Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 12-30-06, 03:04 AM	Hi folks, I'd appreciate some feedback on the current situation in my d&d campaign. I DM for three other people -- meaning that the party consists of only three PCs. During our last session, one of those PCs died. While this is obviously a lamentable situation on any occasion, I am worried that it will have far-reaching (and unforeseen) consequences for my campaign. Firstly, I was relying (perhaps too much) on the now-deceased PC for story impetus. My initial adventure hook involved the party being hired as guards for the dead PC's uncle as he traveled the land selling his merchandise. Once they were finished with this adventure (and all its sidequests), I was intending for them to meet up with a traveling cleric who would invite the dead PC to journey with him (as the player had wanted his PC to multiclass as a fighter/cleric). This hook was going to lead them into the Red Hand of Doom module. I will now have to rethink this latter hook ... The real problem is this, though: my campaign rules state that when a PC dies, the player may roll up a new one at one level below that of the party average. In this particular case, the two surviving PCs just attained 4th lvl, so the new PC would be 3rd lvl. However, this would make the party severely understrength to face the dangers of RHoD (I think they'll have a hard enough time anyway no matter what level they are when they eventually get into it, seeing as how there are only three of them ...). My back-up plan included running Sons of Gruumsh, but I'm not sure that they could handle even that adventure at levels 3-4. So what I need to decide is -- would it be acceptable to waive my campaign rules just this once and allow my player to roll up a new character at 4th lvl instead of at 3rd lvl? Or would that be giving my players ideas? I was also considering letting them "go" gestalt, but I'm not sure that that would work with characters that have already been adventuring for awhile (it seems like it's best to start out as gestalt, but I dunno ...). Even if I do let my player roll up a 4th lvl PC, I'll still need to find something else for the party to do in order to get them up to a more appropriate power level in order to be able to handle RHoD - the module is designed for 5th lvl, but since there are only three PCs, perhaps I should have them reach 6th lvl first? Right now I'm looking at running a downsized SoG that a party of three 4th lvl PCs could handle ... Any constructive thoughts/suggestions/advice from my fellow DMs would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance. Cheers, Jonny p.s. for more details on my campaign, see my recap thread: here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690236).
covanent 12-30-06, 03:10 AM	dont sweat the small stuff. if it advances the plot make um 4th lvl. no one will griped(for two long anyway). and try to be more fluid with yout plots why cant said cleric meet up anyway only to discover his fated apprentice dead go from thier hope that helps
pukunui 12-30-06, 04:33 AM	dont sweat the small stuff.Don't worry. I'm not. I can rewrite future plot hooks easily enough -- it's just more work for me, that's all. if it advances the plot make um 4th lvl. no one will griped(for two long anyway).I wouldn't say that it really advances the plot as such ... it's just more expedient. And no one in my group will complain. I was just a bit concerned that they might expect this kind of treatment in the future ... and try to be more fluid with yout plots why cant said cleric meet up anyway only to discover his ated apprentice dead go from thierI'm not really sure what you mean by being more fluid with my plot ... We haven't even got to that part yet. If I force them down a certain plot even though it's no longer all that relevant, I'd just be railroading them. To me, being more fluid would imply being more adaptable and able to change things on the fly. There's really no point in keeping the cleric plotline. The players don't know about him, and the only reason I was going to throw him in there was to counter some metagame thinking on the part of the now-dead PC's player - he had absolutely no in-game reason for wanting his character to multiclass as a cleric of Fharlanghn, so I was going to have him meet up with an older cleric who was going to take him on a journey - which is how you join the clergy of the wandering god - during which he would "get religion" and, incidentally, stumble into the beginning of the Red Hand of Doom module. So the whole plot hook thing isn't that big of an issue. Having the party be understrength and needing to fill some gaps is the bigger issue. Cheers.
Neutronium_Dragon 12-30-06, 04:38 AM	Let him start with the same XP/level as the other two. The whole "come in a level behind" gig is just an unnecessary punishment for the player of a now-deceased character anyway.
pukunui 12-30-06, 04:53 AM	Let him start with the same XP/level as the other two. The whole "come in a level behind" gig is just an unnecessary punishment for the player of a now-deceased character anyway. You think so? Yeah, I guess I can see it that way. On my part, at least, it's an unintentional additional punishment. I was thinking more along the lines of encouraging continuity by imposing a disincentive for deliberately killing your character ... But I suppose that's pretty extreme, and I think my players are all fairly reasonable, so maybe I should just scrap that rule altogether and always allow them to make a new character of the same level as the survivors. It would certainly make the math easier for me ...
