Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PenderGrass 01-06-04, 03:00 PM	One thing I have never figured was done properly and I plan on changing is the progression of Skill Ranks. First, I think that a skill someone may have learned 3 years prior and has been training hard (i.e., spending Skill Points) with should be given advantages vs a skill they may have just picked up last week! It is so simple, the skill progression is all laid out for you and only needs a minor adjustment. Each time a New Skill is purchased it is given a max skill ranks as per a 1st level character (regardless of the ACTUAL character level). Each level beyond that it progresses as per normal - as given in the v3.5PHB (page ~35 I think). Thus, a 15th Rogue that JUST buys into a Class Skill can only max it out to 4 ranks with each additional level adding +1 to the max ranks allowed with that skill. This changes the skill purchasing choices for a 1st level Rogue for sure - but it also wrangles in a little bit of realism. After all, someone that has been working on nothing but History would not all of a sudden be a genius in Calculus - right? Is this too far of a step for you DMs? Have I overstepped my boundaries of DM by changing the PHB so much? What's a DM to do?
greatestDM 01-06-04, 03:20 PM	I like your method and I can understand why you would want to use it. The only problem I have with it is that you can only get a select number of skills at 1st level. If one would want to have a lot of skills be able to reach a high rank level, then that person would have to sell out a point per skill to acheive the max benefit. With the way I play, which is to get a few skills maxed on rank, I would be inable to gain full maxed skills. If you made and option as to maybe having the skill for 3 levels or so lets you use the max rank for your level. Something like this would be reasonable so that your players would be able to eventually gain full ranks on skills that they just didn't need at 1st level.
KShaver 01-06-04, 03:26 PM	Actually thats an interesting idea, but it allows for one to start with a skill at 1 and then at any later point in time skyrocket it as high as possible, while the person who picked up the skill later can study it far more and yet never make that ridiculous jump. Example: Jack the rogue did a little bit of candle jumping in his youth, he starts with one rank in jump at first level. Jill the bard on the other hand was a bit less promiscuous and never jumped anything in her youth, and has 0 ranks in jump at first level. Over the years Jill finds jumping more usefull than climbing up that blasted hill and devotes all her time to jumping. At 6th level Jill starts to buy jump, she focuses her whole body, mind, and soul on jumping, even taking the Order of Jiminy Jumping PRC. Jack was lax during this time though and left his jumping skill at 1. At 15th level he is jealous of Jill's jumping powers and decides to start spending ranks on jump again. By 16th level on your system Jack could have maxed out his formerly pathetic jump skill to a beefy 19 ranks (well he is human so at 8+1 ranks/level*2 + his orignial 1 =19), Jill at 16th on the other hand, despite dutifully devoting far more time, effort, and levels to jumping, has a max jump skill of 14 ranks. My suggestion to it would be to simply limit the number of ranks/level that a character can spend on any single skill, this way concentrated study over a period of time is the best way to raise a skill. I would suggest that if you use such a method that it allow at least 2 ranks/level, otherwise a character has no chance to catch a skill up no matter how hard he studies it. If you are open to larger jumps in skill ranks you might use something like 2 + int mod as the max ranks/level for characters, this allows a little bit faster learning, but still puts some limitations on it.
greatestDM 01-06-04, 03:35 PM	I like that, KShaver. The thought of one waiting and then beefing would be hard to deal with. Another option I may suggest is to have your skills required to be trained. Not just can't use without ranks, I mean pay a trainer gold per rank (50 maybe). Then, yes you can beef up, but it comes with a price that makes it more realistic. You trained to become that strong so you have a right to be that powerful.
olshanski 01-06-04, 04:21 PM	I think that D&D characters are supposed to be sort of heroic. There are always stories of people who might never have done something in their lives (like picked a lock, or studied knowledge of nature), but then one day they get the urge to "Improve themselves" and work on their particular field of study with a passion. In a matter of months they know as much about the subject matter as someone who has pursued it for 20 years. I know of people who were never into cooking or gardening, but they get the urge one year and practice and read, and study, and after a year of work at it, they know as much as some professors... just because they devoted themselves to the area of study. I don't think letting someone suddenly crank up ranks in something is unreasonable... and in some cases, it might be unreasonable NOT to let them max out some ranks in a new skill. Just my 2cents.
