Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DM Denubis 07-18-05, 07:11 PM	Now, I haven't been on these forums for an age or anything, but I've seen a lot of DMs complaining that players look for the magic shop, as if it were a horrible thing. I've seen people say "The munchkin is the one looking for the magic shop." And I've also seen people applauding such comments. I'm befuddled. Besides in a low magic environment, can anyone give a decent reason as to why there wouldn't be one? Besides, of course, "I'm the DM and I don't want the players to have wealth according to their level because it means that I can't slap them down with creatures of two challenge ratings lower than they are." Let me tell you how I look at it. For wizards (Not the coastal variety, I assure you.), magic is just another trade. Yes, saying "I'm a wizard." commands more respect than saying "I'm a mason.", but not every wizard adventures. In fact, most don't. In a place where adventurers are common, such as large cities, magic shops are most likely going to spring up. There's a demand, and therefore, money to be made in the industry. Who has the most expencable income? Adventurers. What are they going to spend that money on? Magic items. Once again, this is just my view, and as some will tell you, I am a min/maxer. However, I'm also a roleplayer, and so this statement has always bugged me a bit. If someone could supply insight, that'd be a wonderful thing.
astute1 07-18-05, 07:33 PM	I think there's about a million threads on this already. I'll hash out the points of both sides: Anti-Magic Shop: No, magic items are something special, they aren't to be thrown about or purchased like other commodities. After all, if everyone has magic items, then the are't special anymore. A wizard has to give up a piece of his life force for even the smallest item - you think they're going to turn around and sell that stuff? Pro-Magic Shop: The rules allow for even low-level characters to make magic items, and the creation cost is far lower than the market price - it's obvious that shops would spring up. That's the whole arguement - you might get three pages on this thread, but that's the whole thing.
TheChilliGod 07-18-05, 07:42 PM	Now, I'm all for PC's going to magic shops. Heck, I encourage it. However I always thought that the main reason why some DMs don't allow any magic shops is so that the PC's don't get too overpowered with the specific items that are guaranteed to make them better. It's pure obvious, for example, that a sneaky rogue would want some elvenkind boots. (got some for my rogue out of loot just last session!) However, the DM may feel that the rogue is not truly earning those boots by just going to Puss' Magic Boots and buying a pair, complete with suave comments by staff on how lovely they fit the rogue and they don't make her hips look big. The DM may want the rogue to go through the whole quest until she actually earns those boots off a dragon lair pile. That way, it's more satisfying. Nothing to do with DM's wanting to be evil and wishing the players to have only Masterwork weapons at 16th level. That's for bad DM's who should be spanked. Of course, if you've been here for as long as your "Date signed up" thingy says, you'd remember a huge thread in this forum all about the controversial issue of Magic Item shops.
Sargon 07-18-05, 07:43 PM	Well i think its perfectly reasonable for a Mage to Set up shop in large cities, or other places frquented by adventures.. I would agree with the statment Wizards give up part of themselves to make an item.. The burn alittle XP but thats why every year or so the wizard closes his shop and goes on an adventure himself, gaining the exp to make items.. I wouldn't say a wizard keeps anything more than a +2 in shop, but if the owner is a particularly powerful and skilled Wizard he might make a +3 item for a price.
Cailet Rinne 07-18-05, 07:44 PM	Short answer: Outside of Magical Extremes [low/high] I say, magic shop: yes; MagikMart: NO. If you happen to run a campaign where anything in the PHB is ready off-the-shelf to the consumer with the coin, why would you gripe about opening up the DMG-shop as well? Magical items will be created, either as training-fodder or in accord to their general usefulness. The lower the price, the more general the demand, the more available it will be. A given magic shop has a high chance of carrying a magic weapon or a magic armor. Will a given magic shop have the exact weapon/armor a given character is looking for? If it's a +1 longsword, hey, chances are good. A +2: a little rarer, but the demand's there. For something as general as a +, a magic shop has a greater chance to have it "in stock." Anyone who's looking for a magical weapon can make use of a +. + items and other wide-use items will be readily available. "Specialty" items such as keen, flaming, etc. are too specific to just be "on-shelf" items. You may chance across a random one, but you'll generally have to special order items of this type.
Ut-Napishtim 07-18-05, 07:50 PM	Oh yeah, there was a thread on this a while back that went on for like 20 or 30 pages started by Trench Raider IIRC. Personally I don't use magic shops. Not because I don't want my players to get their due, but because I don't want them trying to steal what they shouldn't have. It usually works out one of two ways: A. The magic shop's security is effective, and the PC gets caught/killed and the player is miffed and has to make a new character, or B. The magic shop's security isn't effective, the PC steals thousands in stuff he shouldn't have, it unbalances my game and then I'm miffed. Fortunately I've found a solution to this that (so far) has allowed my players to shop 'till they drop (within a city's gp limits anyway) while saving me a lot of headache. Normally magic items are echanged at temples to deities with the Magic Domain (certainly a hub for both Wizards and Clerics in a community,) or failing that a local Guild organization (where when there's no temple Wizards can hang out discussing the arcane and pick up a few ounces of bat guano to boot.) No player in their right mind would want to have their character messing with an entire religion or brotherhood of mages. At least, none have been that stupid yet in my games, whereas before the magic shop in some place or another was almost inevitably always the target of robbery attempts. The odd thing is with 3E (well, I'm on 3.5 actually,) I tend to have to remind them they can buy it because they like making their own stuff. The party Cleric with Craft Magic Arms and Armor was really getting overworked in my last game, he was good-aligned so I comped him the xp on stuff he made at cost for other party members to be nice. The players had a lot of fun getting custom items from a party member though, they'd usually spend like an hour trying to decide what enchantments they wanted and such. Like kids in a candy store. :D :cool: :ayyyy!:
Arrowhen 07-18-05, 07:51 PM	Some random thoughts... Besides in a low magic environment, can anyone give a decent reason as to why there wouldn't be one? I have magic items for sale in my campaign, but I don't have "magic shops." Temples and arcane organizations sell potions and scrolls, any place that sells weapons will have at least one or two "special items for the discerning customer," etc., but if a PC wants a +2 shocking, returning, distance gnome-bane throwing axe, they're not just going to walk into a shop and buy it. I'll certainly allow them to commission one, but it seems to stretch to bounds of credibility to imagine a wizard spending the time, money, and experience to craft such an item without a buyer already lined up. Besides, of course, "I'm the DM and I don't want the players to have wealth according to their level because it means that I can't slap them down with creatures of two challenge ratings lower than they are." I prefer my players to not only have magic items according to their level, but at low levels I like them to be just slightly overpowered. It gives me a little more leeway when it comes to planning encounters and it encourages to get attached to their magic weapons a little more, rather than "trading up" at the end of ever other encounter. For wizards (Not the coastal variety, I assure you.), magic is just another trade. Yes, saying "I'm a wizard." commands more respect than saying "I'm a mason.", but not every wizard adventures. In fact, most don't. Even if spellcasting is just another trade, crafting items isn't. A mason is never going to have to expend experience points to build a wall. Who has the most expencable income? Governments.
astute1 07-18-05, 07:55 PM	In my campaign, most items aren't available "off the shelf." Players have to commission items from spellcasters, and pay half the money up front, to cover the costs of materials. Major cities have many competing magic shops, which can bring the price down a bit. Smaller towns might have one or two (and a much lower price cap.) IMC, governments spend a lot of money buying up magic items that can improve the life of the populace - such as continual flame lanterns in the streets or divinations cast by the police force to catch dangerous criminals.
weasel fierce 07-18-05, 07:55 PM	Its all about how you want the campaign to be. I prefer magic to be fairly rare, something that is not spoken of in decent company, something mystical and, to the common man, creepy. It fits the dark age sort of setting I like to play and DM in. Hence, no magic-marts, though single items may be found for sale in a major city. Its all in what you want.
Cailet Rinne 07-18-05, 08:01 PM	But, by what stretch of the imagination would it take to argue that crafting mages couldn't take some (major) portion of that XP cost from the customer himself? Does it ding the crafter, still? Yes. Is the buyer going to be MUCH more commited to the purchase? Yes. Is it abusable? No more than any other potentially harmful bit of magic. Wizards are a pretty intelligent lot. How far outside of the D&D reality sphere would this fall?
weasel fierce 07-18-05, 08:08 PM	The easiest question is to ask the players if they would sacrifice XP for gold, and at what conversion ratio :)
astute1 07-18-05, 08:10 PM	I already allow the customer to "donate" some of the XP for the crafted item, when the party builds things "in-house." It keeps the item crafters from falling far behind the other characters - "Oh, well I built Joe the Fighter a new sword, now I'm a level behind him." It also gives fighters something to do during down time, rather than complain about having to sit around. The rule I use is that if you work with the item crafter, you can pay up to half the item creation cost. Simple, and it works really well.
Murr-Quan Lord #2 07-18-05, 08:21 PM	One thing I like is the DMG's guidelines for gp limitations on towns and cities. Our group plays in a very small city. ^.^ Nothing's available that costs more than 3,000 gp. But below that? It's pretty much fair game. Even the boots and cloak of elvenkind ... especially them, because it's an elven city. One of my players kept breaking into the magic shop. (Is there one in every group?) The first time he decided against breaking into the display case, in full view of the big picture windows, and snuck into the back room and took the thing on the mage's workbench. It was half-finished, and nearly ended up killing the person who used it. The next time he tried to break in there were people present, and so he staged an elaborate distraction. However, the mage had moved out of that workshop by then, so the only thing there was a trap left for a certain rogueish player. ^.^ Fortunately, he survived.
Alynn 07-18-05, 08:22 PM	The only magic shop where things can be comissioned, and bought right off the shelves is in the main large city, from the wizards guild. Thieves don't even bother trying to go in there, as just about every door you go in, blows up. There are guard mages patrolling the place, sure you can get a sneak attack on one, but the other one will hold you, cuff you up, and probably experiment on you. There are small stores, depending on the random rolls of the town, in the current town all he sells is darkvision potions (3rd level wizard) that sells them to the hunters for night hunts. He eeks out his existance just making potions for them, and he makes good money doing it.
Talanall 07-18-05, 08:36 PM	The way I handle the problem, most of the time, is to make the purchase of magical items available in one of two ways. The first? Auction houses. A high-end auction house can afford to pay for the security measures to make it plausible to have a selection of powerful magical items on hand. Prices usually run close to market value, in these venues. The second major venue for the purchase of magical items, in my games, is by finding a wizard. In my games, I treat non-adventuring wizards as either academics who study something, or as a "professional." What's a "professional?" Well, a lawyer is a professional. A doctor is a professional. A pharmacist or alchemist is a professional. And so is a wizard. So you don't go to a magic shop. You go to a wizard's office, and explain what you want, and how soon you want it, and you work out what the fees will be. Most of the time, they'll be something pretty close to market value, if what you want is for the wizard to produce a magical item for you. Overall, my experience with this scheme has been positive. It works for my group, because it allows me to exercise a reasonable degree of control regarding what magical items make it into my game, and when, while it also allows the players to request and obtain gear which is tailored to their own specifications. I also tend to offer lots of chances for my PCs to ingratiate themselves to various religious organizations and other such groups, to explain how they get hold of holy weapons and other such divine magic. Aside from that? Actually, a lot of wizards in my campaign, especially low-level types, are alchemists. If the PCs are polite/have a good Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate score, they can often gain access to these mages' potion stocks, and even the occasional wand or scroll. These are the closest I have to a MageMart(tm) in my campaigns. I find it most useful to have such establishments in large cities, since this also gives me an explanation for how a ruler or other power group gets access to minor magic.
Salla 07-18-05, 08:40 PM	It depends on the tone you want magic to have in your game. For me, magic is essentially a science. It must be; it behaves in learnable, and even more importantly, predictable manners. You say this word, make this gesture and *zap* you get bolt of mystic force that strikes unerringly, for example. You can gather a group of people together, and even someone of average intelligence can, if motivated enough, learn to cast a simple cantrip such as Acid Splash. I also assume that even a country bumpkin knows what magic is, even if he can't do it himself (which isn't the same thing as saying it doesn't scare him; however, he's afraid of it because he DOES know what it can do!), and that magic has affected society's development as any significant advance in knowledge would. However, I don't use 'magic shops', per se, because they aren't economically feasible. A typical peasant/farmer/laborer will never be able to afford a Potion of Cure Minor Wounds, the town militia can't generate enough ranks of Use Magic Device to make giving them all Wands of Color Spray feasible, and having items laying about is generally asking to be robbed (or at the very least, fend off a constant supply of would-be burglars who keep crashing into your Glyphs of Warding). What I do, however, is make magic items commissionable. Spellcasters retired from adventuring, but still into research, often create magic items for adventurers on commission. The PCs pay the full market price (half up front, half on completion), and the NPC burns all the XP. This has the following benefits: 1. It takes time, but doesn't tie up one PC for months while the others either go adventuring (and gain XP and treasure), or sit around doing nothing (which can be bad in a time-sensitive situation). 2. Selectivity. If I don't want the PCs to have a particular item for some reason, I can just say 'he doesn't know (required spell)'. Also, the PC must actually convince the wizard to make the item, which can be a trial by itself (a neutral wizard may just care about getting paid, but a good wizard will want to know the purpose the item will be put to ... and an evil one may drop a cursed item on the PC and make off with his gold!) Even though the PCs aren't off running about risking life and limb to get the stuff, it can still be an adventure, and that's assuming nobody says, "Ol' Granymir of the Golden Staff? He went missing three, four days ago ... I heard someone say they found some blood and weird footprints outside his place, but I really think he just decided to take a long walk."
