Post/Author/DateTime	Post
penchant 12-03-04, 02:14 AM	I have a problem. I created a door the party thief could not simply roll a die to get past. I made the party figure it out. Trouble is, they couldn't. I'm not one just to give them a gimme, so they had to turn back. They had access to lots of tools and could even go out of the dungeon to get more help, but they were just stumped. Here's the deal. I will describe the door and see if you guys can figure out the way in. I know this might do better in another forum, but I need DM's opinions. The door is circular and 12' in Diameter. It is made of a very hard metal and has no seams. There is a visible hinge on the bottom and it appears that it opens outward and recesses into the floor. There are eight 3' bars radiating out from the center, though they don't meet in the middle, dividing the door into eight pie slices. In between each bar is a gear (total 8) that does not seem to move. The walls around it are granite and smooth to the touch. There are pits and tool marks but no other features. Maybe I was too esoteric. Thanks! I will post in a while with the answer, but see if you have a few guesses.
Lord Sinep 12-03-04, 02:50 AM	> No one else guessed, i'll give it a go. First i'd check the floor to see if there's any kinda of indent marks to give clues. You said the gears don't move so then i'd try moving the bars. At that point maybe i'd know if the whole door spun in a circle like a combination lock. Those would be my first tries.
Telperion 12-03-04, 03:16 AM	Well, first of all I would cast Detect Magic, and if that turns up empty then I would check my spell reservoir. There is a 4th level druid spell called Rusting Grasp, which can put a big enough hole in the metal door for any medium creature to comfortably step through. The trick is that if the door is magically reinforced or created then the Rusting Grasp spell has no effect on it. Anyway, the door looks special enough that I would probably just throw one Dispel Magic spell on it, which suppresses any and all magical properties the door might or might not have, and just cast Rusting Grasp after verifying that the door, indeed, is not magical in nature (at least not while the Dispel Magic is in effect). EDIT: I'm assuming that the metal door is no more than 3 feet thick, since if this is not the case the Rusting Grasp spell is not enough to penetrate it. However, I would also like to point out that "very hard metal" is usually also very heavy, which means that the door can't be very thick, or those metal bars that seem to be holding the door up and moving it around would bend and break like twigs.
penchant 12-03-04, 03:17 AM	Good thought, but no. The bars and door are entirely stationary. Some of the bars have carbon scoring upon closer inspection.
ermedic 12-03-04, 03:23 AM	I know this isn't the anwer you're looking for but my response would be simple. F:censored: k the door, let's make our own. Spells like passwall and stone shape would fit the bill quite nicely.
Telperion 12-03-04, 03:26 AM	I know this isn't the anwer you're looking for but my response would be simple. F:censored: k the door, let's make our own. Spells like passwall and stone shape would fit the bill quite nicely. I thought of that too, but personally I have always though that making doors of your own is a risky business at best. Unless of course you have exact knowledge of what lies on the other side of the wall.
Telperion 12-03-04, 03:32 AM	Good thought, but no. The bars and door are entirely stationary. Some of the bars have carbon scoring upon closer inspection. BTW: I'm not saying that roleplaying the whole "trying to open the door with your wits" isn't a good idea, but if the party is really stumped for ideas they are going to be looking at the spell casters and hoping they can do something. Along the same line of thinking: is your door immune to the 2nd level arcane spell called Knock?
Ramses III 12-03-04, 03:37 AM	Sounds like an airlock. There's usually a good reason for one of those -- hence if I couldn't take the door out with brute force or magic, I would leave it the hell alone until I figured I could handle what was on the other side of it. Mind if I had disintigrate, I would just use that.
penchant 12-03-04, 03:51 AM	OK, all good thoughts guys. Yes the door is not rustable as I have more advanced alloys in my game and it actually is a couple feet thick. The bars aren' supporting the door, but are the key to opening it. The answer is that they conduct heat. The locking bars that keep the door in place are inside the door but attached to the bars. by heating the right ones and cooling the others, the shrinkage/ expansion of the metal allows the door to open. Passwall might have worked on the granite wall to the side but I'd have to see how far it could go as they were pretty thick. Incidentally, the room was built to contain a raged ubergolem that had been built from the remains of several destroyed stone and iron golems. Four arms, six legs... maybe it's best they gave up anyway :D So... was that too unreasonable? Am I good clever for my own good? What should I have done otherwise seeing the expressions on my players' faces, "DUH... Kan I kil stuf now?"
