Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chimaera2000 04-25-05, 01:59 PM	An issue came up in the last game of D & D that I was running. The PC's, all around 20th level, encountered an ancient shadow dragon and all beat it on initiative. Before the dragon could act, they'd blasted away two-thirds of its HP (mainly through magic), so the dragon obviously wants to boost its defenses. It casts antimagic field, and, well, I think you can tell that things aren't going to be pretty. The question I wanted to ask the rest of the DM's on this board is this: have you encountered this situation before, and if so, how did you deal with it? My experience is that antimagic field is balanced in most situations, but a dragon becomes virtually unstoppable with it active. After all, they become immune to spells and suppress any magic item that enters their range (to my knowledge, that also includes ranged weapons like arrows), while keeping their incredible combat prowess intact. Even though they can no longer use their breath weapon, spells, or spell-like abilities, it seems to me that the only things that a party can do in this situation are: 1) Run away 2) Beg for mercy 3) Die 4) Cast Mordenkaimen's Disjunction and pray that they can take down the dragon before it brings up another field. The only thing I noted that might mix this up is that the field might cover only the dragon, meaning that the magic items of PC's would function normally, but I'm not sure if that's the case. Can anyone clarify or comment on this? Thanks in advance.
PenderGrass 04-25-05, 02:16 PM	....it seems to me that the only things that a party can do in this situation are: 3) Die You have the proper PC reaction to a dragon with your option #3. Any other option should never be considered. :dragon:
Luni 04-25-05, 02:20 PM	Hmm. I think a dragons DR is magical, so that would go down too. Also, any conjuration spell with an instanteous duration would still work if cast outside the field. The party could use terrain as an advantage too. Couldn't they just teleport out? If the fights going really badly, won't they have a plan to get out when the going gets rough. They they could come back the next day, and simply use counter-magic on the antimagic field.
Lord Ian Stark 04-25-05, 02:21 PM	It casts antimagic field, Well what does it say in the rules according to area of effect?
Lord Ian Stark 04-25-05, 02:22 PM	Hmm. Couldn't they just teleport out? the antimagic field. Are you missing something here Luni?
PenderGrass 04-25-05, 02:23 PM	Hmm. I think a dragons DR is magical, so that would go down too. Incorrect. Damage Reduction for a dragon is just like any other DR and is unaffected by an Anti-Magic Field. :dragon: ****
Derren S. 04-25-05, 02:26 PM	That is incorrect. DR which need magic to bypass (/magic and /alignment) goes away in AMFs. See the FAQ.
Luni 04-25-05, 02:27 PM	Unless the adventurers enjoy teleporting into closed rooms to slay dragons, they could just run outside the area of effect. Unless the room is limited to a 50' radius with no doors or exits, there is usually another way out. If I was getting my head handed to me by a dragon, and the wizard said lets retreat, I would take the AoO and escape from the dragon.
Lord Ian Stark 04-25-05, 02:44 PM	If I was getting my head handed to me by a dragon, and the wizard said lets retreat, I would take the AoO and escape from the dragon. And as the dragon I would get a grapple of the person who has that power or someone else so the characters will have to make the choice of stay and help there friend or leave him for dead. A Shadow Dragon is not an idiot people.
PenderGrass 04-25-05, 03:00 PM	That is incorrect. DR which need magic to bypass (/magic and /alignment) goes away in AMFs. See the FAQ. You are correct, and so was Luni, I guess it is time for the Dragon to take a few levels of Barbarian. :dragon: ****
hensteeth 04-25-05, 04:51 PM	Do any of you think that a party of 4 fighters/pallys/rangers/rogues (and any combination there of ) be able to take an equal cr dragon?
MasterRookie 04-25-05, 05:30 PM	Did you mean for this to happen. Its a very tough situation. I guess you'll have to see if your PC's can think of a way to handle it. There's probably a post by your players right now in the player section asking how to deal with this.
PenderGrass 04-25-05, 05:30 PM	Do any of you think that a party of 4 fighters/pallys/rangers/rogues (and any combination there of ) be able to take an equal cr dragon? Since most of my Dragons that populate my world are ~CR75+, I would doubt that it would be an easy fight. Most people don't let their dragons have max hps, do max breath damage (and can breathe every round), rolled stats with appropriate modifiers, min/max'd feat selections to maximize killing/domination power, nor boost their dragons with multiple classes and a template I would rather not reveal in public (grown people have been known to faint from lesser things - ;) ). But, then again, I like dragons to be truly ancient survivors of times and things totally incomprehensible to the younger races - like elves, dwarves and the like. Yes, a dragon is never straight out of the MM in my world and I would lay odds that my stats for a hatchling dragon would mop the battlemat with most 20th level PCs. :dragon: ****
Burgundy Lotus 04-25-05, 05:48 PM	Do any of you think that a party of 4 fighters/pallys/rangers/rogues (and any combination there of ) be able to take an equal cr dragon? I think that it possible, and most likely if they are really prepared, it should never be easy though, victories should be as rare as....well hens teeth :P
Asciiman 04-25-05, 05:51 PM	Since most of my Dragons that populate my world are ~CR75+, I would doubt that it would be an easy fight. Most people don't let their dragons have max hps, do max breath damage (and can breathe every round), rolled stats with appropriate modifiers, min/max'd feat selections to maximize killing/domination power, nor boost their dragons with multiple classes and a template I would rather not reveal in public (grown people have been known to faint from lesser things - ;) ). But, then again, I like dragons to be truly ancient survivors of times and things totally incomprehensible to the younger races - like elves, dwarves and the like. Yes, a dragon is never straight out of the MM in my world and I would lay odds that my stats for a hatchling dragon would mop the battlemat with most 20th level PCs. :dragon: **** Well if you are just going to create crap, then fine. I guess I could just tell my PC's that their characters all die as soon as they even glimpse a dragon. But that would be stupid.
