A Double Bane in my Rear!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Double Bane in my Rear!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Meddros
09-24-07, 06:20 PM I have some very creative players and the most recent thing I have to deal with from one of them is can a weapon have two types of bane that effect the same creature? I have as of yet found nothing to contradict this but I am under the impression it would not work. As a DM I want to say no but it usually helps to have a rule to back this up.
The situation that brought this question about is this. A player has a Sword with Bane to evil outsiders. But the Artificer wants to buff it with an infusion (and eventually with a permanent upgrade) to not only have the original bane but also "Bane Demons". Then it covers two creature types. Honestly the demons are not a common thing but it is the focus right now in the adventure we are on.
I just don't see the sword getting a +4 (plus 2 for each bane) and then an additional damage of 4d6 (2d6 each bane) to one creature type. I might be willing to say they cannot get both Bane pluses to hit but still allow the extra damage because most pluses in the game never allow for stacking. Where there is not a clear rule on dice.
In the end this is not going to really kill my campaign but I would like to hear what you all have to say about it.
Vanraya
09-24-07, 06:23 PM HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ohhhh man....best title ever....

Anyway, back on subject, no I dont believe they stack. I mean ever hear of a +1 Double Flaming Longsword?
Ebonarc
09-24-07, 06:29 PM I think they would stack, but there is one small detail: It would have to be Bane (evil outsiders) and Bane (chaotic outsiders) Since it has to go against a subtype, Bane (demons) is out.
darkneolink
09-24-07, 06:34 PM monster manual page 308

The Babau demon has damage reduction 10 cold iron or good, either kind of weapon overcome the damage reduction.
yadda yadda yadda
The lich has damage reduction 15 bludgeoing and magic (words) a magical sword or a nonmagical mace is no better harming a lich than any other weapon

so I think that you could use it in this case too if the creature is afected by both he will be affected by both (they are not the same bonus)
Some_call_me_Tim
09-24-07, 06:45 PM A couple of problems I see. I can find nowhere that says you can have multiple of same enhancement on the sword (of course I can't find a reference that says you can't either). There is a note on the random generation table that says re-roll if you get a duplicate ability, but then the argument is that bane (something) the same as bane (other).

There is no Bane (demons) (at least core rules). This is probably your better tack on the problem. Of course then he would try bane (evil outsider) and bane (chaotic outsider).

Also bane shouldn't stack with itself. While it is an unnamed bonus it is essentially from the same source. So, even if you allow bane (evil outsider) and bane (chaotic outsider), the bonus against a chaotic evil outsider is still only +2 plus 2d6 extra damage. The advantage is that now it works with an evil or chaotic outsider.

Even if you say no double banes, he could still go axiomatic and bane (evil outsider).

The bigger question is just how many demons is this guy fighting? Sure he can take out demons left and right with such a weapon but its not better than a +1 longsword against most creatures. That's a DM and campaign question that says how much such a thing might really be worth.
DM_Dan
09-24-07, 06:47 PM I would be tempted to point out that as all Demons (the ones in the SRD do, anyway) have the Evil subtype as well as the Chaotic subtype, the sword is already 'Demon Bane' to the extent that can reasonably be expected.

I would be tempted to allow an additional Bane effect to the sword, but since Bane adds to the weapon's effective enhancement bonus, I would say that two would not stack if whatever creature he was attacking with it were to be covered by both Banes. The extra damage is a bit of an unusual case, and there is no real precedent (that I'm aware of off hand) for it. If I were disallowing the extra attack bonus, however, I would count the whole thing as non-stacking and only give him one set of extra damage as well.

The rules are not clear here, so it is a matter for your best judgement. Make a ruling and go for it. At worst, you've given him an extra bonus against creatures you admit are not even all that common in your game...

