A deceptive Paladin [Archive] - Wizards Community

A deceptive Paladin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Losoyo19
04-29-06, 08:51 PM Hey Guys,

I've found these boards to be infinitely helpful. I've been doing a campaign (as some of you may remember on Homebrew ((or workshop))) At this moment My characters have basically caused a civil war with in an empire that was extremely prosperous. They are wanted by two nations and a couple of independents.

This is ofcorse overbearing for 4 level 6 characters, so they've been able to find help and safety with someone who is routing for a certain side to win in the civil war. For their safety, he is going to have them do relative missions with them. Here is what I am considering:

I am tempted to send them on a mission to get a weapon, amulet, or something generic of great power that could help the side he wants to win. In order to spice it up, I was going to have him send an NPC with them who would possibly betray them or even leave them out to dry.

I was tempted to send a Paladin down into the depths of hell with them.

Now this Paladin would either be under the control of the man (Magical means by amulet or spell) OR she could be a spy working for the nation of the civil war so that the 4 pc's could be brought to justice and to stop the wrong side from winning.

The man that is harboring them is obviously CE ... Could a paladin pretend to work under him as long as she is either mind controlled, or working as a spy and not lose her powers? It would be tricky, but I'd imagine that a Paladin could nto have to do anything necessarily evil to work for someone like them. But she is being deceptive..

The reason I pose this is so that I can see if their are any real views that a paladin could do this.. Because once they realize what's happening, they're probably going to try to fight me on how a paladin should be played.. And besides the usualy 'I'm the DM, Damnit.. Now eat some cookiees and shut up'.. I'd like logical points to why i came to the conclusions I have.

And no, I'm not going to tell them it's a paladin. But you can usually guess after an hour of being with those people.
wrecan
04-29-06, 09:11 PM The man that is harboring them is obviously CE ... Could a paladin pretend to work under him as long as she is either mind controlled, or working as a spy and not lose her powers? It would be tricky, but I'd imagine that a Paladin could nto have to do anything necessarily evil to work for someone like them. But she is being deceptive..

Strictly, under the SRD, it would be so difficult as to be impossible.

"a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)"
(Under the class description of Code of Conduct for Paladins)

I'm having a lot of trouble imagining how a paladin could get away with working for a CE villainous mastermind without ever lying. Now, she only falls for a gross violation of her code, so one lie probably won't kill her. But it shouldn't take long for those lies to mount, and so I can't imagine she could pretend to work for this guy (even assuming she somehow avods having to commit an evil act for him) for more than a week.

Under the SRD, of course. You're welcome to house rule it any way you like.
Grunj
04-29-06, 09:19 PM Which deity? Hieroneous is big on Honor; deceit might be a problem for an ardent servant of Hieroneous. St. Cuthbert or Pelor would be another story. A halfling paladin of Yondalla would have no problem whatsoever using deception against enemies of the faith.

A paladin's alignment is meaningless without a context. What does the source of the paladin's powers believe is proper conduct? Every paladin should have a written code of conduct that clearly defines the behavioral expectations the church has for it's militant order. It can be a simple as a group of declarative statements on what a paladin is, like the Boy Scout oath. It's hokey, but it's a good starting point.

A paladin that makes a mistake, or succumbs to weakness in a moment of passion, be it love or rage, should be given a chance to atone. But only if it was an honest mistake and not an attempt to screw the system or manipulate the letter of the law at the expense of the spirit.

A paladin is serving as an agent of a Being that may quite literally be looking over the paladin's shoulder. Think of it as divine quality control assurance. The "We had to destroy the village to save the village" rationalizations that get substituted for thoughtful role-playing will never work with a being that can look into a person's soul through powers like detect thoughts and telepathy.

"The ends justify the means" is not a code of conduct that any exalted deity should tolerate. A paladin played this way has fallen, no question. The character would never have been allowed into the order if that was the true condition of their soul initially. If they go around committing atrocities in the name of the deity, the best they can hope for is to merely lose their powers. A visit from a celestial entity with the goal of putting the paladin down once and for all isn't out of line. In my opinion, that's one reason why Blackguards need a supernatural patron, for protection from the old management.

Running a paladin is a challenge for the player and the DM. It requires a mature, thoughtful approach. But in my opinion, it can be extremely rewarding if done well.
Losoyo19
04-29-06, 09:21 PM Hmm.. Fun fun. I think I'll make some type of character that wouldn't so drastically conflict and still be on the other side.. Thanks for your opinion.
Lord Ian Stark
04-29-06, 09:22 PM Those people aye? :P

Let's see. By RAW we have,

Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities

Willfully. Well let's look at atonement.

Hmm, they changed the atonement spell recently. It used to say it could help a Paladin who broke his code while under magical influence and commited evil. I guess they don't fall this way anymore. :)
Losoyo19
04-29-06, 09:27 PM My first reply was actually wrecan and not Grunjj as it looks. Perhaps it would be easier and make more sense to make a Character working for the other side.

