing DM, who would have been able to run a great game with anything from live-action Smurfs to laser schoolgirl extreeme. Standing on its own, the system did not hold up well. We got to be amazingly heroic as we camped in tents fighting infections and trying to get wounds to heal naturally. The basis of the system involves combat. The basis of combat involves getting hit a regular portion of the time. If you remove recovery from this you have problems. 3. Star Wars d20 (what I know of was before the current "Saga" edition) used a system similar to the Vitality and Wounds method. It worked OK. I expect some rough spots making it work with the breadth of material currently in the system, but it would certainly be better than just redlining out cure spells. 4. I ran a Githyanki-centered game for a while. The Githyanki culturally and politically dislike and despise divine magic, so most such classes were not available without a really good reason (there were no takers on that). By the use of magic items (principally the healing belt from Magic Item Compendium and eternal wands of a bard's cure light wounds spell from the Eberron Campaign Setting), with the expectation of psionics should the campaign have progressed further, the group did very well. Another interesting effect was that every character carried some method of healing, so the group was better at being self-sufficient and tending to the fallen than a classic party. As for your situation, you need to solidify a personal stance between this as a story/setting element and a mechanics/gameplay element - what you've communicated seems to hope to put both first, which won't work as well as picking one. If you choose the story side, make sure the story is consistent - specify in the context of your campaign which base classes are reliant on powers granted by your ill-tempered gods, and deal with questionable cases (like the Arcane Disciple feat) as they come. There are plenty of approaches that don't need the involvement of deities, such as the aforementioned bards, psionics, shamans, or even divine classes like druids or archivists (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3), who cast all the same spells as clerics (and more), yet gain spells through occult study like wizards instead of through clerical divine inspiration. Even harder to deny are Ur-Priests, who cast divine magic specifically in defiance of and against the wishes of the gods. If you deal with this largely through mechanics, keep clear and consistent rules, as before. Adjust the basic rules of damage, injury, and healing as appropriate, and study up on what specific features players can incorporate into their characters and what they can't. The game isn't such that you can change the approach your characters bring to combat and roleplay without changing how the rules of the game work. If you're blessed with players that would rather negotiate than stab, they will do this regardless of your setting. If your players expect results to be won at the point of a sword, that's what they will do. Trying to steer player attitudes to the game without reflecting that in the game is more likely to find frustration than results.
WadeWadeWade 12-12-07, 10:15 AM	As for your situation, you need to solidify a personal stance between this as a story/setting element and a mechanics/gameplay element - what you've communicated seems to hope to put both first, which won't work as well as picking one. If you choose the story side, make sure the story is consistent ... If you deal with this largely through mechanics, keep clear and consistent rules, as before. Andrew, I chose to deal with this through mechanics. 1) any spell caster may only use Sor/Wiz spells, and 2) healing is available through potions and salves. Does this fit your criteria for mechanical consistency? Thanks, Wade
Cifer 12-12-07, 04:02 PM	@WadeWadeWade You might want to take another look at the arcane/divine mechanic. The difference between both is that arcane magic comes from within the caster while divine magic comes from somewhere else (infernal pacts that empower warlocks and the like blur the line a little). Spells themselves are neither - only the combination of a spell and a caster casting it can be considered divine or arcane. If a bard casts Cure Light Wounds, it's an arcane spell. If a cleric casts CLW, it's a divine spell. Every class that casts spells notes in its description whether it's doing so using divine or arcane magic. Spells A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Spells A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Spells A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. Spells A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. So when the gods are displeased, arcane magic will still work fine. Now let's go to divine magic: There are those that receive it from gods (clerics usually and Favored Souls always do), some who receive it from non-personified ideals (paladins receive their powers from pure Law and Goodness, clerics can worship ideals) and some who receive it from even other sources (druids and rangers get it from nature, without any deity mediating). This is where it gets fuzzy. You could say that indeed only the gods are angry, meaning only the clerics who worship gods get hosed - or you could say that gods indeed control the source of all divine magic, in which case you'd simply say "any class that says it uses divine magic has to make do without their spells". I strongly recommend not just handing druids the spell list of sorcerers and wizards - said list is usually considered stronger than the cleric's and/or druid's lists. The last thing you want to do is make druids even stronger...
