Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DM Aruthiat 03-30-06, 01:04 AM	I have this player who wants a "custom dagger" that "fits him" to be able to be thrown with a 30foot range increment and gain a +1 attack when thrown, while still functionng as a normal dagger in melee. He presents several logical arguments, what do I do?
Archangel62 03-30-06, 01:23 AM	Well, I have a few ideas for you. 1) If you have weapons of legacy use that for him, you might be able to work out a logical reason for something like that. 2) Tell him that it can be done, but design a set of quests for it, needing exotic metals, certain materials for the forging, basically make him work for it. 3) Something like that might be doable but put in a personal cost, maybe he has to 'bond' to the dagger, making some sort of sacrifice from his body into the weapon to grant it this power. 4) Work out the magical cost for each thing, triple, then tell him that's the cost of the item. I'll mention other ideas as they come.
ressurrector 03-30-06, 01:29 AM	Make him a returning dagger of range (which I believe is 1.5x or 2x range increments) Or you can house-rule a specific type of dagger called a throwing dagger, have it be unuseable in melee, and get a greater throwing range due to differences in blade shape/size and balancing. Make them drawable as ammunition if necessary. Otherwise: Have it be that they must be specially constructed out of mithral, and masterworked, and etc... Create an enchantment based off of the "range" enchantment in the DMG that will increase the throwing range as required.
Pandaemoni 03-30-06, 01:54 AM	I have this player who wants a "custom dagger" that "fits him" to be able to be thrown with a 30foot range increment and gain a +1 attack when thrown, while still functionng as a normal dagger in melee. He presents several logical arguments, what do I do? I'd say it's up to you...but: (i) Unless his character has a few ranks of Knowledge (aerodynamics) (assuming, that is, that the science of aerodynamics even exists in your world) then there is no way his character could design a viable throwing dagger. If the player is willing to spend the skill points, can locate a trainer to teach him the skill, and is willing to undertake the adventure to get to and persuade that trainer, then I'd have no problem giving him the ability to commission special masterwork daggers. Though even then you have to be careful as the player may be setting you up for his announcement that he's becoming a Master Thrower. (Also note that once he gives the plans to a weaponsmith, unless the player is very careful to get some express agreement in advance, the weaponsmith likely will start making a mint selling the improved daggers...there are no patent laws in most D&D worlds.) (ii) Thirty feet strikes me as a bit long anyway. A 30' range increment means he could hit someone 59 feet away with only a -2 penalty to hit. That is actually a tough shot with a knife, even a well balanced one, against an individual (then again, perhaps not so ridiculous as hitting an individual with a bow at several hundred feet). Even after the whole quest for Knowledge (aerodynamics) I'd probably make the range increment 20', like a dart or a spear (and no dagger, imo, can be made more aerodynamically functional than a dart...in fact, likely no dual melee/ranged weapon could even match a dart, as that is designed to be thrown and nothing else). (iii) It's not only about real-world logic, it is also about game balance. The simple weapons are supposed to be balanced against one another. In the case of the dagger, a lot of its allure comes from its functionality and it's easy transition from melee to ranged use. As such they limited its range. Even if one could improve on the design in the real world...in the real world one could always one-shot-kill any living opponent by stabbing him through the eye socket, heart or throat. Called shots were eliminated to preserve game balance. Unless this player has an engineering degree, it kind of suspect he may be a master of making BS sound logical and right, as how much experience does he have designing thrown weapons? Even if he has experience with throwing knives, those tend to be under 1/2 a pound (some are as light as 0.2 lbs). That's a quarter to half the weight of a standard dagger. They also have no quillons (limiting their usefulness as melee weapons) because a quillons would throw off the center of gravity of the weapon and create unnecessary air resistance during flight. That is not to say that his idea should be rejected, though. If he is willing to make it the focus of an adventure (or if he somehow already has skills that would make the design of such a weapon plausible) then some negotiation might be good for the game. He'll appreciate it more if he must invest in it anyway.
DM Aruthiat 03-30-06, 01:55 AM	ANyone know of any histrorical "throwing daggers"?