VirgilCaine 07-18-05, 09:14 PM	There are two main ways for PCs to obtain magic items (I'm assuming the PCs will want more or different things than they find in adventures--goblin +1 longswords aren't as aesthetically pleasing as human ones). Churches--of course, most will not sell to anyone--at least, not without a donation. Good adventurers can easily obtain potions and scrolls from Good deities, and so on. The Mage's Guild--the Mages leave people alone, and people leave the mages alone. And the Mages defend people--helping to stop extraplanar incursions and lone outsiders, and Underdark threats and the like. The Mage's Guild is a civilization wide network of Mage's Guilds unified by the Mage's Code (which prevents evil or unseemly behavior by wizards). They provide alchemical items, material components (in limited quantities, obviously), magic items (potions) and commission forums (bigger things), and certify magic item sales.
AntiDjinn 07-18-05, 09:38 PM	Magemart is more or less world-dependent. If you are playing in Rokugan and have a magic item you don't want or can't use then it will go to someone in your clan who can. You can't just dump a magical device on the open market if there is a chance it will fall into the hands of an enemy of your clan. Basically for this setting the lack of a truly free market system means there is no free market for magic either and items changing hands will get bound up in politics just like everything else. In an Eberron game you can comission an Artificer to make an item for you, but there are no items sitting and gathering dust on a magemart shelf because there are no unwanted items. This is because of the Artificer's ability to canibalize items to reclaim the XP invested in them for use in his own item manufacturing. So if you are sick of your +1 sword and want a +2 weapon, your +1 sword will likely be consumed to help cover the XP cost of crafting your +2. "Loose" items recovered from dungeons probably don't languish either; they are also destroyed in order to make wanted items. Considering the gold, time, and XP a wizard has to put into creation of an item, does it make sense for a character with Int as his best stat to make an item and then just hope he can find a buyer? What if all the potential buyers of a +3 dire flail already have one, or can't afford one, or live in another part of the world and have no idea the item is for sale? Wouldn't it make more sense for a seller of magic items to simply provide a listing of all the items he can make (with a list of required reagents if he has the skill but lacks the materials for a particular item) and then make items on comission? That way he is never stuck with a huge XP and gold deficit and no buyer. Here is how we handle the sale of magic items in our game (not an Eberron game): Most items are made on comission; the character often has to pay half or even all of the gold up front. There is a black market for stolen items. There are also "arrangers" who specialize in locating items; you pay them and they will find an item of the type you are looking for and put you in touch with the seller. Some arrangers will even broker the deal so buyer and seller need not meet (for a percentage of the sale price, of course). Better quality mundane shops might have a few magic items for sale; a weapons shop might have one or two "special" weapons on display or locked up behind the counter. These items may be part of the shop's iventory or may be held on consignment. An apothecary (seller of herbal and alchemy supplies) might have a few items of interest to spellcasters as well as their usual stock of potions and acids. A wizards' guild will have items for sale, but only to members. There is no trade in holy items (except occasionally by the black market or certain arrangers) because such would be considered blashemy. In our game when a PC wants to sell an item they will find that unless it is of trivial value, it is very unlikely a merchant will buy it off of him. Instead the merchant may hold the item on consignment. This means the merchant agrees to display the item and answer questions about it and provide security for it. The PC sets the asking price, if it sells the merchant gets an agreed-upon percentage and holds the rest for the character. Generally, items are held for a week or two before being put on display to guard against Nystal's Magic Aura and other tricks, although if there is deception on the part of the PC he takes more heat than the unwitting merchant. PCs can also make use of the black market or simply make it known they have the item for sale and wait for it to reach the ears of the right arranger.
pres_man 07-18-05, 09:39 PM	These are extreme generalities, so don't go and get all offended if you don't like them. Pro-Magic Shop DM: Doesn't want to slow down his world-saving campaign for PCs to special order items or even worse, craft the items themselves. So there is a magic shop in every town with all the right stuff that they want. "A +3 shocking gnome bane throwing axe, let me look in the back." Goes in the back sticks his hand through a metal ring with a note, comes back with the axe. "Yup here it is." Anti-Magic Shop DM: Wants to get PCs to interact with crafters or to start taking crafting feats themselves. Or they want low money campaigns, no cash then no demand for magic items so no supply. Pro-Magic Shop Nutjob: Dumps loot on the PCs by the portable hole load. All loot is totally random and often doesn't make sense. Lets party sell it all and get whatever they want. To lazy to actually take an interest in the NPCs and/or PCs to make loot actually useful or make sense. Or he might be the sedistic DM who gives 15th level PCs treasure worth 500 cp, but doubles all market prices for items in the stores. "Hey they are there, any time you get the cash for them." Anti-Magic Shop Nutjob: Only PCs can craft items yet they are never given time to do so, "The world will end if you take a week off to craft items." Or worse, he gives the PCs items that they can't use "Great another unholy morningstar for my paladin." Also none of the crap can ever be sold. "Sorry, I only have 2 cp, I'll take that morningstar if you want to sell it to me for the 2 cp."
LuciusT 07-18-05, 09:39 PM	It depends, naturally, the specifics of your campaign... I do wonder about the model however. How many adventures are there? If adventures are rather rare people, then IMO there might not be enough of them wandering through town to support a "magic shop." The primary clientelle of your average magic shop (if one exists) is probably your average towns-person looking for cheap, affordable magic to help him in his everyday life... they are unlikely to need flaming swords. How does the local lord feel about the magic shop? If it were me, I'd probably a little hesitant about the idea of someone selling flaming swords and invincible armor to any burly swordswinger walking in off the street with a sack full of gold and a fresh dragon head. I'd rather the mages sold the flaming swords and invincible armor to me and only to me. What about the local mages guild? Do they have rules about what can and cann't be sold? Maybe they don't want the really powerful magic items in the hands of a bunch of wandering thugs but would rather those items be in the hands of some properly trained and right minded individuals who are best qualified to handle them... that being the guild of course. These are just a few of the questions I would want to consider on the subject of the magic shop.
Lord Ian Stark 07-18-05, 10:13 PM	However, I don't use 'magic shops', per se, because they aren't economically feasible. A typical peasant/farmer/laborer will never be able to afford a Potion of Cure Minor Wounds, the town militia can't generate enough ranks of Use Magic Device to make giving them all Wands of Color Spray feasible, and having items laying about is generally asking to be robbed (or at the very least, fend off a constant supply of would-be burglars who keep crashing into your Glyphs of Warding). If selling one item can make you enough gold to live for a year or more, then how the heck is that "not feasable." Sure adventures are far and inbetween but so would your sales be upon the amount of gold you get when someone does wander by asking to buy that has the gold. In the end, magical items are out there all over the place. In the hands of the good, bad and the ugly. Does everyone want or need them? No, but there is a market for them just as there is a market in today's world for anything. It's all about location, location, location. Oh and it's in the core rules for magical items to be bought and sold. Hence the tables of wealth per town size and the fact that magical items have "market prices." :P And as I said in the other thread, if you think that a place that sells magical items can't exist because it would always get robbed then I ask you what do you think banks and other places that store valuables do in the D&D world? Just let people walk in and take the crap? I don't think so.
weasel fierce 07-18-05, 10:21 PM	And as I said in the other thread, if you think that a place that sells magical items can't exist because it would always get robbed then I ask you what do you think banks and other places that store valuables do in the D&D world? Just let people walk in and take the crap? I don't think so. My world doesnt have banks, as there is no capitalist economy. Money lending is purely in the hands of the wealthy, and mingling with them can have unwanted political consequences :) But I agree, if magic is something that is sold, it is obviously feasible, economically speaking
Salla 07-18-05, 10:38 PM	If selling one item can make you enough gold to live for a year or more, then how the heck is that "not feasable." Because if you make fifteen Longswords +1 and only sell two, because that's all the demand there is, you're still way in the hole. :)
TheChilliGod 07-18-05, 11:03 PM	Because if you make fifteen Longswords +1 and only sell two, because that's all the demand there is, you're still way in the hole. :) Should've known then that that person would only need to make 2 +1 longswords. Making 15 and selling 2 is very bad planning, I don't care if we're talking +1 longswords or the muck off an unclean bath, you're going to be in the hole no matter what you sell, if you make and sell like that. Therefore, it is more or less irrelevant to the whole point.
AntiDjinn 07-18-05, 11:14 PM	I think Salla's point is that you wouldn't make them then see if you can unload them. The investment of XP is too large to leave this to chance. Let's say you make 10 items, spending enough XP that you could have leveled up instead, then you manage to sell 2 and 2 get stolen (you have been advertising so people who want one know where to come, either with cash or with stealth). Now you have the cash for 2 items, are in the hole for 2 more and still have 6 you may or may not be able to use or sell. The better plan (as I pointed out before): Don't make any items until you have the cash in hand or know exactly who is buying. Then you would just make the two items you sell. The two stolen ones would never happen (unless someone both tricks you into making one then takes it without payment) and the 6 that would have gathered dust are XP and gold you are putting to better use. And if you are a wizard or psion in need of cash and have been reading all the free economy posts here, why wouldn't you just hire out on a spell for fee basis? For that matter, there is a way better income to expense ratio in using Fabricate to crank out masterwork mundane items with no XP cost. So why not just do that if all you need is money?
WCH 07-18-05, 11:14 PM	In my campaign premade magic items are very unusual to find, as they're way too expensive for the vast majority of the population to buy, and therefore it isn't economically feasible for a wizard or cleric to make tonnes of them. On the other hand, most wizards and clerics with item creation feats are willing to craft to order for anyone who shares their alignment/goals. My temples, for instance, always detect alignment on whoever wishes to buy from them, and those who aren't close to that of the temple get told to find someone else to forge for them. Wizards are more likely to forge for anyone, but will still likely ask what the items intended use is.
VirgilCaine 07-18-05, 11:19 PM	The primary clientelle of your average magic shop (if one exists) is probably your average towns-person looking for cheap, affordable magic to help him in his everyday life... they are unlikely to need flaming swords. Are you playing a different game? Reading different material? The rarity of spellcasters and the individual focus of D&D magic makes common use of magic unlikely, and also the insularity of magic does this--see the rules for using another's spellbook, for example.
WCH 07-18-05, 11:23 PM	Didn't we figure out at some point that 1 sp = roughly $4? Meaning that 1 gp = $40, so even a "cheap" magic item like an Elixer of Love would cost the equivalent of $6000. That is... even the cheapest magic items are way out of the price range of commoners. They could buy them, sure, but it'd cost like four months wage... not something you get to help in your everyday life.
Silais 07-19-05, 01:08 AM	I hate to add to this thread which likely will go on for multiple pages and annoy anyone who dislikes long threads... But being the hypocrite that I am... The way I treat magic item shops is that most of them are fairly small as most of the people that run them only run them on the side. A temple probably caries a few of the basic healing potions, and key spell scrolls. Where as a wizard might run a small shop out of his home during his down time, or while he's researching. Either way the spellcaster in question is not a very high level and there for lacks impressive items, and since the business is only a side job, the spellcasters don't create very impressive stocks. And since their level is relatively low they can't create very powerful magic items. The reason not many high powered magic items can be bought and sold in my world is because not everyone knows how to make them. I require that in order to make an magic item, the Character must either research it (similar to researching a spell) or have a functional copy to duplicate (requires an easier spellcraft check.) This means that most magic items are bought up instantly when offered on the open market, and that the if the PCs ask a NPC for a +X Flaming, keen, long sword they'll just get a weird look. I also require, really stupidly obscure items to create a powerful magic item. For example in order to create a flaming weapon, the PCs would need the essence of a creature of the fire subtype of at least 10 HD. To create a keen weapon, they need a bring the blood of a warrior known for his lethal accuracy (has the improved crit. feat) lost during a battle with a worthy adversary. However, I also lessened the cost and EXP penalties on these items quite a bit. So basically if the party was looking to buy a powerful item, say +2 Bane, defending, Merciful, Disruption, Mitheral Great sword. They would need the following: The heart (or similar organ) of 5 different examples of creature type to bane. The limbs (or similar body part) of 2 different creatures known for their loyalty at guarding someone (like a guard dog, and a shield guardian) The blood of a creature who owes his life to an act of mercy, and the blood of the creature whom committed said act of mercy. The blood of a creature that was known for destroying the undead (like a cleric with at least one feat that improves turning) And of course they would need to find some mitheral. Of coarse the PCs, or NPC must research what is required. And there can be multiple different objects that all work equally well in creating a magic item. The only thing is that they must make sense with the theme of both the item and ability of the item. Another thing I do is make it so that all the requirements are harder to obtain to create more powerful magic items. So while a +1 flaming burst greatsword may only require the a bottle of elemental fire (captured on the plane of fire), a +3 Flaming burst, Keen Greatsword would require the heart of a fire subtype dragon of at least old age and the tooth of any other dragon. I do this to allow my PCs to get the items they want, while making every item an achievement, and giving it a back-story. Obviously my requirements could use some work and are probably not in the least fair, but I'm working on that. It is the idea that I am advocating here. However, this is all in theory. My PCs have yet to become of relevant level to be buying magic items. So I have yet to use this rule and test it. I am only hoping it works this well. I can just here everyone getting ready to accuse me of being an evil DM... On a side note: Didn't we figure out at some point that 1 sp = roughly $4? Meaning that 1 gp = $40, so even a "cheap" magic item like an Elixir of Love would cost the equivalent of $6000. That is... even the cheapest magic items are way out of the price range of commoners. They could buy them, sure, but it'd cost like four months wage... not something you get to help in your everyday life. I talked to an economist I know a while ago about this, and he estimated that 1 cp = $4, then again, this was based on the price of commoner level things (IE: Beer, a laborers wage, a trained artisans wage, Bread, a house, ect.) So I don't know if that is relevant or not. Anyhow that means that a elixir of love would cost $60,000. I know that doesn't change your point any. But it means that even a potion of cure light wounds costs either $2,000 or $20,000. Which means that for most economies, unless adventures are extremely common, magic item shops would be rare.
