A CR Question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

A CR Question... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rauthik
11-26-06, 12:23 AM Okay... so the CR is what level 4 PCs should to fight the 'creature' and spend roughly 25% of their resources. In general the CRs are fairly accurate, however, my problem is this....
A 10th level Human Fighter is considered a CR 10, yet four 10th level characters would basically beat the crap out of him in no time flat. Especially a somewhat well rounded party. Of course you could load him down with all sorts of crazy magic items, but he'd still basically lose and then the PCs would have those wonderful items.
So, I'm thinking... what if the PCs had to go up against another group of adventurers? Figure a party of four 10th level PCs (generic fighter, mage, cleric, and thief) was to face another 10th level party the CR would be a 14, which would be rather fatal to the PCs and not the 'evenly matched' fight one would think.
I'd love to have the PCs fight a rival party of adventurers, but it just never seems fair (especially if the NPC party lays down an ambush). Does anyone else see this as a problem and if so, what do you suggest to fix it?
megageek
11-26-06, 12:28 AM Yah, there is that "fighter factor"!
Comus
11-26-06, 12:31 AM The problem is that a Level 10 party versus a Level 10 Enemy party is a fair match. Fair as in "50-50". Fair as in "Some of the PCs are going to die".

Remember, there's supposed to be little chance of a character dying in an equal CR match. It's just supposed to take some spells and HP. It's not a fair fight at all, because there are an infinite amount of enemies, and only a few players.
Ongorth
11-26-06, 12:36 AM NPCs are always rough when it comes to providing a challenge. Single NPCs made buy the book are always bad. They are supposed to eat up 25% of the parties resources. They are indeed 25% of a party very literally, but lacking multiple actions, a variety of counters and any sort of party synergy, they simply don't add up like they are supposed to. Monsters get fat stats and big special abilities to make up for it. NPCs just get the same abilities of one fourth of the party. This is one of those moments where you take the CR system with a grain of salt, particular since character classes don't provide equivilent challenges in themselves.

As you noted, if the opposing party is the same level and number of characters, the encounter may end up a coin flip as they are mechanically equivilent. So, you have a few options:

1) Have the NPC party lower level then the PC party. A party of level 8 adventures is CR12, a good rough fight.
2) Have the NPC party poorly designed so that the PCs have a mechaincal advantage
3) Rely on the fact that your four players are smart and can play their characters better then you can play the NPCs. I mean, their are FOUR of them who should all be intimately familiar with what their characters do.
4) Give a situational advantage to the PCs.
5) Rely on the fact that both the rival party and the NPCs don't want to die and trust them to not kill each other.

