Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Angelion 08-28-03, 10:42 AM	Alright, I'll explain the situation. One of my players, who is more or less in love with Drow, has asked me several times if he can play a Drider character. It's rather irritating, for he brings the topic up in almost every conversation we have. Now i need your help, this guy refuses to see the bad side. * The game takes place in a civilized world, he would imposible hide himself if he dont go for illusions as spells, the trickery domain as a cleric or just keeps out of the cities, making him very useless. * It's clearly stated that Driders are always Chaotic Evil, and even if he wont be as stupid to attack the party members, his character -will- probably. Driders live to kill, they suck the blood out of people. They are pure evil. If this fella dont get his regular killing of innocent people and stuffs each night and so on, he will go and attack the party members, even if he as a player wants it or not. He will probably be a short lived character. He refuses to listen. What should i do? This guy actually go dreaming about it, you know how it is when you find a great concept you realy want to play? This guy found it, in a Drider.
Darklyte64 08-28-03, 10:59 AM	You have a couple of choices here of course. I'm going to assume that your group is evil (since he's playing a drow) and that this "civilized world" is mostly evil as well. A little more information on your part would also be helpful a) Let him play his drider. Soon as he tries to get within 2 miles of a town or anywhere near road patrols, they will kill him. Even then, make sure you read him the mental description of the driders and this as well: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20011118a remember that not only does everyone hate driders, they hate everyone as well. his PARTY would not have any reason to trust him. I'm sure that your party would end his life for you. PC1: I cast light on a rock and throw it down the hall so we can get a better view of what is coming DM: You hear the clittering of feet on the floor. as your rock tumbles down the hall, you see a large monstrosity. It looks to have the body of a large black widow with the head, torso and arms of a dark elf. You seem to recall hearing of these creatures before Drider: I approch them slowly PC1: I cast fireball at it PC2: I fire my bow PC3: I charge it with my battle axe Drider: But I'm friendly! I'm a good drider! PC1: I cast fireball at it. PC2: I fire my bow. PC3: I charge it with my battle axe. Drider: ... You could just explain to him that this is what would happen. He'll probably get mad anyway when his drider dies. I'm sure you HAVE explained to him the unbalancing effects a drider would play on your campaign. perhaps you should tell him that if he is a good bad dark elf, perhaps he can catch the eye of lolth and she will test him.
keelhaul 08-28-03, 11:05 AM	let him play, his damm monster.... Dont give him any breaks just because he is an endangered species, -and if he playes his drider true to his aligement, sooner or later his party members will kill him. And if not :the city guard will for once do there job right. -And clear the city of its vermin. -And if he wisely refuse to enter populated areas, then let the dandy elfs do the job .. ......in short kill him like any other monster.......
Al-Ashrad 08-28-03, 11:11 AM	Well, you could box his ears a couple of times... hehe. Actually, if this player loves Drow, then why would he want to play a Failed Drow, since that's what Driders are, IIRC. Oh well. Basically, you're going to have to tell him "No". If he wants to play a Drow that's fine. But a Drider? If his playing a Drider throws off your game as much as you say it does, then you do have to set some limits. That's just the way it is. However, if this will be an evil party, then maybe a Drider isn't such a bad thing. The Drider may be nothing mroe than one of the party member's pets (I can't recall right now, but I do think Driders are bit animalistic... please correct me if I'm wrong), which may limit RPing, but that's the exchange I guess. -Al-Ashrad
Oberon_of_Avalon 08-28-03, 11:21 AM	As stated above, let him play his monster. Everyone hates driders, even the drow they came from. Becoming a drider is a curse from Lolth, meaning that you failed and/or angered her. One case is that his family will hunt him down and kill him to rid their noble home of the disgrace his simple existence lays upon them. Another case is that a group of good adventurers will come along and kill the drider to rid the world of its evil. The party members, even if they have a reason to associate with a drider, will not trust him in the least. And at the first minor transgression they kill him in his sleep.
ChaoticGod 08-28-03, 11:51 AM	While the PCs are in a tavern a cat comes up to this guy's PC and rubs against his leg. The cat is a familiar and has just delivered a Bestow Curse spell from enemy X. You secretly roll his save and oops he fails. The 'curse' is that whenever the PC becomes excited: anger, combat, passion, etc he transforms into a humanoid/spider hybrid. Two extra arms, two extra legs, six extra eyes, spiny black fur, any armor is pushed off. He can still speak with a clicky voice and cast spells and even fight but his appearance is horrific. His combat stats don't change. There is nothing beneficial here, this is a curse. Once the excitement has passed the transformation lasts an hour and then he reverts to his normal shape, until excited again. Have a barmaid flirt with him. If he roleplays back then he gets 'excited' soon to be followed by everyone in the tavern! This is to give the PC a taste of how demihuman society will treat such a horror while still giving his PC a chance at redemption.