Voran 01-06-04, 05:39 PM	Maybe slow it down a little, allowing them to get to max rating within 2 levels instead of all at once? I agree with the post that says its possible that there are people who suddenly focus on something and can become really qualified in something quickly. But it may also help tone down the sudden 15 point skill dump.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 01-06-04, 05:55 PM	Originally posted by KShaver Jill the bard on the other hand was a bit less promiscuous and never jumped anything in her youth, and has 0 ranks in jump at first level.:rofl: My suggestion to it would be to simply limit the number of ranks/level that a character can spend on any single skill, this way concentrated study over a period of time is the best way to raise a skill. I would suggest that if you use such a method that it allow at least 2 ranks/level, otherwise a character has no chance to catch a skill up no matter how hard he studies it. If you are open to larger jumps in skill ranks you might use something like 2 + int mod as the max ranks/level for characters, this allows a little bit faster learning, but still puts some limitations on it. I like this, and I think it is a nice balance between, the stated problem you have with the skill system and olshanski's concern for heroic characters devoting themselves to learning skill quickly. It actually models real life learning much better than the present system. This will most heavily impact Rogues, but not so much as to tie their hands. Oh, wait, I have ranks in escape artist, I can get around this rule.:D
Ilanthe 01-06-04, 06:16 PM	Originally posted by KShaver If you are open to larger jumps in skill ranks you might use something like 2 + int mod as the max ranks/level for characters, this allows a little bit faster learning, but still puts some limitations on it. Sounds good, but using int for all skills might be unbalancing. I'd suggest using the appropriate ability modifier for the skill. After all if the skill you're trying to improve is say balance, your dexterity is more likely to determine how quickly you improve rather than your intelligence.
zodiki 01-06-04, 06:39 PM	Another option is to require a certain amount of extra training (say 1 day - 1 month) for every skill point above 1 added all at once. So if you add 6 points to perform (a difficult skill even for a Bard IMO), you have to spend 5 months training. Having a max rank in every skill that is dependent on when it was taken is a pain bookkeeping wise and it punishes already created characters more than ones that start out at higher levels. It's not a bad idea though if the wrinkles could be ironed out.
PenderGrass 01-06-04, 06:53 PM	I think maybe the compromise might be doable - but it would have to be modified since a 1st level character can buy a 4 ranks in a class skill as it stands and unless they have a minimum of +2 stat bonus they wouldn't be able to do even that! But, maybe you are thinking like this ----? That the first level a PC buys a Class Skill that it can only be a Maximum of 4 Ranks (as per my original thought). Then each level after that he can buy a maximum ranks equal to 1+ applicable stat mod up to the standard max as given in the PHB (I like this as well - the whole applicable stat thing, but note I have reduced the additional bonus to a +1 - sorry, evil DM rules say I have to). Make all this for cross-class and I think I may have my new Skill System - which is far superior to any feeble attempt made by WotC (but sure they will steal it from the boards now).
Dasein 01-06-04, 07:09 PM	Another idea that might work is to charge more skill points for taking, say, more than 2 ranks in a skill at once. For example, 2 ranks would cost you the normal 2 skill points, a third rank would cost 2 more skill points, a fourth would cost 3 points and so on. Dasein
KShaver 01-07-04, 10:19 AM	Originally posted by PenderGrass But, maybe you are thinking like this ----? That the first level a PC buys a Class Skill that it can only be a Maximum of 4 Ranks (as per my original thought). Yes, something like that. You definately want to allow for a character to spend 4 points in any skill at first level (though they might end up with only 2 ranks if cross-class), as that is a players first chance to define who or what the character will be. Then each level after that he can buy a maximum ranks equal to 1+ applicable stat mod up to the standard max as given in the PHB (I like this as well - the whole applicable stat thing, but note I have reduced the additional bonus to a +1 - sorry, evil DM rules say I have to). 1+ could be a bit harsh, but by making it applicable stat mod instead of intelligence you leave it up to the player to determine what they will be able to raise quickly and what will go up very slowly. The harsh part is that if a character does not have a + mod in a stat then any skill related to that stat that they didn't start with at fisrt level and raise every applicable level will always suffer no matter how much they might need the skill, but by the higher levels characters should be able to get a positive modifier anyways in just about any stat they want if they are able to make concientious decisions about their gear. I still like the 2 + int mod idea, as it is a bit softer, allowing a minimum of 2 points/level spent, and it takes into account intelligence which is supposed to help represent how fast a character can learn. Either system looks good though, just as long as players know the ground rules going into the game/campaign.