TarlSS 12-12-07, 04:24 PM	Games other than D&D don't have clerics, so it's pretty easy to deal without one. How would you play D20 modern, Star Wars, Werewolf or any other RPG where people actually have to go to the hospital to heal injury? Watch any action movie where heroes just get hurt during the course of the movie, it works.
WadeWadeWade 12-12-07, 04:38 PM	I strongly recommend not just handing druids the spell list of sorcerers and wizards - said list is usually considered stronger than the cleric's and/or druid's lists. The last thing you want to do is make druids even stronger... I'm not talking about replacing the Druid spell list with the Sor/Wiz spell list. I'm saying we use the Druids with the RAW (rules as written). If someone wants to play a Druid in my game (I don't recommend it), then they can only pick from spells at the intersection of the Druid list and the Sor/Wiz list. This means that a Druid can only pick spells from the Druid list that a Sorcerer or Wizard can also use. This is highly restrictive, and I intend it as such. I hope this clarifies my intention with the spell list. Maybe I should say the rule this way: Players can only choose from the following Classes: Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard. Thanks, Wade
Exposed_Wires 12-12-07, 04:40 PM	Andrew, I chose to deal with this through mechanics. 1) any spell caster may only use Sor/Wiz spells, and 2) healing is available through potions and salves. Does this fit your criteria for mechanical consistency? Thanks, Wade I want to just call you a troll and be done, but on the off chance that you actually mean this, I'm going to seek further clarification because you're still not being clear and I swear to GOD that repeating yourself isn't helping us understand your original obtuse scrawling! I like the idea you're going for. No healbots. It's a good idea. I commend you on attempting to pull it off. You're even putting in a neat story to compliment it. But you're being inconsistent. Gods are just ignoring things so that divine magic doesn't work. Done. But not all healing is divine. You can't just ignore that part because it will throw off your PCs. They'll be following the wrong clues. I have an idea for a fix, and feel free too ignore it, but I think it has some potential to achieve the feel you're going for: Say that when the gods left, they cursed man. Let arcane still have healing spells but make them work for less than half of what they do now. It's not as bad as banning it, but will make it unfeasible in combat situations. I just don't want you to screw over the bard spell list because in a world without healing, you'll want to avoid as much conflict as possible and bards do this the best.
WadeWadeWade 12-12-07, 04:52 PM	I want to just call you a troll and be done, but on the off chance that you actually mean this, I'm going to seek further clarification because you're still not being clear and I swear to GOD that repeating yourself isn't helping us understand your original obtuse scrawling! I like the idea you're going for. No healbots. It's a good idea. I commend you on attempting to pull it off. You're even putting in a neat story to compliment it. But you're being inconsistent. Gods are just ignoring things so that divine magic doesn't work. Done. But not all healing is divine. You can't just ignore that part because it will throw off your PCs. They'll be following the wrong clues. I have an idea for a fix, and feel free too ignore it, but I think it has some potential to achieve the feel you're going for: Say that when the gods left, they cursed man. Let arcane still have healing spells but make them work for less than half of what they do now. It's not as bad as banning it, but will make it unfeasible in combat situations. I just don't want you to screw over the bard spell list because in a world without healing, you'll want to avoid as much conflict as possible and bards do this the best. I'm sorry you feel I'm a troll. I didn't start this thread meaning to be a troll. I thought I had a simple question, and it hasn't turned out to be. You're right about the PCs following the wrong clues. I hadn't thought about that. I have other clues for them to follow, but maybe these won't be enough. I have more to think about now. I'm willing to let Bards do Arcane Healing if the spells are only half as effective. That's a good idea. Thanks, Wade
Legdiwena 12-12-07, 05:12 PM	How does gods being angry make monk a non-playable class?
