A DM's problem: Internal group strife (long) [Archive] - Wizards Community

A DM's problem: Internal group strife (long) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Wullenwever
09-21-03, 03:45 PM Well, greetings all.

I've got a serious problem in which I need advice..

The situation is this:

Our group has been playing for many years w/out many changes. Apart from one male player and one female player that made their way into the group, there were always the same guys around.

As many of you might now, when you grow older, time for playing becomes a rare treasure, as everybody has his own everyday duties.

During the last years, one of the players that was there from the beginning has grown more and more frustrated with nearly everything. He nearly always complains about, well, almost everything. Furthermore, he is one of those persons who have extreme difficulties in voicing their thoughts.

For the game, this means that he carries over his generally bad mood and lack of both outward interest and enthusiasm into the game and his character.
Additionally, I, and the other newer player, have come to the impression that he holds a personal grudge against the female player, as he continuously ignores her input, whether it is good or not.

This has gone so far, that, after having tried to solve the problem in game, the female player is having less and less fun, up to the point that after yesterdays sessions she announced to possibly leave the group. She stated that she couldn't stand being ignored anymore, which obviously is understandable. She wasn't angry at me (which is good, 'cause she's my fiancee) or the group at all, she just stated she wasn't having fun anymore.

What makes things worse is that she really digs roleplaying. She only played three or fourtimes before joining this group and thus was rather unexperienced, but she started to evolve by losing bad gaming habits (being angry at the DM for getting hit, jumping recklessly into battle and the like, she even tried to play in a way that this other player might see she is trying) and improving her roleplaying skills.

I ask myself now what to do. It's clear that something has to happen. I only see 3 ways to go: They talk and get things right, she leaves, or he leaves.

Should I accept her offer of leaving the group in favor of the other player (I wouldn't be quitting RPGs alltogether, she plays in another group which she is enjoying)?
Or shall I ask the other player to think about his behaviour and decide to leave or adapt?

Should I lose the female player, who brings more into the game by having ideas, improving her roleplay, understanding the rules and how to use them? (I'm rather sure, that she would be even more involved into the game if the other player wasn't around opposing her)

Or should I lose the male player, who hasn't really done anything more for the game than walking along with the others, who after 2 years doesn't know how to make an attack roll and not even tells his mind when openly asked for it (3 months ago, I asked all players to answer about 20 questions about the game - also to allow him to voice his opinion in private - and I haven't got an answer yet...just to show what I mean)?

Man, that was alot of typing, I hope the situation is presented clearly and understandable. Feel free to ask if anything is unclear.

Thanx for any help, it is really appreciated (and excuse any bad english).
Stafir Ortnev
09-21-03, 04:01 PM Is this post a joke? :uh-huh:

The answer is obvious...very obvious...drop the player who isn't even trying to get involved..and who's only contribution is to provide another body to take hits/do dmg...other people can fulfill that role.

Keep the player who is actually trying to learn..trying to have fun, and actually adding to the experience.
Dash Branaghan
09-21-03, 05:15 PM I'm curious as to whether or not the male was always like this. Did he ever bring in any aspect to the game other than fodder? Was the female your fiancee before she started gaming? Does he feel like you're playing favorites with your fiancee, which is always possible, and thus resent her, and to a degree you, which is why he is disrupting/not contributing to the game?

There is more to this story than you have included here. I think you need to find out what his problem is, what spawned it, whether or not it can be rectified, and then decide. However, since it is you fiancee, I would talk to some of the other long timers and see if they can spot the same problems. If they can, then talk to him as a group, so that you can't be accused of playing favorites: your impartiality will be unquestioned.

From that point, determine whether or not you can keep them together, whether you should let the fiancee go to the other game, or whether or not you let the long timer go. As Stafir pointed out, it is kind of a no brainer to let the guy go if he isn't contributing anything more than a bad set of mood swings, but there has to be a source for those, and maybe with some support from his friends, he can overcome it.