Hope this helps,

DMD.
deathbane
09-24-07, 07:49 PM I have some very creative players and the most recent thing I have to deal with from one of them is can a weapon have two types of bane that effect the same creature? I have as of yet found nothing to contradict this but I am under the impression it would not work. As a DM I want to say no but it usually helps to have a rule to back this up.
The situation that brought this question about is this. A player has a Sword with Bane to evil outsiders. But the Artificer wants to buff it with an infusion (and eventually with a permanent upgrade) to not only have the original bane but also "Bane Demons". Then it covers two creature types. Honestly the demons are not a common thing but it is the focus right now in the adventure we are on.
I just don't see the sword getting a +4 (plus 2 for each bane) and then an additional damage of 4d6 (2d6 each bane) to one creature type. I might be willing to say they cannot get both Bane pluses to hit but still allow the extra damage because most pluses in the game never allow for stacking. Where there is not a clear rule on dice.
In the end this is not going to really kill my campaign but I would like to hear what you all have to say about it.

I would say yes. If he wants to spend all his money to fight one creature type it is his loss, not yours, unless you have him to much money.

P.S. I could not find rules on this so the above statement was just my opinion.
LoneStranger
09-24-07, 07:59 PM I'd say they don't stack, it's just that weapon has more options to get through the DR of a demon.

...although I do have to wonder why the player wants his character to be able to do so much damage to demons on sight.
The9Circles
09-24-07, 08:33 PM @OP
The general rule of thumb is unnamed bonuses from the same source (in this case Bane <Type>) don't stack. However...it is hardly unbalancing unless your running 75+% demons in encounters.

I'd say they don't stack, it's just that weapon has more options to get through the DR of a demon.

...although I do have to wonder why the player wants his character to be able to do so much damage to demons on sight.

"A demon killed my family and left me for dead. I have horrible disfiguring scars so I wear a black cloak to 'cover up' and lurk in the corners of taverns."

Maybe.
DwarvenArcher
09-24-07, 09:41 PM I've found that a good house rule is to only allow one flavor damage effect on a given weapon.
deathbane
09-24-07, 11:23 PM I was assuming this was a normal campaign. If it is a campaign dealing with demons then I would say no to the request.
Disciple_of_Salsa
09-24-07, 11:37 PM What about double fiercebane?
Senevri
09-24-07, 11:57 PM I've found that a good house rule is to only allow one flavor damage effect on a given weapon.

...I'm somewhat intrigued, yet terrified by the fact you've NEEDED such a houserule.

I admit, though, Flaming, Shocking, Frost blade (Trielemental?) may be a bit hard to visualize.

In this case, I would say that Bane doesn't stack with itself, although Bane:Evil works vs. demons, devils and yugoloth. Bane: Chaotic works vs. demons, Eladrin and... something else too, probably.

However an Axiomatic Evilbane works fine, so if he wants a demon-slaying sword, he can get it. It is probably better go this route, as you could have a Bane:Evil, Bane Chaotic, Holy Axiomatic weapon, which would, if all is allowed, add +8d6 damage vs. Demons.
...Actually, you could have a +6d6 weapon vs. Demons without any questions asked. Hm. Interesting.

Personally, I prefer Wounding over most enchantments. It's very useful most of the time.
Lotusblossom
09-25-07, 03:37 AM Does not stack. Melee Weapon Mastery (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing) doesn't stack. Rage + variant Rage doesn't stack.
Vharuck
09-25-07, 08:27 AM A bane weapon excels at attacking one type or subtype of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition. To randomly determine a weapon’s designated foe, roll on the following table.

I bolded the important part. What's the normal enhancement bonus of a +1 chaotic and/or evil outsider bane longsword? It's +1. That applies to both bane properties, meaning the sword will not become a +5 but a +3. Bane doesn't add two to the enhancement bonus, it says it's specifically 2 higher than normal. This prevents it from stacking.

However, the bonus damage merely says "an extra 2d6." Not "2d6 more than normal," so RAW seems to say that the damage from both abilities add together.

And really, that's not that bad.
Meddros
09-25-07, 12:00 PM Thank you all for giving me great suggestions and all helping me come to a conclusion.

Vharuck you and I are on the same page but you also pointed out that very last part about the +2 attack and damage bonus not stacking. I was going with that idea but not with rules. You have given me the rule that I need to show them where I am coming from.

I really don't care if they want to put the double bane on the weapon but they will be sad when this adventure is over and they are onto the next one where there may be no demons at all. Back to a +1 sword it is. hehehe
psionichamster
09-25-07, 01:32 PM personally, one would have to convince me why different Bane effects would NOT stack.