Cantankerous 03-30-06, 02:17 AM	In actual fact, if you can even hit a target the size of a human chest more than thirty feet away with a balanced throwing dagger, you're EXTREMELY good. Historicly, fifteen feet is a decent practical maximum for a throwing dagger in a combat situation. Just chucking one at a board target you might be able to do thirty with some accuracy, but probably not too much. Tornament Dart Throwing is done from six to twelve (for the really great darters) feet in range after all. Anyone who tells you they can bullseye a fist or smaller sized target with a thrown knife from more than eight yards will probably also be the guy who'll try to sell you ocean front property in Nevada. Isshia
Pandaemoni 03-30-06, 02:19 AM	ANyone know of any histrorical "throwing daggers"? As a weapon, I do not believe that "throwing daggers" were all that common historically outside of a side show or juggling act. Throwing knives is hard to do, and thrown knives don't make the best weapons, outside of fiction it the occasional lucky shot. I think the concept of the thrown dagger entered D&D more because of the Thieves' World novels and few other such works. You can read (download) the discussion here: www.florilegium.org/files/COMBAT/knife-throwing-msg.rtf and search for "dagger" to see the difficulties. Even trained knife throwers can't simply do the mental calculations necessary to hit a moving target "on the fly". They practice throwing using a particular throwing technique at a particular distance and calculate the number of turns the knife will go through between release and hitting its target in a very precise way. (See, for example, the turn-distance formula (http://users.rcn.com/comlogic/knife/throwing/science/science.htm) or, more esoterically, the physics of knife throwing (http://www.knifethrowing.info/physics_of_knife_throwing.html)). In reality, outside of hollywood and other fiction, dagger/knife throwing in combat is more an act of desperation than a tried and true practice. That said, the game is fiction...
Dex 03-30-06, 03:02 AM	I have this player who wants a "custom dagger" that "fits him" to be able to be thrown with a 30foot range increment and gain a +1 attack when thrown, while still functionng as a normal dagger in melee. He presents several logical arguments, what do I do? +1 Distance Dagger that grants the use of the Far Shot Feat. (range inc 30ft (10ftx2 (far shot)=20, 20x1.5=30 distance special ability). Cost: 8,000+300+2+15,000 (feat Far Shot (prerquisites Point blank shot)) =23,302gp Problem Solved. Getting enough cash, however... Edit: I forgot to add: -30% cost if the item only works for a specific class (such as rogue or fighter). =16311gp and 4sp
TheOneWhoWanders 03-30-06, 03:06 AM	It could depend on what real life would do or Dnd would do, but what it all boils down to is if you want it in the campaign or not. Personally, the range would be an issue, but not something game haulting. Alot of the games I've been in, the range for simple weapons (thrown weapons) has never progressed beyond 30 feet that may be due to the feats that work within the 30 foot range. So if you're campaign deals with a lot of instances where it'll come into play, you may want to consider it from a balancing stand point. If you don't have many long range instances, I wouldn't see a problem. If he's constantly throwing at things 10 to 15 feet away, it doesn't really play a part. Like I said though it all comes down to you, if you want it or not. If it will make the game fun or unfun, and choose from there. Edit: Or go with Dex's Plan, its simple and elegant. (took a little too long posting it seems)
Callista 03-30-06, 05:28 AM	Yes, throwing a dagger 30 feet is unrealistic. So is casting a Fireball. This is D&D... your player really seems to be looking for no more than flavor, so don't get uptight about realism. Ideas, one or more of which may be useful (but I make no guarantees): --Devise an enchantment (+1 equivalent, I think, would make sense) to add +20 feet to range increments, rather than the "of range" which doubles the range increment. This is more expensive than other options, but the dagger gets +1 attack as well as +1 damage, and the increased range, for a +2 bonus. --Have the player search for someone who would know enough about aerodynamics to design such a dagger (this is a good excuse to drive the players crazy with gnome NPCs) --Make the item an exotic weapon --Make it a martial weapon, but add drawbacks: Maybe it does less damage (because it's lighter) or is awkward to wield in melee (so its masterwork +1 attack bonus applies only when it's thrown). It *has* to be Masterwork because it's so hard to make well--meaning a big handful of them will cost the PC a good deal of gold. --Use the statistics for a Dart; add a -4 improvised weapon penalty when using them in melee.