These things will have a varying amoun of success and can be used in combinations as needed.
Roivas
11-26-06, 12:49 AM The best way to make lone NPCs with class levels more effective is to have them be a low CR monster. A goblin or kobold cleric would actually be higher level than the players and with the right spells could have enough undead under it's control to menace the players for about 10 rounds. Just remember to give him the trickery domain so mislead is his pre-combat spell.
You can confound the players further by having him bolster the undead to make them resistant to turning. If you really feel a lone goblin is too weak give him about 6 orc or orge guards who he has some measur of control over.
Adding class levels to the weaker monsters mean not only giving you a chance to use simpler monsters in combat, without resorting to uber items, it also can confuse the players to have to fight things that they've defeated 9 levels ago. Everyone fears the twenty-six kobold sorcerer magic missle squad!
White_Wizard
11-26-06, 09:33 AM Okay... so the CR is what level 4 PCs should to fight the 'creature' and spend roughly 25% of their resources. In general the CRs are fairly accurate, however, my problem is this....
A 10th level Human Fighter is considered a CR 10, yet four 10th level characters would basically beat the crap out of him in no time flat. Especially a somewhat well rounded party. Of course you could load him down with all sorts of crazy magic items, but he'd still basically lose and then the PCs would have those wonderful items.
So, I'm thinking... what if the PCs had to go up against another group of adventurers? Figure a party of four 10th level PCs (generic fighter, mage, cleric, and thief) was to face another 10th level party the CR would be a 14, which would be rather fatal to the PCs and not the 'evenly matched' fight one would think.
I'd love to have the PCs fight a rival party of adventurers, but it just never seems fair (especially if the NPC party lays down an ambush). Does anyone else see this as a problem and if so, what do you suggest to fix it?
Indeed a single level 10 NPC is not a real match for 4 level 10 PCs: they hit more, they deal more damage, they are more flexible and they have more resources.
Basically it works better with 4 NPCs of lower level (whose total EL is 10) and they are supposed to use tactics in order to be a real challenge, otherwise they're just cannon fodder. Magic items should play a minimal role though, because if an adventure includes more than a couple of such encounters in the end the PCs will have loads of magic items more than normal and this could unbalance the game (a Bag of Holding and the PCs will start to collect every +1 weapon/armor they'll find to sell them at the market and buying powerful magic items); and (but this is just a matter of personal tastes) magic items should not be so common in the game that the players can "collect" them at the end of each encounter.
Usually it's best to have the NPCs use scroll / potions and wands, which are low cost magic items and can provide a strong boost to everyone, even if for a short time (but NPCs usually don't need/have much time during an encounter).
Just think about potions/oils of haste, barkskin, magical vestment, magic weapon (/greater), displacement, energy resistance etc. A wand of stoneskin with 6 charges left is a valuable tool and the PCs won't have that much unbalanced magic item in the end (there will be just 2 charges left: useful, but not unbalancing and they'll save it for future needs).
Also a group of NPCs rather than just a single fighter means that there will be different type of challenges within the same encounter. Let's think about four NPCs: a Fighter, a Barbarian, a Rogue and a Sorcerer.
The Fighter can be heavy armored and highly specialyzed in combat and he can also easily look as the most dangerous foe.
A Barbarian with an adamantine weapon and Improved Sunder feat is a dreadful foe, much more dangerous than a Rust Monster for PCs' weapons.
The Roue could stay hidden until the chance to score a sneak attack comes up: even with no buffs he can be a dreadful opponent, but if he is given ranks in Use Magic Device and has a wand of true strike with 2 or 3 charges he can become the real danger of the encounter and a true spellcaster killer.
The sorcerer need just to stay behind with very focused spells (either buffs or damaging, but not both) and he can give the PCs serius troubles.
Against four lvl 10 Pcs a party of four lvl 6 well buffed NPCs is a real challenge, but can easily become a poor encounter if they don't use at least some degree of tactics. Also if they are too much buffed the encounter can become tougher.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rauthik 11-26-06, 12:23 AM	Okay... so the CR is what level 4 PCs should to fight the 'creature' and spend roughly 25% of their resources. In general the CRs are fairly accurate, however, my problem is this.... A 10th level Human Fighter is considered a CR 10, yet four 10th level characters would basically beat the crap out of him in no time flat. Especially a somewhat well rounded party. Of course you could load him down with all sorts of crazy magic items, but he'd still basically lose and then the PCs would have those wonderful items. So, I'm thinking... what if the PCs had to go up against another group of adventurers? Figure a party of four 10th level PCs (generic fighter, mage, cleric, and thief) was to face another 10th level party the CR would be a 14, which would be rather fatal to the PCs and not the 'evenly matched' fight one would think. I'd love to have the PCs fight a rival party of adventurers, but it just never seems fair (especially if the NPC party lays down an ambush). Does anyone else see this as a problem and if so, what do you suggest to fix it?
megageek 11-26-06, 12:28 AM	Yah, there is that "fighter factor"!
Comus 11-26-06, 12:31 AM	The problem is that a Level 10 party versus a Level 10 Enemy party is a fair match. Fair as in "50-50". Fair as in "Some of the PCs are going to die". Remember, there's supposed to be little chance of a character dying in an equal CR match. It's just supposed to take some spells and HP. It's not a fair fight at all, because there are an infinite amount of enemies, and only a few players.