(save for the +2 enhancement thing...thats a flat +2 to normal increase, not +2 in general).

they are different enchantments, to the point where you have to determine if its Bane (Human) or Bane (Elf).

those seem to me to be different enough to be completely different enchantments, despite having the same inital name.

With this, you could have a Dragonbane, Magebane Sword that does +4d6, with an enhancement boost of +2 to all spell-casting dragons (or kobolds).

or, Gnomebane, Magebane, with the same exact results.

Also, why would Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Corrosive not "stack" and deal more d6's of energy damage? Sure, it may be odd to think of a sword doing both cold and fire damage, but there's no rules against it, as far as I can tell.

-the hamster
Goon_for_Hire
09-25-07, 02:28 PM I admit, though, Flaming, Shocking, Frost blade (Trielemental?) may be a bit hard to visualize.

That was actually a gimmick for an item in one of my campaigns... an intelligent bow called "Rayne." The arroes would freeze on the bottom, begin burning on the top, and drip miniscule amounts of water. When fired, the arrow would leave a trail of water droples behind it.

When my players tried to abuse it, I just ruled that you can;t hold back an arrow indefinitely, or you'll damage the string, and eventually the "held" energy dissipates... that and the Bow got angry at you for screwing around when you ought to be either using her or keeping her safe.

I later upped the ante with the "bow of five sorrows"

Whenever a PC knocked an arrow the arrow would freeze, then bign to steam and then become surrounded by a darkening cloud of water vapour, that eventually turned into a tiny thunderhead, dripping water from the consistently melting frost and spitting out little sparks. and little rumbles of thunder. The water hissed when it touched the ground.