Gedrin 07-19-05, 01:35 AM	So...basically...we've got a world where the ability exists to: have runing water light a home, business or street 24hrs a day instantaneously, and comparatively safely (no ogres), transport goods and people between 2 points make an area protected by a password locked security alarm change the way people look cheaply and easily increase crop yeilds by 1/3rd ...BUT! no one's in business doing this stuff out of their shop. No one's trying to make money as the light or water company, FedEx, Delta, Brinks, plastic surgeons, ADM. Okay...so what are the wizards doing? Making swords?
Kaoru Nagisa 07-19-05, 02:32 AM	Well, here's my take on it. First of all, do NPC's gain experience the same way PCs do? Since I've been reading the Eberron boards a lot (which I know this is not, but please bear with me) I've been given the impression that, at least in that campaign, no, NPC's do not gain experience the same way. A ten year veteren of many battles could be level 2, for example. The NPC abilites are based on their personal potential. PC's merely have limitless potential because they are PCs! Now, forgive me for placing a concept from another sub-board and twisting it a bit, but perhaps its the same with NPC magicians and their item creation? Maybe they don't expend XP the same way as PC's do to make items. (since they don't gain them anyway, really, if you go by what I said above.) Also, they don't have a copy of the Player's Handbook and DM's Guide, do they? So, while it may be that they decrease stength from it as well, it may be in a different manner. And they don't know it point for point, either. (Unless you're in the same room as Red Mage. But they'd probably think him a lunatic anyway, and who in their right mind would place Red Mage in a campaign world?) Anyway, my point is that magic users wouldn't have that rationale we have about the creation of magic items. As to magic items in a campaign, well, my tactic is that while I will put shops that have some magic items, or even shops devoted to them (though next time I have a chance I'll add an auction block) they have limited magic items, perhaps limited by my rolls, for example. Anyway, lower level magic items would be pretty easy to find, and if you go by my logic (Or lackthereof! You decide!) since magic users would find them quite profitable. (PCs shouldn't be in the business of making magic items to for mass-production anyway. That isn't an adventurer's task until he becomes an NPC, usually! Then, XP rules don't really apply anymore in the same way!) Now, higher level items are a different story. They would be more difficult to find, and you'd actually have to shop around in large cities and metropolises to find them. You can't just walk up and ask for a Holy Avenger. You'd have to find one. Or, if you failed, have one made for you. Or make one yourself. Or find one in the horde of the Red Dragon I so graciously placed in the nearby mountain for your adventuring pleasure. If you want to find a high-level magic item, that should be something slightly difficult. That should almost be an adventure in itself. Or at least part of another adventure. (Depending on how useful the item is to the whole party, and what mood I am in, and what the moods of the players are, of course.) In the end, magic items are where you want them to be. Still, it would be boring if magic items were TOO easy to find. If you want a wand of wonders, you're going to have to look for at least a short while. You want a couple of potions of cure light wounds? You'll get em. But you want them in bulk, by the dozen? Now, that gets a little tricky. And may become a means to an adventure, if you want to gain access to so many.
Lord Ian Stark 07-19-05, 02:37 AM	This whole idea of taking a caster EXP to make an item was only done by WOTC so PC's weren't cranking out magic items left and right. The whole thing is rediculously flawed and makes no sense when you put in the NPC's way of life. Hence the constant argument of "I can only make a magic item if I go and kill some goblins to gain some expendable knowledge to burn for creation?" Just rediculous IMO.
Cantankerous 07-19-05, 03:08 AM	XP is indeed the biggest reason why a Magic Shop isn't practical even in a "rich" setting that is still reasonable. It takes far too much in the way of effort sweat and blood to gain the elan (XP) neccesary to make the item to then sell it for mere money. Look, it you are creating a sword for yourself or for a loved one, that has anything beyond the most basic enchantments, you have to sacrafice a fair deal of your personal essence (another euphemism for XP) to create this item. A simple +2 longsword with Flaming Burst added to it, made for the groups fighter because you're living in a galciated area, is going to cost the 12th lvl Wizard who (lets say has 70,000 XP total) makes it 1280 XP. That's almost 2% of the characters entire life essence, hard won and hard fought, spent to do this. Now, when you are doing this to help your own survival by making your allies more survivable, yes sure, certainly. But to sell the bloody thing for cash? Are you kidding? That's insane. In a reasonable world the only "saleable items" are those hocked by adventurers in dire need of funds and then, unless the adventurers are brain dead, they aren't hocking anything vital, anything really needed. A few, love value items, but very utilitarian ones for sale through private parties in a BIG city, sure. A bloody Shop? Only one selling the medeival equivalent of dribble glasses, maybe a few powders and potions and "sure fire love charms" and other such infantile brickabrack. Isshia
AntiDjinn 07-19-05, 03:41 AM	It makes sense for a wizard to spend XP to make a metamagic rod (quicken, empower, or maximize are good choices) for his own use. Although he spends XP on the item, having it increases his XP earning potential. Does anyone want to argue that a mage with an empowering metamagic rod is up for more challenging encounters and can take more encounters per day than an otherwise identical mage without one? A mage with a rod, ring of wizardry and robes of the magi is just all around more capable. With such devices he can easily recoup his XP cost and then some. Using your XP this way is like being a convenience store clerk and paying your way through law school: It is a large outlay that you could perhaps put to more immediate use. But once you finish your earing potential will so outstrip your previous that you will easily earn back what you spent and have a higher standard of living to boot. The same is often true of making items for other party members (if they are going to stay with you and use the items to good effect). If you equip the fighter types they can better keep you alive. Of course, if there is ever a point when you character would have died but for the use of an item you created then it was undeniably a good investment. But by constrast, dumping XP into items to sell (or hope to sell) is more like buying lottery tickets: Maybe you will recoup your investment, but probably not. If you do make lots of money, well, no guarantee that will help you earn extra XP or else every wealthy noble would be epic.
Gyrofthewastes 07-19-05, 03:45 AM	The whole thing is rediculously flawed and makes no sense when you put in the NPC's way of life. Hence the constant argument of "I can only make a magic item if I go and kill some goblins to gain some expendable knowledge to burn for creation?" Just rediculous IMO. Agreed. I don't think it's the intent of WotC that NPCs are spending xp to craft things. I like fairly limited magic shops, and using comission. Not for any balance reasons, but because I think it's far more fun to give the PCs reasons to shop around, investigate different towns/cities, use bargaining/social skills, and have occasional stretches of down time as they wait for an NPC caster to finish enchanting. (Of course, the flip side is not to make any of these things take too long and bog down the adventure.)
Silais 07-19-05, 04:02 AM	As far as NPC exp goes, I think that one could assume that they gain, story awards for small acomplishments in day to day life. For example: mabey the haggling of the price of bread is worth a miniscule amount of exp, mabey being mugged is worth a little. Or mabey succsesfuly preposing maraige would be worth some exp. These amounts would be so small that they arn't even worth considering for a PC or adventuring NPC but small enough to keep low-level spellcasters able to create lesser items. As far as comparing our technological abilities to magic (and the affect of on an ecconomy), the comparision is somewhat different. In our technological world, only one person needs to figure out how to create a peice of technology (IE: a gun) and then they can have it mass produced. Or if they want to do it by hand they can simply create it. In game terms (D20 modern style) this is simply a craft check, given the correct reasorces creating a gun in todays world, is little different from creating a sword in D&D, both can be created endlessly provided the resorces exist. A gun (IE: Desert Eagle) does 2d8 damage (D20 modern) that averages 9 damge (4.5x2). The closest equivelent to this off the wizards spell list is orb of fire, lesser (complete arcane) as cast by a 3rd level caster (2d8) both require ranged attacks, both do the same amount of damage, a gun can shoot farther (at a penalty) and orb of fire, lesser is a touch attack. So I would say they are about even in power. What is the difference? In order to use a gun a person must simply attain a licence (okay might be more difficult in some places then others) and then go buy a gun, concitering the death by gun rate in the states I would say thats probably pretty easy. If someone wants to use a gun effectivly they need only practice a little with it (take the personal firearms profficency.) The equivelent magic item, a wand of orb of fire, lesser is far more difficult to create, and use. It is more difficult to create because it uses the creators soul (life force, esscence, whatever) AKA: xp to create. It also requires more than a mere feat to use, it requires the user to be of an aproprate class. So while joe smo commoner may beable to use a gun with realitve ease it takes alot to use a equivilent magic. The point? Magic takes training and understanding to use as a skill, and can't be mass produced because of the massive the amount it takes out of it's creator. Wheras technology once it is understood by scientists, can be mass produced and requires realitivly little training to use. No one's trying to make money as the light or water company, FedEx, Delta, Brinks, plastic surgeons, ADM. Okay...so what are the wizards doing? Making swords? Some are probably doing just that (being the service industry, not making swords.) They are probably making quite the living on it to. They're probably lowlevel NPCs who either never started adventuring, or got scared and quit. Most of what you describe can be done by a second or lower level spell. Anyhow thats my rant, Sorry, I may have strayed off topic just a little. I'm tired tonight and needed a distracton.
Chobemaster 07-19-05, 08:46 AM	But I agree, if magic is something that is sold, it is obviously feasible, economically speaking That reasoning isn't very strong. Someone somewhere would buy a solid-gold Ferrari. That doesn't mean there will be a solid-gold Ferrari dealership in Mayberry.
Chobemaster 07-19-05, 08:49 AM	the biggest problem with a decent magic shop is that it would be robbed almost as soon as it opened...a shop worthy of the name has more treasure per guardian CR than dragon hoards.
VirgilCaine 07-19-05, 08:54 AM	the biggest problem with a decent magic shop is that it would be robbed almost as soon as it opened...a shop worthy of the name has more treasure per guardian CR than dragon hoards. Didn't we handle this? Churches and mage's guilds?
Chobemaster 07-19-05, 09:03 AM	Didn't we handle this? Churches and mage's guilds? Just saying "it's in a church" doesn't solve the problem. PC's assault evil temples and wizard towers all the time, for less loot, and usually win. this solution just ups the scale of the problem. If the magic store is so stocked and so lucrative that it's worth considerable effort from a large group of decent level spellcasters, then it is just a more attractive target. Or you have Elminster and Rory spending their time guarding a store. Maybe that's why the PC's have to go actually DO all the adventures, all the epic mages are on guard duty.
Illion the Red 07-19-05, 09:37 AM	Over and over I see arguments on wizards expending their life force to make magic items and that they just wouldn't make and sell items because of this. I just don't get it. Sure, there's an XP cost, but how much is it really? It's 1/25th of the base price of the item, isn't it? Let's see...5th level wizard makes a +1 longsword. What does that cost him in experience? 100 or so? That's not even one fireball into a bunch of orcs. Not much of a cost there. Whether you, as a DM want a magic shop for your PCs is entirely up to you, and should be a decision based on campaign flavor AND enjoyment. If your players all want to play VOP Monks, then it really doesn't matter much, but if your players rely on magic items to survive, why not give them the opportunity to get some more without tremendous hassle. This should encourage you players to USE their items up. Remeber that tougher encounters should use up significant portions of their resources, so why not let them restock? That's not to say that specialized and exotic items/weapons/armor should be lying around on the shelves, but if the PC is looking for a goblinbane weapon in a city that has been beseiged by goblins for 2 centuries, maybe, just maybe, there's one or two lying around.