Cantankerous 03-30-06, 07:08 AM	Yes, throwing a dagger 30 feet is unrealistic. So is casting a Fireball. This is D&D... your player really seems to be looking for no more than flavor, so don't get uptight about realism. Callista, you may be right. But to me this sounds more like a Player saying: "I want a fireball that has a range of 1200' +120' per level, still does the same damage as a fireball, is castable at the same level and a bonus to the DC as well." Isshia BTW: Heroic and Unforgetable Deaths from the old PHB Forum, regrettably, seems to have, well, died. You might want to take a look. I
pres_man 03-30-06, 09:16 AM	+1 Dart of Distance, can be used in combat as a melee weapon with a -4 penalty. Don't tell him it is a dart, tell him it is a "throwing knife". P.S.: I know officially you can't use a dart in melee. Yet if you can use an arrow in melee as an improvised weapon and a javelin as well. It is only logical you could use a dart.
Brehon 03-30-06, 09:27 AM	I really don't see this as game breaking. He wants an exotic type throwing dagger. Make him spend a feat on proficiency. Have the base dagger cost 200 gp (100 x normal) for the 30 foot range, but also give it a -1 to hit in melee. Then make it masterwork for another 300 gp, which gives him his +1 to hit when thrown and evens out the melee attack bonus. And make sure he gets to retrieve whenever he throws it. In my DM'ing experience, no game has ever been made more fun by breaking the players' toys. :)
Eightbitmage 03-30-06, 10:05 AM	Let me see if I get this. He showed you, logically, that someone can make a dagger that they can throw accurately enough to hit someone 150 ft. away although with a -10 penalty? With a normal dagger his range is 50 ft. He should be happy with that. Either that or he should get throwing darts.
equilibrium17 03-30-06, 11:59 AM	FWIW: I'm a retired Circus performer. Used to do knife and hatchet throwing. I have also Real World studied martial arts techiques for years, including some knife stuff. So here's your Real World basis: Combat knife throwing, and show knife throwing are very different things, though training in one does help you pick up the other, to an extent. In Knife fighting, most throws are 5' or less. It is generally a suprise move to catch someone off-guard, or take advantage of a sudden opening. It depends a bit on the type of blade and size (you throw a double-edged commando dagger very differently from a Bowie knife), but you rarely, if ever, would throw the knife more than 1 rotation, and actually most throws don't even do a full rotation; one very common move is an underhanded or sidearm throw, done with a flicking motion that doesn't actually rotate the blade at all. In performance, we'd usually do throws in the 25-30' range -- the greater distance makes it more impressive, and makes the throw read from a longer distance. When you have controlled circumstances, throws in this range are not too difficult, once you get the hang of it. Knife throwing has a very steep learning curve; you spend weeks throwing, and failing to hit and stick anything, and then it just sort of clicks. I was OK with Knife Throwing (wasn't my primary skill; juggling & wire walking were) -- I could do 2 rotation throws fairly easily. The guys who were really good could do 4 rotation throws, which is damn impressive. Now, for D&D: I agree with the assessment that ranged weapons in general are more accurate in D&D than IRL; so the 10' range increment for a thrown dagger makes the weapon much more effective as a ranged weapon than IRL, it seems about right in the context of a world where it's relatively easy to hit someone with a bow at 100'. Both ranges are a bit unrealistic, but hey, so are fire-breathing dragons and invisibility spells. . . But as for your player's request: I agree with the sentiment that a 30' range increment for a thrown blade should definitely be a magical property, not simply an exceptionally well made mundane weapon. As others have mentioned, there are a variety of feats, exisiting weapons, etc. that one could use as a basis for calculating the weapon's cost. So long as the Magic Item is appropriately balanced relative to party level, I don't see a problem with it.
Sulaco 03-30-06, 12:19 PM	I have this player who wants a "custom dagger" that "fits him" to be able to be thrown with a 30foot range increment and gain a +1 attack when thrown, while still functionng as a normal dagger in melee. He presents several logical arguments, what do I do? Work out what it would cost to accomplish this by making it a magic weapon and charge him that, but since he just want's it "custom made" and not magical then it remains non-magical.