If they worked for the man, they would definetly be lieing. The only reason for them to do it in that fashion would be so that they could find his end game plan and attempt to stop it. The empire is literally ripping itself apart. (because of the characters, and others, actions.) If they could stop the two major parts of it in one fell swoop and save thousands..

Perhaps I need to look up that Chaotic Good class that gets smite evil later on..that is fanatical paladin with out the need of the Lawful part.
Chrono Nexus
04-29-06, 09:34 PM I use a stricter version of the samurai's code of honor system from the OAs to allow for more flexible types of paladins. It dysects "Honor" into six different categories. A samurai (or paladin) must follow at least four of the six traits to remain honerable (constantly doing dishonerable acts can still change the player's alignment, however).
Grunj
04-30-06, 11:18 AM There are also alternate paladin varieties in Unearthed Arcana, Such as the CG Paladin of Freedom. The SRD has them here. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html)
Koji
04-30-06, 05:44 PM You could always just make him a blackguard. They would have little trouble pretending to be a paladin, especially if a wizard or someone was protecting him from alignment detection.

Try having him toss out a power attack against an evil enemy, shouting, "EVIL, BEGONE!" Players usually don't question what's going on and they will assume it's smite evil.
revnk
05-01-06, 05:10 PM Losoyo19, I think the answer is really up to you. There are good arguments to be made either way from either the RAW or by example. As a f'r'instance, one could consider Superman as a classic exemplar of a paladin--and yet he lies to everyone every time he dresses as Clark Kent, in order to protect those closest to him. In other words, lying for the greater good might be considered honorable and virtuous under proper circumstances.

On the other hand, one might consider that the "means do not justify the end," and decide that even a well-intentioned lie is a lie.

Personally, I would have no problem allowing a paladin to lie to the bad guys under most circumstances. Many players wouldn't even attempt it, though, role-playing the paladin as virtuously bull-headed about that kind of thing. And if a DM ruled that a paladin couldn't lie ever, I can't see how I would disagree with that ruling, either.

Not sure if that helps, but good luck either way.
Slider33
05-01-06, 05:30 PM Well....why use a paladin?

Anything "deceptive" or even "evil" are both polar opposites of what a paladin is, which is lawful and good. An anti-paladin or evil paladin would be better, but there is still the problem with lawfulness.