As to the question at hand... there's no reason why you couldn't put two different banes on a weapon, but like other people said, I doubt they'd stack. Also... if your PC specifically wants to pick on a monster like an evil outsider, he'd get more bang for his buck by having the weapon enchanted with both bane and holy. (Or bane and some other alignment type.)
Ebonarc
09-25-07, 03:38 PM Meddros-if you do indeed decide to rule that the two banes will stack damage, but not attack bonuses, and your players are annoyed, you might want to point them to the "sacred" special ability. It would give the same benefits against evil outsiders, but would also deal extra damage against undead, and all for just a +1 pricing increase.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meddros 09-24-07, 06:20 PM	I have some very creative players and the most recent thing I have to deal with from one of them is can a weapon have two types of bane that effect the same creature? I have as of yet found nothing to contradict this but I am under the impression it would not work. As a DM I want to say no but it usually helps to have a rule to back this up. The situation that brought this question about is this. A player has a Sword with Bane to evil outsiders. But the Artificer wants to buff it with an infusion (and eventually with a permanent upgrade) to not only have the original bane but also "Bane Demons". Then it covers two creature types. Honestly the demons are not a common thing but it is the focus right now in the adventure we are on. I just don't see the sword getting a +4 (plus 2 for each bane) and then an additional damage of 4d6 (2d6 each bane) to one creature type. I might be willing to say they cannot get both Bane pluses to hit but still allow the extra damage because most pluses in the game never allow for stacking. Where there is not a clear rule on dice. In the end this is not going to really kill my campaign but I would like to hear what you all have to say about it.
Vanraya 09-24-07, 06:23 PM	HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ohhhh man....best title ever.... Anyway, back on subject, no I dont believe they stack. I mean ever hear of a +1 Double Flaming Longsword?
Ebonarc 09-24-07, 06:29 PM	I think they would stack, but there is one small detail: It would have to be Bane (evil outsiders) and Bane (chaotic outsiders) Since it has to go against a subtype, Bane (demons) is out.
darkneolink 09-24-07, 06:34 PM	monster manual page 308 The Babau demon has damage reduction 10 cold iron or good, either kind of weapon overcome the damage reduction. yadda yadda yadda The lich has damage reduction 15 bludgeoing and magic (words) a magical sword or a nonmagical mace is no better harming a lich than any other weapon so I think that you could use it in this case too if the creature is afected by both he will be affected by both (they are not the same bonus)
Some_call_me_Tim 09-24-07, 06:45 PM	A couple of problems I see. I can find nowhere that says you can have multiple of same enhancement on the sword (of course I can't find a reference that says you can't either). There is a note on the random generation table that says re-roll if you get a duplicate ability, but then the argument is that bane (something) the same as bane (other). There is no Bane (demons) (at least core rules). This is probably your better tack on the problem. Of course then he would try bane (evil outsider) and bane (chaotic outsider). Also bane shouldn't stack with itself. While it is an unnamed bonus it is essentially from the same source. So, even if you allow bane (evil outsider) and bane (chaotic outsider), the bonus against a chaotic evil outsider is still only +2 plus 2d6 extra damage. The advantage is that now it works with an evil or chaotic outsider. Even if you say no double banes, he could still go axiomatic and bane (evil outsider). The bigger question is just how many demons is this guy fighting? Sure he can take out demons left and right with such a weapon but its not better than a +1 longsword against most creatures. That's a DM and campaign question that says how much such a thing might really be worth.
DM_Dan 09-24-07, 06:47 PM	I would be tempted to point out that as all Demons (the ones in the SRD do, anyway) have the Evil subtype as well as the Chaotic subtype, the sword is already 'Demon Bane' to the extent that can reasonably be expected. I would be tempted to allow an additional Bane effect to the sword, but since Bane adds to the weapon's effective enhancement bonus, I would say that two would not stack if whatever creature he was attacking with it were to be covered by both Banes. The extra damage is a bit of an unusual case, and there is no real precedent (that I'm aware of off hand) for it. If I were disallowing the extra attack bonus, however, I would count the whole thing as non-stacking and only give him one set of extra damage as well. The rules are not clear here, so it is a matter for your best judgement. Make a ruling and go for it. At worst, you've given him an extra bonus against creatures you admit are not even all that common in your game... Hope this helps, DMD.
deathbane 09-24-07, 07:49 PM	I have some very creative players and the most recent thing I have to deal with from one of them is can a weapon have two types of bane that effect the same creature? I have as of yet found nothing to contradict this but I am under the impression it would not work. As a DM I want to say no but it usually helps to have a rule to back this up. The situation that brought this question about is this. A player has a Sword with Bane to evil outsiders. But the Artificer wants to buff it with an infusion (and eventually with a permanent upgrade) to not only have the original bane but also "Bane Demons". Then it covers two creature types. Honestly the demons are not a common thing but it is the focus right now in the adventure we are on. I just don't see the sword getting a +4 (plus 2 for each bane) and then an additional damage of 4d6 (2d6 each bane) to one creature type. I might be willing to say they cannot get both Bane pluses to hit but still allow the extra damage because most pluses in the game never allow for stacking. Where there is not a clear rule on dice. In the end this is not going to really kill my campaign but I would like to hear what you all have to say about it. I would say yes. If he wants to spend all his money to fight one creature type it is his loss, not yours, unless you have him to much money. P.S. I could not find rules on this so the above statement was just my opinion.
