A DM in a corner! [Archive] - Wizards Community

A DM in a corner! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
andrewburk
11-12-06, 08:51 AM alrighty, ive got my group of 4th level power gamers in a dungeoun, thats cursed, every day at the same time, in the main room, about 60 or so skeletons appear and stay for about 7 rounds and then dissappear, and repeat, day after day until the curse is broken. i was totally not thinking ahead, aside from one of the players having a cleric (well she wasnt there for the first encounter) i have a player whos character is a tank, decent dex, saved up for full plate, shield, dodge, mobility, works out that his AC sits around 23-25 when holding his ground. and then 2 other characters that sit slightly lower then that in terms of high AC and high damage dealing. Then comes the rogue and cleric. I dont want to punish them for creating characters like this, they are new. so i was wondering what kind of tactics should i use, to at least make the fight risky, when in the first encounter they kinda proved they had a nice chance of killing them all!

round by round..

1st) they could be anywhere in the room, slighty separated, looking at different things, then the wind picks up, some hard to decipher whispering in the air, chills down the spine, and then all light even magical gets snuffed out for a round.

2nd) next the darkness gives way to the light in a weird like wave, it receeds revealing, that the characters are surrounded by hordes of skeletons, all looking like they mean business.

3rd)the skeletons all move towards the characters to surround and flank them, and start attacking.

4th) and this is where is goes sour. the tank can stand there and take it, at 23-25 AC, even mass flanking skeletons cant hit him on anything less then a nat20 roll. combo'ed with the powerattack,cleave, hes smashing 2 a turn without a sweat. plus if he wants to run away, hes got +4 AC for Attacks of Opportunity, when running away! which is fine by me, its running away!

now, does anybody have any ideas where i could actually make the combat a little more dangerous, am i missing some odd rule, or a tactic that someone likes to use...

i would preferably like not to raise the stats of the skeletons, then i would have to raise the CR and exp, but i will if thats my last option, just to make it a touch harder for them!

thanks in advance
CharlieRock
11-12-06, 08:53 AM Grapplin' Skellys?
Seriously, with that many they could just surround and dog-pile them. :plotting:

P.S. Arm the skellys with scimitars, or axes. Then after one or two grapples the characters the rest can just pound away. Even if they hit one of their own, its likely not going to hurt.
LCD2YOU
11-12-06, 08:58 AM Ever see the movie "Stargate"?

Remember at the end when the two glider pilots were surrounded by a bunch of slaves and the slaves just kept on coming? Even a powerful character can get drsgged down and taken out when their are enough beings who don't care about their well being.

I think Zombies would work better and they have more weight behind them but skeletons would work just as well.
andrewburk
11-12-06, 09:45 AM Grapplin' Skellys?
Seriously, with that many they could just surround and dog-pile them. :plotting:

P.S. Arm the skellys with scimitars, or axes. Then after one or two grapples the characters the rest can just pound away. Even if they hit one of their own, its likely not going to hurt.

sounds like a good idea, and i was reading the grappling rules, but a standard skeleton, doesnt have much of a chance to win a grapple against a 4th level fighter with 18 strength!, and the grapple rules dont really take about combining more then one skeleton, to start a dogpile, well ive only got the players guide3.5, is there rules for this, or how would you rule it to be fair..?

thanks
Radijs
11-12-06, 09:46 AM I think that indeed grappling and/or tripping is the best thing you can do in this case. The fighter gets 1 AOO each round, I dont think he has combat reflexes?
Once he's caught he already loses dex to AC, the next time he gets pinned is another -4 and if they get him flat on his back thats another -4 You'll knock his AC to somewhere around 12-15. An easy hit for a skellie. And since there are so many of em...
Aegeu
11-12-06, 09:55 AM Aid another to simulate dogpiling. 8 skeletons = +14 to one skeleton's attack.
orionm42
11-12-06, 09:55 AM If these are human warrior skeletons with a 1/3CR, they are just not appropriate for a group of 4th level power gamers.

My advice is to mix up the type of undead that magically "appear" in the room. Try to use some incorporeal creatures that can get through the tank's AC...hit 'em with a couple of Allips, for example.