I would almost recommend using a cleric so you can avoid all of the alignment conflicts, unless of course you absolutely have to use a paladin for whatever reason.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Losoyo19 04-29-06, 08:51 PM	Hey Guys, I've found these boards to be infinitely helpful. I've been doing a campaign (as some of you may remember on Homebrew ((or workshop))) At this moment My characters have basically caused a civil war with in an empire that was extremely prosperous. They are wanted by two nations and a couple of independents. This is ofcorse overbearing for 4 level 6 characters, so they've been able to find help and safety with someone who is routing for a certain side to win in the civil war. For their safety, he is going to have them do relative missions with them. Here is what I am considering: I am tempted to send them on a mission to get a weapon, amulet, or something generic of great power that could help the side he wants to win. In order to spice it up, I was going to have him send an NPC with them who would possibly betray them or even leave them out to dry. I was tempted to send a Paladin down into the depths of hell with them. Now this Paladin would either be under the control of the man (Magical means by amulet or spell) OR she could be a spy working for the nation of the civil war so that the 4 pc's could be brought to justice and to stop the wrong side from winning. The man that is harboring them is obviously CE ... Could a paladin pretend to work under him as long as she is either mind controlled, or working as a spy and not lose her powers? It would be tricky, but I'd imagine that a Paladin could nto have to do anything necessarily evil to work for someone like them. But she is being deceptive.. The reason I pose this is so that I can see if their are any real views that a paladin could do this.. Because once they realize what's happening, they're probably going to try to fight me on how a paladin should be played.. And besides the usualy 'I'm the DM, Damnit.. Now eat some cookiees and shut up'.. I'd like logical points to why i came to the conclusions I have. And no, I'm not going to tell them it's a paladin. But you can usually guess after an hour of being with those people.
wrecan 04-29-06, 09:11 PM	The man that is harboring them is obviously CE ... Could a paladin pretend to work under him as long as she is either mind controlled, or working as a spy and not lose her powers? It would be tricky, but I'd imagine that a Paladin could nto have to do anything necessarily evil to work for someone like them. But she is being deceptive.. Strictly, under the SRD, it would be so difficult as to be impossible. "a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)" (Under the class description of Code of Conduct for Paladins) I'm having a lot of trouble imagining how a paladin could get away with working for a CE villainous mastermind without ever lying. Now, she only falls for a gross violation of her code, so one lie probably won't kill her. But it shouldn't take long for those lies to mount, and so I can't imagine she could pretend to work for this guy (even assuming she somehow avods having to commit an evil act for him) for more than a week. Under the SRD, of course. You're welcome to house rule it any way you like.
Grunj 04-29-06, 09:19 PM	Which deity? Hieroneous is big on Honor; deceit might be a problem for an ardent servant of Hieroneous. St. Cuthbert or Pelor would be another story. A halfling paladin of Yondalla would have no problem whatsoever using deception against enemies of the faith. A paladin's alignment is meaningless without a context. What does the source of the paladin's powers believe is proper conduct? Every paladin should have a written code of conduct that clearly defines the behavioral expectations the church has for it's militant order. It can be a simple as a group of declarative statements on what a paladin is, like the Boy Scout oath. It's hokey, but it's a good starting point. A paladin that makes a mistake, or succumbs to weakness in a moment of passion, be it love or rage, should be given a chance to atone. But only if it was an honest mistake and not an attempt to screw the system or manipulate the letter of the law at the expense of the spirit. A paladin is serving as an agent of a Being that may quite literally be looking over the paladin's shoulder. Think of it as divine quality control assurance. The "We had to destroy the village to save the village" rationalizations that get substituted for thoughtful role-playing will never work with a being that can look into a person's soul through powers like detect thoughts and telepathy. "The ends justify the means" is not a code of conduct that any exalted deity should tolerate. A paladin played this way has fallen, no question. The character would never have been allowed into the order if that was the true condition of their soul initially. If they go around committing atrocities in the name of the deity, the best they can hope for is to merely lose their powers. A visit from a celestial entity with the goal of putting the paladin down once and for all isn't out of line. In my opinion, that's one reason why Blackguards need a supernatural patron, for protection from the old management. Running a paladin is a challenge for the player and the DM. It requires a mature, thoughtful approach. But in my opinion, it can be extremely rewarding if done well.
Losoyo19 04-29-06, 09:21 PM	Hmm.. Fun fun. I think I'll make some type of character that wouldn't so drastically conflict and still be on the other side.. Thanks for your opinion.
Lord Ian Stark 04-29-06, 09:22 PM	Those people aye? :P Let's see. By RAW we have, Ex-Paladins A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities Willfully. Well let's look at atonement. Hmm, they changed the atonement spell recently. It used to say it could help a Paladin who broke his code while under magical influence and commited evil. I guess they don't fall this way anymore. :)
Losoyo19 04-29-06, 09:27 PM	My first reply was actually wrecan and not Grunjj as it looks. Perhaps it would be easier and make more sense to make a Character working for the other side. If they worked for the man, they would definetly be lieing. The only reason for them to do it in that fashion would be so that they could find his end game plan and attempt to stop it. The empire is literally ripping itself apart. (because of the characters, and others, actions.) If they could stop the two major parts of it in one fell swoop and save thousands.. Perhaps I need to look up that Chaotic Good class that gets smite evil later on..that is fanatical paladin with out the need of the Lawful part.
Chrono Nexus 04-29-06, 09:34 PM	I use a stricter version of the samurai's code of honor system from the OAs to allow for more flexible types of paladins. It dysects "Honor" into six different categories. A samurai (or paladin) must follow at least four of the six traits to remain honerable (constantly doing dishonerable acts can still change the player's alignment, however).
Grunj 04-30-06, 11:18 AM	There are also alternate paladin varieties in Unearthed Arcana, Such as the CG Paladin of Freedom. The SRD has them here. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html)
Koji 04-30-06, 05:44 PM	You could always just make him a blackguard. They would have little trouble pretending to be a paladin, especially if a wizard or someone was protecting him from alignment detection. Try having him toss out a power attack against an evil enemy, shouting, "EVIL, BEGONE!" Players usually don't question what's going on and they will assume it's smite evil.
revnk 05-01-06, 05:10 PM	Losoyo19, I think the answer is really up to you. There are good arguments to be made either way from either the RAW or by example. As a f'r'instance, one could consider Superman as a classic exemplar of a paladin--and yet he lies to everyone every time he dresses as Clark Kent, in order to protect those closest to him. In other words, lying for the greater good might be considered honorable and virtuous under proper circumstances. On the other hand, one might consider that the "means do not justify the end," and decide that even a well-intentioned lie is a lie. Personally, I would have no problem allowing a paladin to lie to the bad guys under most circumstances. Many players wouldn't even attempt it, though, role-playing the paladin as virtuously bull-headed about that kind of thing. And if a DM ruled that a paladin couldn't lie ever, I can't see how I would disagree with that ruling, either. Not sure if that helps, but good luck either way.
Slider33 05-01-06, 05:30 PM	Well....why use a paladin? Anything "deceptive" or even "evil" are both polar opposites of what a paladin is, which is lawful and good. An anti-paladin or evil paladin would be better, but there is still the problem with lawfulness. I would almost recommend using a cleric so you can avoid all of the alignment conflicts, unless of course you absolutely have to use a paladin for whatever reason.