Gnarl 01-07-04, 10:25 AM	It has heavy consequences on high level rogues. After a certain rank (lets say 10), it's not too usefully increasing it above that rank. If your thinking about making such changes, you should also consider having similar things for fighters, wizos and clerics. After all, a fighter specializing in brute force (power attack and the stuff) that takes dodge or combat expertise is kind of the same as having a rogue sudenly becoming good in sense motive. Similarly, a wizard who casts fireballs all the time would have trouble understanding the concepts of a more subtil spell. Personally, I wouldn't mind bothering with that degree of realism in the game. After all, your wizos do cast spells, you warriors are fighting dragons, your clerics can call their god on the phone and your druids can transform into baboons. Doesn't sound too realistic. And I didn't start talking about all those special class abilities suddenly appearing (yikes, a wizzo with brew potions and 0 ranks in alchemy).
olshanski 01-07-04, 11:03 AM	I think the posts are very good, and I like the idea of things going up fast, but maybe not too fast. Before you say that a skill increases by 1+ability modifier (which I think is better than INT)... keep in mind the following: Burly fighter guy has been a soldier for 5 levels. Suddenly he is promoted to sargent and he finds it one of his duties to intimidate the lower ranks. He's never tried to intimidate people before. He is your average soldier and has a CHA of only 8 (assuming he put 8 in is CHA and is using the elite array). He can now work on Intimidate by adding 1+cha bonus per level... which comes out to... ZERO. This is just to let people know that not everyone has all stats higher than 10, and that the rules suggestions are excellent, but think about all of the ramifications of adding new rules. Maybe you want to say that any skill can be learned at a rate of 4+[relavent ability modifier per level], with a minimum of 4.
PenderGrass 01-07-04, 11:06 AM	1+ could be a bit harsh That is the point of being an Evil DM. EDMR* #1 - Be Harsh, Be Very Harsh. *-Evil DM Rule
KShaver 01-07-04, 11:18 AM	Originally posted by olshanski He can now work on Intimidate by adding 1+cha bonus per level... which comes out to... ZERO. I assumed he was going to use a minimum of 1, but he didn't specify so this may not be the case. I strongly suggest that there is a minimum gain available regardless of how one decides to rework the skill system.
PenderGrass 01-07-04, 11:26 AM	He can now work on Intimidate by adding 1+cha bonus per level... which comes out to... ZERO. This would be why I would have a minimum of +1 per level (regardless of bonuses and so forth - remember cross-class skills would be somewhat different as well).
The Master Weaver Is Warped 01-07-04, 12:46 PM	Or, how about 1+ Relevant stat bonus or INT bonus which ever is higher. The first would reflect the learning of someone who has a natural talent for that skill, and the second would reflect those who learn a skill from pure tenasity and will to learn. What are you proposing for cross class skills? I'm thinking of dropping the whole concept of cross class skills entirely. I will be running a city campaign, so if they want to learn something, there will be somebody around to teach it to them. I'd like the players to have more charature development options not less. Like a paronoid wizard that has an awesome spot, but doesn't give a tiddily wink about spell craft. "I don't care what they are casting. As long as I see them first it doesn't bloody matter, does it?"
Millennium 01-07-04, 01:58 PM	Keeping track of the levels at which the skill was picked up would be a major headache; I'd keep that in mind when deciding to implement this. But go ahead and do this if you want, by all means. I've seen DMs rip out the entire battle system and replace it with a homebrew system in its place.
The Master Weaver Is Warped 01-07-04, 02:17 PM	Originally posted by Millennium Keeping track of the levels at which the skill was picked up would be a major headache; I'd keep that in mind when deciding to implement this. No, I think all you have to do is take a highlighter to your character sheet, illuminating the skills taken at first level. All other skills would be subject to the increase limitations.