Ut-Napishtim 07-19-05, 10:01 AM	Just saying "it's in a church" doesn't solve the problem. PC's assault evil temples and wizard towers all the time, for less loot, and usually win. this solution just ups the scale of the problem. If the magic store is so stocked and so lucrative that it's worth considerable effort from a large group of decent level spellcasters, then it is just a more attractive target. Or you have Elminster and Rory spending their time guarding a store. Maybe that's why the PC's have to go actually DO all the adventures, all the epic mages are on guard duty. Well, my personal take on it wasn't that they've got their members lined up pulling guard duty on their magic stock. Rather it was that the power of the organization itself acts as a passive deterrent - like nuclear weapons. If someone decided to run in and rob the temple or guild of it's magic items, most folks would probably laugh and let them take all they wanted. Then laugh again when he comes running back screaming a couple days later to return it because his wanker fell off, or simply run him down and deal with him when it's convenient. IIRC one poster on these boards posted a breakdown a while back whereby a single (non-epic too!) Red Wizard could get powered up by a few of his buds, then teleport to any location on the planet errorlessly and kill anyone instantly with no save. Of course I run my games by the DMG so most of the highest level NPC's are like 15th and 16th, and nobody is 20th. Without epic level superdudes running around a church or guild of assorted level folks is definitely a force to be reckoned with, which sort of makes it more viable.
astute1 07-19-05, 10:05 AM	No one's trying to make money as the light or water company, FedEx, Delta, Brinks, plastic surgeons, ADM. Okay...so what are the wizards doing? Making swords? Evidently, you're not playing Eberron :D So basically if the party was looking to buy a powerful item, say +2 Bane, defending, Merciful, Disruption, Mitheral Great sword. They would need the following: The heart (or similar organ) of 5 different examples of creature type to bane. The limbs (or similar body part) of 2 different creatures known for their loyalty at guarding someone (like a guard dog, and a shield guardian) The blood of a creature who owes his life to an act of mercy, and the blood of the creature whom committed said act of mercy. The blood of a creature that was known for destroying the undead (like a cleric with at least one feat that improves turning) And of course they would need to find some mitheral. I allow people to reduce costs of magic item creation in a similar manner. I don't require it, but for the artificer looking to get something done on the cheap, it's worthwhile.
Feriin 07-19-05, 10:11 AM	I think there's about a million threads on this already. I'll hash out the points of both sides: Anti-Magic Shop: No, magic items are something special, they aren't to be thrown about or purchased like other commodities. After all, if everyone has magic items, then the are't special anymore. A wizard has to give up a piece of his life force for even the smallest item - you think they're going to turn around and sell that stuff? Pro-Magic Shop: The rules allow for even low-level characters to make magic items, and the creation cost is far lower than the market price - it's obvious that shops would spring up. That's the whole arguement - you might get three pages on this thread, but that's the whole thing. Your "they give up a peice of thier lifeforce" thing is wrong, People who live now do it for money all the time. You ever sell your blood, plasma, or even do a medical study where you were paid money for your time? All of these is an example of someone selling a peice of thier "lifeforce" as you call it.
Chobemaster 07-19-05, 10:17 AM	Well, my personal take on it wasn't that they've got their members lined up pulling guard duty on their magic stock. Rather it was that the power of the organization itself acts as a passive deterrent - like nuclear weapons. If someone decided to run in and rob the temple or guild of it's magic items, most folks would probably laugh and let them take all they wanted. Then laugh again when he comes running back screaming a couple days later to return it because his wanker fell off, or simply run him down and deal with him when it's convenient. IIRC one poster on these boards posted a breakdown a while back whereby a single (non-epic too!) Red Wizard could get powered up by a few of his buds, then teleport to any location on the planet errorlessly and kill anyone instantly with no save. Of course I run my games by the DMG so most of the highest level NPC's are like 15th and 16th, and nobody is 20th. Without epic level superdudes running around a church or guild of assorted level folks is definitely a force to be reckoned with, which sort of makes it more viable. Good thing none of the PC's foes think of this, then. If something can be made assault-proof/ completely deterring, that's what BBEG's would do.
Chobemaster 07-19-05, 10:18 AM	Your "they give up a peice of thier lifeforce" thing is wrong, People who live now do it for money all the time. You ever sell your blood, plasma, or even do a medical study where you were paid money for your time? All of these is an example of someone selling a peice of thier "lifeforce" as you call it. Bad analogy. Blood and plasma replenish themselves. Time passes at a fixed rate for all of us regardless of our choices. XP must be re-earned.
VirgilCaine 07-19-05, 10:58 AM	Well, my personal take on it wasn't that they've got their members lined up pulling guard duty on their magic stock. Rather it was that the power of the organization itself acts as a passive deterrent - like nuclear weapons. And we aren't always talking ONLY the ONE church that was burglarized--Good or Lawful churches will still want a piece of lawbreakers or thieves (whichever way they see them) and there are adventuring parties, government agents, all kinds of people who would keep an eye out for people heaving magic around--or outright search for the thieves. Getting in good with a church is always a good idea.
Feriin 07-19-05, 11:11 AM	Bad analogy. Blood and plasma replenish themselves. Time passes at a fixed rate for all of us regardless of our choices. XP must be re-earned. I hate to break the news to you but time is not a fixxed phenomina. As with XP, blood must be remade, or re earned as it was..
DMDaddy 07-19-05, 11:56 AM	BEFORE: I never allowed much magic in magic shops. Scrolls and Potions were redily available. But others were rare. NOW: by using Table 5:1 DMGpg135 (character wealth by lvl) I can maintain a good balance. I only allow characters to amass wealth according to that table. Therefore I can offer most magic items at the shop at prices set according to the DMG. FOR EXAMPLE (according to table 5:1) a 5th lvl character should have around 9000 gp. They can't buy a whole heck of alot of magic with that money. When players go to the magic shop, I just give them the DMG and say, "What do you want?" Then I make a percentage roll to see if that item is available. Some items are very rare. Others are redily available. Few over +2. The occasional +3. The rare +4. I also listen to what players say. You'd be surprised how many times they will mention the item they really want. The thief always wants the ring of invis. So, I let him find it, or should I say earn it by fighting an Ogre who is wearing it or something like that.
pres_man 07-19-05, 12:00 PM	I go by city wealth in the DMG, but I almost always require some time to find/make/improve magic items. One problem I've noticed from some DMs is lack of down time for the PCs. If the PCs are in a metropolis for 2 months, they should be able to find or have made just about anything they can afford.
Chobemaster 07-19-05, 12:11 PM	I hate to break the news to you but time is not a fixxed phenomina. As with XP, blood must be remade, or re earned as it was.. LOL, let me know when you have a different perception of the flow of time based on personal choices, there, Buck Rogers. And replacing lost blood occurs, for example, in your sleep. Not the case w/ XP.
DM Denubis 07-19-05, 12:11 PM	Well, I'd like to say thanks to everyone who posted, on both sides. You've helped me gain a lot of insight, and I do understand where the other side is coming from now. So, all in all, success. ^^
Al2902 07-19-05, 01:34 PM	The magic shop argument is a board vintage, and I've strongly defended the analytical rationale behind magic shops many times. If people are really interested in the detail, I'm sure that other threads of dozens of pages will reveal longer posts, but I'll just deal with the three primary points: security, lack of supply and lack of demand. Security Whilst this is a superficially strong argument, it falters under several conditions. For one, an even moderately strong central government appreciates the serious danger of groups of people both able and willing to rob magic shops, and, likely, kill their defenders. I would assume that any such government and affiliated lawful or good associations would treat magic shop robbers in much the same way as a modern government would approach dangerous armed bank robbers. Robbing a magic shop is a sure-fire way to get on to a most wanted list. Could it be done? Sure. Banks can and do get robbed in real life; magic shops could be robbed in a fantasy setting. Yet the security argument alone does not defeat the notion of magic shops. Lack of Supply Not under the default campaign settings. I can appreciate that some people want to tweak the magic level in their world, but under the core assumptions there is no shortage of supply. Magic is not rare. Fully half of ordinary villages have a resident mage, and nearly all will have a spellcasting cleric or druid; one-third have a sorceror. Wizards are more prevalent in the default fantasy setting than lawyers in the real world. Nor does the unwillingness to expend XP necessarily form an argument: the pecuniary advantages are monumental. The profit margin on a single +1 sword - 1,000 gold pieces - is probably roughly equal to the entire lifetime's earnings for a typical peasant; or several years' salary for a skilled professional. The crafting wizard can sell one item per year, spend a week hunting goblins to recoup his XP and live out the remaining fifty-one weeks in opulent leisure. Lack of Demand The strongest superficial argument is actually the most self-defeating. Under market conditions, a surplus of supply coupled with a lack of demand equates to a rapid fall in prices. So the logical conclusion of the "lack of demand" argument is that not only will magic shops exist, but there will aggressively market their product (to expand demand) and cut their prices viciously to stimulate consumption. If the crafting wizard has to spend the entirety of *two* weeks crafting and gaining XP in order to gain his luxurious lifestyle, this is still pretty worthwhile. Thus, one can only assume that the DMG prices are the market prices, and that any lack of demand is either negated by major magic item consumption, or offset by supply constrictions (guilds, regulation and the like). Modelling the DnD economy upon anything approaching a functional market economy demonstrates that magic shops exist. This is not anachronistic - although medievals did not grasp the theories of market economics, this does not mean that they did not function. Basic principles of trade and exchange date from the most ancient of civilisations. There is no serious and sustainable argument that, using the default level of magic, can contend that some form of "magic items market" does not exist. Admittedly, this will not take the guise of a MageMart, but ruling out MageMart does not preclude magic shops per se.
Gedrin 07-19-05, 01:49 PM	While you might have Warmages, and Spellswords, no one would ever bother to develop a PrC that had to do with enchanting items to help solve this problem. After all, a professional enchanter PrC isn't nearly as practical as a Rage Mage.
chrisnd 07-19-05, 02:13 PM	In a campaign that I finished being a PC in about a year ago, the DM allowed a magic shop. It was in the "city" of Sigil. It had nearly everything one could desire. But the DM was smart, in the fact that he put all the good stuff that he didn't want introduced into the campaign out of our price range. Honestly, to tell you the truth, it cheapened the magic items that I had. In fact, by the time I was 8th level, my paladin had a Holy Avenger already. It was a little on the magic highend. But it wasn't the shop that added to the excessive wealth. In the current campaign that I am running, I have not introduced any magic shops. That has been limited by the campaign itself, as the party just hasn't been in towns large enough to support a magic economy on par with the more expensive stuff. The group was in two farming villages of about 500 residents. No magic shop in either case. The party was in a small coastal village of about 700 residents. No magic shop there. The party did go to a rather large port city in the southern reaches of Veluna (Greyhawk) that had close to 4,000 residents and a booming import/export trade economy, but no one actually asked about finding a magic shop (of which there was one in the city). They just didn't ask. My point is, you can take two approaches in your campaign. Have a magic shop, but if you don't want a particular thing availabe, say it is either sold out, or completely out of the groups' price range for the current wealth they have. Or, keep the towns and villages that the group visits too small in such a way as to not be able to support a magic-item economy. Heck, farmers don't really need a scythe +2, now do they?
Ut-Napishtim 07-19-05, 02:22 PM	Good thing none of the PC's foes think of this, then. If something can be made assault-proof/ completely deterring, that's what BBEG's would do. Well, I don't see how having your trouser snake fall off makes a place impegnable (well, not that kind of impregnable anyway - unless you're talking about the local wenches,) and Red Wizards' ritual magic takes a lot of time IIRC. Not to mention that I don't set my peeps up to go against them. Although I'd imagine the Red Wizards' stronghold in Thay is nigh-impregnable. I mean, they are a legendary brotherhood of mages after all, but I'm not big into FR so I couldn't say with any certainty.