DM Aruthiat 03-30-06, 02:55 PM	Its good to have a dose of RL wisdom here. Kinda shoots down his complaint that it "dosent make sense"
Sulaco 03-30-06, 03:03 PM	Its good to have a dose of RL wisdom here. Kinda shoots down his complaint that it "dosent make sense" The 30' range and a +1 to hit is simply too much together. So what if instead you allow the following: he can indeed get a specially made throwing knife which has the ranged characteristics of a dart and the melee characteristics of a dagger, and even gets a +1 to hit, but since it is a custom order and a unique design it is a masterwork item and is thus priced accordingly and msut be made to order (no insta-buy off-the-shelf stuff). Seems a workable compromise to me.
Lady Rolindin 03-30-06, 03:16 PM	I would have the player buy an master work dagger of throwing, with the +1 they want it could be done. Just make sure it's a throwing dagger, master work.
starfire311 03-30-06, 03:59 PM	I have this player who wants a "custom dagger" that "fits him" to be able to be thrown with a 30foot range increment and gain a +1 attack when thrown, while still functionng as a normal dagger in melee. He presents several logical arguments, what do I do? Doesn't make sense to me, not sure what logical argument he gave you that showed a range increment of 30ft on a dagger is possible... I would make it an exotic weapon with the same stats as a dart.... just say it can be wielded in melee without the exotic weapon feat but the wielder suffers a -4 penalty to attack. If he wanted to get a masterworked version to get the +1 attack that wouldn't be an issue for me.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-30-06, 04:11 PM	ANyone know of any histrorical "throwing daggers"? Yes. Since throwing daggers won't neccessarily hit with the point, and not, say, the hilt, historical throwing daggers tend to be covered in various blades and spikes, to increase the chance of injury.
equilibrium17 03-30-06, 04:20 PM	Yes. Since throwing daggers won't neccessarily hit with the point, and not, say, the hilt, historical throwing daggers tend to be covered in various blades and spikes, to increase the chance of injury. Not trying to call you out, but do you have an example? Most of the knives/daggers I have worked with that are balanced for throwing -- the Bowie, the Sykes-Fairbarn Commando, Sgian Dubh, Spanish Blood Dagger, etc. do not have additional blades or spikes. The Sykes-Fairbarn has a pointy end to the pommel, but it's designed to allow hammer blows in melee, and I don't think would do much when thrown, were the knife to land butt-end first. But I don't pretend to have an exhaustive knowledge of all the combat knives of World History. . .
Chobemaster 03-30-06, 05:29 PM	As a weapon, I do not believe that "throwing daggers" were all that common historically outside of a side show or juggling act. Throwing knives is hard to do, and thrown knives don't make the best weapons, outside of fiction it the occasional lucky shot. I think the concept of the thrown dagger entered D&D more because of the Thieves' World novels and few other such works. Wow I'm old. I had been playing D&D for YEARS before the first Thieves' World book came out. But I'm pretty sure the Gray Mouser threw a knife or two.
Chobemaster 03-30-06, 05:31 PM	I'd assume that thousands of years of history w/ life or death results had already led throwing dagger "evolution" to its high point as reflected in the PHB.
ressurrector 03-30-06, 06:55 PM	Yes. Since throwing daggers won't neccessarily hit with the point, and not, say, the hilt, historical throwing daggers tend to be covered in various blades and spikes, to increase the chance of injury. Well, there's shurikens, and there's also kunai. Shurikens are generally edged all over the freaking place, have holes in the middle, and hit on A point. Kunai are throwing knives weighted so that they don't tumble. You throw them straight out, look something like this: <>--o
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-30-06, 07:38 PM	Not trying to call you out, but do you have an example? Most of the knives/daggers I have worked with that are balanced for throwing -- the Bowie, the Sykes-Fairbarn Commando, Sgian Dubh, Spanish Blood Dagger, etc. do not have additional blades or spikes. The Sykes-Fairbarn has a pointy end to the pommel, but it's designed to allow hammer blows in melee, and I don't think would do much when thrown, were the knife to land butt-end first. But I don't pretend to have an exhaustive knowledge of all the combat knives of World History. . . Don't have a name, but they were extensively used in Malaysia.