Just my thoughts.
MinusInnocence
09-21-03, 05:59 PM Dash is right. Explore some of the reasons he feels fed up with the game... why isn't he having fun? You say he has a difficult time speaking up for himself, have you tried bluntly asking him about it?

If he won't bite and refuses to cooperate in any sort of group therapy or the like, then you have no choice but to cut him loose. It is a sad state of affairs when a newer player is the one who is actually being more mature than the other. He should be ashamed of himself for letting her make the first offer to leave the group. It may seem like a bit of Solomonesque justice but I feel it suits the situation: the person who offers to leave for the sake of the group, first, is actually the one worth keeping.

If I were the DM I wouldn't even think twice about this... I've had far too many bad experiences with letting pisspoor attitudes fester to the boiling point. You have an obligation to the group to keep the game afloat, and sometimes that means cutting away the infected tissue so the rest of the body can flourish again.

If his behavior is as negative as you claim, then he's already made your decision for you. Good luck.
BigBadButch
09-21-03, 07:48 PM If you're lucky enough to have a good regular group, never drop anyone (or, if possible, allow someone to leave) without at least talking to everyone concerned first.

So, I think you need to talk to the guy who's caused the problems. Don't go wading in with 'hey, you've messed everything up', but instead grab a beer with the guy and ask him how he's doing. Tell him you've noticed he doesn't seem to be having much fun recently, ask him if there's anything you can do to help. Likewise, let him know that you've noticed there seems to be some problem between him and the female member of the group, and ask him about it.

Similarly, speak to the female member, get her point of view, find out if her reasons for leaving lie solely with the grumpy guy, or if there's more to it. Ask her if she'd be willing to try talking to the other guy and seeing if the two of them can sort out their problem in an amicable way.

Finally, it might be worth having a chat with the other members of the group, either individually or together (you know these people, so you'll know which would be best) and get their take on the situation. While you're at it, you can ask them how they're finding the gaming at the moment, if they have any suggestions or ideas, and find out if there's anything you can be doing to make sure they're having a good time as well.

Hopefully, if you talk to everyone and they all behave as fairly rational adults, you should be able to sort out any problems and keep what sounds like a nice group together and having fun with their gaming... Good luck :D
The Axeman
09-21-03, 11:32 PM It sounds like there is some history between the do-nothing guy and the female player. Perhaps you should inquire as to why he is angry with her. Perhaps you don't want to find out as it may be out of game stuff. But if all else fails drop the male, he is worthless.
Wullenwever
09-22-03, 01:04 PM Thank you all for trying to aid.

It really seems to be obvious but I don't want to act without giving the problem players a chance (although it would be the male's part, 'cause my fiancee tried to adjust her play so that he might see her good will to get things right)

Some of your advice I have already tried, I talked to some of the players (one older, and the other recent group addition) and they themselves saw problems, but both are neutral on who should leave in case it becomes necessary.

And by the time I'm quite sure that it is something out of the game, at least to some part, that makes the male play the way he does.

Again thanx, I will try what I can with what you gave me...

If anyone is interested, I will keep you informed or might ask again for further advice.
PenderGrass
09-22-03, 01:27 PM Dash is right.

Why - oh why???

Danggitt Dash you are ALWAS right.

Damn your infernal right-ness.
Farland
09-22-03, 03:26 PM Are you sure that the "problem player" doesn't perceive you as favoring your fiancee? Have you examined your own behavior?

I am not attacking you. I'm just asking is all. ;)
Raist27m
09-22-03, 03:53 PM Talk to the grumpy guy, and ask him what is really getting at him. It sounds to me like he's jealous of your fiancee, and feels she's getting special attention from you. If he points out specific instances, then take them to heart, and improve the game. Talk it out with him.

If it comes down to him or her though, I'd go with her. The rest of the group gets along with her, and he's the odd man out. He can find another group, or treat everyone at the table with respect.
Dash Branaghan
09-22-03, 06:09 PM Originally posted by PenderGrass
Why - oh why???

Danggitt Dash you are ALWAS right.

Damn your infernal right-ness.

