Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Andrewinator 12-18-05, 09:26 PM	Wow. Last session, I had planned for a fight between my 11th-level players and three Abyssal Greater Basilisks (CR 12). I had planted a chest containing, among other things, four Pendants of Stoneskin that also gave a +5 bonus on Fort saves against petrification. However, my players did not come accross this chest. Knowing how screwed they'd be, I reduced the number of Basalisks to 2. However, They still all turned to stone. I really didn't want to start a new campaign. So instead, a sorcerer came along roughly 4000 years later and cast Flesh to Stone in order to remove the petrification effect. This sorcerer, along with his squad, were trying to use the dungeon as a means of getting onto Angarlor. Angarlor was previously the home base of my players, and had a population of only 800 or so. Well, now Angarlor is overrun with orcs equipped with machine guns and Damoclese Warhammers, and it's popuations is more like 500,000. The orcs had taken hostage the previous inhabitants were using them as slavers. The sorcerer who unpetrified my players and his squad were going in on a mission to rescue as many hostages as they could. My players joined them to fight for their old hometown. So... You think I overdid it? Do you think that my campaign is now too weird and odd for the players to have any intrest? Or do you think this is an interesting change in pace?
arkerpay 12-18-05, 09:29 PM	Find a way they can go back in time to the era they started in. Perhaps Dr. Evil has a "Time Machine". Don't let them take any history books!
Darkuwa 12-18-05, 09:33 PM	Drop the machine guns and damocles' and just have it still be normal fantasy stuff. With magic there's no real reason for technological advancement. They can just continue they're adventure 4000 years later. Have them come across history books that mentions people they know, like an inn keeper they knew that became a great hero or something.
Kuronue 12-18-05, 09:35 PM	All the cities are renamed, all the countries are completly different, and the language spoken is now Undercommon so they don't speak the language. Consider: modern day countries with the world of the ancient Greeks and Babylonians. You're talking the difference between now and 2000BC.
stabs 12-18-05, 09:36 PM	I like it. Make sure melee weapons are still workable in case your PCs don't want to update. And make magick rival technology in terms of power so they don't just get blown apart by a plasma tank.
CryoSilver 12-18-05, 09:37 PM	Why would there be no technological advaancements? Doesn't it make sense that those without magic would try to develop ways to match those that do? If a wizard can cast a fireball, the fighters and monks are going to want a rifle to snipe that wizard.
Andrewinator 12-18-05, 09:40 PM	Yeah, melee weapons are still useful. Especially since Damoclese, the major weapons manufacturer, has refined them to harness arcane power. Weapons, like the Force Rifle, are basically spells pact into a barrel with a trigger... except the machine gun, of course.
Always-Late 12-18-05, 09:46 PM	Buy d20 modern, and maybe d20 future. Stock up on guns. Anyway, think about what would happen if you woke up one day, and everyone you ever knew was dead and turned to dust. Try reading the book, "3001: The Final Odyssey," for an interesting take. Oh, yeah, that silver wyrmling in the cave a few miles away? Great silver wyrm, eating his hoard, preparing for twilight. The very last creature in existence that was alive when your PCs were, besides the immortals. Of course, he doesn't know you, but you might get some interesting history out of him. You might find some elf's great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather was some elf you knew in your time. Every nation in existence should have gone major upheaval, going through at least ten wars and maybe a civil war or three. Just about every nation should be dead and gone. They should look for cities and mountains of the old days and find ruins and craters. There should be nations that never existed. Feel free to make elves extinct and make the world ruled by Githyanki. Maybe split the continent into six or seven pieces. Refer to world-shattering events that your PCs have no clue about. Maybe there was an invasion from the Nine Hells or the Abyss. Seriously, 4000 years is a ridiculously long time. Things will happen. Oh... how is their hometown still there? 4000 years, and it hasn't been flooded/burnt/razed/sacked/earthquaked/annihilated yet? 40 or 400 years, I can see a campaign that doesn't break the weirdness scale. This does.
Lord Gwydion 12-18-05, 10:10 PM	Oh... how is their hometown still there? 4000 years, and it hasn't been flooded/burnt/razed/sacked/earthquaked/annihilated yet? You know, there's a war going on right now in some cities that have existed for 4000 years. Egypt and China have both been "Egypt" and "China" for 4000 years. Yes, nations fall. Cities get destroyed by manmade or natural disasters. But often, people just rebuild them on the ruins of the old city, or keep the name of the old nation as the name of the new (or at least preserve the old name as a region name if it becomes part of a larger nation), or if a completely new nation is built, then topples, the third regime might revert back to the old name to foster a feeling of "legitimacy." The new leaders might say, "We used to be Krondhaur 1500 years ago, I will restore it's greatness with a new Krondhaur!" Yes, 4000 years is a rediculously long time. But that doesn't mean that there aren't national or city identities that can't survive that long. Anyway, as for the OP and his question--we here on the boards can't really help you with your question that much. We can all give our opinions about our personal preferences about such a situation, but we're not your players. Just ask them if they think it's a good idea and want to go with it, or if they'd rather find a way back to their own time, or just start a whole new campaign. You'll get a much more relevant answser than anything we can provide.