Edit: You can still have a group of skeletons appear...just have them be led by a nastier undead beastie.
CharlieRock
11-12-06, 09:56 AM sounds like a good idea, and i was reading the grappling rules, but a standard skeleton, doesnt have much of a chance to win a grapple against a 4th level fighter with 18 strength!, and the grapple rules dont really take about combining more then one skeleton, to start a dogpile, well ive only got the players guide3.5, is there rules for this, or how would you rule it to be fair..?

thanks
They have only a +1 grapple, true. But, then again they are (human type) only CR1/3. Perhaps if some were armed with nets? Or flails? Nets are in the DMG (?) ... not sure. I know they are in the core rules, because I just saw them ... ;)
orionm42
11-12-06, 10:04 AM Aid another to simulate dogpiling. 8 skeletons = +14 to one skeleton's attack.

Not bad! :) I guess the only problem is you still only get the damage from one skeleton per round. At a measly 1d6+1, the tank is still likely to survive.
orionm42
11-12-06, 10:12 AM Along the lines of the dog piling suggestion...what are the rules for mobs (I think this is in the DMG2)?

Don't mobs attack as a single creature which fights more effectively than its component creatures? If this is the case, perhaps you could turn a bunch of lower level skeletons into a more formidable opponent.
CharlieRock
11-12-06, 10:17 AM PHB pg.119 = Nets :D
orionm42
11-12-06, 10:20 AM Oooooooo!:D

Just checked out the mob (page 59 of DMG2). +15BAB with 5d6 damage per round!!

Problem is it is a CR8 as written! :weep:

You might want to modify it slightly to reduce the CR, while still keeping some of the same conceptual features.
byakuganbrawler
11-12-06, 10:21 AM I have the statistics for a skeleton known as a bane guard

Bane guard 4d12hp

claws +2melee
l sword 1d8 + 2

magic missle 2 missles every 3 rounds blink/10min.
ac 15 or 16

its in lost empires of faruen
byakuganbrawler
11-12-06, 10:25 AM have a necromancer or something to augment them with spells
GhostOfJacK
11-12-06, 10:33 AM Sunder. I don't know how easily they can even hit, but if they can, fourteen later, he has no shield, or fullpate or whatnot. Denying him his Dex bonus won't do much because that (Ifyou are playing with normal full plate rules) is only 1 Dex taken off. OooooOOo. If you can sunder his full plate, all the better because then though you can't physically hurt him, you cripple his coinpurse and you also deny him 8 AC right there.

Archers. Equip some of them with bows perhaps. So what if they fire into the crowd. It won't do much the a regular 3.5 Skeleton and could eat away at especially the back row people (Rogue and cleric?).

Bigger threat. Have one time, after the battle, the room make the skeltons disappear, then turn black and then red for a second. Something spectacular and then you have a reaon to throw bigger enemies at them like even a dracolich (bone dragon?) or the such. If you want to be paticularily evil, throw the big baddie at them right after the battle, so they have two battles.

Advancement. Advance your skeleton so they are a few CRs higher. Also give them character classes so you have a 2 Ftr Human Skeleton, and deal that way. You can also equip your skeltons. Give them full plate themselves and see how easy it is to hit them then. For visualistic fun, full plate and mauls (complete warrior) will be good to go.
andrewburk
11-12-06, 10:35 AM Oooooooo!:D

Just checked out the mob (page 59 of DMG2). +15BAB with 5d6 damage per round!!

Problem is it is a CR8 as written! :weep:

You might want to modify it slightly to reduce the CR, while still keeping some of the same conceptual features.

thats exactly what im looking for! Mob rules!!!! literally! thanks, except i dont know what BAB means! or the exact rules for mob, i dont have that book.

i might keep it as a CR8 cause its suppose to be hard, amoungst the 60 or so appearing skeletons, is one wearing the last amulet, to help break the curse, first they have to spot it, then have to figure out how to get it from it without dying, so it might take multiple nights of attempting. Im a tough DM, but once they demonstrated some sort of plan, i would eventually allow them to win, with some struggle. i have 2players who are in the army reserves taking all kinds of tactics courses, so this is easy for them to set up plans out of game!

thanks
orionm42
11-12-06, 10:40 AM thats exactly what im looking for! Mob rules!!!! literally! thanks, except i dont know what BAB means! or the exact rules for mob, i dont have that book.