Ongorth 11-26-06, 12:36 AM	NPCs are always rough when it comes to providing a challenge. Single NPCs made buy the book are always bad. They are supposed to eat up 25% of the parties resources. They are indeed 25% of a party very literally, but lacking multiple actions, a variety of counters and any sort of party synergy, they simply don't add up like they are supposed to. Monsters get fat stats and big special abilities to make up for it. NPCs just get the same abilities of one fourth of the party. This is one of those moments where you take the CR system with a grain of salt, particular since character classes don't provide equivilent challenges in themselves. As you noted, if the opposing party is the same level and number of characters, the encounter may end up a coin flip as they are mechanically equivilent. So, you have a few options: 1) Have the NPC party lower level then the PC party. A party of level 8 adventures is CR12, a good rough fight. 2) Have the NPC party poorly designed so that the PCs have a mechaincal advantage 3) Rely on the fact that your four players are smart and can play their characters better then you can play the NPCs. I mean, their are FOUR of them who should all be intimately familiar with what their characters do. 4) Give a situational advantage to the PCs. 5) Rely on the fact that both the rival party and the NPCs don't want to die and trust them to not kill each other. These things will have a varying amoun of success and can be used in combinations as needed.
Roivas 11-26-06, 12:49 AM	The best way to make lone NPCs with class levels more effective is to have them be a low CR monster. A goblin or kobold cleric would actually be higher level than the players and with the right spells could have enough undead under it's control to menace the players for about 10 rounds. Just remember to give him the trickery domain so mislead is his pre-combat spell. You can confound the players further by having him bolster the undead to make them resistant to turning. If you really feel a lone goblin is too weak give him about 6 orc or orge guards who he has some measur of control over. Adding class levels to the weaker monsters mean not only giving you a chance to use simpler monsters in combat, without resorting to uber items, it also can confuse the players to have to fight things that they've defeated 9 levels ago. Everyone fears the twenty-six kobold sorcerer magic missle squad!
White_Wizard 11-26-06, 09:33 AM	Okay... so the CR is what level 4 PCs should to fight the 'creature' and spend roughly 25% of their resources. In general the CRs are fairly accurate, however, my problem is this.... A 10th level Human Fighter is considered a CR 10, yet four 10th level characters would basically beat the crap out of him in no time flat. Especially a somewhat well rounded party. Of course you could load him down with all sorts of crazy magic items, but he'd still basically lose and then the PCs would have those wonderful items. So, I'm thinking... what if the PCs had to go up against another group of adventurers? Figure a party of four 10th level PCs (generic fighter, mage, cleric, and thief) was to face another 10th level party the CR would be a 14, which would be rather fatal to the PCs and not the 'evenly matched' fight one would think. I'd love to have the PCs fight a rival party of adventurers, but it just never seems fair (especially if the NPC party lays down an ambush). Does anyone else see this as a problem and if so, what do you suggest to fix it? Indeed a single level 10 NPC is not a real match for 4 level 10 PCs: they hit more, they deal more damage, they are more flexible and they have more resources. Basically it works better with 4 NPCs of lower level (whose total EL is 10) and they are supposed to use tactics in order to be a real challenge, otherwise they're just cannon fodder. Magic items should play a minimal role though, because if an adventure includes more than a couple of such encounters in the end the PCs will have loads of magic items more than normal and this could unbalance the game (a Bag of Holding and the PCs will start to collect every +1 weapon/armor they'll find to sell them at the market and buying powerful magic items); and (but this is just a matter of personal tastes) magic items should not be so common in the game that the players can "collect" them at the end of each encounter. Usually it's best to have the NPCs use scroll / potions and wands, which are low cost magic items and can provide a strong boost to everyone, even if for a short time (but NPCs usually don't need/have much time during an encounter). Just think about potions/oils of haste, barkskin, magical vestment, magic weapon (/greater), displacement, energy resistance etc. A wand of stoneskin with 6 charges left is a valuable tool and the PCs won't have that much unbalanced magic item in the end (there will be just 2 charges left: useful, but not unbalancing and they'll save it for future needs). Also a group of NPCs rather than just a single fighter means that there will be different type of challenges within the same encounter. Let's think about four NPCs: a Fighter, a Barbarian, a Rogue and a Sorcerer. The Fighter can be heavy armored and highly specialyzed in combat and he can also easily look as the most dangerous foe. A Barbarian with an adamantine weapon and Improved Sunder feat is a dreadful foe, much more dangerous than a Rust Monster for PCs' weapons. The Roue could stay hidden until the chance to score a sneak attack comes up: even with no buffs he can be a dreadful opponent, but if he is given ranks in Use Magic Device and has a wand of true strike with 2 or 3 charges he can become the real danger of the encounter and a true spellcaster killer. The sorcerer need just to stay behind with very focused spells (either buffs or damaging, but not both) and he can give the PCs serius troubles. Against four lvl 10 Pcs a party of four lvl 6 well buffed NPCs is a real challenge, but can easily become a poor encounter if they don't use at least some degree of tactics. Also if they are too much buffed the encounter can become tougher.