Loren Pechtel 12-19-05, 12:44 AM	Why would there be no technological advaancements? Doesn't it make sense that those without magic would try to develop ways to match those that do? If a wizard can cast a fireball, the fighters and monks are going to want a rifle to snipe that wizard. As I see it that should have happened long ago. Therefore there's a reason it didn't--and there's no reason for that reason to suddenly disappear. My take on it: The problem stems from the blood war. Modern scientific thinking is very dangerous to them--when it starts to show up they cooperate to a limited degree in stamping it out. Soon the threat lessens and they go back to hunting each other. Thus I picture a technological level oscillating between about 1000 AD and 1500 AD. As for why it's so dangerous--with scientific thought comes true control of magic. This is an utterly different thought process than normal spellcasting--even if a regular spellcaster encounters it they can't understand it. I have an NPC class "book mage". You can only learn it at level 1 and only if you're trained by an appropriate mentor (while there would be schools in time they'll be the prime focus of the infernal attacks, they won't exist long enough to train anyone). All spells are on their list and they cast as a sorcerer. Furthermore as the skill develops they get far better at crafting, among other things finding ways to make items much cheaper and with no xp cost at all. Unchecked they obviously would take over.
Talonz 12-19-05, 01:05 AM	That's a very neat idea to resolve an unfortunate situation. It needn't involve machine guns, or 4,000 years though. 400 would be more interesting, enough to be familiar, but enough to be very very wrong/different as well... It neatly allows you to try different 'outcomes' for your campaign. And avoid timetravel. Really, seriouslly.
Asciiman 12-19-05, 04:29 AM	Yeah, I agree, avoid all time travel. Just choose a number and have it be that far along, although you really don't need it to be 4000 years. Even 40 years is still plenty of time and it allows you to keep the same campaign and ideas. Or maybe it isn't the same world.... it is really up to you and what you are most comfortable with.
cmrscorpio 12-19-05, 04:56 AM	Just because 4,000 years have passed doesn't necessarily mean that there should automatically be a dramatic change in technology. Up until contact with more technologically advanced civilizations, many cultures changed very little in the space of 4,000 years, like the inuits of Alaska, tribes in equatorial Africa, aborigines of Australia. Also, keep in mind that in a world reliant on magic, technology would most likely develope very slowly due to the fact that new technology simply wouldn't be needed. Necessity is the mother of invention. Why go through the hassle of inventing gunpowder when there are spells like fireball, magic missile, and others? I personally believe that most technology would develop at a snail's pace due to the presence of magic. Maybe in your world 4,000 years have passed, but shortly after the PCs got stoned, the world was plunged into a dark age that lasted thousands of years and consequently they've only technologically advanced from the middle ages to an imperial age. And maybe they've had some areas that have had recent dramatic break throughs in only certain areas, which would allow you an easy segue into a steampunk campaign in which technology is now beginning to explode, but many of the old technologies are still hangining on.
Wrong 12-19-05, 05:21 AM	4000 years is too much or not enough ! Wizards are now spontaneous spellcasters and sorcerers have also greatly increased their reactivity ! Perhaps that there are no more sorcerers or wizards, but simply arcanists who combine the better aspects of spontaneous and prepared spellcastings. There's no more non-spellcasting classes, magic is learned at school instead of mathematics, biology and physics. Your players can't be adapted. They will finish in the zoo. You can go for 10000 years or more, the civilization has fell long ago (overpopulation, excessive religion, racism) and now rise again. So your players just have to learn a new language (magic can help) and discover a new world with very (very, very, very) strange rules. Look at the differences between celtic and christian worlds (it's familiar to me as I am french). celtic and most cultures before christian invasions where thinking in different terms. For them ules where based on what is allowed (all is forbidden unless it is allowed, slow but stable evolution). Christian culture is totally different as it is based on what is forbidden (all is allowed until it is forbidden, quick but anarchic evolution). A lot of words just to say I'm agree that 200 to 400 is enough to have a very different world ;)
Morka 12-19-05, 10:20 AM	Perhaps the region knew a technology apogea a century ago, but now due to an atomic war, all that is technology is now dead, leading the world to a new Middle Age???
Illion the Red 12-19-05, 11:29 AM	4000 years is certainly long enough to have several civilizations rise and fall, let alone single nations or cities. I would undoubtedly make dramtic changes in the world - socially, politically, theologically, and topologically. A volcano has erupted, forming a moutain where once there was a lake. Deserts have grown in formerly populated lands. Entire ecologies have changed, resulting in the rise of strange magical beasts, abominations, and magically changed "things." Psionics have become pervasive and dominant. The non-psionically endowed are persecuted, enslaved, and marginalized. In fact, these orcs, are the last of the freedom fighters, struggling to survive in this strange world. And maybe, just maybe, there's a way home. There are rumors of a great crystal that has the power to undo things that have been done. Perhaps with this crystal, the PCs can undo their petrification and return to a world that makes sense again. Of course, this crystal is in the seat of power of the psionic empire...