rbrt_Spade 07-19-05, 02:44 PM	well thier is the gp limit my friends-anything mundant/magicial is likly to be thier to buy well i let pcs buy magic idems but more expensive ones must be ordered it depends on your dm & world the core assumes magic is common and the bumkin dont say whats a wizard but you can change that with the low/high magic thing would magic idems be for sale at 1/2 price in a high magic world because everyone basicly has a spellcasting level(even the shopkeeper) :)
gleep 07-19-05, 02:52 PM	A magic item is a luxury item. All through history there has been a demand for luxury items and all through history there have been people that supplied the demand. Even when that demand included the risk of dismemberment, death, and extreme punishment. Deterrents that, to me at least, seem much more severe than a few hundred XP. In today's world, there's not a single "commoner" that can afford the likes of a lear jet, 200' yacht, a centerfold on each arm, a bengal tiger, or, for that matter, the newest mercedes. But, gosh, there's people selling them and living quite nicely. Heck, you can buy a decomissioned Russian diesel submarine if you have about $750,000 (sorry, kiddos, the torpedoes are extra). Heck, more than 90% of this world's population can't afford the computer you are using to access this very website... much less the amount of luxury time you have to puruse these boards and goof around with something that has as little to survival as a game. On the other hand, believe it or not, there are items that cost quite a bit in 1st-world countries than in 3rd world countries. An AK-47 is pretty darn expensive (not to mention risky to own) in America. In other countries you can have one for the cost of a chicken. Whether there is a magic shoppe, or even a magic mart, in a campaign has nothing to do with economics, real or fantasy, and everything to do with the DM's desire. (The arguments given against them show that as much as anything.) If the DM doesn't want any silver dragons in his campaign, then by gosh there's no silver dragons. If the DM wants a magic shoppe in every medium-size or larger city, then by gosh there will be one. No justification is needed. :D --gleep
Arrowhen 07-19-05, 03:08 PM	In today's world, there's not a single "commoner" that can afford the likes of a lear jet, 200' yacht, a centerfold on each arm, a bengal tiger, or, for that matter, the newest mercedes. But, gosh, there's people selling them and living quite nicely. Heck, you can buy a decomissioned Russian diesel submarine if you have about $750,000 (sorry, kiddos, the torpedoes are extra). Yes, those items are available for purchase. But how many Learjet shops, yacht shops, centerfold shops or bengel tiger shops do you see in the average town? ;)
Lord Ian Stark 07-19-05, 03:21 PM	If the DM doesn't want any silver dragons in his campaign, then by gosh there's no silver dragons. If the DM wants a magic shoppe in every medium-size or larger city, then by gosh there will be one. No justification is needed. :D --gleep :clap: Well said. Security Whilst this is a superficially strong argument, it falters under several conditions. For one, an even moderately strong central government appreciates the serious danger of groups of people both able and willing to rob magic shops, and, likely, kill their defenders. I would assume that any such government and affiliated lawful or good associations would treat magic shop robbers in much the same way as a modern government would approach dangerous armed bank robbers. Robbing a magic shop is a sure-fire way to get on to a most wanted list. Could it be done? Sure. Banks can and do get robbed in real life; magic shops could be robbed in a fantasy setting. Yet the security argument alone does not defeat the notion of magic shops. Well said here to. If people believe something can be robbed isn't feasable to have then you better go and revamp your entire game setting under that rediculous assumption. Just because you (Not meaning anyone in particular) can't understand how to magically set up a simple defense around a place that sells a few magic items is the fault of your lack of knowledge of D&D magic and imagination.
Lord Ian Stark 07-19-05, 03:23 PM	Yes, those items are available for purchase. But how many Learjet shops, yacht shops, centerfold shops or bengel tiger shops do you see in the average town? ;) Ah but information can go anywhere. Just because noone sells something in a town does't mean they don't have a clue on where to get one.
Gedrin 07-19-05, 03:24 PM	There's at least one place that sells jets in my metro area, probably more, but I stopped at one. Actually found a place that sells yatchs, and this isn't even a coastal area. It's a bit illegal to have a tiger around here, but I can buy a horse that costs more than a nice car about 3 miles from where I'm sitting. Not quite a $60k tiger, but I'm betting the nice horses (and tigers) aren't sold online. That's just in looking at the shops online, listed in my metro areay, and it took just a few minutes to find. I'm sure people with lots of exposure to the world of lots-o-money would have even better luck pointing out where to buy luxury items. Still, even I know where the local Farari dealer is. So, in answer to the question of "how many shops"... At least one of each. Of course, I live in large metro area in a very wealthy country.
VirgilCaine 07-19-05, 04:19 PM	On the other hand, believe it or not, there are items that cost quite a bit in 1st-world countries than in 3rd world countries. An AK-47 is pretty darn expensive (not to mention risky to own) in America. In other countries you can have one for the cost of a chicken. --gleep If one has a Class III NFA permit (meaning months of waiting, the right state, and $200 for the transfer tax, as well as being a law-abiding citizen above 21 years of age, and having a top local official's signature on a form proving you are of good character) you can buy a machine gun (or a silencer or a sawed-off firearm). It's a matter of time and effort, not expense. They are, however, very expensive. $1000 for a "no-name" SMG like a Cobray, with the rarer and niftier it is raising the price. For $20,000 you could buy almost any common machine. Non-registered machine guns, obviously, are risky to buy or use in a crime.
Chobemaster 07-19-05, 05:53 PM	[QUOTE=Al2902] Security Whilst this is a superficially strong argument, it falters under several conditions. For one, an even moderately strong central government appreciates the serious danger of groups of people both able and willing to rob magic shops, and, likely, kill their defenders. I would assume that any such government and affiliated lawful or good associations would treat magic shop robbers in much the same way as a modern government would approach dangerous armed bank robbers. Robbing a magic shop is a sure-fire way to get on to a most wanted list. Could it be done? Sure. Banks can and do QUOTE] Argument by fiat isn't very compelling. The resources required to adequately secure a magic shop wipe out the returns. And in most campaign worlds, comparison to the US law enforcement system is a prettly long reach. A better model would the the robber-baron model in Columbia or the warlordism seen in Afghanistan prior to the US invasion (arguably still, that's outside the scope of the discussion), where those who have the power do essentially whatever they want. That's much more comparable to a world w/ high level PC's and lvl 1 commoners than the US where citizens are pretty much all subject to the law equally. And do dragons, doppelgangers, githyanki raiders, djiin, or ethereal filchers really care about being on some city's "wanted list?" Seems unlikely.
crossbow 07-19-05, 06:20 PM	To my mind, having or not having magic shops has less to do with the economics of magical creation than with they type of setting you are trying to create. If you have a setting with a strong central government, say imperial Rome, than sure, go with magic shops. The wealthy had money to spend and the government had the resources to encourage economic growth and development and as a consequence, luxury items. If you have a fudal setting like dark ages Britton or Norse Viking culture where every little king and ruler was out for themselves, central government was non existant (except for the church, sometimes) and petty little wars tore the place apart constantly, than no, magic shops don't make much sense. The rich and powerful may have mages as retainers, but they won't be setting up shop anywhere. the production of magic items will be strictly controlled, making them rare by nature. There are a multitude of other settings that are either for or against the magic shop but really, it comes down to what will work best for your campaign. If you are running dark and gritty, a magic shop is probably a bad idea. If you are running a middle ground campaign, maybe have potions and simple items for sale and larger things by commission. And if you are running a high magic campaign, than certainly, throw in the magic shop and let the characters have at. Just try and make sure that it's consistant with your world.
pres_man 07-19-05, 07:13 PM	What is needed to run a magic shop that would almost never be stolen from. A couple of followers and a pair of ring gates. Sure the ring gates are expensive, but a powerful mage should have the money for them. Have one follower running the shop. They take orders and money, They go into the back and pass the order (on piece of paper) and the money through the ring to the other follower who is at the mage's tower, which is warded by all kinds of protection/anti-scry spells. If the item is on hand, he passes it through the rings back to the shop. If not then he takes the order and gives it to the mage. The only thing to steal in the shop of value is one of the ring gates. Which by itself isn't very useful and kind of dangerous, since the mage can send a fireball through it and hit you. As the mage becomes more wealthy he can hire more followers to open more shops within 100 miles of his tower. Pretty soon there is a mage mart in every large town in the immediate area. He would also probably train other mages and have them make items for his mage marts. Heck in a metropolis have several mage marts, ones in the bad sections for purchasing magic items gotten by questionable means and ones in the wealth sections to take special orders, or sell the items they got from the bad sections.
Lord Ian Stark 07-19-05, 07:18 PM	Chobemaster according to your response on security it would not be feasable to have anything of value in one area as it would just be taken. The D&D world has had magic for a long time and knows how to use it to protect an area against those who seek to pilage it. Forget a magic shop for now and just focus on what your saying about how all these creatures can just go wherever they want and take what they want without a fight or defense. If this were true, then how do towns exists in D&D? Surely in a decent sized city there is a plethora of magic items amongst the populace (We'll assume that they're are no buying or selling these items as that is taboo :rolleyes: ). Even if only one in ten people have a magical item of some sort. Ever see an NPC's gear NOT have a magical item in the many D&D books (Including core!!!)? So why aren't these establishments just destroyed and pilaged according to your view? What about all the gold/platinum that these places have amongst the populace? As you see your argument is void. (Unless you play in a gameworld that has no cities/towns or areas of where creatures amass any type of "wealth or items of wealth.")
Lord Ian Stark 07-19-05, 07:23 PM	What is needed to run a magic shop... This is exactly how one of the DM's does his shop. There is a cranky low level mage running the "Shop." Basically he sat at the counter and didn't like his job as he wanted to be anywhere but there. (Wow a guy that doesn't like his job, how wierd. :P )
VirgilCaine 07-19-05, 08:30 PM	This is exactly how one of the DM's does his shop. There is a cranky low level mage running the "Shop." Basically he sat at the counter and didn't like his job as he wanted to be anywhere but there. (Wow a guy that doesn't like his job, how wierd. :P ) A guy who doesn't like dealing with "idiot" tank-types or shifty thiefy types.
AntiDjinn 07-19-05, 08:52 PM	A magic item is a luxury item. All through history there has been a demand for luxury items and all through history there have been people that supplied the demand. Even when that demand included the risk of dismemberment, death, and extreme punishment. Deterrents that, to me at least, seem much more severe than a few hundred XP. In today's world, there's not a single "commoner" that can afford the likes of a lear jet, 200' yacht, a centerfold on each arm, a bengal tiger, or, for that matter, the newest mercedes. But, gosh, there's people selling them and living quite nicely. Heck, you can buy a decomissioned Russian diesel submarine if you have about $750,000 (sorry, kiddos, the torpedoes are extra). Even the guy selling subs does not have a submart with submaries lining the shelves. He probably has no sort of storefront at all, but cuts deals and arranges for goods to be delivered. He is a broker, not a shopkeeper. Yes, there has always been a demand for high-end items, but such has not inevitably lead to shops. Every king needs a crown, but none of them pop down to Regimart and get theirs. The mere notion of wearing a crown "off the shelf" would be appalling. Certainly there is not shortage of demand -- many who would be king -- but there certainly would be a shortage of those who feel an item obtained this way is appropriate or legitimate. Where do these items come from? They are custom made to order; either your royal accoutrements were custom made for you or for your ancestor. High end magic items (beyond potions and such) would most logically be made to order or you would go through a broker who has access to items or knows someone who does, but who does not maintain a costly and risky storefront. Both buyer and seller benefit when the same of high end items is either custom or via brokerage rather than hit or miss mechandising.
Xychotic 07-19-05, 09:00 PM	Antidjinn is definitely believably correct here. A real "magic shop" is an anachronism in a fantasy setting and completely unbelievable given the mechanics of item creation. Such items are the ferrarris and lambourginis of the setting, hand-made and ridiculously expensive. The most you could conceivably get for a decent magic shop is a potion, trinket, and scroll seller. Even then, he'd have to have a decent array of power under his own belt to deal with the level of theives that would try to relieve him of such lucrative goods. Items beyond the power (and cost) of the easy consumables are far too precious and (theoretically) rare to be sitting on a store shelf waiting for a tourist (Adventurer) to pick them up. Brokers are the most likely dealers of magic items, and though they may have a shop with some magic trinkets, anything really worth getting would be special order. Not a shop, at best, a catalogue.
Feriin 07-19-05, 10:54 PM	LOL, let me know when you have a different perception of the flow of time based on personal choices, there, Buck Rogers. And replacing lost blood occurs, for example, in your sleep. Not the case w/ XP. Holy crap Buck Rogers, haven't heard that in like 25 years or so ( I was 3 then). Here is a little Physics lession for you.. Time is relative to the observer. The speed of light is constant. Pick up a Physics book, you might learn something. Oh one more thing I would you like to define Time without using the word time in its definition.
SeidonVanDolf 07-20-05, 12:21 AM	Everyone has an opinion on this one and so here's mine. In a world where the gathering and selling of magic items is important enough that people risk their lives and their fortunes to gather them then magic shops should exist. Now I'm not saying that every Five and Dime you come along should have magic items for sale but in a large city where adventurers are commonly passing through a good mint could be made from the industry. If magic items weren't meant to be bought then they wouldn't come with a market price in the books. They also wouldn't be easily crafted by any mage or divine caster of a decent level who possesses the proper Item Creation Feats. As was said, all Wizards are not adventurers in fact most aren't. And what happens to the magic items that adventurers sell or trade if they do not wind up back on the shelf? And for those who want to keep some real control of the game and keep magic items at a realistic level I have a few suggestions that work well for me and mine. There is an inflation in price. No store sells what they bought at exactly what they paid for it. They wouldn't make a profit. We use as little as a 10% increase to as much as a 50-60% increase. It depends on who the buyers are and who the sellers are. The snooty elf selling to the brawny dwarf may well bolster the cost a bit where another dwarf might give a little discount (from his normal prices, not the item's actual value) especially if they are clanmates. And if the players say "Hey a Ring of Sustenance doesn't cost that much in the book" you can look at them and say "the car at the dealership didn't cost the guys you bought it from as much as you paid for it either but that's how business goes". Doing things this way allows two big things to come into play. One, it teaches the players that roleplay matters and they can't just go around being jerks to everyone and expect cheap and easily found merchandise. And two, it demonstrates the real difference between the shop that has a very limited supply of level 1 to 2 enhancement bonus items by comparison to what they walk out of a dungeon with. It adds some degree of realism to the game and adds some appreciation of magic items.