*feels shame* I went out of my way to be wrong Pender...honest. I really really tried this time. *sob* :tantrum:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wullenwever 09-21-03, 03:45 PM	Well, greetings all. I've got a serious problem in which I need advice.. The situation is this: Our group has been playing for many years w/out many changes. Apart from one male player and one female player that made their way into the group, there were always the same guys around. As many of you might now, when you grow older, time for playing becomes a rare treasure, as everybody has his own everyday duties. During the last years, one of the players that was there from the beginning has grown more and more frustrated with nearly everything. He nearly always complains about, well, almost everything. Furthermore, he is one of those persons who have extreme difficulties in voicing their thoughts. For the game, this means that he carries over his generally bad mood and lack of both outward interest and enthusiasm into the game and his character. Additionally, I, and the other newer player, have come to the impression that he holds a personal grudge against the female player, as he continuously ignores her input, whether it is good or not. This has gone so far, that, after having tried to solve the problem in game, the female player is having less and less fun, up to the point that after yesterdays sessions she announced to possibly leave the group. She stated that she couldn't stand being ignored anymore, which obviously is understandable. She wasn't angry at me (which is good, 'cause she's my fiancee) or the group at all, she just stated she wasn't having fun anymore. What makes things worse is that she really digs roleplaying. She only played three or fourtimes before joining this group and thus was rather unexperienced, but she started to evolve by losing bad gaming habits (being angry at the DM for getting hit, jumping recklessly into battle and the like, she even tried to play in a way that this other player might see she is trying) and improving her roleplaying skills. I ask myself now what to do. It's clear that something has to happen. I only see 3 ways to go: They talk and get things right, she leaves, or he leaves. Should I accept her offer of leaving the group in favor of the other player (I wouldn't be quitting RPGs alltogether, she plays in another group which she is enjoying)? Or shall I ask the other player to think about his behaviour and decide to leave or adapt? Should I lose the female player, who brings more into the game by having ideas, improving her roleplay, understanding the rules and how to use them? (I'm rather sure, that she would be even more involved into the game if the other player wasn't around opposing her) Or should I lose the male player, who hasn't really done anything more for the game than walking along with the others, who after 2 years doesn't know how to make an attack roll and not even tells his mind when openly asked for it (3 months ago, I asked all players to answer about 20 questions about the game - also to allow him to voice his opinion in private - and I haven't got an answer yet...just to show what I mean)? Man, that was alot of typing, I hope the situation is presented clearly and understandable. Feel free to ask if anything is unclear. Thanx for any help, it is really appreciated (and excuse any bad english).
Stafir Ortnev 09-21-03, 04:01 PM	Is this post a joke? :uh-huh: The answer is obvious...very obvious...drop the player who isn't even trying to get involved..and who's only contribution is to provide another body to take hits/do dmg...other people can fulfill that role. Keep the player who is actually trying to learn..trying to have fun, and actually adding to the experience.
Dash Branaghan 09-21-03, 05:15 PM	I'm curious as to whether or not the male was always like this. Did he ever bring in any aspect to the game other than fodder? Was the female your fiancee before she started gaming? Does he feel like you're playing favorites with your fiancee, which is always possible, and thus resent her, and to a degree you, which is why he is disrupting/not contributing to the game? There is more to this story than you have included here. I think you need to find out what his problem is, what spawned it, whether or not it can be rectified, and then decide. However, since it is you fiancee, I would talk to some of the other long timers and see if they can spot the same problems. If they can, then talk to him as a group, so that you can't be accused of playing favorites: your impartiality will be unquestioned. From that point, determine whether or not you can keep them together, whether you should let the fiancee go to the other game, or whether or not you let the long timer go. As Stafir pointed out, it is kind of a no brainer to let the guy go if he isn't contributing anything more than a bad set of mood swings, but there has to be a source for those, and maybe with some support from his friends, he can overcome it. Just my thoughts.