RogerWilco 12-19-05, 11:56 AM	I like the idea, but would go with 400 years. Then they might encounter the occasional elf or dragon that still remembers their time, and you need not worry so much about tech. I like the story arc very much. And the ideas people have come up with. Have you ever Read the comic "Storm" that might also give some ideas, have the world ruled by Marduk the Theocrat and all kinds of weirdness happen, that scenario might even work with 4000 years.
Koji 12-19-05, 01:42 PM	I would make it so that whatever dreadful fate befell their home was preventable if only they hadn't been petrified. Maybe some time-god takes pity on them and they can undertake some quest to get home. You could include the plane of time variant from the manual of the planes or some other wierd variant to get back home. Specify that it's very dangerous and they should choose between possibly dying but saving their home, or just trying to tough it out in the new world.
jukar 12-19-05, 04:33 PM	Wow, you're getting into Tri-Ace territory here. Have you played any of the CRPG series, Star Ocean? This sounds a like something you might run into in one of those games. The plot of the first game is that on an undeveloped planet, the entire populace of the world is being turned to stone by an alien race that plans on using the petrified citizens as a means of harvesting a race mineral that occurs in their bodies when they are converted to stone. In order to save them, a few survivors from this medieval world end up teaming up with a crew of space naval officers from a Star Trekkish advanced space federation to combat this race, and the survivors and the officers end up bouncing all around the timeline of the planet, making friends of all different kinds and facing everything from arcane spellcasters and dragons to evil aliens and mechanized enemies with guns. That being said, I like this idea, but I would definitely provide a way for your team to get home- in fact, don't be surprised if this suddenly becomes their goal. Just remember that whenever you introduce elements of time travel, be prepared for potential headaches.
Dragon_loving_DM 12-19-05, 05:46 PM	First question, who was controling the baskilis (spelling i know...v_v) since the PC's were quite obviesuly stopped by it's pets went on to contol the world unleshing the 9 hells on earth. It could quite well still be like that and whats really going on the orc's are under the control of the devil and his evil minions. now in order to restor normacily the PC's must either slay the orc's and release them from their suffering or find a way to get them out from under the influence of the devil. once thats done they can go and stop that devil via whatever you deam approite. I know my spelling is bad but I hope you all get the point. as far as the weapons go. I think that it might very well have happend along gunpowder in the span of 4000 years. Lasers... now that I wouldn't allow right now...unless the PCs know about the trick with a pure ruby thats been cut a speical way and placed in a 'gun' like machina with the 'day light' spell permenently places on teh stone right behind the ruby with a focusing glass infront of the ruby so that it's been foucsed greatly.... <_< by the way you might not wanna tell them about that >_>
KismetRose 12-19-05, 06:04 PM	I find it interesting that so many people feel that the presence of magic necessarily slows or entirely stops technological advancement. The way I see it, only some people know how to use magic, and of those who do, only so many are willing to share its benefits. Everyone else has to fend for themselves and must also fend for themselves against the magic users. It makes perfect sense to me that non-magic using folks might want other means of power, and other ways of doing things that have nothing to do with magic.
woodwalker 12-19-05, 06:32 PM	Why would there be no technological advaancements? Doesn't it make sense that those without magic would try to develop ways to match those that do? If a wizard can cast a fireball, the fighters and monks are going to want a rifle to snipe that wizard. this wouldn't happen, because any wizard, sorceror, or cleric wouldn't want the weapons to be able to take them out or fall into thae wrong hands. if their is a revolt, those weapons would be used against them. also, experts and such would not be able to hide the weapons against the wizards, sorcerors, or clerics that they were designed to kill, or designed to kill the minions of.
Milandros 12-19-05, 07:01 PM	You can have fun with this, without feeling that you have to go the technological route. After all, there was very little technological advancement between 40,000 BC and 36,000 BC, or between 20,000 BC and 16,000 BC. Plus a staple of fantasy worlds is that things don't tend to go that way. Tolkein's Middle Earth, by the time of Lord of the Rings, should be at least at the orbital aerospace fighters, faster-than-light warships, plasma rifles and AI battle drone stage if you take the First Age as it's medievel perios then postulate advancement at anything close to the last few thousand years. So, there's been at least one cataclysm in between, probabl;y caused by the players failing to resolve the main BBEG's darstadly plot. Civilisation has regrown back to where it was, except: 1. The evil BBEG the players hated is remembered as the great hero who saved what was left of the world through his bold leadership (winners write the history). 2. The friendly elven city they went to is now a closed city full of elf-supremacists (yes, just as pleasant to the PCs as the KKK is to successful black guys married to their sisters). 3. Their home town is now a haunt of the undead. Including some they recognise. 4. The evil empire they hated has changed almost beyond recognition over the years. It's now the main hope for good on the continent. 5. An inn they stayed at still has the same innkeeper, after all these years. Why? 6. Orcish art and music is renowned the world over. Their noble warrior civilisation, though almost exterminated by elvish jihads, still holds out in a few cities in isolated places. 7. Of course, geography has changed a bit - that forest is now a swamp, the grasslands a desert. Old dungeons have new uses, old cities have become new dungeons. 8. History really doesn't match what the players remember, but there are obviously a couple of turning points that meant things could have been different, if only a bold band of adventurers could have been there. 9. If you really want to have fun, the BBEG is going to return (some idiot ressurects him, or he had some long term plan running). Half the world believes he's a hero, at first. Players know differently. 10. The conclusion of the campaign gives the players a chance to change what happened in the past and avert the cataclysm. 11. When the players are restored to flesh, they're in a noble's art display, labelled as "A set of statues of criminals and traitors fleeing in fear from the forces of justice". :) 11.