AntiDjinn 07-20-05, 02:01 AM	I am not sure if this has already been mentioned in this thread, but one other alternative to the "inevitable" magemart that still takes all economic and social factors into account would be auction houses. D&D-Bay instead of magemart anyone? This would make sale of magic items (as well as other high-end merchandise such as spellbooks, masterwork items, art, and lots of raw alchemical reagents) an event rather than a store. Depending on the game, auctions could be held weekly, biweekly, monthly, etc. in a given city (actions of mundane items could happen every day). Security would be less of an issue because items would not sit on a shelf week after week; they would be on display only during certain periods (customers wishing a closer look or more details on a particular item could make an appointment with the manager). Once an auction is closed then one way or another the item is off the auctioneer's hands (items that get no bids are returned to the owner). For mages crafting items this would mean they would not also have to be shopkeepers because someone else does the selling. The percentage the auction house takes would probably amount to less outlay than the cost of running a business. A mage putting an item up for auction will have to pay a deposit, plus the cost of an identify or if he uses that auction house frequently he may put up a one-time bond. For adventurers looking to fence "loose" items they have brought back from their last grave robbing party, auction houses are certainly a better deal than standard shops. A given merchant may not have the cash on hand to buy an item off the party, so he may only be able to take the item on consignment. If a merchant does purchase an item the seller will only get about half the market value (the merchant intends to sell it for the full listed value). Items taken on cosignment may take a long time to sell and the character will have to keep checking in to see if it sold; with an auction house there is a definite date at which the item will go on the block. The percentage taken by an auction house will generally be much less than what you would loose selling the item to a merchant. In fact, if there are several people who want the item and they get into a bidding war the final sale price may be more than the market value even after the house's cut. Only finding a buyer yourself and making the sale directly will consisitently yield a higher profit margin than an auction house, but at a much higher demand on character time. Costs to bring an item to auction: You would pay for an identify if you claim the item has any properties that are not readily obvious. Alternately, you could put up a bond as crafters who sell at the house do, but you would only do this if you sell at the same house frequently. You would also have to sign a register and leave enough info that you can be contacted if the item somehow turns out to be cursed or if someone claiming to be the rightful owner shows up.
AntiDjinn 07-20-05, 02:02 AM	For DMs using auction houses make for some interesting game options. They may be open ("called") auctions or may be silent with written bids. Silent seems more likely because a given person may not want everyone to know what items he is bidding on or has obtained. Auction houses also solve the problem of the DMG being treated like a catalog with characters waving gold equal to the listed cost of an item and expecting it to appear; with auctioned items characters will have to hear about the item and go to the auction house and register to bid. The listed cost may or may not be the final price because multiple people may be bidding; if you really want the item in a called auction you have better bid high enough to scare off other bidders. In a sealed auction you will want to bid high enough to have a good chance of getting the item without overspending. Also, it can be a setting for game hooks. The party could be hired by a wizard to bid on an item that he can't openly bid on. They are to obtain the item no matter the cost as they will be reimbursed. Too bad someone else is there out bid them. Or perhaps they get the item but then find themselves shadowed by people unknown who seemed to have picked up their trail at the auction house.
Gedrin 07-20-05, 03:44 AM	While I do think, with the demographics and rules presented in the core books, the sale of magic items is pretty much a no brainer in any large city, I don't think anyone's keeping a "stock" of items. Enchanter is probably a very common profession for a wizard, right up there with Diviner. I don't see these people stocking thousands of GP worth of stuff, but rather having their services available for enchantment or regular casting. You can go to a "magic item shop" request magic spigots or lamps, pay in advance, and a week later they're delivered. It's all custom craft work, much like custom furnature studios. The market isn't big enough to support a large stock of items, or an Enchanter that works 24X7. However, the Enchanter can work 1 day, make the item that costs 1000gp to make, and then sell it for some hideous amount of money. Even though the Enchanter may only work one day every two weeks, he's still coming away with an amount of cash that boggles the minds of even some adventurers. Certainly it's not something that everyone wants, but the new summer palace has 50 bedrooms, and the crown prince wants running water in each one. Ka-ching.
Al2902 07-20-05, 07:13 AM	[QUOTE=Al2902] Security Whilst this is a superficially strong argument, it falters under several conditions. For one, an even moderately strong central government appreciates the serious danger of groups of people both able and willing to rob magic shops, and, likely, kill their defenders. I would assume that any such government and affiliated lawful or good associations would treat magic shop robbers in much the same way as a modern government would approach dangerous armed bank robbers. Robbing a magic shop is a sure-fire way to get on to a most wanted list. Could it be done? Sure. Banks can and do QUOTE] Argument by fiat isn't very compelling. The resources required to adequately secure a magic shop wipe out the returns. And in most campaign worlds, comparison to the US law enforcement system is a prettly long reach. A better model would the the robber-baron model in Columbia or the warlordism seen in Afghanistan prior to the US invasion (arguably still, that's outside the scope of the discussion), where those who have the power do essentially whatever they want. That's much more comparable to a world w/ high level PC's and lvl 1 commoners than the US where citizens are pretty much all subject to the law equally. And do dragons, doppelgangers, githyanki raiders, djiin, or ethereal filchers really care about being on some city's "wanted list?" Seems unlikely. If "those who have the power do essentially whatever they want", then I would argue that robbing magic shops is the least of the campaign world's concerns. Not only is any luxury item vendor, auction house or bank likely to continually under threat, but in a world where teleporting high level characters can effectively defeat the resources of government, you have a formula for instability and permanent anarchy. In such a world, then yes, magic shops would not exist. However, this is a far cry from the default setting. Moreover, even in such a setting, there is a possibility that other good or lawful characters will act as a counter-point to these raiders. I cannot believe that a lawful good church or paladin's order would stand by whilst banditry operates on such a massive scale. Of course you can play in a setting without any formalised institutions whatsoever, but this has far wider campaign implications than mere magic shops. Indeed, sociologically speaking, the presence of high level bandits makes stronger institutions more likely. As a moderately prosperous merchant, without high level characters, you can get by by hiring a few mercenaries to guard your caravans; with wizards who can take out an entire caravan guard with a single fireball, it suddenly becomes highly worthwhile to club together with the other merchants to found some form of defense league which employs high level resources. Taking the premise that government's first role is to protect citizens, where the citizens are under greater threat, they will be far more willing to financially support strong government. Failing that, they will at the very least commission high level characters (adventurers?) to tackle high level bandits. As to whether dragons and so forth care about the "most wanted" list, I'd say very much so. If the city is known to hire high level PCs to hunt down and kill dragons, promising, say, half the hoard, this is a major deterrent to wantonly raiding luxury item shops. Indeed, the lure of such a hoard would mean that neutral and even evil characters may join in such hunts without the economic requirements to meet their demands. One can premise no government, no institutions, no "hired guns", no high level lawful or good characters and no system of protection for the ordinary citizenry. In such a situation, magic shops are the least of your worries. In a default setting, however, such parameters are moot.
R-man 07-20-05, 07:30 AM	I have magic shops in my campaign but they are not MagicMarts. I run them much like a modern real estate office is run. ie. they have plenty of drawings and discriptions of the products that are available but they don't carry anything on site. They merrily act as go-betweens and charge a commission to the clients (the Pcs) for tracking down the magical items that they are looking for. The larger the city/town/etc the larger and more varied the selection i.e. I use the GP limit rules for settlement size. This means that sometimes the items in question are simply not available or will have to be commissioned to be made. Depending on the region and the expense of the item the time that the Pc's will have to wait for a item can range from a couple of days to a couple of months or longer depending. Going to a major city and asking to purchase a Mirror of Mental Prowess will require sending away to the largest Metropolis on the continent (we don't make that here sorry) and will include travel time, then I will decide if there is one available immediately or if one needs to be commissioned, then I figure out how many mages are capable of creating such an item and how busy their schedules are. i.e. the entire purchase can (if I want it to) become another Roleplaying opportunity or can be quickly handled off-camera with some rolls and the Players told how long the wait will be. Almost always it would be much faster to simply make the item yourself (assuming that you are capable of doing so) then to buy it and that is the guideline that I use. Tracking down powerful and rare magical items that are available for sale takes time and money...but it is possible. If something has value then it can be purchased, always, the only question is what is required to purchase it with. You may need to start going on quests to get rare ingredients for the mage or dealing with some of his errands so that he has the time to create the item that you are so desperate to have.
Lord Ian Stark 07-20-05, 08:48 AM	The most you could conceivably get for a decent magic shop is a potion, trinket, and scroll seller. Must...reframe ...from...posting...DOH, ok here we go. For everyone that thinks it's just fine and dandy to sell potions, wonderous items, and scrolls to the commoners (because they are cheap) but not weapons and armor (Because they are too expensive) I will show you something. Potions go from 50GP to 3000GP. Scrolls go from 12GP 5SP to over 160,000 GP depending on whats on them. Wonderous items go from 50GP to 200,000GP. So if you think those prices are cheap to commoners, then you should read the DMG again.
pres_man 07-20-05, 09:00 AM	I just had a thought, instead of having PCs sell magic items, tell the players that they can use the magic items that they don't want to be the material/financial part of crafting new items. Say there is some process that drains the old items and destroys them, while creating the new items. This isn't the only way to make new items, but it is often the most effective. Then you don't have to worry about what happens to all the items the party sells, since they have been destroyed to make new items that the party buys. Just require that it takes time for this process to occur.
Chobemaster 07-20-05, 09:02 AM	Holy crap Buck Rogers, haven't heard that in like 25 years or so ( I was 3 then). Here is a little Physics lession for you.. Time is relative to the observer. The speed of light is constant. Pick up a Physics book, you might learn something. Oh one more thing I would you like to define Time without using the word time in its definition. You have completely derailed. The nature of time itself is completely irrelevant to the concept of opportunity costs. With respect to the actual discussion, if someone pays you for your time to participate in a medical experiment, and it takes, say, 3 hours, then you have neither gained nor lost (unless it's a pretty jacked up experiment) lifespan...those exact same 3 hours would have passed if you had not participated in the experiement and instead surfed the internet, slept, went fishing, or what have you...no resource of an individual is marginally "consumed" by participating in the medical research. One can't put "time in a bottle" so to speak, to use those 3 hours when you're running late for a flight.
Vrykolas2k 07-20-05, 05:27 PM	Most magi don't want to spend that much XP for mere gold. So, though I might have a shoppe with an occasional {randomly rolled} item... shoppes that sell a plethora of items simply don't exist in my worlds. This isn't a video game...
VirgilCaine 07-20-05, 06:30 PM	Most magi don't want to spend that much XP for mere gold. So, though I might have a shoppe with an occasional {randomly rolled} item... shoppes that sell a plethora of items simply don't exist in my worlds. This isn't a video game... Mere gold? We're not just talking gold here, we're talking an extremely high return on your investment here. A wizard could work for a few days a year and experiment or lounge for the rest of the time.
Eightbitmage 07-20-05, 07:11 PM	Some of the people on this board think its worth doing, some dont. Those who think its worth doing would open a shop if they were wizards. Weither or not there is a market: Once again those who support the idea of magic shops would buy magic items, those who dont, probably wouldnt. So it all comes down to this: If you give the PCs the amount of treasure it says in the DMG, and the NPCs are equipped with what they should be according to thier level, you have enough of a supply and a demand from that.
Cymraegmorgan 07-20-05, 07:41 PM	Now, I haven't been on these forums for an age or anything, but I've seen a lot of DMs complaining that players look for the magic shop, as if it were a horrible thing. I've seen people say "The munchkin is the one looking for the magic shop." And I've also seen people applauding such comments. I'm befuddled. Besides in a low magic environment, can anyone give a decent reason as to why there wouldn't be one? Besides, of course, "I'm the DM and I don't want the players to have wealth according to their level because it means that I can't slap them down with creatures of two challenge ratings lower than they are." Let me tell you how I look at it. For wizards (Not the coastal variety, I assure you.), magic is just another trade. Yes, saying "I'm a wizard." commands more respect than saying "I'm a mason.", but not every wizard adventures. In fact, most don't. In a place where adventurers are common, such as large cities, magic shops are most likely going to spring up. There's a demand, and therefore, money to be made in the industry. Who has the most expencable income? Adventurers. What are they going to spend that money on? Magic items. Once again, this is just my view, and as some will tell you, I am a min/maxer. However, I'm also a roleplayer, and so this statement has always bugged me a bit. If someone could supply insight, that'd be a wonderful thing. I run a CS that is high magic. Magic can be bought almost anywhere. But, the DMG gives me a very good guideline for determining what magic is available in those shops, whether in a thorp or a city. Page 137 of the DMG3.5 gives GP limits for population centers. A magic shop in a thorp(40gp limit) will be selling lots of low level scrolls, but finding Universal Solvent there is going to be difficult. A magic shop in a large city(40,000gp limit), minor and medium wondrous items will be plentiful, but good luck finding a Cubic gate.