Thanks.

BAB= Base attack bonus.

No problem!

I'd love to post the rules for you, but I don't think the material is OGL (open gaming license). As such, it would be a code of conduct violation for me to publish the rules here.

Sorry about that.
Radijs
11-12-06, 11:33 AM You can also just give the skeletons a few more hit dice. Then they will quickly become more dangerous.
On_the_wings_of_TPK
11-12-06, 06:29 PM Just thought I'd point this out, but 60 skellies, is an EL 9. If you don't manage to kill most of your party with this, then you've done something wrong. What exactly did you want from us again?
pyropetey9
11-12-06, 06:45 PM Just thought I'd point this out, but 60 skellies, is an EL 9. If you don't manage to kill most of your party with this, then you've done something wrong. What exactly did you want from us again?

Your math is sound, but there's a principle of economics called the Law of Diminishing Returns, and it applies here as well. As mentioned briefly in the DMG, increasing the number of a given type of monster only makes the encounter more difficult up to a certain point. It's hard to say exactly when adding more enemies stops posing a problem for the party, but I'd guess that it's somewhere around this point.

For the OP, I recommend using the rules for the mob. It makes better sense, and it limits the numbers you'll be crunching when it comes time to roll initiative.
Vaelan
11-12-06, 07:30 PM Just thought I'd point this out, but 60 skellies, is an EL 9. If you don't manage to kill most of your party with this, then you've done something wrong. What exactly did you want from us again?
100,000 Monster Manual human skeletons is a bit more than a CR 16 encounter. Any Warlock with Fell Flight could destroy them all quite easily.
Sergikins
11-12-06, 07:40 PM did anyone catch that they would only be ther for 7 rounds?
andrewburk
11-12-06, 08:51 PM Just thought I'd point this out, but 60 skellies, is an EL 9. If you don't manage to kill most of your party with this, then you've done something wrong. What exactly did you want from us again?

sorry im new to the DM'ing of D&D

anyways, exactly what i asked for in my first post, that when you have this high level characters against skellies, with these stats i mentioned, that when you do roll by roll, that one guy could defeat all these skellies, based on what i knew in the PHB.

now some good samaritians have posted, saying i could use aid an allie, which might not work that well, but there was also the mob rules, which was exactly what i was looking for!, i just need to go and find out the real mechanics to it!

so i say thanks to all for your help!
RahHax
11-12-06, 11:50 PM If you can sunder his full plate, all the better because then though you can't physically hurt him, you cripple his coinpurse and you also deny him 8 AC right there.

Can't sunder armour that's being worn.

I don't think this s an issue about how many of the skeletons they can take down, but more an issue about how many skeletons will be able to attack the party at once.

If there is anywhere that the PC's can form a bottleneck then the skeleton's quite simply can't touch them in 7 rounds.

Grppeing might sound like a nice idea, but as soon as a bunch of skeletons grapple the fighter the cleric can turn them and they are destroyed, and you have no good way of keeping the cleric away from the square next to the fighter.

If you have acess to the minitures handbook though I would recomend the skeletons having a warchief with them, it would probably make the encounter about EL12 as you woud have a CR 7 skeleton warchief. The interesting thing would be though, after 7 rounds it's not tha the skeletons unsummon, they crumble from the influence of the warchief. at which point the warchief runs unsummons, and a simmilar thing happens every day.

This would give every skeleton a +4 attack bonus with each claw dealing D4+4 damage per attack, but the main problem against the skeletons is that they can't get enough attacks against the PC's at once to do enough damage.

Still the only thing that ballences out the high CR is that the combat cannot last very long. i'm not sure if this helps
Vaelan
11-13-06, 01:47 AM I don't think this s an issue about how many of the skeletons they can take down, but more an issue about how many skeletons will be able to attack the party at once.
Exactly.