larry_the_titan 12-19-05, 07:45 PM	Here is a couple of suggestion to play with, buy D20 modern: Urban Arcana this should give you a lot of ideas into how to bring D&D into modern times. The book doesnt cover all D&D races but they do cover alot of the core races and some of the monster manual. If you pick up the book and use it throw a Living Dumpster their way and see if they metagame or run home crying mommy. On the other hand if you dont want to keep them in the future for to long dont by the book. All you have to do is create some chaos by having the Gods fall (you can probly tell how this could cause trouble) or raising the underdark (this would be loads of fun no matter when it happens) then give them away home so they can try and stop it. Good luck with your games people.
Andrewinator 12-21-05, 12:06 PM	Thanks for all of your input!
Lincoln Hills 12-21-05, 05:16 PM	If you truly feel comfortable with an abruptly high-tech (or mana/tech) campaign from here on out, go ahead with your current plans. Myself, if my PCs were to fall into such a situation I'd awaken them in a post-apocalyptic period. Magic proved to be too much responsibility for mortals, and they reacted with the same good sense that we've seen in regards to nuclear energy. ;) The PCs in this case don't end up like Charlton Heston in the apes' zoo: they're seen as valuable resources because they know lost secrets of magic. Imagine your PCs' cleric learning that everybody else in his religion is long dead... or that the modern priests (and perhaps even their god - D&D gods never claimed to be changeless!) have altered their alignment and ethos somewhat. Suppose the mage is suddenly Mr. Popular because he's the only guy in the world who can still cast 5th-level arcane spells. And the barbarian? Hey, as far as he's concerned the world is finally fixed. (heh) One more note on, er, the "inevitability of high technology": although I deny that the advancement of technology is inevitable (in or out of a magical world), I should point out that PCs in one of my campaigns recently learned that there WAS an industrial age several centuries in their world's past. But it was crushed. Once the greenbonds (think druids) learned what an "Industrial Revolution" involved in terms of damage to their precious nature, they crushed it. And will again, if it happens again.
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 12-21-05, 06:37 PM	Make them live a few adventure in this future, then tell WHY the orc are there. Then make the Pc go back in time to stop the Orc invasion.
Always-Late 12-21-05, 07:07 PM	Just on another note; if you want it to stay more or less same-tech, just look at the differences between 1st age and 3rd age LoTR. The world can still be plenty the same, even if a continent's been lost, the elves are gone, and all the nations are changed. Yeah, completely opposite to my first point, I know. (I've always wanted to stick Maglor into the Third Age just for the heck of it.)
spoogemonkey 12-23-05, 03:40 PM	whoa, dude.... you'd be SEVERAL episodes of the Simpsons behind!
larry_the_titan 12-23-05, 04:44 PM	whoa, dude.... you'd be SEVERAL episodes of the Simpsons behind! I guess you better set your TiVo. :D Sorry I really didnt want to type that but I couldnt stop myself.
Pandaemoni 12-23-05, 04:57 PM	Why would there be no technological advaancements? Doesn't it make sense that those without magic would try to develop ways to match those that do? If a wizard can cast a fireball, the fighters and monks are going to want a rifle to snipe that wizard. It's more likely that they'll want a magic bow with increased accuracy. The question is akin to why did Chinese (or Japanese) technology stagnate in the middle ages to the modern era? They had all the same building blocks the Europeans did (moveable type, paper, gunpowder, etc...all of which Europeans had to get from the Chinese) In part the answer is because they faced few challenges that forced them to be technologically innovative. In Europe, on the other hand, tiny nation was vying against tiny nation the whole time--and the result was rapid technological change. While there might be technological advancement in a magical world, people who are accustomed to relying on magic might not develop their technology as fully as they might have otherwise. Why invent a rifle, when you have magic repeating crossbows? Why not just increase the power of your magical repeating crossbow? Why invent a dangerously explosive steam engine or lay very expensive tracks for a very expensive railroad in a world with teleportation circles? Why develop medicine or molecular biology when clerics can cure just about anything with a waive of their hands? Why develop uses for oil and the develop complex oil refining technology, when you can use spells to do almost anything. Technology is complicated and expensive, and in that special range between its most basic levels (swords and other simple machines) and its advanced levels (steam locomotives and factory equipment) can only accomplish a tiny fraction of what magic can, at a much high cost and less safely. Recall the masses of fingers, hands, arms and lives of men, women and children that were lost in early factories. Recall the masses of black smoke and miasma that hung in the air all over the industrialized towns of England from the 18th century on. The relative paradise we live in today had a very rocky and distasteful start. So, perhaps people would develop technology, but early technological advancement would likely be seen as more of a curiosity than as an actual alternative to magic, underpowered, dirty and dangerous. Most technology that did catch on would likely be "magic assisted" at least for a very long time. In most game worlds, look to the gnomes to be the real innovators, but only because they have a peculiar obsession. [Edit: typos]
The Grand Mystic 12-23-05, 08:02 PM	One option would also to make this 4000+ year world a different universe than the original one. Rather than going back to their own time, the players are trying to get back to their "version" of the Material Plane. Think of the show "Sliders" to get an idea on that one ;)
Pandaemoni 12-23-05, 10:58 PM	One option would also to make this 4000+ year world a different universe than the original one. Rather than going back to their own time, the players are trying to get back to their "version" of the Material Plane. Think of the show "Sliders" to get an idea on that one ;) Why would turning them to stone and back send them to a new Prime Material Plane? In any event, even if you send them back in time later on, there is every chance that their return to the past will so drastically alter the future that it will not matter whether or not they take a history book back with them. Just don't let them take any technological items that will unbalance the game.