Lord Ian Stark 07-20-05, 08:06 PM	I just had a thought, instead of having PCs sell magic items, tell the players that they can use the magic items that they don't want to be the material/financial part of crafting new items. Say there is some process that drains the old items and destroys them, while creating the new items. This isn't the only way to make new items, but it is often the most effective. Then you don't have to worry about what happens to all the items the party sells, since they have been destroyed to make new items that the party buys. Just require that it takes time for this process to occur. Yes sir. This is what the artificer does in Eberron.
SweetJay 07-20-05, 08:13 PM	ive always agreed with magic shops, but they do present the problem of well... why dont they just get broken into all the time... having too many magic items "on the shelf" is gonna come with attracting unwanted attention, the way ive always dodged this as a dm is to have brokers and dealers that dont have the products themselves, they are simply businessmen who take half payment ahead of time, and then the product is shipped in from the "magicmart." Even make it a "super corporation" that one can get in touch with a "salesperson" in major cities that can get a hold of virtually anything, obscure magic items requiring a middle man mark up. being a businessminded person myself, ive always ran my campaigns with an attitude of if theres money to be made off of a party of lvl 15 guys that just looted a dragon (won the lottery) then there will be someone takin advantage of that.
Unca_Laguna 07-20-05, 09:43 PM	Wow, I’ve been running a high-magic campaign for the past two months and not even realizing it. I just assumed that was how D&D was supposed to be. How do you run a low-magic campaign? It just seemed logical to me that there would be a magic shop and wizards running around ready to cast up to 6th level spells for you. This champain could be, like, ten times easier for me if I had low-magic. P.S. I solved the "stealing from magic shop" problem by subtly threatening my players. I told them, "I don't want to metagame or anything, but your character would know this burglary isn't going to work." I left it at that.
Lord Ian Stark 07-20-05, 10:12 PM	To run an acutual Low-Magic game that makes sense isn't as easy as people like to make you think. I don't mean "easy" like it's tough for the characters to survive I mean keeping magic items and spellcasters rare. The majority of the classes in D&D cast spells whether it's Divine or Arcane. To say there are barely any spellcasters or magic items available anywhere for purchase yet every NPC and PC you come across has some type of magical item or can cast spells makes the whole idea out of sync. In the end, this is Dungeons and Dragons and like spellcasters there are magic items a plenty. If you want to make a believable Low-Magic game then make sure you do it from all angles instead of just saying, "No magic item purchasing."
Lord Ian Stark 07-20-05, 10:15 PM	Wow, I’ve been running a high-magic campaign for the past two months and not even realizing it. I just assumed that was how D&D was supposed to be. I doubt your playing a High-Magic campaign. Don't start thinking that a few people saying they don't allow the sales of magical items think that there game world is any less magic inclusive than yours. They are just taking away the reality of the trade of these items so there PC's have to "earn" there magic items instead of purchasing them. What they do with all that gold they find in there games, I have no clue.
Eightbitmage 07-21-05, 12:08 AM	I think the reason magic shops dont get broken into is the same as the reason why really really rich people with big gemstones dont get their stuff stolen. In other words, it happens, but usually success is low. They are going to have guards, they are going to have traps, they arent going to have a selection of wands waiting below the counter where the candy would normally go. Really big stuff i imagine would take a bit of time to procure. While smaller stuff could be hidden in a bag of holding in a chest, on the astral plane. I'm sure an 18-24 int wizard can think of a few ways to keep his stuff safe, especially after 15th level.
Gedrin 07-21-05, 01:33 AM	While magic items are probably very valuable by weight, even compared to precious metals, I think the kinds of items would have a lot to do with the rate of attempted theft. If you've got an enchanter that runs a custom enchantment business, his lab might get robbed, for materials, but he'd have few items on hand. If you've got an enchanter catering to the most common needs, he's got stuff in stock, stuff that is commonly called for, but Continual Lanterns, Needles of Mending and Everflowing Spigots aren't exactly flashy items. The market for those items is much larger than the market for +3 Flaming Maces, not to mention that those are all highly affordable items compared to said weapon. Then there's the bit about items being custom manufactured. They'd likely have a maker's mark of some sort, making them easier to track. Theft of magic items is likely a fairly serious crime, even aside from the money involved. Of course, a vengeful enchanter is a bad enemy to have. Not because he can smite you, but because he can pay people with the promise of magic items, and that buys a lot of bounty hunter.
spoogemonkey 07-21-05, 10:52 AM	I don't use magic shops, per se... in my campaigns. Even in a bid city, I doubt that there would be enough business to support a shop. However, I have a small assortment of low level magic items available in Adventuring Supply Stores. I believe there would be enough business to support supply shops. It is only natural that adventurers that acquire low level magic items that are somehow not usable or not appropriate or not of immediate need and so, therefore, would want to barter those items for a) other needed supplies, or b) other magic items deemed to be more appropriate or useful. An archer might not need that flaming dagger he found nearly as much as he does.... chain mail, or a strength bow, or a horse... or healing potions. I only ran a potion shop once in a campaign..... and, yep, the party broke in later and cleaned it out. (Luckily, none of the potions were labeled.... causing some risk to the imbibers) So, I like the above ideas of using temples and guildhalls as fronts for selling. But even there I would never just have carte blanc on ANY magic item in the DMG. I will generally make +1 equivalent items commonly available, but, beyond THAT..... things get scarce. A wizard may have..... 2 items more powerful.... a store.... maybe just one.... Otherwise, they have to earn it adventuring. Or struggle to make themselves.
Unca_Laguna 07-21-05, 12:18 PM	the main reason why I decided to let my players buy from a magic shop is because there was really nothing else for them to spend money on. unless I'm missing something important. what do your players (speaking to everyone) spend money on if there is no magic shop? or are PCs intended to have hoards of treasure? also, if I wanted to run a mid-magic setting, how many high level casters would be in a metopolin city? I've already decided on at least one super-cleric NPC who is on standby with "true ressurection" in case the king dies. however, I was thinking of going so far as having a saying in my city, "the rich only die of old age".
Gilean 07-21-05, 12:19 PM	I doubt your playing a High-Magic campaign. Don't start thinking that a few people saying they don't allow the sales of magical items think that there game world is any less magic inclusive than yours. They are just taking away the reality of the trade of these items so there PC's have to "earn" there magic items instead of purchasing them. What they do with all that gold they find in there games, I have no clue.D&D, by core, is high-magic. So playing by the books does result in high-magic games.To run an acutual Low-Magic game that makes sense isn't as easy as people like to make you think. I don't mean "easy" like it's tough for the characters to survive I mean keeping magic items and spellcasters rare.To run an actual low-magic campaing is quite easy. Learn another rule system (almost any, there are suitable d20 variations, too) or make one. D&D does require heavy modding and especially balancing if you into combat-heavy games, so it would probably just be easier to learn something else. IMCs, the campaings, not dungeon crawls (which I find extremely boring), there are no magic shops. In the higher magic world, a kobold mage and alchemist can craft pretty powerful items, and the ancient (beyond ancient, far beyond) mountain dragon allied with players has a hoard with uncounted (by anyone else, that is) magic toys, among the coins. A few fey and harpies have shown inerest in dealing with some items, but usually in exchange, not for mere money. Also, most items carry drawbacks or restrictions of some sorts, or have limited charges.
rbrt_Spade 07-21-05, 12:23 PM	the main reason why I decided to let my players buy from a magic shop is because there was really nothing else for them to spend money on. unless I'm missing something important. what do your players (speaking to everyone) spend money on if there is no magic shop? or are PCs intended to have hoards of treasure? also, if I wanted to run a mid-magic setting, how many high level casters would be in a metopolin city? I've already decided on at least one super-cleric NPC who is on standby with "true ressurection" in case the king dies. however, I was thinking of going so far as having a saying in my city, "the rich only die of old age". i would agree with you, pcs spend gp on businesses with the profession/craft skill,castles,traps,houses,temples,save it,live on it...
wonlee76 07-21-05, 12:42 PM	the main reason why I decided to let my players buy from a magic shop is because there was really nothing else for them to spend money on. unless I'm missing something important. what do your players (speaking to everyone) spend money on if there is no magic shop? or are PCs intended to have hoards of treasure? also, if I wanted to run a mid-magic setting, how many high level casters would be in a metopolin city? I've already decided on at least one super-cleric NPC who is on standby with "true ressurection" in case the king dies. however, I was thinking of going so far as having a saying in my city, "the rich only die of old age". Well, my PCs tend to make their own magical items. They keep a stash on the side for ressurection purposes since I don't fudge dice rolls to keep a player alive. (Raise/Ress/True Ress costs a lot and no player likes losing levels so they're happy to keep 28k gold on the side in case of emergencies). They use money creatively to make contacts, purchase/build a base of operations, spend it on booze/women, or whatever their character would want to use the money for. Most players are adventurers for the money or glory or both. I'm sure the individual players should have something in mind as to why they want all this money other then "I want to buy a cooler sword." There's lots of things a player can do with money other then buying magical trinkets if a DM is flexible about it. The most common item purchased by a group that is non-magical is usually a base of operations plus costs improving the base of operations with traps and magical defenses. The 2nd most common thing purchased by my players are the costs for being raised/ressed/true ressed. ;)
Lord Ian Stark 07-21-05, 04:27 PM	I don't use magic shops, per se... in my campaigns. Even in a bid city, I doubt that there would be enough business to support a shop. So the PC's, enemies, NPC's, etc all have barely any magic items in your gameworld?
Rolston 07-22-05, 04:08 PM	I live in a Capitalistic society, where if there is a profit to be made… then someone is in business selling it. If it’s not illegal, then it’s sold in a shop of some sort. I fail to understand why such logic couldn’t apply in a “Fantasy” setting/game. Works in real life... :rolleyes:
Nyarlathotep 07-22-05, 06:31 PM	The feasibility of magic shops is entirely dependant on the setting. Things vary too much from campaign to campaign to be able to say definitively whether they are feasible or not. So really it is a matter of the tastes of the DM and players. Personally, I have tried both extremes, the "magemart" model and the "no magic shop at all" model and find that the model I like best is the one where there are no magic shops per se, but the PCs can convince other characters to make items for them. It acts as an incentive for adventure,( "If I take the quest this cleric is offering us, he'll be more inclined to make that holy sword I want"), it encourages the PCs to take their own craft feats without forcing them to do so, and it helps keep a check on munchkinism by giving me a bit more control over what items they can buy or sell. All in all, I think it's the best way to go about it.
Lord Ian Stark 07-22-05, 06:51 PM	I agree with the plot idea. If there is a chance to turn something into a mini-mission then by all means make it so. I just can't get passed the fact that everyone (PC's and NPC's alike) have magical items of some sort but noone is trading them. (Buying & selling) Comon people. Yes this is a game of make believe but you want to make it believable to a point. That's why there are rules for our game of make believe. If you try and go the route that the sale of magic items are illegal in your land so there are no shops or trade of them, I ask you to do research on what happened when the sale of alcohol was illegal or take a look at the drug situation.
Centauri 07-22-05, 07:12 PM	If you try and go the route that the sale of magic items are illegal in your land so there are no shops or trade of them, I ask you to do research on what happened when the sale of alcohol was illegal or take a look at the drug situation. Neat idea. You'd have clandestine meetings to buy and sell magic items which would be of questionable quality, if not cursed to the point of outright lethality. The prices would be sky high because of the risk involved in the trade. If the trade isn't busted, it would be due to high-level spells and wards or bribes to keep government diviners looking the other way. If it is busted, it might be by another group of criminals who want the loot and money (a la the movie The Usual Suspects) or it might be by the government, who would have a lot of legitimate, fully functional magical items on their side. If you "found" a magical item and wanted to keep it legally, you'd have to go and get it licensed, which would probably involve a lot of persuasion to keep the licensing officials from deciding it's stolen, confiscating the weapon, and tossing you in jail. Wow. So many possiblities. Thanks for the idea.
EvilDuck 07-22-05, 07:48 PM	I think what I'll implement in a campaign is that there's a city on the continent for whom a substantial amount of trade involves magic items, ranging from cheap, convenient items like enchanted smith's tools or an animated field plow to fancy trinkets for the aristocracy to adventurers' gear and stuff like that. There will be various guilds based on the types of magic items, and most of the workers will be magewrights, with the artificers and wizards running things. In most towns, they have an outpost stocked with a small selection of their magic items and whatever would be most useful to the people in that area, and then a catalog of all of the items the city has to offer. If the players want a specific item, they can look at the catalog and order it, and depending on what they pay for shipping, it'll be there in a few days to a few weeks.
Lord Ian Stark 07-22-05, 08:28 PM	I think what I'll implement in a campaign... Well said. The idea of magical items only useable for combat situations makes people not open there minds to a world full of magic as the D&D worlds are. Everyone keeps saying how in towns and cities there are no demand for magical weapons, armor, scrolls and potions. Only adventurers and the military need that stuff. For the rest of the population, simple magical household items that complete a chore by themselves and so forth would be common. Just because the DMG barely has any of these doesn't mean they don't exist. Magic items go beyond the hack-n-slash worth in D&D. Too many people don't see that. This is one of the things that makes Eberron so interesting to me as magic and technology advance not only weaponry but every day items and things to make life easier.