devinmdp 03-30-06, 08:34 PM	First of all, the issue of whether hitting someone with a dagger at 30 ft is irrelevant. You can already do that with a regular D&D dagger. You just have to accept a penalty to your attack roll. Second, I often wonder why players seem to come up with these burning needs to have items that go outside the rules. Specifically, in this case, why the heck would this guy need to have a dagger like this? Can't he already get a masterwork dagger and just throw it with the range increment penalties? Add Weapon Focus (dagger) and you've already overcome the first range penalty. There are so many options within the rules that it boggles me that players continually have to go outside of them. Devin
Capt. Pixel 03-30-06, 08:39 PM	I'd say no. But ... if the player would like to pick up the Point Blank Shot and Far shot feats, he'd be better off in the long run. At least these feats would apply to more weapons than his fancy dagger. edit: Devinmdp has the right idea. Combine P.B.S., Far Shot, Weapon Focus (dagger) and a Masterwork dagger. Range Attack Bonus 15' +3 30' +1 45' -2 60' -4 75' (Max) -6 Not bad for a dagger. :rolleyes: Alternatively, you could give him the weapon as described, bait him into using on a monster, and have said monster retreat (with the precious dagger in its side). After retreating, the monster Sunders the weapon while removing it. Bye-bye fancy dagger. :P
Dex 03-31-06, 03:13 AM	Hate to tell you all this, but I solved the problem back halfway up the post. +1 Distance Dagger that grants the use of the Far Shot Feat. (range inc 30ft (10ftx2 (far shot)=20, 20x1.5=30 distance special ability). Cost: 8,000+300+2+15,000 (feat Far Shot (prerquisites Point blank shot)) =23,302gp Problem Solved. Getting enough cash, however... Edit: I forgot to add: -30% cost if the item only works for a specific class (such as rogue or fighter). =16311gp and 4sp
Radijs 03-31-06, 04:45 AM	Who needs logic in DnD? I thought those two where mutually exclusive? Anyway, its not really gamebreaking or anything. I'd just make him work for it. A quest has been suggested or something of the like. If you think that its going to be bothersome that extra 20' and the +1 on attack rolls make it an exotic weapon and let him take a feat for it. Problem solved.
Lord Ian Stark 03-31-06, 07:25 AM	What did ever happen to a weapon in the weapons table called throwing dagger? I was thinking about making a dagger throwing halfling when I couldn't find a throwing dagger. (Ok so I didn't look to hard) I found the normal dagger and it had the 10' ft range. So that's it? No special nonmagical design for a throwing dagger anymore?
starfire311 03-31-06, 08:44 AM	Hate to tell you all this, but I solved the problem back halfway up the post. yeah you solved it by ignoring the question... he wants a non-magical dagger.
Sulaco 03-31-06, 09:18 AM	Not trying to call you out, but do you have an example? Here are a few examples: http://perso.easynet.fr/~ozzy/jdr/pangheia/images/mongwanga.gif
equilibrium17 03-31-06, 10:17 AM	Interesting. What culture/time period are those from? And are theyintended for melee, as well as ranged combat? While it's hard to tell from simple line drawings, those weapons, and particularly the bottom two, seem more similar to a Throwing Axe than a Throwing Dagger or Knife to me. Judging by the size of the grip, they're also closer in size to a Short Sword than a Dagger. And they don't look very well balanced for hand-to-hand combat. But I'd love to have more info. At the very least, if you wanted to simulate such a weapon in D&D, you'd need to get rid of the concealment bonus for daggers. With all those protrusions, the weapon would also take a lot of skill to wield properly; I'd probably make it at least a martial, if not an exotic weapon. Come to think if it, I've been looking for a unique weapon to add flavor to a goblin tribe I'm developing for a new campaign. Something like one of those might fit the bill. Hmmmm... Thanks for the idea!