...but there was also the mob rules, which was exactly what i was looking for!
I think the normal rules are much better for what you are trying. It is an interesting puzzle and the mob rules would reduce it to mere combat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
andrewburk 11-12-06, 08:51 AM	alrighty, ive got my group of 4th level power gamers in a dungeoun, thats cursed, every day at the same time, in the main room, about 60 or so skeletons appear and stay for about 7 rounds and then dissappear, and repeat, day after day until the curse is broken. i was totally not thinking ahead, aside from one of the players having a cleric (well she wasnt there for the first encounter) i have a player whos character is a tank, decent dex, saved up for full plate, shield, dodge, mobility, works out that his AC sits around 23-25 when holding his ground. and then 2 other characters that sit slightly lower then that in terms of high AC and high damage dealing. Then comes the rogue and cleric. I dont want to punish them for creating characters like this, they are new. so i was wondering what kind of tactics should i use, to at least make the fight risky, when in the first encounter they kinda proved they had a nice chance of killing them all! round by round.. 1st) they could be anywhere in the room, slighty separated, looking at different things, then the wind picks up, some hard to decipher whispering in the air, chills down the spine, and then all light even magical gets snuffed out for a round. 2nd) next the darkness gives way to the light in a weird like wave, it receeds revealing, that the characters are surrounded by hordes of skeletons, all looking like they mean business. 3rd)the skeletons all move towards the characters to surround and flank them, and start attacking. 4th) and this is where is goes sour. the tank can stand there and take it, at 23-25 AC, even mass flanking skeletons cant hit him on anything less then a nat20 roll. combo'ed with the powerattack,cleave, hes smashing 2 a turn without a sweat. plus if he wants to run away, hes got +4 AC for Attacks of Opportunity, when running away! which is fine by me, its running away! now, does anybody have any ideas where i could actually make the combat a little more dangerous, am i missing some odd rule, or a tactic that someone likes to use... i would preferably like not to raise the stats of the skeletons, then i would have to raise the CR and exp, but i will if thats my last option, just to make it a touch harder for them! thanks in advance
CharlieRock 11-12-06, 08:53 AM	Grapplin' Skellys? Seriously, with that many they could just surround and dog-pile them. :plotting: P.S. Arm the skellys with scimitars, or axes. Then after one or two grapples the characters the rest can just pound away. Even if they hit one of their own, its likely not going to hurt.
LCD2YOU 11-12-06, 08:58 AM	Ever see the movie "Stargate"? Remember at the end when the two glider pilots were surrounded by a bunch of slaves and the slaves just kept on coming? Even a powerful character can get drsgged down and taken out when their are enough beings who don't care about their well being. I think Zombies would work better and they have more weight behind them but skeletons would work just as well.
andrewburk 11-12-06, 09:45 AM	Grapplin' Skellys? Seriously, with that many they could just surround and dog-pile them. :plotting: P.S. Arm the skellys with scimitars, or axes. Then after one or two grapples the characters the rest can just pound away. Even if they hit one of their own, its likely not going to hurt. sounds like a good idea, and i was reading the grappling rules, but a standard skeleton, doesnt have much of a chance to win a grapple against a 4th level fighter with 18 strength!, and the grapple rules dont really take about combining more then one skeleton, to start a dogpile, well ive only got the players guide3.5, is there rules for this, or how would you rule it to be fair..? thanks
Radijs 11-12-06, 09:46 AM	I think that indeed grappling and/or tripping is the best thing you can do in this case. The fighter gets 1 AOO each round, I dont think he has combat reflexes? Once he's caught he already loses dex to AC, the next time he gets pinned is another -4 and if they get him flat on his back thats another -4 You'll knock his AC to somewhere around 12-15. An easy hit for a skellie. And since there are so many of em...
Aegeu 11-12-06, 09:55 AM	Aid another to simulate dogpiling. 8 skeletons = +14 to one skeleton's attack.