EvilDuck 07-22-05, 09:45 PM	Well said. The idea of magical items only useable for combat situations makes people not open there minds to a world full of magic as the D&D worlds are. Everyone keeps saying how in towns and cities there are no demand for magical weapons, armor, scrolls and potions. Only adventurers and the military need that stuff. For the rest of the population, simple magical household items that complete a chore by themselves and so forth would be common. Just because the DMG barely has any of these doesn't mean they don't exist. Magic items go beyond the hack-n-slash worth in D&D. Too many people don't see that. This is one of the things that makes Eberron so interesting to me as magic and technology advance not only weaponry but every day items and things to make life easier. Thank you. It only makes sense that in a world with magic availible, somebody's using it to better society.
gleep 07-22-05, 10:59 PM	Magic items go beyond the hack-n-slash worth in D&D. Too many people don't see that. This is one of the things that makes Eberron so interesting to me as magic and technology advance not only weaponry but every day items and things to make life easier. Agreed. And I'll expand on that: That vast majority of the rules in the books is directed primarily at point of view of playing an adventure game. The pricing of magical items, even the methods for creation, is not designed for a "logical" or "realistic" economic system but for playability. People think of the rules as presenting a coherent world, but the rules do not. The rules present a narow, tunnel-like view of the game world. The world as it applies to adventurers. The focus on adventures is why, when the focused is moved from adventurers and applied to more general concepts, the mechanics invariably break down. But back to buying/selling magic. If we step back from the "Adventurer" focus on the rules we can make a few assumptions for a civilization that has had a "fantasy/magic" oriented history. One thing that is often overlooked is that our attitudes on goods is based on a disposable model. We are used to an item quickly becoming obsolete or nonfunctional. The same is not true for our game setting. A permanent magic items lasts, pretty much, forever. So while there may not be ten little wizards in each village cranking out low-power items, the low power items that were created 1000 (or even 100) years ago are still there. There is a buildup of items. Population would tend to disperse the items, as well as accedental loss or breakage. But the town 3rd-level wizard doesn't have to supply everything for everyone. Lots of people will have their own stuff already, handed down through their families. A lot of these things would not be traded around since they'd be needed right where they are. But it is reasonable to assume that a group of adventurers recently returned from the Catacombs of Doom (tm) will be carrying back all sorts of goodies that could help out the town. Continual torches, ever-filled mugs, sinks-of-cleaning, etc. Look, a surplus! And a surplus will lead to trade. Of course, the game being adventure-focused, this doesn't happen. Who wants to risk their life for the magical equivalent of a toaster? The adventuerers come back with +1 swords, a couple mithril shields, a bunch of perl-studded tapestries and a bronze statue encrusted with emerald chips. But, somehow, selling off those perl-studded tapestries and the bronze statue is so much more believable, eh? :D The rules are focused on adventurers, on excitement, and a fun game. Which has the unfortunate side effect that when you try use the rules to figure out something as realistic as economy.... well, good luck. Might as well stick your head in a toaster. I've long-since determined my own way of dealing with the problem, though I won't go into it here since it's too much of a derailment. Anyway, once again, how magic is bartered is up to the DM and what he wants for his campaign. There's plenty of support in the rules (since they don't really support anything of this sort--nothing but a few implications and inferences) for whatever the DM wants. Me? Well, my characters will continue doing their best to strip any dungeon they happen across of every door they find. Doors are fairly easy to transport, no one tries to steal them, and a nice door can be worth a lot of gold! :D --gleep
Otto the Bugbear 07-22-05, 11:43 PM	The way I see magic shops existing is based entirely on the NPCs by population found in the DMG. If there are only a few of them, I'd randomly roll to see if they have any item creation feats. If a city has several casters capable of creating magic items, then that city will have magic items for sale/trade. I see the real problem lies in identifying magic items. Say a group of adventurers comes into town and they decide to sell 7 magic items (sword, axe, armor, wand, ring, bracers, boots). How exactly does the buyer know what he's getting? Of course there is detect magic, identify and analyze dweomer, but that takes time and resources that not all sellers are willing to wait for. A high sense motive skill may work, but with the kind of ranks a rogue can develop in bluff, I'm sure merchants would quickly learn not to trust adventurers. Also, if a city has a good sized population of casters, then the city will certainly also have magic at work for the populace (unless it was a more unsavory city). I also really like the ideas mentioned above in regards to this. Just a few quick items: Street lamps with continual flame (no more shadowy alleys) Wells with create water or purify water at will (always have clean water for entire populace. Dirty water is the cause of many plagues throughout history) Iceboxes (ray of frost) Unseen servants (street or home cleaners) Heck, even items that provide cure light wounds at will wouldn't cost a big city that much (wondrous item, caster level 1, spell level 1, command word activated: 1800 gp). What (good) city wouldn't want to spend tax monies on items like this? The only thing to worry about is theft, and making the item weigh an excessive amount, like 6000 pounds, should curb that by a bit. Cheers Otto :)
weasel fierce 07-23-05, 01:36 AM	I live in a Capitalistic society, where if there is a profit to be made… then someone is in business selling it. If it’s not illegal, then it’s sold in a shop of some sort. I fail to understand why such logic couldn’t apply in a “Fantasy” setting/game. Works in real life... :rolleyes: So if it works in an industrialized 21st century country, with readily available travel and communications, it should work in a medieval fantasy setting ? I'd like a cellphone please
pres_man 07-23-05, 02:05 AM	Actually in some ways it works better, I don't know how many times I wish I could greater telelport to the parents house.
Lord Ian Stark 07-23-05, 03:31 AM	Actually in some ways it works better, I don't know how many times I wish I could greater telelport to the parents house. And all this time I thought you still lived at home with your parents. :P
Rolston 07-23-05, 06:32 AM	So if it works in an industrialized 21st century country, with readily available travel and communications, it should work in a medieval fantasy setting ? I'd like a cellphone please Are you suggesting that in your fantasy game there is no means of wireless communication over distance? I can think of a few spells or items...
VirgilCaine 07-23-05, 09:32 AM	I live in a Capitalistic society, where if there is a profit to be made… then someone is in business selling it. If it’s not illegal, then it’s sold in a shop of some sort. I fail to understand why such logic couldn’t apply in a “Fantasy” setting/game. Works in real life... :rolleyes: Even if it IS illegal it is bought and sold. Supply and demand. So if it works in an industrialized 21st century country, with readily available travel and communications, it should work in a medieval fantasy setting ? I'd like a cellphone please It's a basic law of economics--supply and demand.
weasel fierce 07-23-05, 10:57 AM	Are you suggesting that in your fantasy game there is no means of wireless communication over distance? I can think of a few spells or items... That are available to every citizen and child ? Nope. It's a basic law of economics--supply and demand. Make it so in your game then
fafhrdthered333 07-23-05, 11:13 AM	Ok, I haven't read this entire thread, so this may or may not have been said. In my games, there can be found shops with minor magic items and maybe a few moderately powerful ones that were traded for or found. You'll never walk into one and see a keen flaming burst long sword. Why? It cost too much to keep the place secure. If all the shop has are some minor items and potions/scrolls and such, it's defendable. However, the pc's can usually commision a magic item through the owner. That way, they can still buy something they really want, and the shop doesn't have to worry about storing all these powerful items.
Temrek 07-23-05, 11:25 AM	The way I run a game is that creating magic items to sell is not worth it unless you allready have a seller. So if my players want to buy a magic item they cant go to a shop (there is none) but they can go to a spellcaster and ask to have it made.
Lord Ian Stark 07-23-05, 09:04 PM	The way I run a game is that creating magic items to sell is not worth it unless you allready have a seller. So if my players want to buy a magic item they cant go to a shop (there is none) but they can go to a spellcaster and ask to have it made. Oh so what happens to all of magical items that were already made for people since the beginning? Is magic a few years old or century's like the RAW states? Everyone has these magic items, they don't decay or get used up, (Not talking about potions and scrolls) and are littered throught the world. Yet noone buys or sells them. :rolleyes: As I said, that's fine if you don't want the PC's to buy magic items, but saying all the existing ones are never traded (Bought and Sold) is very unrealistic.
Lord Ian Stark 07-23-05, 09:09 PM	You'll never walk into one and see a keen flaming burst long sword. Why? It cost too much to keep the place secure. If all the shop has are some minor items and potions/scrolls and such, it's defendable. :thinks: So people only rob places that have extremely expensive and extravagant items? Also your idea of not having a high powered weapon in the store is flawed. Why isn't the mage that can make these weapons of mass destruction not in as much danger as his products? If I am a high leveled thief that only wants to steal expensive stuff like your post says, then, why don't they just capture the guy that could make many of these items. Better deal in my book. Also this would mean that all high level caster/creators should not be in your gameworld since they can be abducted as easily as that keen flaming burst long sword on the shelf. Things that make you go, hmmm.
VirgilCaine 07-23-05, 09:11 PM	Also your idea of not having a high powered weapon in the store is flawed. Why isn't the mage that can make these weapons of mass destruction not in as much danger as his products? It's a sword, not an infinite necklace of Fireballs.
Lord Ian Stark 07-23-05, 09:20 PM	It's a sword, not an infinite necklace of Fireballs. ? I assume this means that a keen flaming burst long sword is not a weapon of mass destruction? In the hands of an experienced fighter that sword is just that. If you are saying that a sword laying on a table unmanned is not a weapon of mass destruction, then neither is an infinite necklace of Fireballs or a bomb for that matter. But this is way off topic.
VirgilCaine 07-23-05, 09:58 PM	? I assume this means that a keen flaming burst long sword is not a weapon of mass destruction? In the hands of an experienced fighter that sword is just that. If you are saying that a sword laying on a table unmanned is not a weapon of mass destruction, then neither is an infinite necklace of Fireballs or a bomb for that matter. But this is way off topic. That's the skill of the user, not the deadliness of the weapon. Any commoner could hurt, if not kill even a mid-level party (or set some impressive fires in a city or whatever) using a necklace of fireballs, infinite or no.
Lord Ian Stark 07-23-05, 10:11 PM	That's the skill of the user, not the deadliness of the weapon. Any commoner could hurt, if not kill even a mid-level party (or set some impressive fires in a city or whatever) using a necklace of fireballs, infinite or no. What are we arguing here? That it wouldn't be feasable to capture the mage that could create many items compared to the item he made? I hope this isn't about what a weapon of mass destruction is? :rolleyes:
WitheringSolid 07-23-05, 10:40 PM	Magic shops are ok as long as its not one stop shopping, and even then what these shops should mostly have are items and ingredients to make magic items. For example: Your party wants to stock up on healing potions. They would have to head to an apothicary. Nothing as charming as walking into a dim lit shop that reeks with who knows what, stacks of bins with just about anything you might need to craft a potion yourself if you know how. There would ALWAYS be something bubbling somewear in the back ground. Healing potions would be in stock but specialty potions you may have to wait a week for them to be brewed etc. If you want to find a scoll, go to the stationary shop with all the various inks papers, parchments, spellbook components and the like. Have FUN with it :D
gleep 07-24-05, 01:24 AM	I live in a Capitalistic society, where if there is a profit to be made… then someone is in business selling it. If it’s not illegal, then it’s sold in a shop of some sort. I fail to understand why such logic couldn’t apply in a “Fantasy” setting/game. Works in real life... So if it works in an industrialized 21st century country, with readily available travel and communications, it should work in a medieval fantasy setting ? I'd like a cellphone please So any form of store, exchange or merchantile system didn't exist until modern times? Economies have been scarcity-based since the dawn of agriculture (which is when economy, generally, is thought to have become meaningful). The equalization of scarcity is done through three methods: theft, empowerment or exchange. Capitalizm wasn't invented in the 21st century, or even the 20th like cellphones. Frankly, if the game wasn't focused on adventuring, the favored class for humans would be the Merchant. :D --gleep
Al2902 07-24-05, 10:46 AM	So any form of store, exchange or merchantile system didn't exist until modern times? Economies have been scarcity-based since the dawn of agriculture (which is when economy, generally, is thought to have become meaningful). The equalization of scarcity is done through three methods: theft, empowerment or exchange. Capitalizm wasn't invented in the 21st century, or even the 20th like cellphones. Frankly, if the game wasn't focused on adventuring, the favored class for humans would be the Merchant. :D --gleep Well said. One of the major faults of the attacking of the economic logic of magic shops is that all too often there is a parallel fully functional quasi-market economy. Farmers trade cereals and livestock, merchants ship metals and crafted products, aristocrats buy art and jewellery, but somehow the purchase of magic items is beyond the pale? If a DM were to develop a moderately well explained alternative system of exchange in such a way as to remove the market system for whatever reason and apply it consistently and logically throughout their campaign, I would have no problem accepting that magic shops don't exist. What I can't find credible is that given the parameters of trade-based economics and a plethora of magic items, there would not be some form of trade in them.
weasel fierce 07-24-05, 02:08 PM	Just because an item is traded, does not mean there will be shops for it. But yes, if you play in a setting where its assuming that you'll have magic items by level 3-4, trading or exchanging definately is likely to occur.