MinusInnocence 09-21-03, 05:59 PM	Dash is right. Explore some of the reasons he feels fed up with the game... why isn't he having fun? You say he has a difficult time speaking up for himself, have you tried bluntly asking him about it? If he won't bite and refuses to cooperate in any sort of group therapy or the like, then you have no choice but to cut him loose. It is a sad state of affairs when a newer player is the one who is actually being more mature than the other. He should be ashamed of himself for letting her make the first offer to leave the group. It may seem like a bit of Solomonesque justice but I feel it suits the situation: the person who offers to leave for the sake of the group, first, is actually the one worth keeping. If I were the DM I wouldn't even think twice about this... I've had far too many bad experiences with letting pisspoor attitudes fester to the boiling point. You have an obligation to the group to keep the game afloat, and sometimes that means cutting away the infected tissue so the rest of the body can flourish again. If his behavior is as negative as you claim, then he's already made your decision for you. Good luck.
BigBadButch 09-21-03, 07:48 PM	If you're lucky enough to have a good regular group, never drop anyone (or, if possible, allow someone to leave) without at least talking to everyone concerned first. So, I think you need to talk to the guy who's caused the problems. Don't go wading in with 'hey, you've messed everything up', but instead grab a beer with the guy and ask him how he's doing. Tell him you've noticed he doesn't seem to be having much fun recently, ask him if there's anything you can do to help. Likewise, let him know that you've noticed there seems to be some problem between him and the female member of the group, and ask him about it. Similarly, speak to the female member, get her point of view, find out if her reasons for leaving lie solely with the grumpy guy, or if there's more to it. Ask her if she'd be willing to try talking to the other guy and seeing if the two of them can sort out their problem in an amicable way. Finally, it might be worth having a chat with the other members of the group, either individually or together (you know these people, so you'll know which would be best) and get their take on the situation. While you're at it, you can ask them how they're finding the gaming at the moment, if they have any suggestions or ideas, and find out if there's anything you can be doing to make sure they're having a good time as well. Hopefully, if you talk to everyone and they all behave as fairly rational adults, you should be able to sort out any problems and keep what sounds like a nice group together and having fun with their gaming... Good luck :D
The Axeman 09-21-03, 11:32 PM	It sounds like there is some history between the do-nothing guy and the female player. Perhaps you should inquire as to why he is angry with her. Perhaps you don't want to find out as it may be out of game stuff. But if all else fails drop the male, he is worthless.
Wullenwever 09-22-03, 01:04 PM	Thank you all for trying to aid. It really seems to be obvious but I don't want to act without giving the problem players a chance (although it would be the male's part, 'cause my fiancee tried to adjust her play so that he might see her good will to get things right) Some of your advice I have already tried, I talked to some of the players (one older, and the other recent group addition) and they themselves saw problems, but both are neutral on who should leave in case it becomes necessary. And by the time I'm quite sure that it is something out of the game, at least to some part, that makes the male play the way he does. Again thanx, I will try what I can with what you gave me... If anyone is interested, I will keep you informed or might ask again for further advice.
PenderGrass 09-22-03, 01:27 PM	Dash is right. Why - oh why??? Danggitt Dash you are ALWAS right. Damn your infernal right-ness.
Farland 09-22-03, 03:26 PM	Are you sure that the "problem player" doesn't perceive you as favoring your fiancee? Have you examined your own behavior? I am not attacking you. I'm just asking is all. ;)
Raist27m 09-22-03, 03:53 PM	Talk to the grumpy guy, and ask him what is really getting at him. It sounds to me like he's jealous of your fiancee, and feels she's getting special attention from you. If he points out specific instances, then take them to heart, and improve the game. Talk it out with him. If it comes down to him or her though, I'd go with her. The rest of the group gets along with her, and he's the odd man out. He can find another group, or treat everyone at the table with respect.
Dash Branaghan 09-22-03, 06:09 PM	Originally posted by PenderGrass Why - oh why??? Danggitt Dash you are ALWAS right. Damn your infernal right-ness. feels shame I went out of my way to be wrong Pender...honest. I really really tried this time. sob :tantrum: