Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kouk 04-27-07, 01:13 AM	I am considering a house rule to handle how XP and death relate to characters. My players seem like they would prefer a WoW-style experience penalty system for death, rather than losing the experience and a level. If I were to make an "XP Debt", a character who dies and is raised would still be at the same level, but he would have an amount of XP to "pay back" before he could advance his class. An example would be: if a character who has just reached level 3 is killed, and then raised he would normally be level 2 with 1500 XP. With the XP Debt system, he would still be level 3, but he would "owe" 1500 XP which means he would have to first earn 1500 XP for paying off the "debt" before his actual XP total can begin to rise again. Once he gains 1501 XP, his debt is gone and he has gained 1 XP towards leveling up to 4. This would allow a character to be raised and continue to contribute the same amount as before, in the short term, and not be actually weaker than he started for dying. Having to pay back the "debt" would mean though that characters that have not died would level up somewhat faster than he would. If that happens, then he will eventually catch up due to lower level characters gaining XP faster. The goal of this would be to present a death system that still "stings", and encourages you to not get killed in the first place, but doesn't require rewriting your character sheet, changing your tactics or becoming more fragile(and easier to kill again). Death would be more of an inconvenience than a "punishment", if only psychologically. If I was to implement this sort of system (the details are not final; I am concerned about the concept), what might be the consequences in the long run? If I was to consider exactly the same amount of XP that would normally be "lost" from dying and make that the "debt", it seems to me that the overall effects on game balance would be about the same. Can any of you think of some problems with this, other than straying from the rulebook?
shogunboy 04-27-07, 01:16 AM	But what if they are sick with their current PC, and don't want it? If this house rule auto revives you, then what's the point of certain spells like raise dead? What about maybe a quest through the astral plane, or anything else. Though if you like to use it, go ahead if you wish to.
Perseus_Stoned 04-27-07, 01:28 AM	... If this house rule auto revives you... I don't think this is what the OP is saying. Anyways, thats a houserule my group implements, only (we die a lot) its more just so we don't have to reconfigure all of our stats and class abilities. We just have to reach our next level, get no benefit, and from there lose the "death burden".
DarkRhystar 04-27-07, 01:41 AM	The thing is that if you die and go down a level, the D&D experience system begins awarding you more experience to compensate so you're on par with your group sooner. The only difference between this and the old death system is that the current one puts the pressure of death on right away and the new one would put it on when the rest of the group gains its next level and you're still at the level you died at. You're just delaying the inevitable.
Perseus_Stoned 04-27-07, 01:43 AM	The thing is that if you die and go down a level, the D&D experience system begins awarding you more experience to compensate so you're on par with your group sooner. The only difference between this and the old death system is that the current one puts the pressure of death on right away and the new one would put it on when the rest of the group gains its next level and you're still at the level you died at. You're just delaying the inevitable. How it works now: Level 8 --> dies --> Level 7 --> Level 8 How it works houseruled: Level 8 --> dies --> Level 8 --> Level 8
Jenny With The Lantern 04-27-07, 01:48 AM	Someone do a calculation on this? I think you're wrong, but don't have the time a.t.m. to recalculate.
Kouk 04-27-07, 01:52 AM	The thing is that if you die and go down a level, the D&D experience system begins awarding you more experience to compensate so you're on par with your group sooner. The only difference between this and the old death system is that the current one puts the pressure of death on right away and the new one would put it on when the rest of the group gains its next level and you're still at the level you died at. You're just delaying the inevitable. I know, that is part of the idea. I am putting off the fact that the character that died will at some point be behind the other party members, but this way that character never goes backwards, only forwards.
Perseus_Stoned 04-27-07, 01:53 AM	Someone do a calculation on this? I think you're wrong, but don't have the time a.t.m. to recalculate. Well I guarantee you the above calculations aren't wrong (how could they be?), but what you're probably concerned about is your level in comparison to the class (which isn't shown above). It does give you more of a penalty in comparison to your group, so it depends on the type of game you run. If its a high-power-lots-of-people-die campaign, then my way works fine (plus I like how it slows your progression more, makes less incentive to die). If not, then just do a slight revision where, for experience, they're treated as one level lower until recovered. There, it got tweaked just fine. As far as I can tell (please correct me if I'm wrong) what the OP is looking for, above all, is just a way where a Level X stays Level X when he dies and doesn't go to Level (X - 1). Just keep him Level X, but treat him as X-1 until he gets caught up.