LoneStranger 09-24-07, 07:59 PM	I'd say they don't stack, it's just that weapon has more options to get through the DR of a demon. ...although I do have to wonder why the player wants his character to be able to do so much damage to demons on sight.
The9Circles 09-24-07, 08:33 PM	@OP The general rule of thumb is unnamed bonuses from the same source (in this case Bane <Type>) don't stack. However...it is hardly unbalancing unless your running 75+% demons in encounters. I'd say they don't stack, it's just that weapon has more options to get through the DR of a demon. ...although I do have to wonder why the player wants his character to be able to do so much damage to demons on sight. "A demon killed my family and left me for dead. I have horrible disfiguring scars so I wear a black cloak to 'cover up' and lurk in the corners of taverns." Maybe.
DwarvenArcher 09-24-07, 09:41 PM	I've found that a good house rule is to only allow one flavor damage effect on a given weapon.
deathbane 09-24-07, 11:23 PM	I was assuming this was a normal campaign. If it is a campaign dealing with demons then I would say no to the request.
Disciple_of_Salsa 09-24-07, 11:37 PM	What about double fiercebane?
Senevri 09-24-07, 11:57 PM	I've found that a good house rule is to only allow one flavor damage effect on a given weapon. ...I'm somewhat intrigued, yet terrified by the fact you've NEEDED such a houserule. I admit, though, Flaming, Shocking, Frost blade (Trielemental?) may be a bit hard to visualize. In this case, I would say that Bane doesn't stack with itself, although Bane:Evil works vs. demons, devils and yugoloth. Bane: Chaotic works vs. demons, Eladrin and... something else too, probably. However an Axiomatic Evilbane works fine, so if he wants a demon-slaying sword, he can get it. It is probably better go this route, as you could have a Bane:Evil, Bane Chaotic, Holy Axiomatic weapon, which would, if all is allowed, add +8d6 damage vs. Demons. ...Actually, you could have a +6d6 weapon vs. Demons without any questions asked. Hm. Interesting. Personally, I prefer Wounding over most enchantments. It's very useful most of the time.
Lotusblossom 09-25-07, 03:37 AM	Does not stack. Melee Weapon Mastery (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing) doesn't stack. Rage + variant Rage doesn't stack.
Vharuck 09-25-07, 08:27 AM	A bane weapon excels at attacking one type or subtype of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the bane quality upon their ammunition. To randomly determine a weapon’s designated foe, roll on the following table. I bolded the important part. What's the normal enhancement bonus of a +1 chaotic and/or evil outsider bane longsword? It's +1. That applies to both bane properties, meaning the sword will not become a +5 but a +3. Bane doesn't add two to the enhancement bonus, it says it's specifically 2 higher than normal. This prevents it from stacking. However, the bonus damage merely says "an extra 2d6." Not "2d6 more than normal," so RAW seems to say that the damage from both abilities add together. And really, that's not that bad.
Meddros 09-25-07, 12:00 PM	Thank you all for giving me great suggestions and all helping me come to a conclusion. Vharuck you and I are on the same page but you also pointed out that very last part about the +2 attack and damage bonus not stacking. I was going with that idea but not with rules. You have given me the rule that I need to show them where I am coming from. I really don't care if they want to put the double bane on the weapon but they will be sad when this adventure is over and they are onto the next one where there may be no demons at all. Back to a +1 sword it is. hehehe
psionichamster 09-25-07, 01:32 PM	personally, one would have to convince me why different Bane effects would NOT stack. (save for the +2 enhancement thing...thats a flat +2 to normal increase, not +2 in general). they are different enchantments, to the point where you have to determine if its Bane (Human) or Bane (Elf). those seem to me to be different enough to be completely different enchantments, despite having the same inital name. With this, you could have a Dragonbane, Magebane Sword that does +4d6, with an enhancement boost of +2 to all spell-casting dragons (or kobolds). or, Gnomebane, Magebane, with the same exact results. Also, why would Flaming, Frost, Shocking, Corrosive not "stack" and deal more d6's of energy damage? Sure, it may be odd to think of a sword doing both cold and fire damage, but there's no rules against it, as far as I can tell. -the hamster
Goon_for_Hire 09-25-07, 02:28 PM	I admit, though, Flaming, Shocking, Frost blade (Trielemental?) may be a bit hard to visualize. That was actually a gimmick for an item in one of my campaigns... an intelligent bow called "Rayne." The arroes would freeze on the bottom, begin burning on the top, and drip miniscule amounts of water. When fired, the arrow would leave a trail of water droples behind it. When my players tried to abuse it, I just ruled that you can;t hold back an arrow indefinitely, or you'll damage the string, and eventually the "held" energy dissipates... that and the Bow got angry at you for screwing around when you ought to be either using her or keeping her safe. I later upped the ante with the "bow of five sorrows" Whenever a PC knocked an arrow the arrow would freeze, then bign to steam and then become surrounded by a darkening cloud of water vapour, that eventually turned into a tiny thunderhead, dripping water from the consistently melting frost and spitting out little sparks. and little rumbles of thunder. The water hissed when it touched the ground. As to the question at hand... there's no reason why you couldn't put two different banes on a weapon, but like other people said, I doubt they'd stack. Also... if your PC specifically wants to pick on a monster like an evil outsider, he'd get more bang for his buck by having the weapon enchanted with both bane and holy. (Or bane and some other alignment type.)
Ebonarc 09-25-07, 03:38 PM	Meddros-if you do indeed decide to rule that the two banes will stack damage, but not attack bonuses, and your players are annoyed, you might want to point them to the "sacred" special ability. It would give the same benefits against evil outsiders, but would also deal extra damage against undead, and all for just a +1 pricing increase.