PenderGrass 04-25-05, 05:56 PM	Well if you are just going to create crap, then fine. "crap"? Sheesh, if only you knew. It is okay though, your snap judgement and rude comment are more telling of your fecal attitude than anything I have posted about my game. Thanks for playing though. :dragon: ****
Elendur 04-25-05, 05:58 PM	The youngest Red Dragon capable of casting antimagic field is old, a CR 20. At that level a party 18-20th level should be able to figure something out, or at least retreat and prepare better for next time. You can counterspell it, wish, miracle, disjoin it, or just run away and wait for it to expire.
Athryn 04-25-05, 05:59 PM	To answer the original question, the AMF is only 10' in radius, centered on the dragon. In addition, any part of a creature that is outside of the field is unaffected. While I'm not familiar with size categories for shadow dragons, if it's ancient odds are it's large enough that parts of it are sticking out of the field. If the dragon is gargantuan or larger, the AMF will be entirely inside the dragon, meaning that the dragon just screwed itself over - it lost the ability to cast spells, but the party can still use magic against it. Also, PCs could choose to attack the parts of it that are in the AMF if they wanted to avoid its DR at the cost of any magical attack bonus. On the other hand, if the dragon is huge or smaller, it is entirely within the AMF. As you mentioned, the breath weapon is supernatural, so the dragon will be unable to use it. It'll still probably tear the party apart with its claws, teeth, and other nasty appendages though. Edit: If they try to run, keep in mind that any fly speed over 90' is supernatural too, so the dragon's fly speed will be capped at 90'.
Edymnion 04-25-05, 06:06 PM	Yeah, basically a Dragon in an AMF is a dead dragon. They lose their Damage Reduction, and they lose their breath weapon. AMF basically takes a living atomic bomb and knocks them down to a big lizard. Especially if the PCs have ranged weapons, it becomes a very simple matter to just stand outside the field and pincushion it to death, since the Dragon just lost ALL ability to fight back. The correct answer in this sitation is that the Dragon would run away. It is an intelligent creature, its Int score is probably higher than the entire party's put together even. It is NOT going to sit around and let itself be killed. Once it realizes that its in trouble and isn't guarenteed victory, its going to high tail it to safety, lick it's wounds, and then come get the party back when they aren't expecting him to wipe them out. Remember, this thing is an ANCIENT dragon. It has survived hundreds if not thousands of attempts to kill it, and survived every last one of them. It didn't get that way by standing around waiting to die. If it even THINKS its not going to make it, you can be assured that its going to simply run for it's life. After all, think about it if it were you. Real life, a 5 year old comes up and says he's going to beat you up. Are you afraid? No, its a stupid little kid. Stupid little kid pulls a gun and shoots you in the shoulder, are you going to sit there and wait for him to finish the job? Hell no, you're going to duck for cover and all around run for your life. NOTHING will fight to the death unless its guarding something more important than it is, or its been backed into a corner where fighting is its only choice.
Athryn 04-25-05, 06:09 PM	"crap"? Sheesh, if only you knew. It is okay though, your snap judgement and rude comment are more telling of your fecal attitude than anything I have posted about my game. Thanks for playing though. :dragon: **** He was a bit rude about it, but you did manage to come off as a dragon fanboi in your post. If you want to make dragons deity-level beings in your campaign then that's fine. Nevertheless, in standard D&D, which the original poster is playing, dragons are merely extremely powerful beings that a well-equipped L20 party is completely capable of dealing with.
Lord Ian Stark 04-25-05, 06:10 PM	The youngest Red Dragon capable of casting antimagic field is old, a CR 20. This is where everyone forgets that dragons have a horde of magic items and have no qualms about using them, whether it's to defend there home or attack something. I rarely find a DM who uses them with there Dragon. If it's in there treasure, it's all fair game and no adjustment to the CR for them to use them.
Liwmial 04-25-05, 06:15 PM	Here Here! Brilliant!
Szat 04-25-05, 06:18 PM	Where did the party encounter the Shadow Dragon? Because it's antimagic field is meant for encountering creatures in the underdark. The Shadow Dragon isn't an open plains combatant, you need to abuse terrain, shadow, darkness & ambush tactics to make them terrifying.