Kouk 04-27-07, 01:54 AM	But what if they are sick with their current PC, and don't want it? If this house rule auto revives you, then what's the point of certain spells like raise dead? What about maybe a quest through the astral plane, or anything else. Though if you like to use it, go ahead if you wish to. The party will have to arrange for a Raise as normal, and a True Resurrection would raise the character without any debt. As for replacing the character, that is a separate issue, but I am thinking it would be either just flat out one level lower than the previous one, or with the same XP total the dead character would have had under the standard system.
Kouk 04-27-07, 01:59 AM	As far as I can tell (please correct me if I'm wrong) what the OP is looking for, above all, is just a way where a Level X stays Level X when he dies and doesn't go to Level (X - 1). Just keep him Level X, but treat him as X-1 until he gets caught up. I thought of awarding the XP of a character one level lower so that he would pay off the "debt" sooner, but if I don't do that eventually the other players will be higher level and the challenges would presumably be higher level as well, which means the character who died and is now left behind the rest of the party will gain accelerated XP because he is now lower level. So, it would be about the same either way, I think, but if I award XP based on actual level it seems like it would be simpler for me to calculate them at the end of the session (less chance of confusion, like "Was your bard level 3, and I give him XP like a level 2? Or was it I am supposed to give XP as 3 because he is 4?" sort of thing, because there is no back and forth at all with the XP).
Perseus_Stoned 04-27-07, 02:01 AM	I thought of awarding the XP of a character one level lower so that he would pay off the "debt" sooner, but if I don't do that eventually the other players will be higher level and the challenges would presumably be higher level as well, which means the character who died and is now left behind the rest of the party will gain accelerated XP because he is now lower level. So, it would be about the same either way, I think, but if I award XP based on actual level it seems like it would be simpler for me to calculate them at the end of the session (less chance of confusion, like "Was your bard level 3, and I give him XP like a level 2? Or was it I am supposed to give XP as 3 because he is 4?" sort of thing, because there is no back and forth at all with the XP). We calculate it at the end of the session. Really, just do it how you want and award levels as you please. You could treat their level for experience as one off (so reduced experience per encounter) and this penalty gets removed when they do something cool enough to warrant the loss of the penalty. How is death treated in your game? Answer that and you'll know how serious to make this penalty. The way the DnD system is set up is to be mechanically perfect, so tournaments and the like work out fine. Homebrew rules can make things more exciting and less complicated.
danielinthewolvesden 04-27-07, 02:17 AM	Here's what I do- you do not lose a level, you just reset at the START of your current level. If you are brought back with Raise dead or similar spells. Thus, if you are half-way through 9th, you are back at the start. I do not like anyone ever losing a level and have to erase stuff from their sheet. Once you make it to 9th (or whatever), you are golden- as long as you play that same PC. If you decide you want a new PC, then you start = to the lowest level PC still in the party, with cash/equipt from the Table in the DMG at one level lower. Thus, if you have a 9th level new PC, you only get 8th level goods. However, my players are usually fairly generous with equipting "the new guy". Oh, and I do not allow any metagaming with the choice of new equipt. No figuering that the party has an extra pair of gloves of dexterity so you will not spend part of your cash on them.
nlentz88 04-27-07, 01:12 PM	An example would be: if a character who has just reached level 3 is killed, and then raised he would normally be level 2 with 1500 XP. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the PC would have 2000 XP. When raised, you go down one level and have XP halfway between this level and your old level. A PC needs 1000 XP for 2nd level and 3000 XP for 3rd level. Split the difference and you get 2000 XP. As for your system, I have no problem with an XP debt. I'm actually considering using something similar in my campaign.
Kouk 04-27-07, 03:20 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the PC would have 2000 XP. When raised, you go down one level and have XP halfway between this level and your old level. A PC needs 1000 XP for 2nd level and 3000 XP for 3rd level. Split the difference and you get 2000 XP. Ah, you are right. The first 1000 is untouched by normal death level loss in that case, so halfway through level 2 is another 1000 for a total XP of 2000.
Phrennzy 04-27-07, 04:32 PM	I like it - having to lose a level is the pits. Better to be in the hole XP wise than have to reconfigure abilities and lose spells...
Finarin Panjoro 04-27-07, 05:05 PM	I give characters who return from the dead a negative level which they lose once they gain as much XP as it would take for them to advance from their current level to the next. That is to say that if a 4th level character with 7500 xp dies. He comes back with a negative level and must earn 4000 xp before the negative level fades away. Should this character die again before losing his negative level he still has only one negative level if revived again, but must pay off his existing and his new XP amount before losing it. Thus if the Above character died again after reaching 10500 XP, he would still have only one negative level when revived, but would owe 6000 xp before it went away (1000 from his first death, plus 5000 since he's now 10th level). This way they never fall very far behind their party or lose significant class abilities or the ability to cast their best spells, but they are hurt by it and have their freedom from the trauma of death to look forward too.