GoriceXII 12-30-06, 08:22 AM	I would. I mean obviously this new character would not have the same stuff the previous one did. I'd allow a little more starting cash/equipment but no magical items or anything.
Anaxander 12-30-06, 08:38 AM	I would not. Every player should be treated equally. Only if there was no other way you could make an exception - but there are plenty of other ways: 1. Create a short side adventure, maybe some dungeon crawl, which will advance them all in level 2. Give xp somewhat faster for the whole group 3. Let the character of the player of the dead character gain xp faster than normal (he should normally gain faster xp than the rest, but just double it or something) Has anyone yet died in your campaign? Otherwise you could get rid off the rule which states that after death you begin at one character level lower, because then none of your players will feel unequally treated when they die.
taradusis 12-30-06, 08:39 AM	I would follow the rule now,makes it easier to enforce later when losing a character is the result of bad planning.Consider making merc's more available.Consider recruiting more warm bodies for the table,ask the players to cough up a name of someone who might want to play,this would double your number of players,(though hopefully not your number of freinds:) )A side trek to level up is definetely in order,perhaps a mission to the other side of the continent in the company of a preist of fharlargan?If you're getting a real risk of TPK it's a sign you should slow down and let the players swim in the shallow end of the pool for a while,the red hand of doom will still be there.
CharlieRock 12-30-06, 08:44 AM	Roll up the one at three. Rules should be consistant (mostly). Actually ,roll up two at three and make the characters twins. Hook one of the new characters into RHoD (or one of the older ones). I'm not familiar with that module ,but I'm hoping it has more then one tie-in possibility. Run a DMPC. Just don't invest emotionally into it. Maybe a 3rd lvl Warrior (DMG) or a 2-3 lvl ranger/bard. In combat just use buddy-aid spells and archery. This type of character rarely leads (bards just want to experience real adventure and care less where they find it). So you don't have to worry about taking control from the players. Or, allow retainers. I do this a lot because I have same number of players (and no fighters, ack!). They mostly hire a warrior or two (or an expert/bard once). You roll these up, and play them during the 'job interview' setting the basic personality. After that, they are under PC control. ;) P.S. Retainers are great future adventure 'hooks'. Two examples: One warrior left the team after about 2-3 adventures. Explaining that he had finally saved up enough to get his 'boat' out of hock. Turns out the 'boat' was a pirate ship! The team ran into them later on when looking for a 'Island X'. Though the old team-mate was a pirate, he was a CG and mainly raided the evil kingdoms ports and freed quite a few slaves that way. The team reunited, found 'Island X' , and then went on a pirate raid before heading inland (and bidding farewell once more to their old friend). Another warrior left the team after about 2-3 adventures also. Had a family funeral to go to way up north. Turned out she had a pretty good sized inheritance and bought a keep close to home (becoming the local Baroness). The team then later (much later) recieved a distress call (in the form of a shapeshifting druid) to go to her aid. Seemed some Orcs had taken over a mining system near her keep and were using it as a base to raid her hometown.
Asmodeur 12-30-06, 10:04 AM	Three players at lvl 4 or 5 are going to be in a world of hurt, if you run RHoD. I just checked it out, and it says 4 characters, lvl 6 to 12. Thats a minimum of 24 partylevels they suggest for starting, you have far less. If you start them at lvl 5, or even 6, I doubt they will make it past chapter one, considering the encounters. /shrug
CharlieRock 12-30-06, 10:23 AM	If RHoD is that much of a meat-grinder, just make up some characters specifically for that module. That's how we finally made it out of Castle Amber. ;) takes some of the sting out of TPKs, too. :rofl:
Penchant_Conjurer 12-30-06, 10:26 AM	Since continuity is very important to you, I would suggest having a funeral for the Dead PC. This allows you to bring in your priest, have a younger brother of the PC show up for the funeral who then agrees to take up his quest and so has a built in tie with the party (but can still be a totally different class). As far as the level problem goes, I use what I call booster templates. If I need someone to do something that is higher than their level, I engineer a temporary "condition" that increases their LA until the condition is over. They still gain XP and wind up a little ahead on treasure (I've always been a little heavy on gear in my games). For example, my current party is running a +2 LA, because I killed them and turned them into revenant undead. They are only 6th level but this allows me to take them planar a little early (they are questing for a "Cure"). In another game I had a disease that boosted stats while it aged the PC's. It was called Burn Out Boils. They got +4 to all stats, but they aged one year for every day. They tore through the adventure and found the cure within three game days.