orionm42 11-12-06, 09:55 AM	If these are human warrior skeletons with a 1/3CR, they are just not appropriate for a group of 4th level power gamers. My advice is to mix up the type of undead that magically "appear" in the room. Try to use some incorporeal creatures that can get through the tank's AC...hit 'em with a couple of Allips, for example. Edit: You can still have a group of skeletons appear...just have them be led by a nastier undead beastie.
CharlieRock 11-12-06, 09:56 AM	sounds like a good idea, and i was reading the grappling rules, but a standard skeleton, doesnt have much of a chance to win a grapple against a 4th level fighter with 18 strength!, and the grapple rules dont really take about combining more then one skeleton, to start a dogpile, well ive only got the players guide3.5, is there rules for this, or how would you rule it to be fair..? thanks They have only a +1 grapple, true. But, then again they are (human type) only CR1/3. Perhaps if some were armed with nets? Or flails? Nets are in the DMG (?) ... not sure. I know they are in the core rules, because I just saw them ... ;)
orionm42 11-12-06, 10:04 AM	Aid another to simulate dogpiling. 8 skeletons = +14 to one skeleton's attack. Not bad! :) I guess the only problem is you still only get the damage from one skeleton per round. At a measly 1d6+1, the tank is still likely to survive.
orionm42 11-12-06, 10:12 AM	Along the lines of the dog piling suggestion...what are the rules for mobs (I think this is in the DMG2)? Don't mobs attack as a single creature which fights more effectively than its component creatures? If this is the case, perhaps you could turn a bunch of lower level skeletons into a more formidable opponent.
CharlieRock 11-12-06, 10:17 AM	PHB pg.119 = Nets :D
orionm42 11-12-06, 10:20 AM	Oooooooo!:D Just checked out the mob (page 59 of DMG2). +15BAB with 5d6 damage per round!! Problem is it is a CR8 as written! :weep: You might want to modify it slightly to reduce the CR, while still keeping some of the same conceptual features.
byakuganbrawler 11-12-06, 10:21 AM	I have the statistics for a skeleton known as a bane guard Bane guard 4d12hp claws +2melee l sword 1d8 + 2 magic missle 2 missles every 3 rounds blink/10min. ac 15 or 16 its in lost empires of faruen
byakuganbrawler 11-12-06, 10:25 AM	have a necromancer or something to augment them with spells
GhostOfJacK 11-12-06, 10:33 AM	Sunder. I don't know how easily they can even hit, but if they can, fourteen later, he has no shield, or fullpate or whatnot. Denying him his Dex bonus won't do much because that (Ifyou are playing with normal full plate rules) is only 1 Dex taken off. OooooOOo. If you can sunder his full plate, all the better because then though you can't physically hurt him, you cripple his coinpurse and you also deny him 8 AC right there. Archers. Equip some of them with bows perhaps. So what if they fire into the crowd. It won't do much the a regular 3.5 Skeleton and could eat away at especially the back row people (Rogue and cleric?). Bigger threat. Have one time, after the battle, the room make the skeltons disappear, then turn black and then red for a second. Something spectacular and then you have a reaon to throw bigger enemies at them like even a dracolich (bone dragon?) or the such. If you want to be paticularily evil, throw the big baddie at them right after the battle, so they have two battles. Advancement. Advance your skeleton so they are a few CRs higher. Also give them character classes so you have a 2 Ftr Human Skeleton, and deal that way. You can also equip your skeltons. Give them full plate themselves and see how easy it is to hit them then. For visualistic fun, full plate and mauls (complete warrior) will be good to go.
andrewburk 11-12-06, 10:35 AM	Oooooooo!:D Just checked out the mob (page 59 of DMG2). +15BAB with 5d6 damage per round!! Problem is it is a CR8 as written! :weep: You might want to modify it slightly to reduce the CR, while still keeping some of the same conceptual features. thats exactly what im looking for! Mob rules!!!! literally! thanks, except i dont know what BAB means! or the exact rules for mob, i dont have that book. i might keep it as a CR8 cause its suppose to be hard, amoungst the 60 or so appearing skeletons, is one wearing the last amulet, to help break the curse, first they have to spot it, then have to figure out how to get it from it without dying, so it might take multiple nights of attempting. Im a tough DM, but once they demonstrated some sort of plan, i would eventually allow them to win, with some struggle. i have 2players who are in the army reserves taking all kinds of tactics courses, so this is easy for them to set up plans out of game! thanks