Cifer 12-12-07, 07:40 PM	Games other than D&D don't have clerics, so it's pretty easy to deal without one. How would you play D20 modern, Star Wars, Werewolf or any other RPG where people actually have to go to the hospital to heal injury? Let's see... Star Wars (at least Saga) has Second Wind and the possibility of healing people relatively rapidly (First Aid is a Full-Round action that heals all the points the check exceeds 15; surgery takes only an hour or less with a feat and heals Con modifer * level HP). Werewolf is a really bad choice: PCs usually regenerate one of seven health levels per round, which can even be exceeded by a simple level-1-gift (Mother's Touch). Watch any action movie where heroes just get hurt during the course of the movie, it works. I'm sure all of these movie battles are pre-rolled by D&D rules, with the generic mooks being at most 4 levels below the characters, right? A campaign without easily attainable healing can work, but you'll have to say good-bye to anything you ever knew about D&D encounter balance. I'd expect about three encounters (with the Encounter Level = average character level) per week.
WadeWadeWade 12-12-07, 08:39 PM	How does gods being angry make monk a non-playable class? I don't have the PHB with me. I forgot them. Monks are okay for the game. wade
Andrew 12-12-07, 08:56 PM	Maybe I should say the rule this way: Players can only choose from the following Classes: Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard. That is the clearest info you've given, and explains a lot better than anything else; trying to sum that down into "no X" (such as no clerics) can't work, because we didn't have the information on what you're subtracting X from. There are many more full 20-level base classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/class) in the game that aren't in the Player's Handbook. The "only humans" restriction is also important to note. As other posters may have made you aware, the backstory for the limit has holes in it: powers and classes that have little to no sensible reason to be within the bounds of what the gods can deny. It would take an active, intentional curse by the gods or something similar to change things so. It's like if McDonald's decided that me, in specific, shouldn't eat beef; they would have to do something a lot more extreme than stop serving me hamburgers to enforce it. Likewise, there are holes when only dealing with the metagame mechanics. There are fighter feats that can provide reliable healing. If NPC's have access to divine spells, Use Magic Device is available for the items they make - you can't expect everyone to ignore humans. You have to pick where you want the least holes. A white-list of choices, like the above, is good for covering both, but can be very discouraging to work with as a player. Another thing to be aware of is that the D&D system does not do well at changing the rules of the universe on the fly; well-designed characters start building towards higher-level options long before they come to fruition. The expectation that "At some point, your actions might change the state of things" means very little to players, because your players won't have characters able to get any benefit from this. With the classes listed above, you'll be having a happy day (or having too generous a method of generating ability scores) if you ever get a character with a Wisdom score above 12. What I mean about having good, consistent rules to follow is not about having a list of allowed and banned material in unforgiving text. It is about having a consistent statement about why any given rule, feat, spell, option, or source material would be prohibited or allowed. More effective than a list is the formula to make the list. Guidelines that are too vague will frustrate your players when their legitimate choices from the allowed list are banned because there are too many options out there that you didn't imagine that completely undercut the premise and atmosphere you were hoping for. Too restrictive, and you'll be back here in six months asking why nobody wants to play in your commoner-only campaign.
WadeWadeWade 12-13-07, 08:31 AM	I think I have it figured out now. a Cleric-less game a Healbot free game permitted race: Human permitted classes: Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard; maybe Bard (see below) the reason: because I said so, and it kind of fits the story. Alternatives to Healbots: potions salves Feats cure spells (wands, potions, scrolls, etc) created before the gods left humans convincing non-human Clerics (unfriendly - indifferent) to help the PCs healing potions created from Vampiric Touch natural healing rates are doubled or tripled Bards: Bards may cast arcane healing ... 1) if the healing result is half as effective, and/or 2) they can only cast a certain number of healing spells per day regardless of spell level. Good enough? Thanks, Wade
Darrett 12-13-07, 10:36 AM	Sounds good. I don't see much of an issue with running a low or no healing game. Your players will just have to think through encounters a lot more, which is generally a good thing. I've run games where healing was severely limited, though I didn't restrict Clerics. In that world, healing magic wasn't a divine gift, so to speak, but rather part of the world itself (Which was a particularly feral world in which Humans and the like didn't exist until recently... planar travel gone wrong). The downside to it is that it wouldn't always work, and if it did work, it tended to have strange effects, such as having a gash on your leg grow back as bark, which can't bend. Even in my more standard worlds I tend to limit things so as to prevent the MMORPG healer archetype, where hitpoints aren't important as long as your Cleric still has spell slots open. One suggestion I might make that I've used in the past is making healing spells work out of combat only, and only as a regeneration effect. In other words, a Cleric could still exist, and he could still heal, but only by increasing the natural healing rate by a certain amount according to spell level. Something more like tribal medicine rather than a divine effect of instantly closing and mending a wound.
Cifer 12-13-07, 11:52 AM	Your players will just have to think through encounters a lot more, which is generally a good thing. The important thing here is that you as a DM should also think of this and provide the players with encounters that can be overcome by thinking. If I meet an ogre in a 15'*15' room with the door closing itself behind me, I won't get many chances to engage him in a duel of philosophy. Oh, and never, ever think "That way of easily defeating the encounter is so readily apparent that I'll not allow other ways." - 50% of all solutions a DM thinks of are based on what he knows, but his players don't know or don't have in their minds right at that point.
Darrett 12-13-07, 12:05 PM	The important thing here is that you as a DM should also think of this and provide the players with encounters that can be overcome by thinking. If I meet an ogre in a 15'*15' room with the door closing itself behind me, I won't get many chances to engage him in a duel of philosophy. Oh, and never, ever think "That way of easily defeating the encounter is so readily apparent that I'll not allow other ways." - 50% of all solutions a DM thinks of are based on what he knows, but his players don't know or don't have in their minds right at that point. That's a good point as well; I tend to encourage players to avoid combat anyway, so I didn't consider that you'd create encounters like the one above. Make sure there are multiple ways around an encounter, and put enough "useless" equipment and clutter about so the players have the maximum amount of wiggle-room for coming up with wacky plans.
Andrew 12-13-07, 08:48 PM	the reason: because I said so, and it kind of fits the story ... Bards: Bards may cast arcane healing ... 1) if the healing result is half as effective, and/or 2) they can only cast a certain number of healing spells per day regardless of spell level. Strike that first bit. My point was to have something you could tell your players that they could work with when evaluating expanded material to lessen the impression that you have capricious character creation rules, not increase it. I understand you are afraid of revealing too much of your plot out of turn, but a simple statement like: "No classes or abilities that wield divine magic or divine supernatural or spell-like abilities; no expanded alternate power systems such as psionics or incarnum; no setting-specific material such as Eberron or Forgotten Realms" ...would cover just about every aforementioned situation (though you may have to clarify that the totemic nature of a Dragon Shaman's power includes them in disallowed divine material). You would start off on a better tone with your players and they would be able to start of understanding that a Scout or a Swashbuckler would probably be appropriate but a Spirit Shaman would not be. There's no real need to further restrict the healing abilities of a bard. If you haven't ever had need to examine them closely, they have a slow spell progression and very few spells per day. It is naturally half as effective and half as many times per day. They also lack almost all the spells such as the restoration spells, remove curse, remove disease or regenerate that parties count on the divine caster to provide. However, in a setting where it's a bard or nothing, it still might seem like providing too much hope to your characters. An alternative to further de-powering the class if you really want to push the "hopeless" gimmick hard would be to limit how frequently a character can benefit from a healing spell or potion, such as only being able to accept the benefit of the one best effect received per encounter. For example, if Joe Fighter drank a healing potion that healed 5 points early in the fight, if he's really worn down at the end he'd only gain 2 hit points if he received an effect worth 7 points of healing.
EaterOfTheDead 12-14-07, 09:42 AM	I toyed with a similar idea after reading the Cthulhu D&D rules presented in the back of the Call of Cthulhu d20 book. Creating the limitations, as mentioned already, will need to be done with care. You'll need to make sure your limitations are consistent and fair. Once you begin designing adventures it gets really simple. All you have to do is compensate for more time spent resting. With no magical healing a party will just stop more often. As long as you compensate for that you should be fine.