Enaloindir 12-03-04, 03:55 AM	Perhaps some etchings of flames and snowflakes around the appropriate bars would have been a nice clue. Thinking of conductivity is rather hard imo ;) Enaloindir P.S. Judging by the golem description, it was better for the player to pass up on this one :D
Ramses III 12-03-04, 04:07 AM	I would never have figured that out. I think it's a stretch to ask of your players -- especially when I used a similar device, and my players took a while to even figure out how to open the door using the four very obvious wheels on it. They kept breaking down into theoretical discussions of what might be the significance of the different numbers of spokes on the wheels -- all the while the air was being sucked out of the room. They did manage to get out of that one in the nick though.
Telperion 12-03-04, 04:08 AM	OK, all good thoughts guys. Yes the door is not rustable as I have more advanced alloys in my game and it actually is a couple feet thick. The bars aren' supporting the door, but are the key to opening it. Fair enough :). Special materials, and all that. Of course one could argue that the spell doesn't really care what "advanced alloys" you are using, since the spell eats metal and metal is metal in D&D. The answer is that they conduct heat. The locking bars that keep the door in place are inside the door but attached to the bars. by heating the right ones and cooling the others, the shrinkage/ expansion of the metal allows the door to open. There was a thread about having real-life physics in D&D on ENworld some time ago. You might want to check that out. Anyway, without any obvious clues this door would have been too tough a challenge to open. Passwall might have worked on the granite wall to the side but I'd have to see how far it could go as they were pretty thick. Passwall is a fairly powerful spell, since it can pass through (oops, my mistake. The actual formula is 10 feet + 5 feet / 3 levels above 9th level) 10 feet + 5 feet / 3 caster levels of wood, plaster or stone. So, it really depends on the level of party. Keep in mind that most stone walls aren't terribly thick, unless they have been carved out of natural surroundings, or something like that. Incidentally, the room was built to contain a raged ubergolem that had been built from the remains of several destroyed stone and iron golems. Four arms, six legs... maybe it's best they gave up anyway :D Okay, assuming that the party is above 10th level they should have had all the spells they need to handle a simple door. No matter how mechanical or mysterious. And if they couldn't handle the door then the demon on the other side would have slaughtered the lot of them. So... was that too unreasonable? Am I good clever for my own good? What should I have done otherwise seeing the expressions on my players' faces, "DUH... Kan I kil stuf now?" Not really unreasonable, but you should have given more clues, possibly hinted at what is on the other side of the door, and stuff like that. Drawings on the walls, mystical scribbles on the door, or any number of helpful little hints. Also, the party could have checked up on the local stories and tales, which might have hinted that "there is a great, chained, Evil thing under the mountain", or something like that.
penchant 12-03-04, 05:01 AM	Well, as I said some bars had carbon scoring (soot) on them. Those were the bars to be heated. Maybe too subtle, but no one even looked at them. They kept trying to stab the door and pry the gears off. One player had a vorpal sword +1 (2e) and stabbed into the door only to break it off at the hilt by using it as a lever. "you mean you cut a hole in the door?" :confused: "No, I pull sideways. I've got an 18(87) strength!" :D "OK make a BBLG roll." :eek: "I made it!" :w00t: "Great. You lose." :pbbbtt: They knew that they had to get the "Crest of the Marauder" from the room. The golem was the marauder and the crest was on a pedestal in the middle. They didn't have to fight the golem if they grabbed and ran and / or activated the crest. I guess I just have to take into account the relative creativity of the players. :rolleyes: Thanks, guys.
Telperion 12-03-04, 05:22 AM	Incidentally, the room was built to contain a raged ubergolem that had been built from the remains of several destroyed stone and iron golems. Four arms, six legs... maybe it's best they gave up anyway :D Multiarmed template on a golem? Hm...I think I'll try that out myself :).
Stormbright 12-03-04, 05:25 AM	I think that having only one solution to an encounter is a bad idea. Given the variety of spells that were mentioned, I would expect that they should have been able to get in. Also, how would you have ruled if they'd cast "Blink", "Shrink Item", "Dimension Door", "Transmute Rock to Mud" (cast on the floor below the door).? I would hope that at least one of these spells would be available, and if not immediately, then upon a return visit.
Stormbright 12-03-04, 06:15 AM	Oh, I'll also plead ignorance and that I'd have never figured the combination of heat and cold to trigger the door. My first instinct would have been to oil the gears .
Dispeyr 12-03-04, 06:26 AM	One thing you might want to try if you opt to take this route to challenging your players in the future is to allow for Int or Wis checks to get hints, if you're not going to put any more of a hint than a single tiny detail about carbon that they have to search carefully to even notice. I mean, it's not terribly likely that the person playing the wizard is going to have a 22 Int, but the character is supposed to, which means the character, using its abilities, should have a chance to put two and two together and figure out that it may indeed be four. Maybe whip up a quick list of little hints you could give, starting with just placing emphasis on something you've already told them and building up from there, and apply different DCs to them. If a character scores a certain DC, you give them each hint up to that number, until they run out of hints or they figure it out.
bitnine 12-03-04, 06:31 AM	The answer is that they conduct heat. The locking bars that keep the door in place are inside the door but attached to the bars. by heating the right ones and cooling the others, the shrinkage/ expansion of the metal allows the door to open.Hm. What sort of heat is required to make this super-dense uber-alloy expand or contract?
FriendoftheDork 12-03-04, 07:49 AM	I think this one's too hard. Perhaps if the players were experts in the field, but that's no guarantee unless the DM is one also. If I were a player here I would think "damn I hate these ones" I'd probably look for clues and finding none, I would probably have given up. This door seems like one that was never meant to open anyway, so why not just wall the damn golem inside? I have a Dm that tends to have these sort of "one solution only" quests, but then again he's often expects us to fail and has backup adventures. I don't mind quests where you have to think for yourself, such as the Challenge of Champions modules, but those are easier IMO.
Nom 12-03-04, 10:16 AM	There's also the problem that text doesn't convey images very well, especially to a tired mind. I got the 8 spokes OK, but once we got to immovable gears my mind couldn't handle the picture. My suggestion - read your description to a 3rd party twice only, and then have them draw it. If they can't draw a pretty good copy from your description, then don't expect your players to be able to form one in their minds. Might be easier with a real picture to show your players.
eudas 12-03-04, 10:47 AM	this puzzle-door sounds like it was written by a mechanical engineer, for a mechanical engineer... Conductivity? Immovable gears? Shrinking/expanding bars to loosen a door? Screw it... let's just blast the hell out of it, or go around. in the words of Sigourney Weaver (from GalaxyQuest): "Whoever wrote this script should DIE!" :) eudas
Core 12-03-04, 11:44 AM	Im going to go with the int/wis checks for clues or outright solution - this is a roleplaying game, and as mentioned it's entirely possible (likely even) that some of the characters invovled are far smarter than the players. Maybe the only person who could figure it out was the enginerring grad who is playing a barbarian with an int of 3 and he thinks "well I know the answer, but there's no way my character would, I'm just going to keep quiet".
Ty 12-03-04, 11:49 AM	No mechanical engineer would design a door that you had to heat to red hot temperatures to open or to freeze to extreme sub-zero temperatures. Fact of the matter is, it's a door. A door has hinges, and is made for quick entry and exit from a room. It serves to divide one interior space from another. What you're talking about is a "plug" if you would. No, I would not have figured your solution out. The premise underlying opening your door is contradictory to its general intended purpose. Locking mechanisms as you describe could exist yes, but locks, if designed by humanoids who lack the natural capacity to produce such extremes of heat and cold, should be the garden variety manipulation key. Your standard key, a slide pattern, a lever, etc. Furthermore (unless you know right off that this is some special super alloy) extreme heat and cold and the consistent changing of the same, will often result in a weakening of a metal which again, defeats both the puprose of a door and a "plug". Gah! I'm ranting and I'll stop. It's a neat idea but just.... no. No. Gah!!!! I hate it when this thing happens as a player! Rant rant rant rant. Sorry. Okay, solutions as to clues or how to get your players to get around this without a "gimme"..... rant rant, going to be productive here.... rant over. Okay, you've provided some clues but maybe one thing you could provide is another sample door somewhere else that is already open. Give clues as to how the original builders of the door originally opened and closed it. Let the dwarf make a mining/blacksmithing check to see if he realizes that this alloy is subject to extreme contract and expansion due to temperature changes. Allow the players to find old engineering diagrams. As for too clever, well, yes. Unfortunately, as one poster previously suggested, obstacles with only a single method of defeat are not good for a party. Plan for the unexpected and plan for your players not to think like you. Make adjustments on the fly. Your players are 10th level? I'd summon a xorn, just eat the darn door.
mastroyo 12-03-04, 12:03 PM	Try to solve this door puzzle i'm playing in a few days: (FOR LOW LEVEL PC's....NO HIGH MAGIC INVOLVED) There is a heavy non-breakable dood (magical) so it can't be broken bye force. There is a mechanism, consisting of 7 spaces lined up horizontaly. 3 pieces marked X (the symbol is relevant in the story, but let's call it X) are on the left side of the spaces (ocuping space 1, 2 and 3) the middle space has no piece, and the 3 spaces from the right are marked Y. Through a dream they have had, you know that the Xs must go to the right and the Y to the left, but you can only move one piece at a time, one space, and jump only one piece and land in a pieceless space. Do you understand it? 'Couse it's hard to explain without pen and paper, and the sad thing is.... sending an answer is really difficult, but try to solve it... (I recomend cutting some papers and marking them...) IT DOESN'T TAKE MORE THAN 5 MINUTES TO SOLVE!!! I tried this as a work dynamic, to like 30 people, and the fastest was a 50 year old woman (3 min) and for an average of 5-6 min. So, it's not even difficult (and those people i tried it with weren't brilliant, the just could win prizes... :D
Wil Harvey 12-03-04, 12:05 PM	My opinion: This was a ridiculous puzzle. Just ridiculous. And the funny thing is you keep blaming your players for not being as clever as you or lacking proper creativity. I don't know that there is anyone who would have figured this out. With the horribly vague "clue" and the sheer mechanical complexity of the door, there was nothing to go on. And, assuming they did figure out how to open it, they never would have. You said the door opened when certain bars were heated or cooled. That's 3 possible conditions for any particular bar (heated, normal, cooled), and with 8 total bars, that means there were 6561 different combinations of treated bars. Even if the bars could only be heated or cooled, that still leaves 256 possible combinations, and that's assuming they figured out that every bar needed to be heated or cooled, which I don't know how they would have. Bad, bad puzzle.
Wil Harvey 12-03-04, 12:12 PM	Try to solve this door puzzle i'm playing in a few days: (FOR LOW LEVEL PC's....NO HIGH MAGIC INVOLVED) There is a heavy non-breakable dood (magical) so it can't be broken bye force. There is a mechanism, consisting of 7 spaces lined up horizontaly. 3 pieces marked X (the symbol is relevant in the story, but let's call it X) are on the left side of the spaces (ocuping space 1, 2 and 3) the middle space has no piece, and the 3 spaces from the right are marked Y. Through a dream they have had, you know that the Xs must go to the right and the Y to the left, but you can only move one piece at a time, one space, and jump only one piece and land in a pieceless space. Do you understand it? 'Couse it's hard to explain without pen and paper, and the sad thing is.... sending an answer is really difficult, but try to solve it... (I recomend cutting some papers and marking them...) XXX_YYY XXXY_YY XX_YXYY XXY_XYY X_YXXYY XY_XXYY _YXXXYY Y_XXXYY YX_XXYY YXX_XYY YXXYX_Y YXXY_XY YXXYYX_ YXXYY_X YXXY_YX YX_YXYX YXY_XYX YXYYX_X YXYY_XX YXY_YXX Y_YXYXX YY_XYXX YYYX_XX YYY_XXX There's a million different ways to go about doing this, but there's one.
ermedic 12-03-04, 12:14 PM	Multiarmed template on a golem? Hm...I think I'll try that out myself :). I did this once with a stone golem. His MO was to grab someone and lift them off the ground with 2 arms while the other two arms pummeled the person. Mortal Combat anyone? It was virtually a TPK. One PC survived with less than 10 HP remaining. The answer is that they conduct heat. The locking bars that keep the door in place are inside the door but attached to the bars. by heating the right ones and cooling the others, the shrinkage/ expansion of the metal allows the door to open. I'm sorry but I doubt that I ever would have gotten this without more clues. I agree that an Int/Wis check to know something about the properties of the metal would be helpful. As I said, my resonse would have been to go around the door in one form or another. There is no limit to ways around this door for a good spellcaster. Heck, simply cast Summon Monster or Planar Ally in order to summon something that can burrow (a Thoqqua would work well, I imagine). My point is, they should have been able to figure out how to get into the room, sounds like they just got hung up on the door.
Wolf72 12-03-04, 12:18 PM	Oh, I'll also plead ignorance and that I'd have never figured the combination of heat and cold to trigger the door. My first instinct would have been to oil the gears . same here ... although ... maybe this is were some research (knowledge skills and a sage/library) and couple of divination spells might come in handy ... if you were going to drop a hint make it "ya know the sage in town might have a couple of divination scrolls or even know something about the door ... or know how might (nice side quests here ... ala Baldur's Gate CRPG)"
mastroyo 12-03-04, 12:21 PM	XXX_YYY XXXY_YY XX_YXYY XXY_XYY X_YXXYY XY_XXYY _YXXXYY Y_XXXYY YX_XXYY YXX_XYY YXXYX_Y YXXY_XY YXXYYX_ YXXYY_X YXXY_YX YX_YXYX YXY_XYX YXYYX_X YXYY_XX YXY_YXX Y_YXYXX YY_XYXX YYYX_XX YYY_XXX There's a million different ways to go about doing this, but there's one. My explanation wasn't so bad after all, was it? :P I think perhaps its a little easy. Maybe i'll find a way to make it a little difficult, perhaps setting on a trap every time they make a mistake...
mastroyo 12-03-04, 12:25 PM	My explanation wasn't so bad after all, was it? :P I think perhaps its a little easy. Maybe i'll find a way to make it a little difficult, perhaps setting on a trap every time they make a mistake... You backtraked (spelling sucks) a piece here. I don't know if that's allowed, will have to ask the guy who explained me the puzzle. I believe that without backtraking it would be a lot more difficult.
Wil Harvey 12-03-04, 12:30 PM	XXX_YYY XXXY_YY XX_YXYY X_XYXYY XYX_XYY XYXYX_Y XYXYXY_ XYXY_YX XY_YXYX _YXYXYX Y_XYXYX YYX_XYX YYXYX_X YYXY_XX YY_YXXX YYY_XXX No backtracking. Definitely a little bit more difficult, but still very do-able. I'd make a trap go off anytime they have to move a piece backwards. That should up the tension of the puzzle a little more. I'd make the trap something like a shocking grasp spell, something that affects only the person touching the piece. That should create an interesting dynamic between who are the main decision-makers (or at least the most adamant) and who is getting zapped if they mess up.
mycroft65536 12-03-04, 12:46 PM	The spells open and knock should get past most dood chalenges(widen'd open especially)
Stormbright 12-03-04, 12:48 PM	I love that last solution. I solved it in 20 with some backtracking. So perhaps I'd have gotten the puzzle with a minimum of damage. The shocking graps for each piece that backtracks should be used.
alecthemad 12-03-04, 12:58 PM	The answer is that they conduct heat. The locking bars that keep the door in place are inside the door but attached to the bars. by heating the right ones and cooling the others, the shrinkage/ expansion of the metal allows the door to open. So... was that too unreasonable? Am I good clever for my own good? What should I have done otherwise seeing the expressions on my players' faces, "DUH... Kan I kil stuf now?" I think you were too clever for your own good. For something like that you have to plant clues in other parts of the dungeon, books or diagrams. Or put some clues that make it more obvious. For example have a special funnel part that looks like it fits on half the bars. Its handle is insulated and covered with soot. Another nearly identical (flip side) part is also insulated but appears free of dirt. Now you have two pieces that perform dual functions. First they narrow down the choices of heating and cooling, second they give a ready method to do the heating and cooling. The players still have to figure out how to actually heat and cool. Also be careful of your descriptive text. The gears seem to indicate a mechanical solution as opposed to a physics based one. "Carbon scoring" makes me think of star wars not heating stuff. Soot or ash now that indicates some sort of heating. Also you could have had them encounter a ready source of one or both solutions such as a really chilly room with ice creatures followed by a fire room with salamanders. Then the problem becomes getting the ice through the fire room. One problem many DM's forget about is the vast possibility of solutions based upon the descriptive text and/or pictures presented to the players. Only you the DM know all the background and without clueing the players in on some of that background it is unreasonable to expect them to solve anything.
Shard of Suzail 12-03-04, 01:01 PM	I have grown to hate puzzles and riddles in d and d. I have never been particularly good at logic tests, being more an emotional responder and long term strategy animal. These days i just point to the party wizard, with his 25 intelligence, and say "he solves it" (when i`m playing that is). As a gm, the only time i put riddles by doors is when they are complete red herrings that waste the time of intruders or set off traps. My villains have the sense not to want intruders figuring out the codes to their doors. As to complex puzzles, well, i dont play d and d to figure those out. My character has an int stat for a reason and i`m content to roll on such things. If my character cant figure it out, then i have her go off and research the situation. As said previously, if our mage cant figure something out, then why should my character bother? Soberingly, my cleric`s int is her highest stat, but that doesnt help me figure out these stupid puzzles one bit. She may be the librarian of suzail's war wizards, but i`m not and i`m no expert on magic theory like she is either. If i came across a door like this, then i would try and solve it by hiding and watching another use it, or perhaps via research or lore skills. Turning something like this over to the players to logic crunch is just an exercise in frustration and doesnt lead to fun gameplay.
Someone 12-03-04, 01:42 PM	Its a normal DM error: never have the plot hinge on the players figuring something out. It doesn't matter how many clues you think you dropped, the players will either not hear you the first time, forget or mishear what you said, or not realise they were clues. I agree with SoS, there's nothing wrong with the character being smarter than the player. If it can be figured out with a timely Int check, I say let it. Just set the DC high so that the character has to either be incredibly smart (the Int 25 wizard) or take 20 (and a lot of time during which other things could happen, like wandering monsters).
jasper 12-03-04, 01:50 PM	Unless your players are used to these puzzles outside the game you need to put clues before hand in various parts of dungeon, unless your pcs take down every room and clear each level before the next one. Puzzles should be a blend of matching a pc abilities and players abilities. Some of my players love word puzzles and magic 15/ rubic cube puzzles so I try to do both. However you can not get too creative dress up your puzzle. Which leaves Shard's solution of grab the highest int and roll dice. For example a stone door is before you with the follow letters in six inch high letters. Abcde Fghik Lmnop qRstu vwxyz A skeleton is dead before the door. The number 31 is scratch into the floor before it. A detect magic spell reveals the following letters NQRFN OZMHQG IQG HQWHZ Note J is missing from the matrix on purpose. Spoiler lines below. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . Which is Knock Friend and enter. If I counted correctly 3 over and 1 down. However when I did this the hand out was a very old English font which they had trouble just reading normally. Two hated because they hate those type puzzles. And suggested pounding on it till the door fell apart. The others suggest even the 31 was too little but if I was to do another one to include an answer which had more E and other repeatable letters so they could firgure it out.
Toptomcat 12-03-04, 01:57 PM	A puzzle that depended on bloody heat expansion? You needed to give them many more hints. A lit magical blowtorch-equivilant lying around, for example.