WCH 04-25-05, 06:27 PM	"crap"? Sheesh, if only you knew. It is okay though, your snap judgement and rude comment are more telling of your fecal attitude than anything I have posted about my game. Thanks for playing though. :dragon: **** Most people don't let their dragons have max hps, do max breath damage (and can breathe every round), rolled stats with appropriate modifiers, min/max'd feat selections to maximize killing/domination power, nor boost their dragons with multiple classes and a template I would rather not reveal in public (grown people have been known to faint from lesser things - ).Yeah, crap is a fairly accurate description. Sorry there, Pender. If only we knew what? The other details about how overpowered you make them? I can change the statistics for Clerics to make them able to take on entire level 20 parties by the time they're lvl 5, but so what? I could also just say "he has the power of the gods. The gods are angry that you attack him, so they strike you dead" since the gods are a real and ever present force in my campaigns. Why would I not do this? Because it's crap, mainly.
Always-Late 04-25-05, 08:36 PM	You realize you're a complete idiot, right? He said it took 2/3 HP damage in the first round. The question's not about the bleeping dragon, it's about the antimagic field. Sheesh...
Chimaera2000 04-25-05, 08:46 PM	Well, time for a bit of clarification here, since I've realized that I've made a couple of errors in my original post. First things first, a shadow dragon is a Huge creature, and as such is completely covered by the antimagic field. However, the field itself only goes beyond the dragon itself for five feet in certain directions (at the front, back, and left and right sides, respectively), so the PC's items won't be suppressed unless they're in melee in those specific directions. It will, however, be completely protected from spells, and enchanted missiles (like arrows from a magic bow) may simply become normal missiles, depending on your interpretation. I wasn't aware of the dragon's damage reduction going away in the field, since I'd previously assumed that all damage reduction was extraordinary, so that makes it less crippling. In this specific instance, then, it's still a tough fight, but it might be possible depending on the PC's tactics. My main error was assuming that antimagic field radiated outward ten feet from your space, so I was wrong in that repect. However, let's assume that the dragon in question had something like Sudden Widen or a metamagic rod or the like. Now, the antimagic field does radiate outward from its space at least ten feet in all directions. How can the party defeat it short of using normal missiles to kill it while the dragon closes to melee? There may be some conjurations they can use as well, but I'm not terribly familiar with many that would be all that effective in this circumstance. Under this hypothetical situation, then, what could the PC's do?
WCH 04-25-05, 09:08 PM	Hmm, they're lvl 20... maybe the Cleric could cast Miracle, asking for his god to keep the dragon from using AMF. :P
tiercel 04-25-05, 09:52 PM	Just a thought... a dragon losing its DR inside an antimagic field loses virtually nothing. It's DR/magic, which nearly every PC attack will bypass (one of the few possible exceptions is a telekinetic barrage). I have no problem with tweaking dragons to keep PCs on their toes, but I find 1) dragons are Pretty Freaking Nasty all by themselves and 2) it's all too easy to tweak them without Rule Zero. Slap Half-Fiend onto a dragon, and due to its buckets of HD not only will it have piles of spell-like abilities, but also a screaming SR. Have the dragon use a couple of appropriate items from its hoard, and it gets really nasty. I personally enjoyed using a ring of evasion and a ring of chameleon power -- the latter good for stealth, but also for appearing as the opposite color. Nothing like being a red dragon and getting the enemy wizard to waste his first round on an empowered delayed blast fireball (assuming he can break your SR and evasion) because he thinks you're white. (Remember: no save on the illusion until interaction!)
Lord Ian Stark 04-25-05, 10:03 PM	It's DR/magic, which nearly every PC attack will bypass I agree a first level party can easily overcome a DR/Magic if there is a spellcaster in the group. DR/Magic in 3.5 is a joke.
Athryn 04-25-05, 10:30 PM	I think the party's chance of success in this battle largely depends on the party's non-weapon equipment and available buffs. If one of them has better than average AC or strength/dex for level 20, they should be able to hit/dodge enough to outlast the dragon, especially with a cleric's help. The dragon, being clever, would probably try to maneuver one of the PCs into one of the sticking out parts of the AMF, but this would involve taking an AoO, though that's small consolation when dealing with a dragon. Without knowing more about the party, it seems equally likely that they could either outlast it or get torn to pieces.
PenderGrass 04-26-05, 01:01 AM	Yeah, crap is a fairly accurate description. Sorry there, Pender. If only we knew what? The other details about how overpowered you make them? "Overpowered"? Doubtful. They are as powerful as they need to be for what they are. "Crap"? Interesting take. Not very original at all. "If only we knew what?"? If only you knew that there are ways to run a game with things that may seem to be completely 'crap' - but still be one helluva great game. But, most people here seem to need their RPGs spoon-fed to them. You would be one of the people that would get up and walk away after I said - 'House rule #7, 5'-Step never grants total immunity to AoOs.' The whole time you would be saying 'crap, crap, crap' - but you would never truly know. You: 'Raw fish? Bah! That is crap.' Me: 'No, it is sushi - hello?' *stomp* *stomp* *stomp* :dragon: ****