A devilish insight needed (somewhat long) [Archive] - Wizards Community

A devilish insight needed (somewhat long) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CuttinCurt
05-10-07, 02:25 PM Greetings everyone. I was hoping to get a few ideas about a campaign that will eventually involve Devils. I could spend all day describing my scenario, but instead, I will list the highlights then ask the questions.

1) This is a Mercenary Campaign with the PC's in a single squad. One of the Pc's is the squad leader.
2) There is no stipulation on them to stay in the Mercenary Group. They have free will in this area. It is just how we are starting off.
3) They are in a realm where demons and devils rampaged across the land in their eternal struggle and were finally defeated and their portals destroyed. There are remnants of the demons and devils in the land, but they are scattered and without a main leader.
4) The Town the Pc's are employed by, use them to scout, map, and clear the surrounding land of any more pockets of evil. The Devils and Demons were in control of this Australia sized continent for over 200 years. They experimented and enslaved humanoids during this time. So there are mutations of just about anything, and Fiendish and Dire templated creatures are everywhere.
5) The group I am DM'ing is quite chaotic, and since the other 2 dm's in this campaign are concentrating on other aspects of the world, I decided to use the Devils.

Now my questions.

1) What Creatures would Devils use to enslave to their will from the material plane. I am not looking for intelligent creatures, but rather, pawns that follow the Devils command without thought. Do Vermin fit in to this question?

2) I am curious, (since Tiamat is the ultimate enemy in this campaign), what would be a good "lesser evil" for these PC's to take on that is Devil related? (remember, I have a great storyline, I am needing to fill it with realistic devil combinations). What I am thinking on this one is having an Ice Devil with a Bone Devil underling as its right hand man. I need devils that can construct buildings and carve through rock or shape it to provide a base of operations for this group. Any thoughts here?

3) What else would make sense in this scenario... I have placed a city, carved out of the sheer cliff face, which overlooks a large area of flatland. It is elevated over a hundred feet from the ground, and it has tunnels that run from the city to the ground underneath. The flat land is about a 100 square miles in all diretions out from the cliff face. However, starting at about 1000yards out from the cliff face, in a semi-circle radius, I have Fiendish Trap Door Spiders that were grown and bred to protect the ground approach to the city. Since it has been over 2 decades since the Devils and Demons fought over this place, I figure that the spiders have since begun to die, feed on eachother, or some such thing where only the most hardy of them are left. Thousands and Thousands of trap door holes, where these large spiders were, litter the ground as the pc's would approach this place. What else could take refuge in these holes? I am still having the largest of the spiders alive near the entrance of the caves by the cliff face, but am looking for something to fill some of these holes in the outer ring. Any Ideas?

4) Lastly, is there any way to bring in Naga's into the tunnels under the city. Without the Devils there, I can not see enslaved naga's still living in these tunnels. Is there another type of naga that better fits this scenario that I am unaware of? I do not have the Serpent Kingdoms book, but I have all the MM's. Could someone pipe in on this and let me know if this is "realistic" and what might be a better option if not.

Thanks, and I hope this is explained well. And I am looking for ideas that we can discuss here. Thanks in advance.

CC ( I am going to lunch, I will be back to debate with you all in an hour )
Witch
05-10-07, 02:29 PM 1) What Creatures would Devils use to enslave to their will from the material plane. I am not looking for intelligent creatures, but rather, pawns that follow the Devils command without thought. Do Vermin fit in to this question?
Vermin aren't a challenge. They are mindless. A Devil would seek to subjugate and enslave all of creation, not merely the pathetic wrenches that are vermin.

2) I am curious, (since Tiamat is the ultimate enemy in this campaign), what would be a good "lesser evil" for these PC's to take on that is Devil related? (remember, I have a great storyline, I am needing to fill it with realistic devil combinations). What I am thinking on this one is having an Ice Devil with a Bone Devil underling as its right hand man. I need devils that can construct buildings and carve through rock or shape it to provide a base of operations for this group. Any thoughts here?
If Tiamat is your main enemy, a bone devil should be pathetic in comparison, as would a bone devil. Have Pit Fiends, possibly advanced with class levels, as Tiamat's underlings. They should be able to rally enough devils, or enslave plenty mortals, to construct buildings.
Phrennzy
05-10-07, 03:57 PM Instead of mindless creatures, why not lower intellect ones that are therefore easier to keep in line, but are able to reason and follow instructions?