Rivelstraz 12-30-06, 10:59 AM	I have never been a fan of players starting one whole level behind. Perhaps just a thousand XP (depending the level). Losing the character and the gear is enough punishment already. What do the other players think about him starting at level 4?
CharlieRock 12-30-06, 11:12 AM	What do the other players think about him starting at level 4? eh, I usually roll'em back a level. That way I don't end up with a player driving a 12th level Wizard who doesn't know what any spells do. Doesn't totally alleviate the problem, but goes along with the "Why did you just do that, silly?", "Oops, I never cast that before."
bhale187 12-30-06, 11:22 AM	Why not make the PC replacement level 3, but send the group on a side quest in oreder to level thetwo level 4 PCs up to 5 and the level 3 up to 4. That would also help offset the expected difficulties you foresee due to the small party size.
DarkRhystar 12-30-06, 01:04 PM	my campaign rules state that when a PC dies, the player may roll up a new one at one level below that of the party average I've never liked rules like this as more deaths always mean the party's levels become more and more spread out. Those players who have PCs die not only lose their characters but gain weaker characters in the process. Thus it becomes harder for them to survive so they take fewer chances and those who are higher level are forced into a heavier burden. If a party of level 5s wasn't able to defeat an encounter without 2 deaths, how are they going to defeat the next encounter with only 3 level 5s and 2 level 4s?
Magrus 12-30-06, 01:08 PM	Well, how about this? Does the player like the character? The player has a priest mentor and the plot is based on the character, just have the priest bring the character back. In exchange, have the players now have to work for the priest to pay off the cost of the spell. You get a 4th level back, you might get a level or two of out the quest to get it back. Done is done. If you have intelligent, respectful players, bending the rules to make a game easier and more fun on all should be done. They should realize that you are doing them, and yourself a favor and respect you for that. I tend to ask my players what they would rather do, and I would definately do so in this situation. Ask them and give them options. Don't give away the plot, but let them know "Hey, I have this thing planned that you are too weak for right now. Do you give it a go, or do you want to go for a sidetrack first? Do you want your old char back, or are you willing to lose him and get a new one?" If your players are jerks and will take advantage of the situation, well then I can see why you wouldn't want to bend your rules.
CharlieRock 12-30-06, 01:15 PM	If a party of level 5s wasn't able to defeat an encounter without 2 deaths, how are they going to defeat the next encounter with only 3 level 5s and 2 level 4s? How do you preplan when a character dies?
Magrus 12-30-06, 01:45 PM	How do you preplan when a character dies? If and when you plan to kill the character? That, or plan to have a set up system to rework a character into the game when a player dies. Like allowing the party to bring the character to a priest and have him raised. That's the route my players tend to go. A scroll of Raise Dead does wonders for that when you have a cleric or a rogue with UMD. Then its the party who has the work and planning all set. Most parties in games I have run tend to have a backup plan set up for themselves if a party member is downed or dead. If they don't? I don't feel sorry for them when they are a down a character. Not unless they are low level and can't afford or aren't able to so.
Limousine_Liberal 12-30-06, 01:51 PM	Let him start with the same XP/level as the other two. The whole "come in a level behind" gig is just an unnecessary punishment for the player of a now-deceased character anyway. I agree. With a good group that sort of punishment is not necessary. The only times when I feel it is, is when the party members are at risk of viewing their characters as "disposable." In long campaigns, the death of a character is its own punishment for my group, though.