Argamoth 12-23-05, 11:04 PM	I agree that sending them back to their own time is a solution. You could also decide on how far technology has progressed and make a new campaign in that world. Don't try and figure out how far the wolrd would really have progressed, just pick a technology level and then justify it, changing history as needed.
SearcherOmega 12-23-05, 11:48 PM	You know, I always found it preposterous that a world with magic would not develop technology. Look, if you will, to the prices of magic items and spell components. These easily jump beyond hundreds of golds, into the thousands, tens of thousands, and hundreds of thousands. One easily forgets just how little people actually make in this world. Let's look at some of the wages these individuals make on a per day basis, shall we? Based on the 'prices for hirling services' chart in the DMG, page 105... Architect / Engineer: 5 sp / day Barrister / Lawyer: 1 gp / day Clerk / Accountant: 4 sp / day Cook: 1 sp / day Entertainer / Performer: 4 sp / day Laborer: 1 sp / day Limner / Artist: 6 sp / day Maid: 1 sp / day... One gets the idea. Then, let us compare this wealth with money needed to... buy food, pay property taxes to the kingdom, etc. According to the Food, Drink, and Lodging section of the PHB (Page 129), the cost for a loaf of bread is 2 cp; roughly 20 percent of a laborer, maid, or cook's earnings. If people actually want real meals, it will cost 1 sp per day for a poor quality set of meals, 3 sp per day for a common quality set of meals, and 5 sp per day for a good quality set of meals. Let's assume this takes 20 percent of their income. Then, we have taxes. Depending on the type of nation one lives in, this could vary dramatically; let us say it's a rather nice 10%. Drop those figures by about a third -- this is what they have to spend on luxury items. Now, let's find out how much a simple wand of prestidigitation costs. 375 gp. Clearly, not a remotely economic means of going about things. Fine. Let's see how much it costs commoner Jill to hire the local wizard apprentice to cast Prestidigitation for her. Level 0 Spell: Caster Level (1) x 5 gp. -- To make her food taste like a high quality meal, she has to spend ten times what it costs to buy a full day's worth of high quality meals. Beyond this, the prices get to preposterous ranges that only adventurers, independently wealthy figures, and governments will be able to afford. Casters will easily establish an aristocracy off their sheer financial force, creating a magically-imposed class separation between those capable of affording luxurious magic and its components, and those unable to do so. This is where technology comes in. While individual wizards (and probably a good number of clerics) will be kind and offer services for massively reduced prices or even for free, it's much more economic to advance technology using simple Newtonian physics. Why pay a caster exorbitant prices to teleport a single group of people to a single location when, using the power of steam and steel, one can create an international railroad spanning the continent, ferrying thousands more people at a fraction of the cost per person that a wizard would? Why train a person for years to arrive at level 9 in wizardry when one can use the sweat and blood of a thousand dedicated commoners to benefit everyone to a much greater degree? Which leaves a few options: either technology is a threat to magic, or technology is a boon to it. In a view where magic and technology are at ends with each other, they might try to find ways to outdo each other. This could lead to an interesting situation; which is better, the wizard who will get you to a location instantly for a good sum of money, or the train which will get you there comperably slower, for a much more affordable sum of it? Are the dangers of a train being derailed and the dangers of a teleportation error comperable? On the other hand, magic and technology could work together. Imagine how much safer a country-spanning train would be with a few abjurations and magical enhancements to its engine. Imagine how much more potent an explosive would be if it could burrow through enemy walls with a Stone Shape spell. The reason technology works in the modern day is because it allows people to get food, running water, and entertainment easily. The only real 'expensive' applications of technology involve major community and/or company related projects, tremendous scientific expeditions, and war. As such, I believe that magic (being inherently expensive) would share a similar role. It costs years worth of money for a single everburning torch, yet it costs fractions of that to pay an annual electricity bill. In short, technology is the poor man's magic.