I would suggest Gray Renders, Umber Hulks, Trolls, Ogres, Giants - a Truly Horrific Umber Hulk with the Fiendish template would be nice.

How about a Half Fiend Roper as a guard for your devilish areas. Blends right in.

The naga, if freed of their chains, may very well stay in the area, claiming it as their own, and making it more suitable to their needs. Nagas are spellcasters and charmers in their own right, and could therefore take a page from the Devils' handbook and have subjugated creatures working for them, building a better underground complex.

If Tiamat is the Main Enemy, then not only should the sub enemy be a devil, but also a dragon. So you have Half-Dragon Ice Devils, or Half-Fiend Dragons, or Fiendish Half-Dragon Medusa, with her little snakes looking more like little dragon heads, and that is where part, or all, of her breath weapon shoots from. I personally am planning on using the Medusa idea on my PCs.
Madoffler
05-10-07, 03:58 PM 1) What Creatures would Devils use to enslave to their will from the material plane. I am not looking for intelligent creatures, but rather, pawns that follow the Devils command without thought. Do Vermin fit in to this question?

Enslave is probably the wrong word for unintelligent creatures. Corrupt maybe? If thats the case then anything goes really.

2) I am curious, (since Tiamat is the ultimate enemy in this campaign), what would be a good "lesser evil" for these PC's to take on that is Devil related? (remember, I have a great storyline, I am needing to fill it with realistic devil combinations). What I am thinking on this one is having an Ice Devil with a Bone Devil underling as its right hand man. I need devils that can construct buildings and carve through rock or shape it to provide a base of operations for this group. Any thoughts here?

You could add the half dragon template to a Pit Fiend to make a fearsome second in comand. Devils shouldn't have a problem constructing buildings, or better yet enslaveing others to do the mienial labor.

3) What else would make sense in this scenario... I have placed a city, carved out of the sheer cliff face, which overlooks a large area of flatland. It is elevated over a hundred feet from the ground, and it has tunnels that run from the city to the ground underneath. The flat land is about a 100 square miles in all diretions out from the cliff face. However, starting at about 1000yards out from the cliff face, in a semi-circle radius, I have Fiendish Trap Door Spiders that were grown and bred to protect the ground approach to the city. Since it has been over 2 decades since the Devils and Demons fought over this place, I figure that the spiders have since begun to die, feed on eachother, or some such thing where only the most hardy of them are left. Thousands and Thousands of trap door holes, where these large spiders were, litter the ground as the pc's would approach this place. What else could take refuge in these holes? I am still having the largest of the spiders alive near the entrance of the caves by the cliff face, but am looking for something to fill some of these holes in the outer ring. Any Ideas?

First thing I thought of were Ettercap (you so rarely get to use these guys!) Add a feindish template to them to up the CR.

4) Lastly, is there any way to bring in Naga's into the tunnels under the city. Without the Devils there, I can not see enslaved naga's still living in these tunnels. Is there another type of naga that better fits this scenario that I am unaware of? I do not have the Serpent Kingdoms book, but I have all the MM's. Could someone pipe in on this and let me know if this is "realistic" and what might be a better option if not.

Well if you want a socitey under there then useing the Formians could be interesting. Another option would be Umberhulks.
Navigator
05-10-07, 04:26 PM Depending on how long this area has been occupied, you could have teiflings (sp?) all over the place. These guys would be great to make the arcane casters you need to get things done, as well as any other job that can only be done with class levels.

I would strongly suggest getting Fiendish Codex II if you don't already have it. Also, a reading of K's Tome of Fiends would be great (don't have a link atm).
CuttinCurt
05-10-07, 04:40 PM To answer the second part first,

If Tiamat is your main enemy, a bone devil should be pathetic in comparison, as would a bone devil. Have Pit Fiends, possibly advanced with class levels, as Tiamat's underlings. They should be able to rally enough devils, or enslave plenty mortals, to construct buildings.

I was kinda wanting to stay away from the Pit Fiends, mainly as the story line implies that the Devils are without a True Leader on the materail plane right now. A pit Fiend would rally all the left over devils. Remember, it has been 20 years since they were defeated. I dont think a Pit Fiend would be left alive. Tiamat is also not on the material plane as of yet. I realize I should have been more specific, so I am doing so now. At this time, The devils are scattered. PArt of my plan is to organize them as the PC's start running into some of the lesser ones out on missions for this Ice Devil.

Now for the First response,

Vermin aren't a challenge. They are mindless. A Devil would seek to subjugate and enslave all of creation, not merely the pathetic wrenches that are vermin.

We are at lvl 3 right now. So Fiendish Large Trapdoor spiders are more than good enough for them right now. However, I will definately not have to use them once the hit lvl 6 or so except as filler if the revisit some of the places they hit while gaining 6th lvl.

Thanks for the reply and I hope this gives more info. Thanks, CC
CuttinCurt
05-10-07, 05:04 PM I am trying to get to each one of these, so please be patient. I appreciate the good words and ideas.

First off I do have the Fiendish Codex II. It has helped greatly. and I know that several of you have sugggested the Half Dragon and Half Fiend Templates on some of the main creatures. I like that alot. Very much. That has actually spurned my mind into many different directions.

Phrennzy, Madoffler, and Witch, I like the Ideas. A half-dragon Medusa sounds Wicked-Cool (and I am mr. deeds), with little dragon heads instead of snakes. Maybe even making them chormatic with 2 of each color dealing 1d6 damage breath weapons.... hmmm.

Puting the Half Dragon template on the main Devils is perfect to buff them up, and thanks for the Naga info. I appreciate that.

Instead of mindless creatures, why not lower intellect ones that are therefore easier to keep in line, but are able to reason and follow instructions?

I would suggest Gray Renders, Umber Hulks, Trolls, Ogres, Giants - a Truly Horrific Umber Hulk with the Fiendish template would be nice.

How about a Half Fiend Roper as a guard for your devilish areas. Blends right in.

The naga, if freed of their chains, may very well stay in the area, claiming it as their own, and making it more suitable to their needs. Nagas are spellcasters and charmers in their own right, and could therefore take a page from the Devils' handbook and have subjugated creatures working for them, building a better underground complex.

A Half Fiend Roper is great in one of the deeper halls that leads to a main area of the city above. That has lots of possibilities. Excellent suggestion. I can use this.

And the Umber Hulks are perfect. After reading their description, I knew they had to be put in the caves.

I will be back shortly to reply to the rest.

Thanks again. This is really good stuff.

CC
krichaiushii
05-10-07, 05:48 PM A half-fiend treant druid for a higher-level boss on the prime material? Served by awakened fiendish dire critters (boars and bears as barbarians, wolves and big cats as rogues, assorted birds as sorcerers or bards or druids).
Necrosis
05-10-07, 06:22 PM I'd suggest you splinter the groups of devils into several factions-this would allow the PC's to engage in a varitiy of devilish organisations and have a varity of level of oppenents to fight, a varity of motivations and a variaty of scale of plots.

Why not have a massive netwrok of tunnels under the city left over form the war? The first few levels can be pretty minor, but if they go deeper say to where a a destoryed portol was, theres nothign wrong with all sorts of nasties living down there.
CuttinCurt
05-11-07, 10:54 AM Necrosis:
Why not have a massive netwrok of tunnels under the city left over form the war? The first few levels can be pretty minor, but if they go deeper say to where a a destoryed portol was, theres nothign wrong with all sorts of nasties living down there.

The more I think about it, the better off I am making the tunnels more extensive and filled with horrors. The main goal for this leg of the journey is to explore and find out what that elevated city is and what is housed within.

So I think that would be an excellent Idea.

As far as the splinter groups of Devils, there will definately be a structured chain of command within these groups of devils, just as described in the FCII, and their orders will be specific. It will be fun to see how this chaotic mess of a group will work against the structured tactics of the Devils. That is what I look forward to the most.

krichaiushii
A half-fiend treant druid for a higher-level boss on the prime material? Served by awakened fiendish dire critters (boars and bears as barbarians, wolves and big cats as rogues, assorted birds as sorcerers or bards or druids).

I did have the dire woverines planned as the theme here seems to be burrowing creatures, (trap door spiders, ankegs, ect...), which makes the umber hulks that much more desireable as well. I do think there should be some arial critters still be around from that time. I will start looking that up as well and get that planned. I dont know about the treant druid, but I like the boss idea for the arial units to have some sorcerer levels. That would fit nicely.

Thanks. These Ideas have really helped. I am DM'ing this group the first part of July, and I will let you all know what happens. This has grown more in scope than I ever expected. Your Ideas will be credited to you in a follow up post. I will let you all know what happens in july.