pukunui 12-30-06, 08:44 PM	Wow. Thanks for all the responses so far! Let me try to answer them ... Has anyone yet died in your campaign? Otherwise you could get rid off the rule which states that after death you begin at one character level lower, because then none of your players will feel unequally treated when they die.I think I may just get rid of the rule. This is the first time it's come into play anyway. Really, I think if we were playing a more freeform campaign, it wouldn't matter so much, but because I'm really dying to run Red Hand of Doom, I'm looking for a more expedient solution ... I didn't want to just start it straight away because I've got new players so I wanted them to start at 1st lvl and everything we've done so far has been a sort of "prelude" to the main event. They've been traveling around the land in which RHoD takes place, getting to know the locals and such so that they'll hopefully have a better sense of place when it comes time to try to save it ... if that makes any sense? I would follow the rule now,makes it easier to enforce later when losing a character is the result of bad planning.Consider making merc's more available.Consider recruiting more warm bodies for the table,ask the players to cough up a name of someone who might want to play,this would double your number of players,(though hopefully not your number of freinds:) )A side trek to level up is definetely in order,perhaps a mission to the other side of the continent in the company of a preist of fharlargan?If you're getting a real risk of TPK it's a sign you should slow down and let the players swim in the shallow end of the pool for a while,the red hand of doom will still be there.I'd love to get more players but at this point I don't think it's feasible. As for a side trek, I'm looking for one. I was hoping to not have to do one as it will delay the "main event", but it looks like I don't really have a choice. I'll probably just go with a very downgraded Sons of Gruumsh ... Roll up the one at three. Rules should be consistant (mostly). Actually ,roll up two at three and make the characters twins.I've been wanting to play twins for a while now, but I'm the DM so yeah ... Hook one of the new characters into RHoD (or one of the older ones). I'm not familiar with that module ,but I'm hoping it has more then one tie-in possibility.It certainly does. I don't need to have the priest take them on a journey at all. That was just what I was planning on doing for several reasons (mainly to provide a good in-game reason for the dead PC to become a priest himself ...) Run a DMPC. Just don't invest emotionally into it. Maybe a 3rd lvl Warrior (DMG) or a 2-3 lvl ranger/bard. In combat just use buddy-aid spells and archery. This type of character rarely leads (bards just want to experience real adventure and care less where they find it). So you don't have to worry about taking control from the players. Or, allow retainers. I do this a lot because I have same number of players (and no fighters, ack!). They mostly hire a warrior or two (or an expert/bard once). You roll these up, and play them during the 'job interview' setting the basic personality. After that, they are under PC control. ;)There is one NPC ally with the group at the moment, but for the most part my players have stated that they'd prefer not to have them around. It's a little frustrating for me, but I'm glad they've accepted the current NPC. She looks set to stay put for a while as a possible love interest for one of the PCs. I did tell them about the whole "recruiting followers" thing, but they weren't interested. They seem to want to "go it alone", as it were. Three players at lvl 4 or 5 are going to be in a world of hurt, if you run RHoD. I just checked it out, and it says 4 characters, lvl 6 to 12. Thats a minimum of 24 partylevels they suggest for starting, you have far less.RHoD is designed for levels 5-10. The level range on the cover is incorrect. Even so, with only three players, I think it would probably be best if they were at least level 6 as many of the recaps in the Adventures forum show that even full four-PC parties at the right level are having a tough time with the adventure ... and I'd prefer not to have to be pulling punches all the time to keep the PCs alive, so it looks like they'll need to be levels 6-7. Since continuity is very important to you, I would suggest having a funeral for the Dead PC. This allows you to bring in your priest, have a younger brother of the PC show up for the funeral who then agrees to take up his quest and so has a built in tie with the party (but can still be a totally different class).They will be having a funeral, but as I've said, there's not much point in keeping the priest in the story (and I don't see it as a continuity issue to take him out. As I said, the players aren't even aware of him yet, so they certainly won't notice if I change it now ...). What do the other players think about him starting at level 4?I don't know - I haven't talked to them about it yet. We haven't discussed the game at all so far during the holidays. I think what I may end up doing is just letting him make a new PC at level 4, but make his XP be at the starting point (so he'll only be a little bit behind the others). Why not make the PC replacement level 3, but send the group on a side quest in oreder to level thetwo level 4 PCs up to 5 and the level 3 up to 4. That would also help offset the expected difficulties you foresee due to the small party size.This is what I fear I will have to do, as impatient as I am to get into RHoD. But it'll need to be more than just a short sidequest, as I think they'll really need to be level 6 or 7 to start RHoD. Well, how about this? Does the player like the character? The player has a priest mentor and the plot is based on the character, just have the priest bring the character back. In exchange, have the players now have to work for the priest to pay off the cost of the spell. You get a 4th level back, you might get a level or two of out the quest to get it back. Done is done. Isn't this a bit too easy? Bringing a PC back from the dead without any loss of level requires a very high-level spell. One the one hand, there isn't anyone in the land in which they're adventuring who could cast those spells anyway. On the other hand, even if there was someone who could, it seems a little too much of a cop-out on my part. They might come to expect that sort of easy "save and reload" style of play every time one of their characters dies. If you have intelligent, respectful players, bending the rules to make a game easier and more fun on all should be done. They should realize that you are doing them, and yourself a favor and respect you for that. I tend to ask my players what they would rather do, and I would definately do so in this situation. Ask them and give them options. Don't give away the plot, but let them know "Hey, I have this thing planned that you are too weak for right now. Do you give it a go, or do you want to go for a sidetrack first? Do you want your old char back, or are you willing to lose him and get a new one?" If your players are jerks and will take advantage of the situation, well then I can see why you wouldn't want to bend your rules.Fortunately my players are intelligent and respectful, so that's not a problem. I agree. With a good group that sort of punishment is not necessary. The only times when I feel it is, is when the party members are at risk of viewing their characters as "disposable." In long campaigns, the death of a character is its own punishment for my group, though.Yes, the point of having such a rule such is to make it so that when a PC dies there's no real advantage to making a new one (unless you have access to True Resurrection, the old PC will lose a level, so having a new PC be one level lower means that the player is more likely to want to have his old one brought back to life for continuity's sake or whatever ...). However, I don't think that my players would really want to deliberately kill their PCs in order to make new ones, so perhaps this rule is unnecessary in my campaign. Thanks for all your responses. I appreciate it. Keep 'em coming! Cheers, Jonny
DarkRhystar 12-30-06, 08:55 PM	How do you preplan when a character dies? I don't follow you on this, could you elaborate?