orionm42 11-12-06, 10:40 AM	thats exactly what im looking for! Mob rules!!!! literally! thanks, except i dont know what BAB means! or the exact rules for mob, i dont have that book. Thanks. BAB= Base attack bonus. No problem! I'd love to post the rules for you, but I don't think the material is OGL (open gaming license). As such, it would be a code of conduct violation for me to publish the rules here. Sorry about that.
Radijs 11-12-06, 11:33 AM	You can also just give the skeletons a few more hit dice. Then they will quickly become more dangerous.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 11-12-06, 06:29 PM	Just thought I'd point this out, but 60 skellies, is an EL 9. If you don't manage to kill most of your party with this, then you've done something wrong. What exactly did you want from us again?
pyropetey9 11-12-06, 06:45 PM	Just thought I'd point this out, but 60 skellies, is an EL 9. If you don't manage to kill most of your party with this, then you've done something wrong. What exactly did you want from us again? Your math is sound, but there's a principle of economics called the Law of Diminishing Returns, and it applies here as well. As mentioned briefly in the DMG, increasing the number of a given type of monster only makes the encounter more difficult up to a certain point. It's hard to say exactly when adding more enemies stops posing a problem for the party, but I'd guess that it's somewhere around this point. For the OP, I recommend using the rules for the mob. It makes better sense, and it limits the numbers you'll be crunching when it comes time to roll initiative.
Vaelan 11-12-06, 07:30 PM	Just thought I'd point this out, but 60 skellies, is an EL 9. If you don't manage to kill most of your party with this, then you've done something wrong. What exactly did you want from us again? 100,000 Monster Manual human skeletons is a bit more than a CR 16 encounter. Any Warlock with Fell Flight could destroy them all quite easily.
Sergikins 11-12-06, 07:40 PM	did anyone catch that they would only be ther for 7 rounds?
andrewburk 11-12-06, 08:51 PM	Just thought I'd point this out, but 60 skellies, is an EL 9. If you don't manage to kill most of your party with this, then you've done something wrong. What exactly did you want from us again? sorry im new to the DM'ing of D&D anyways, exactly what i asked for in my first post, that when you have this high level characters against skellies, with these stats i mentioned, that when you do roll by roll, that one guy could defeat all these skellies, based on what i knew in the PHB. now some good samaritians have posted, saying i could use aid an allie, which might not work that well, but there was also the mob rules, which was exactly what i was looking for!, i just need to go and find out the real mechanics to it! so i say thanks to all for your help!
RahHax 11-12-06, 11:50 PM	If you can sunder his full plate, all the better because then though you can't physically hurt him, you cripple his coinpurse and you also deny him 8 AC right there. Can't sunder armour that's being worn. I don't think this s an issue about how many of the skeletons they can take down, but more an issue about how many skeletons will be able to attack the party at once. If there is anywhere that the PC's can form a bottleneck then the skeleton's quite simply can't touch them in 7 rounds. Grppeing might sound like a nice idea, but as soon as a bunch of skeletons grapple the fighter the cleric can turn them and they are destroyed, and you have no good way of keeping the cleric away from the square next to the fighter. If you have acess to the minitures handbook though I would recomend the skeletons having a warchief with them, it would probably make the encounter about EL12 as you woud have a CR 7 skeleton warchief. The interesting thing would be though, after 7 rounds it's not tha the skeletons unsummon, they crumble from the influence of the warchief. at which point the warchief runs unsummons, and a simmilar thing happens every day. This would give every skeleton a +4 attack bonus with each claw dealing D4+4 damage per attack, but the main problem against the skeletons is that they can't get enough attacks against the PC's at once to do enough damage. Still the only thing that ballences out the high CR is that the combat cannot last very long. i'm not sure if this helps
Vaelan 11-13-06, 01:47 AM	I don't think this s an issue about how many of the skeletons they can take down, but more an issue about how many skeletons will be able to attack the party at once. Exactly. ...but there was also the mob rules, which was exactly what i was looking for! I think the normal rules are much better for what you are trying. It is an interesting puzzle and the mob rules would reduce it to mere combat.