I am still very much up on any more Ideas. Thank you in advance.

CC

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CuttinCurt 05-10-07, 02:25 PM	Greetings everyone. I was hoping to get a few ideas about a campaign that will eventually involve Devils. I could spend all day describing my scenario, but instead, I will list the highlights then ask the questions. 1) This is a Mercenary Campaign with the PC's in a single squad. One of the Pc's is the squad leader. 2) There is no stipulation on them to stay in the Mercenary Group. They have free will in this area. It is just how we are starting off. 3) They are in a realm where demons and devils rampaged across the land in their eternal struggle and were finally defeated and their portals destroyed. There are remnants of the demons and devils in the land, but they are scattered and without a main leader. 4) The Town the Pc's are employed by, use them to scout, map, and clear the surrounding land of any more pockets of evil. The Devils and Demons were in control of this Australia sized continent for over 200 years. They experimented and enslaved humanoids during this time. So there are mutations of just about anything, and Fiendish and Dire templated creatures are everywhere. 5) The group I am DM'ing is quite chaotic, and since the other 2 dm's in this campaign are concentrating on other aspects of the world, I decided to use the Devils. Now my questions. 1) What Creatures would Devils use to enslave to their will from the material plane. I am not looking for intelligent creatures, but rather, pawns that follow the Devils command without thought. Do Vermin fit in to this question? 2) I am curious, (since Tiamat is the ultimate enemy in this campaign), what would be a good "lesser evil" for these PC's to take on that is Devil related? (remember, I have a great storyline, I am needing to fill it with realistic devil combinations). What I am thinking on this one is having an Ice Devil with a Bone Devil underling as its right hand man. I need devils that can construct buildings and carve through rock or shape it to provide a base of operations for this group. Any thoughts here? 3) What else would make sense in this scenario... I have placed a city, carved out of the sheer cliff face, which overlooks a large area of flatland. It is elevated over a hundred feet from the ground, and it has tunnels that run from the city to the ground underneath. The flat land is about a 100 square miles in all diretions out from the cliff face. However, starting at about 1000yards out from the cliff face, in a semi-circle radius, I have Fiendish Trap Door Spiders that were grown and bred to protect the ground approach to the city. Since it has been over 2 decades since the Devils and Demons fought over this place, I figure that the spiders have since begun to die, feed on eachother, or some such thing where only the most hardy of them are left. Thousands and Thousands of trap door holes, where these large spiders were, litter the ground as the pc's would approach this place. What else could take refuge in these holes? I am still having the largest of the spiders alive near the entrance of the caves by the cliff face, but am looking for something to fill some of these holes in the outer ring. Any Ideas? 4) Lastly, is there any way to bring in Naga's into the tunnels under the city. Without the Devils there, I can not see enslaved naga's still living in these tunnels. Is there another type of naga that better fits this scenario that I am unaware of? I do not have the Serpent Kingdoms book, but I have all the MM's. Could someone pipe in on this and let me know if this is "realistic" and what might be a better option if not. Thanks, and I hope this is explained well. And I am looking for ideas that we can discuss here. Thanks in advance. CC ( I am going to lunch, I will be back to debate with you all in an hour )
Witch 05-10-07, 02:29 PM	1) What Creatures would Devils use to enslave to their will from the material plane. I am not looking for intelligent creatures, but rather, pawns that follow the Devils command without thought. Do Vermin fit in to this question? Vermin aren't a challenge. They are mindless. A Devil would seek to subjugate and enslave all of creation, not merely the pathetic wrenches that are vermin. 2) I am curious, (since Tiamat is the ultimate enemy in this campaign), what would be a good "lesser evil" for these PC's to take on that is Devil related? (remember, I have a great storyline, I am needing to fill it with realistic devil combinations). What I am thinking on this one is having an Ice Devil with a Bone Devil underling as its right hand man. I need devils that can construct buildings and carve through rock or shape it to provide a base of operations for this group. Any thoughts here? If Tiamat is your main enemy, a bone devil should be pathetic in comparison, as would a bone devil. Have Pit Fiends, possibly advanced with class levels, as Tiamat's underlings. They should be able to rally enough devils, or enslave plenty mortals, to construct buildings.
Phrennzy 05-10-07, 03:57 PM	Instead of mindless creatures, why not lower intellect ones that are therefore easier to keep in line, but are able to reason and follow instructions? I would suggest Gray Renders, Umber Hulks, Trolls, Ogres, Giants - a Truly Horrific Umber Hulk with the Fiendish template would be nice. How about a Half Fiend Roper as a guard for your devilish areas. Blends right in. The naga, if freed of their chains, may very well stay in the area, claiming it as their own, and making it more suitable to their needs. Nagas are spellcasters and charmers in their own right, and could therefore take a page from the Devils' handbook and have subjugated creatures working for them, building a better underground complex. If Tiamat is the Main Enemy, then not only should the sub enemy be a devil, but also a dragon. So you have Half-Dragon Ice Devils, or Half-Fiend Dragons, or Fiendish Half-Dragon Medusa, with her little snakes looking more like little dragon heads, and that is where part, or all, of her breath weapon shoots from. I personally am planning on using the Medusa idea on my PCs.
Madoffler 05-10-07, 03:58 PM	1) What Creatures would Devils use to enslave to their will from the material plane. I am not looking for intelligent creatures, but rather, pawns that follow the Devils command without thought. Do Vermin fit in to this question? Enslave is probably the wrong word for unintelligent creatures. Corrupt maybe? If thats the case then anything goes really. 2) I am curious, (since Tiamat is the ultimate enemy in this campaign), what would be a good "lesser evil" for these PC's to take on that is Devil related? (remember, I have a great storyline, I am needing to fill it with realistic devil combinations). What I am thinking on this one is having an Ice Devil with a Bone Devil underling as its right hand man. I need devils that can construct buildings and carve through rock or shape it to provide a base of operations for this group. Any thoughts here? You could add the half dragon template to a Pit Fiend to make a fearsome second in comand. Devils shouldn't have a problem constructing buildings, or better yet enslaveing others to do the mienial labor. 3) What else would make sense in this scenario... I have placed a city, carved out of the sheer cliff face, which overlooks a large area of flatland. It is elevated over a hundred feet from the ground, and it has tunnels that run from the city to the ground underneath. The flat land is about a 100 square miles in all diretions out from the cliff face. However, starting at about 1000yards out from the cliff face, in a semi-circle radius, I have Fiendish Trap Door Spiders that were grown and bred to protect the ground approach to the city. Since it has been over 2 decades since the Devils and Demons fought over this place, I figure that the spiders have since begun to die, feed on eachother, or some such thing where only the most hardy of them are left. Thousands and Thousands of trap door holes, where these large spiders were, litter the ground as the pc's would approach this place. What else could take refuge in these holes? I am still having the largest of the spiders alive near the entrance of the caves by the cliff face, but am looking for something to fill some of these holes in the outer ring. Any Ideas? First thing I thought of were Ettercap (you so rarely get to use these guys!) Add a feindish template to them to up the CR. 4) Lastly, is there any way to bring in Naga's into the tunnels under the city. Without the Devils there, I can not see enslaved naga's still living in these tunnels. Is there another type of naga that better fits this scenario that I am unaware of? I do not have the Serpent Kingdoms book, but I have all the MM's. Could someone pipe in on this and let me know if this is "realistic" and what might be a better option if not. Well if you want a socitey under there then useing the Formians could be interesting. Another option would be Umberhulks.
Navigator 05-10-07, 04:26 PM	Depending on how long this area has been occupied, you could have teiflings (sp?) all over the place. These guys would be great to make the arcane casters you need to get things done, as well as any other job that can only be done with class levels. I would strongly suggest getting Fiendish Codex II if you don't already have it. Also, a reading of K's Tome of Fiends would be great (don't have a link atm).
CuttinCurt 05-10-07, 04:40 PM	To answer the second part first, If Tiamat is your main enemy, a bone devil should be pathetic in comparison, as would a bone devil. Have Pit Fiends, possibly advanced with class levels, as Tiamat's underlings. They should be able to rally enough devils, or enslave plenty mortals, to construct buildings. I was kinda wanting to stay away from the Pit Fiends, mainly as the story line implies that the Devils are without a True Leader on the materail plane right now. A pit Fiend would rally all the left over devils. Remember, it has been 20 years since they were defeated. I dont think a Pit Fiend would be left alive. Tiamat is also not on the material plane as of yet. I realize I should have been more specific, so I am doing so now. At this time, The devils are scattered. PArt of my plan is to organize them as the PC's start running into some of the lesser ones out on missions for this Ice Devil. Now for the First response, Vermin aren't a challenge. They are mindless. A Devil would seek to subjugate and enslave all of creation, not merely the pathetic wrenches that are vermin. We are at lvl 3 right now. So Fiendish Large Trapdoor spiders are more than good enough for them right now. However, I will definately not have to use them once the hit lvl 6 or so except as filler if the revisit some of the places they hit while gaining 6th lvl. Thanks for the reply and I hope this gives more info. Thanks, CC
CuttinCurt 05-10-07, 05:04 PM	I am trying to get to each one of these, so please be patient. I appreciate the good words and ideas. First off I do have the Fiendish Codex II. It has helped greatly. and I know that several of you have sugggested the Half Dragon and Half Fiend Templates on some of the main creatures. I like that alot. Very much. That has actually spurned my mind into many different directions. Phrennzy, Madoffler, and Witch, I like the Ideas. A half-dragon Medusa sounds Wicked-Cool (and I am mr. deeds), with little dragon heads instead of snakes. Maybe even making them chormatic with 2 of each color dealing 1d6 damage breath weapons.... hmmm. Puting the Half Dragon template on the main Devils is perfect to buff them up, and thanks for the Naga info. I appreciate that. Instead of mindless creatures, why not lower intellect ones that are therefore easier to keep in line, but are able to reason and follow instructions? I would suggest Gray Renders, Umber Hulks, Trolls, Ogres, Giants - a Truly Horrific Umber Hulk with the Fiendish template would be nice. How about a Half Fiend Roper as a guard for your devilish areas. Blends right in. The naga, if freed of their chains, may very well stay in the area, claiming it as their own, and making it more suitable to their needs. Nagas are spellcasters and charmers in their own right, and could therefore take a page from the Devils' handbook and have subjugated creatures working for them, building a better underground complex. A Half Fiend Roper is great in one of the deeper halls that leads to a main area of the city above. That has lots of possibilities. Excellent suggestion. I can use this. And the Umber Hulks are perfect. After reading their description, I knew they had to be put in the caves. I will be back shortly to reply to the rest. Thanks again. This is really good stuff. CC
krichaiushii 05-10-07, 05:48 PM	A half-fiend treant druid for a higher-level boss on the prime material? Served by awakened fiendish dire critters (boars and bears as barbarians, wolves and big cats as rogues, assorted birds as sorcerers or bards or druids).
Necrosis 05-10-07, 06:22 PM	I'd suggest you splinter the groups of devils into several factions-this would allow the PC's to engage in a varitiy of devilish organisations and have a varity of level of oppenents to fight, a varity of motivations and a variaty of scale of plots. Why not have a massive netwrok of tunnels under the city left over form the war? The first few levels can be pretty minor, but if they go deeper say to where a a destoryed portol was, theres nothign wrong with all sorts of nasties living down there.
CuttinCurt 05-11-07, 10:54 AM	Necrosis: Why not have a massive netwrok of tunnels under the city left over form the war? The first few levels can be pretty minor, but if they go deeper say to where a a destoryed portol was, theres nothign wrong with all sorts of nasties living down there. The more I think about it, the better off I am making the tunnels more extensive and filled with horrors. The main goal for this leg of the journey is to explore and find out what that elevated city is and what is housed within. So I think that would be an excellent Idea. As far as the splinter groups of Devils, there will definately be a structured chain of command within these groups of devils, just as described in the FCII, and their orders will be specific. It will be fun to see how this chaotic mess of a group will work against the structured tactics of the Devils. That is what I look forward to the most. krichaiushii A half-fiend treant druid for a higher-level boss on the prime material? Served by awakened fiendish dire critters (boars and bears as barbarians, wolves and big cats as rogues, assorted birds as sorcerers or bards or druids). I did have the dire woverines planned as the theme here seems to be burrowing creatures, (trap door spiders, ankegs, ect...), which makes the umber hulks that much more desireable as well. I do think there should be some arial critters still be around from that time. I will start looking that up as well and get that planned. I dont know about the treant druid, but I like the boss idea for the arial units to have some sorcerer levels. That would fit nicely. Thanks. These Ideas have really helped. I am DM'ing this group the first part of July, and I will let you all know what happens. This has grown more in scope than I ever expected. Your Ideas will be credited to you in a follow up post. I will let you all know what happens in july. I am still very much up on any more Ideas. Thank you in advance. CC