CharlieRock 12-30-06, 09:47 PM	I don't follow you on this, could you elaborate? You were saying something about a party of level 5s not being able to get through an encounter without two deaths. I was wondering how you plan an encounter to have two deaths into it. :eek:
taradusis 12-31-06, 02:56 AM	If you think you're having problems with a pc dying wait till one of your players move then you'll wish you had recruited more warm bodies while you had the chance!!!!!
Magrus 12-31-06, 01:01 PM	Isn't this a bit too easy? Bringing a PC back from the dead without any loss of level requires a very high-level spell. One the one hand, there isn't anyone in the land in which they're adventuring who could cast those spells anyway. On the other hand, even if there was someone who could, it seems a little too much of a cop-out on my part. They might come to expect that sort of easy "save and reload" style of play every time one of their characters dies. Fortunately my players are intelligent and respectful, so that's not a problem. It's all up to you. I was simply thinking of working with the problems you mentioned of having a dead player, and too low level of a party to do what you wanted. That seemed the most efficient method to deal with both in one shot. Granted, it does take a high level spell. However, I tend to run my games where group enjoyment takes priority over everything else. Letting broken things into the game ruins that, but I really wouldn't see the problem with charging the party with a quest if their downed member is brought back. If anything, having party members that are of differing levels makes it harder to deal with things in the party. Not only is the character now weaker, it is more likely to die again, which would put it further behind another level, and so on. I think it is a horrid method of dealing with things to be honest. Then again, I have been wanting to start a game with the plot involving a mixed level group. It isn't impossible, it just requires a lot of tactics involved on both sides to play out the strengths and cover the weaknesses all round.
pukunui 12-31-06, 03:09 PM	It's all up to you. I was simply thinking of working with the problems you mentioned of having a dead player, and too low level of a party to do what you wanted. That seemed the most efficient method to deal with both in one shot. Granted, it does take a high level spell. However, I tend to run my games where group enjoyment takes priority over everything else. Letting broken things into the game ruins that, but I really wouldn't see the problem with charging the party with a quest if their downed member is brought back. If anything, having party members that are of differing levels makes it harder to deal with things in the party. Not only is the character now weaker, it is more likely to die again, which would put it further behind another level, and so on. I think it is a horrid method of dealing with things to be honest. Then again, I have been wanting to start a game with the plot involving a mixed level group. It isn't impossible, it just requires a lot of tactics involved on both sides to play out the strengths and cover the weaknesses all round. I can certainly see where you're coming from ... I've done something similar before in a different campaign. The three of them got beat up pretty bad and I was getting annoyed with their propensity to just sleep off all their wounds (they're such a cautious group, always wanting to rest for days and days if they haven't got enough cure spells/potions or whatever), so I improvised an encounter in which an uber-cleric happened to be passing by, saw they were in need of his help, cast mass heal on them, and then went on his merry way. It was very much a deus ex machina - something which should be kept rare if used at all. However, returning the dead PC to life isn't really an issue. My player has already begun rolling up a new one. I told him that so long as the others don't object, he can make his new character level 4. The thing is, unless I were to have someone come along and cast True Resurrection (which, while certainly the most expedient solution, nevertheless stretches credibility a little too much -- there's no one that powerful in the area, for one thing), he'd still end up losing a level while being brought back to life ... and since he was level 3 when he died, that would mean he'd be level 2. That would be even worse than having my player roll up a new character at level 3. So he's really gaining a lot by me letting him roll up a new character at level 4.