Kozeljnik 12-24-05, 07:30 AM	A world where technology and magic coexists makes me think of Arcanum: Of Steamworks And Magic Obscura. Basically, magic and technology disturb eachother. powerful mages walking near steam engines for example are subject to spell failure (depending on the size of the engine), while the engine itself starts to work irregularly or breaks down (depending on the mage's level/power) that's the basic thing, really: magic and technology disturb, and eventually destroy eachother. i really want to explain better, but my brain is causing a lesser riters block of sorts, and i didn't get Will save. if anyone can elaborate on this, please do, because i can't at the moment
jagraham 12-24-05, 02:59 PM	Hmm...from all these suggestions, it sounds like you will be playing a different game that the players may not have signed up to play and their characters are not optimized for. (I hate to use the O word.) I recommend consulting the players. If they would like to try futuristic stuff, go for it. If they want to start a new campaign do that. If they want to get back to Kansas, then get them out of it in a way that has ironic fun about being out of the picture for a while. Here are some bits and pieces: - The party have been "masterwork" statues in the garden of a noble's estate for 5 years. - One of the parties enemies has redeemed himself or maybe he's King. - The party's HQ is now a brothel. - The wizards apprentice is now more powerful than he is. Some literary examples of coming back to a changed world: - The climax of the Odessy, when Odyessus returns home after 20 years. - The end of Lord of the Rings in the book "The Scouring of the Shire". - Various bits of Back to the Future I-III - Revenge of the Pink Panther (that has the bit about the brothel).
Tenshinoshi 12-24-05, 04:14 PM	The idea of sending your PC's into the future is interesting to say the least. I don't see why most people think that in a world with magic, technology would fall by the way side. Look at the various "Tales of" games, in dying worlds anchient technology worked with magic, in thriving worlds current technology works with magic. Basicly technology is powered by magic and posibly other means as well but mostly by magic. This is the premace of two artifact airships that will show up in my campaign. They're anchient technology but they are powered by the various types of magic and magic-like things (psionics/incarnum). The idea of sending PC's into a future world with "bizare" weapons sounds like an idea I might borrow for something else or perhaps I could have the ships hold the same "bizare" weapons on board them. But I digress, while some people say that technology dosen't advance that far in 4000 years look at the common era (aka now) between AD 1 and AD 2005 technology has by far advance and just imagine where it will be in 1,996 years.
Jodjod 12-24-05, 05:18 PM	As my old maths teacher put it (frequently, along with snorts of laughter at her witty inuendo): suck it and see. Your players might love the idea, but then again they might hate it. The worst case scenario is that you have to have them wake up and say that their shared-hallucinations was caused by a slightly prolonged petrification mixed with a large number of psionic magic in the area.
larry_the_titan 12-24-05, 11:08 PM	The worst case scenario is that you have to have them wake up and say that their shared-hallucinations was caused by a slightly prolonged petrification mixed with a large number of psionic magic in the area. If my DM pulls that on me again I will not play with the group again. His reason for pulling that was becuase it was the only way he saw to save the group. Which wasnt needed becuase you can always start a new game. The worst part and also what bothered me the most when he pull this he didnt give us any of the EXP that we gained during the entire level worth of Adventuring that we had went on. I am not saying that it isnt a good idea of last resort but dont use it unless you have to and give the party something for what they did even if it wasnt real.
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 12-24-05, 11:20 PM	4000 years later? Couple questions: 1) Where were the petrified bodies of the PC's stored? If they were exposed to any kind of weather they would be well and truly crumbled. If memory serves me (please correct me if it is not) the petrification process turns you into a type of sandstone or limestone substance, not marble or granite. As such exposure to elements would play hell with them. There would be no way they would be intact after 4000 years. 2) Assuming that they were is some sort of super secure, cool, dry place that had NO organic life of any kind (4000 years of even bacterial corrosion can mess up stone pretty well, let alone worms and other such life that turn stone to soil) and no errosion of any kind, why did the sorcerer randomly cast flesh to stone on a bunch of statues in some vault? 3) Most importantly of all: Do you PLAYERS seem ok with the new direction of the game? Because that is the key of any DM is to run a game the players (and themselves) enjoy. If they are happy and excited at the turn of events then great. Go with it. I would suggest looking at the 'Dragon Star' setting if you really want to mix HIGH technology with magic. It is space and magic mixed and has decent rules for all the classes in a space setting as well as bionics and high tech and how to balance/mix it with magic. Oh I assume all the characters have some sorty of 'tongues' item as well? Otherwise it is extremely doubtful they could hope to understand the languages of the day after 4000 years. Sometimes the little details can make the most interesting obsticals to over come.
Kuronue 12-24-05, 11:22 PM	A world where technology and magic coexists makes me think of Arcanum: Of Steamworks And Magic Obscura. Basically, magic and technology disturb eachother. powerful mages walking near steam engines for example are subject to spell failure (depending on the size of the engine), while the engine itself starts to work irregularly or breaks down (depending on the mage's level/power) that's the basic thing, really: magic and technology disturb, and eventually destroy eachother. i really want to explain better, but my brain is causing a lesser riters block of sorts, and i didn't get Will save. if anyone can elaborate on this, please do, because i can't at the moment Why? Why are magic and technology opposed forces? The real world lost a lot of its magic because people could explain things with science where before they just said "it's magic". That doesn't mean it was magic in the first place, nor that science literally got rid of magic. In a world with magic, technology could continue to develop. New spells would be developed to go against nations with technology in war, and heat metal would be more important versus, say, tanks. Various things could work by a combination of a simple spell and technology working together, if it cut costs. et cetera. Technology is not a force like psionics or magic. There's no Detect Technology, no aura of tech.
Kozeljnik 12-26-05, 08:38 AM	Why? Why are magic and technology opposed forces? The real world lost a lot of its magic because people could explain things with science where before they just said "it's magic". That doesn't mean it was magic in the first place, nor that science literally got rid of magic. In a world with magic, technology could continue to develop. New spells would be developed to go against nations with technology in war, and heat metal would be more important versus, say, tanks. Various things could work by a combination of a simple spell and technology working together, if it cut costs. et cetera. Technology is not a force like psionics or magic. There's no Detect Technology, no aura of tech. honestly, i have no idea. then again, i didn't make the game i just posted it as an alternative future world
Herr Masel 12-26-05, 08:52 AM	I haven't read the entire thread but how do they players know it has been four thousand years? The sorcerer who found them wouldn't know, and it is very likely that the entire calander has changed at least once - a person from an ancient civilization finding himself here today would have absolutely no idea of knowing where he even is or how long it has been. Not all people 4000 years ago lived in athens or cairo, he could of been an illiterate farmer from bum-**** zambia. It might be too late for your particular question but having the players find out where they are and how long they have been frozen could be a campaign, hell, if being turned to stone is like being asleep they might as easily be under the impression that they have traveled to another dimension, unless of course the sorcerer explained to them what happened (in whatever common language they could possibly share).
Bane 12-26-05, 03:57 PM	New and improved technologies are generally developed by fairly bright people. Forest Gump didn't invent anything. Benjamin Franklin did. In a standard D&D universe, the bright people study magic. Consider Isaac Newton. Isaac Newton wanted to know why and how objects fell. He invented calculus, just because he needed the math to explain what he was seeing. In D&D, Newton would have cast a couple divination spells, got an answer, and left it at that. No one person is responsible for the current state of technology. If Newton had figured out why and how things fall through magic, he wouldn't have bothered with inventing calculus. And the next bright guy wouldn't have calculus available to him, so he wouldn't be able to figure things out on his own. He'd have to use magic, even if he didn't especially want to for some reason. When the potential inventors don't really have a need for their potential inventions, technology doesn't advance. If the Wright Brothers could cast Fly, there would be no need for their airplane. There's still a need for current airplanes in D&D, but not for the first steps. That's why it's either magic or technology, but not both.
Herr Masel 12-26-05, 07:09 PM	That's a good point but I don't think it likely that every intelligent person with an inclination to learning/inventing would take up magic. Some wouldn't have the means, others the will or interest. Technology would advance MUCH slower if magic existed, because of the reasons you mentioned, but I think someone would eventually come up with it. Engineers would still need physics and maths to build bridges and buildings that won't collapse, biologists (whether spellcasters or not) would eventually become interested with what makes the universe tick on a level that is beyond divination, it is also very possible that the gods would not know about atoms and DNA etc. because just like a wizard does not understand the mollecular construction of his fireball but still can harness its power the gods could have the powers of creation instinctively, of channeling energies and such rather than be able to draw it out and calculate them. In D&D the theology is of a pagan perspective, where the gods have weaknesses as well as strengths. They are like "big brothers" with their own conflicts and victories and failures. This is debatable and I don't remember exactly how it is viewed, but in greek mythology the gods often represent the pathos, the quality each one of them is most associated with is something not that he possesses, but something that he eternally STRIVES for. Thus a god of beauty would strive for beauty, not be marvelous to look at, and a god of valour would represent the desire for valour, not the epitomisation of it. The gods need not be omnipotent and omniscient, they are simply very powerful but not perfect.
Bane 12-26-05, 08:20 PM	I agree, somewhat. Advanced math is not required for construction. The Romans proved that thousands of years ago. They had enough experience with what worked and what didn't that they didn't need complicated formulae to explain why it worked.
yellowdingo 12-26-05, 08:50 PM	So the world has changed. Civilization has burned to the ground and rebuilt. You need to decide whether there is even a Village left, and whether it was importantly located to become a major city (even if its value id from that of the Orcs). In 4000 years, the reason for being anywhere is not going to be the same as why you were there before the baslisk poop hit the shields. Religiosn changed, people who wander about in armer and kill people with swords are criminals, Orc's might even have a better position in social standing if civilization overcame those milennia of race wars and evolved.
feartheinvinceblehamster 12-26-05, 09:28 PM	The world I'm working on has two highly advanced races in it, kobolds(really, really intelligent kobolds whose commoners force eleminister to wear the "dunce" cap) and another. And their at war. So basically it isn't an uncommon sight to see a guy whip out a revolver and another guy draw a vibroblade. Yes, It's wierd. Don't be afraid to make this wierd. And emphasize how little the PCs know about this. Don't call them "machine guns" call them "the orcish sling devices". Oh, and don't be afraid to lay waste to your PCs. Given how much damage a machine gun does, that'll happen pretty fast. Also, just machine guns? Depending on your campaign world, DND is usually set between 900 BC and 1500 AD. That's a minimum year of 4900. that's an additional freakout about the end of the world and technology collapsing. I'd expect these orcs to be in power armor with giant plasma cannons, with the sorcereor riding his interplanetary starship at warp 888 gajillion. Oh, and the PCs won't understand a word of anything. You'd be amazed how much language changes over 4000 years, or less. George Washington, no matter how funny the jibjab of him rapping is, did not go "Yo homies! sup wit da hood freein' an' representin'!" The PCs won't be able to understand the Basic language, let alone the slang.("Basic as a second language, book CCLXIV")
CryoSilver 12-26-05, 09:35 PM	Not every brilliant mind is going to be a spellcaster; many just wouldn't have the "Gift." Going by community numbers, there are thousands, if not millions of ordinary creatures/people per arcane spellcaster, and a bloody lot of them are going to have 18, 19 Intelligence. A magic bow +2 costs 8,000 gp. A gun woild probably cost 500, 600 gp, and could potentially do a lot more damage, once automatics and the like are developed, which would happen faster, because the mean intelligence in the D&D world is greatly increased from the real world, due to races with an average of 14+ Intelligence. The reason D&D doesn't have guns everywhere is because that wouldn't have the same fantasy feel as a Medieval game with magic.
Always-Late 12-26-05, 09:55 PM	I just hold there's some powerful force out there that prevents agricultural, industrial, social revolutions, enlightenments, and reformations from occuring. Somebody up there likes the way things are.
SearcherOmega 12-26-05, 11:55 PM	I have to agree with the comment above, that not every brilliant mind is going to lean towards magic; similarly, not every brilliant mind becomes a scientist in this world. Many become economists, philosophers, tacticians, doctors, engineers. Saying that all remarkably intelligent and analytical minds gravitate towards magic is like saying they all gravitate towards science; there's correlation, but it's certainly not 1:1.
Caine_The_Unholy 12-27-05, 01:12 AM	All their spells should be otudated, and therefore they will seem much more powerful than they are. You didn't overdo it, you just made it mroe fun. If you don't own them, stock up on the d20 Modern products, and go crazy!
jstorrie 12-28-05, 03:56 AM	Perhaps you could set up the future to be so terrible that the PCs would need to find some way to return to their own time and right things. This can be a great way to motivate them to battle some campaign-spanning megavillain; just make it so that this megavillain completed megascheme X a year after the PCs were turned to stone and that allowed him to conquer the world and set up thousands of years of dystopian tyranny and terror. Make sure that the PCs know who he is before they manage to escape back to their own time, and presto! They have an epic quest and a pressing time limit. It also saves you the trouble of having to create complicated new rules for a futuristic campaign, since they'll only be in the future for a session or two before returning to the 'present.'
jasper 12-28-05, 09:42 AM	yeap over did big time. You could allowed for a god call (5%) for each pc. If that fail. Your group has make a decision. Have you bail them out like you did. Or roll up new characters (near their old level) and rescue the old pcs. Then the player gets to decide which pc he going to run for the next adventure.
larry_the_titan 12-28-05, 10:05 AM	New and improved technologies are generally developed by fairly bright people. Forest Gump didn't invent anything. Benjamin Franklin did. In a standard D&D universe, the bright people study magic. Consider Isaac Newton. Isaac Newton wanted to know why and how objects fell. He invented calculus, just because he needed the math to explain what he was seeing. In D&D, Newton would have cast a couple divination spells, got an answer, and left it at that. No one person is responsible for the current state of technology. If Newton had figured out why and how things fall through magic, he wouldn't have bothered with inventing calculus. And the next bright guy wouldn't have calculus available to him, so he wouldn't be able to figure things out on his own. He'd have to use magic, even if he didn't especially want to for some reason. When the potential inventors don't really have a need for their potential inventions, technology doesn't advance. If the Wright Brothers could cast Fly, there would be no need for their airplane. There's still a need for current airplanes in D&D, but not for the first steps. That's why it's either magic or technology, but not both. I have 1 word for you. Gnomes Ihad a debate the same debate with a friend of mine. Personally the only race I can see come up with modern weapon and tools it would be Gnomes. And shortly after that Humans would pickup anything new and start to tinker with it. The only thing that would be different about the new technology would be that it would be power by magic. The thing that this change will make it possible for any player to take any tech back to the past and keep the use of said item. Personally I was trying to make rules for a Gnome weapon called a cap gun but could get it to work just right maybe I will pick it up again.