Angelion 08-28-03, 12:02 PM	Thank you all for your advice. The group is evil, yes. This guy dont realy care what hapends, i guess just that brute force will show him. The party will eventually kill him or something, he will be too much of a burden for them, i belive.
nevick 08-28-03, 12:23 PM	If he insists you can compromise. make him a half drider. one who narrowly escaped the curse. he keeps his humaniod shape, but still have some drider like abilities like poison ETC. He can hide his heratige easier and be kinda accepted in a civilized area. He might have some wierd features too like no hair, and pointed elongated fingers (4 fingers on each hand maybe). slight yellow hued skin that is shiny as spider chitin. he might use makeup and heavy clothing to hide his features. this can be a very cool character concept =P fun for all =P
Ugrimm 08-28-03, 12:37 PM	Its doable - have him buy savage species - its a great book!
wrax 08-28-03, 02:36 PM	DM: You see a Drider comming down the hall, you've faced enough of them so far that you know what one is. Cleric: I cast destruction. Player:What!!! DM: Are you sure you want to do that? Cleric: Your right, I cast blade barrier instead.
gnimish 08-28-03, 02:52 PM	Aw jeez - give the guy a fair shake already! If the rest of the group is willing to let him try it - and you HAVE to ask them in advance to avoid the kind of insta-kill situations listed above - why not? You will need to move the action away from the city, or at least move it to the city's underground (away from the general public). It could prove to be a great opportunity for your player to fulfill his dream, or maybe to discover that the drider really isn't all he thought it would be. Just make sure you use the ECL rules. Savage Species is helpful too, especially if the party is lower level. If you do the punish by insta-kill plan, he'll resent it, and will still bug you for an honest chance to play the drider later (assuming he doesn't just get teed off and quit). Again - make sure you get buy in from the rest of the group on this. You can come up with a way to introduce the character in RP terms that makes it more plausible.
Saurstalk 08-28-03, 02:53 PM	IIRC, the "always" alignment isn't considered absolute by WotC, but nearly absolute. That is, 1 in 1,000,000 driders might not be CE. So, how to play a drider? Obviously, the easiest way is to do so via CE alignment, in the underdark. The drider may belong to a drow family and still feel some sort of allegiance, although he hates his allies . . . and himself for that matter. It would certainly make fun for roleplaying. The drider may also see helping the drow as a way to regain favor with Lolth and be returned to the form of a drow. Or perhaps the drider has more hideous ulterior motives. Perhaps the drider belongs to a sect hellbent on destroying drow (and surfacers alike) and participating in the adventure is a means to an ends. BTW, just because you're CE doesn't mean you're hellbent on destruction. Phauraun Mizzrym of the War of the Spider Queen is a CE drow wizard/archmage. He'll use ya til your no use, but he desires entertainment and allies to protect his own hide. As such, he's even gone out of his way to save an ally when doing so best suited his needs. Note too that Jeggred Baenre, the draegloth, is also CE. He IS hellbent on destruction . . . but equally obeys without question Quenthil and the Matron Mother. So, playing a CE character doesn't mean being completely B/W. Now, if you wanted to play a drider who isn't CE, the above can also apply. What if the drider was an absolute rarity and aligned more toward N or G? There's always Eilistraee. If the drider can't seek redemption in the underdark, and via the drow pantheon, why not follow the suit of various drow, and seek out Eilistraee. Note that this won't make roleplaying any easier. He'll have to prove himself to the group before they accept, as well as to a great many others in the world. And more times that naught, he's going to be met with hostility and have to defend himself - either by words, flight or fight. So, it can be done.
Darklyte64 08-28-03, 04:10 PM	That might be kind of interesting. . . "Barely" escaping the curse. But the question would be, then, can he escape the wraith of lolth and the drow? I'm sure they will be hunting him down.
Saurstalk 08-28-03, 04:16 PM	Originally posted by Darklyte64 That might be kind of interesting. . . "Barely" escaping the curse. But the question would be, then, can he escape the wraith of lolth and the drow? I'm sure they will be hunting him down. I wonder how far the drow would go to hunt a lowly drider.
Angelion 08-28-03, 04:37 PM	This is the information i have collected so far from Plots & Poison, and various D&D sources on drow and our ugly Half-Spider friends, the Driders. Driders are failed drow, or other creatures, that has served Lolth. If i remember right, the 2nd edition monster manual talks about a test which all drow who serve the Spider Queen retake after reaching level 5. If they fail this test, they are turned into Driders. Driders are generally hated by the drow population, and all the other who live in the Underdark. A drider, is not a very social being. It is "Always" Chaotic Evil for a reason. When Lolth curses them, they turn mad. They thirst for blood and death, it is all they are to live for. Driders are not pets to drow, normal drow would not go as low to talk to one. It's to risky, they cannot controll their thirst for blood and death, and they would not want to dissapoint Lolth for being in leuge with one, if they are found to be (by some wierd reason) they will also be turned into one, if not killed. Driders are expelled, they live mostly alone in the Underdark, sometimes they gather in groups and attacks bigger targets, but they generally dont get along very well. A drow would not hunt them across the world like a Githyanki would if someone took a Greater Silver Sword, but they kill them on sight and probably hunt them away from the cities. Now, i dont think the party members will attack it, if it proves friendly. Question is if he can controll himself to not kill them once he gets an opertunity. He does what pleases him and what serves his needs. I dont think i would have a problem leting him play it, but he will probably be dissapointed, and blame me for bad DM'ing when i have to give him the bad news that he attacks one of the party members because he ignored his needs as a Drider. In short, i doubt his ability to RP it, but we will have to see. Gaming session tomorow, if he comes i will see, and i will keep posting and see how it goes... if not tomorow, i will probably be up with the topic in a week or two. (The information above does not have to be correct, it's just what i have understood so far. Please correct me if you can)
Saurstalk 08-28-03, 05:09 PM	Some thoughts for playing a drider: 1. Madness. Good point. But madness can take many definitions. While many may take the stereotypical route, others might become lawful, paranoid, dysthymic, etc. However, I suppose that your resources describe what this madness entails. Still, I've heard that drow aren't only evil because of societal structures and so forth, but rather, it's because they're "hard-wired" to be evil. If so, how to account for the drow who aren't? They exist and they are growing in numbers. One thing to consider is that initial descriptions of creatures give us a base idea of how to play them. However, to dig a little beneath the surface will allow us to devise a little more complexity. Take the Dungeon 100 and Dragon 309 stuff on the githyanki, for instance. I.e., it needn't be to an unplayable extreme. 2. Will SV. Let's assume the drider is CE. Shouldn't be too hard to insert into an evil group, assuming certain controls are in place. (Non-evil groups will certainly have problems w/ CE driders!) Namely, if the vile madness applies, then, the question raised is whether a drider CAN control himself to belong within a group. Here's a good proposal drawn from Dragon 288, p.100 for Bhaalspawn: Various Bhaalspawn penalties are received over the course of character development. Some of these could fit for a drider. Likewise, you may rule that some are naturally "given" upon character creation, while others are received during leveling up. I've "*"'d those that look reasonable, given your conclusions, as "givens" upon character creation. a. Battle Recklessness: When reduced to less than half hit points, becomes reckless in combat. -1 on Attacks and AC until it recovers more than half hit points. b. Blood Thirsty: Will SV (20) to cause subdual damage, failure results in normal damage. If fighting more that one foe and with multiple attacks, Will SV (20), with failure resulting in having to attack more than one foe. c. Charisma Loss: -2 Cha d. Infernal Temper: Forced to live with a rage that is barely held in check. Failure by 5+ at any skill check, etc. results in Will SV (DC10 + amt check failed by), failure = loud, verbal outbursts and -1 on all checks until passing a check by more that 5. e. Murderer*: Urge to kill. Once every thirteen days, must kill a non-hostile NPC w/ an Int of 3+. Failure to do so results in 1 pt Wis damage daily until murders a non-hostile. Cannot be reduced to less that 3 Wis, cannot be healed. Murder automatically returns Wis back to normal. f. Nightmares*: DC10 +1/day nightmares resisted. Failure indicates being plagued by nightmares until the next day's rest. Roll d4 for results: (1) -1 to Attack, (2) -1 to all Saving Throws, (3) Rest heals no damage, (4) The being has faced its personal demons and awakens unscathed. g. Wisdom Loss: -2 Wis Bhaalspawn information retrieved from Dragon Magazine, p. 100, Issue 288 (Oct. 2001, Wizards of the Coast).
The_Dark_One 08-28-03, 05:29 PM	Now, if you wanted to play a drider who isn't CE, the above can also apply. Perhaps the character's softheartedness is what caused him to failLolth's test to begin with? Going the evil route, he could be a Drow who resents the rule of the women, taking this to the point of hating the female diety of his race. Thus, when his goddess learned that he hated her, she punished him with the drider transformation. To solve the problem of other pople's reaction, give him this unique magic item (and charge him out of the resources a character of his level recieves;) ).: The Mask of Shame: Created thousands of years ago by a drider to hide his condition from the surface world he was bansihed to, the Mask of Shame conceals the Drider's evil from prying eyes (I think adding the function of a Ring of Mind Shielding would do the trick) and allowing him to assume a less loathsome form (A version of alter self-use activated tht allows the character to assume the form of a centaur-it allows the removal of more than the allowed number of limbs, but only allows one specific form-this form is basica;;y what the DRider would look like if he were born a centaur). Then add the "centaur" to the party. By the time they learn what he is, the may very well like him enough to accept him as a Drider.:D
Saurstalk 08-28-03, 06:46 PM	Originally posted by The_Dark_One Perhaps the character's softheartedness is what caused him to failLolth's test to begin with? Going the evil route, he could be a Drow who resents the rule of the women, taking this to the point of hating the female diety of his race. Thus, when his goddess learned that he hated her, she punished him with the drider transformation. To solve the problem of other pople's reaction, give him this unique magic item (and charge him out of the resources a character of his level recieves;) ).: The Mask of Shame: Created thousands of years ago by a drider to hide his condition from the surface world he was bansihed to, the Mask of Shame conceals the Drider's evil from prying eyes (I think adding the function of a Ring of Mind Shielding would do the trick) and allowing him to assume a less loathsome form (A version of alter self-use activated tht allows the character to assume the form of a centaur-it allows the removal of more than the allowed number of limbs, but only allows one specific form-this form is basica;;y what the DRider would look like if he were born a centaur). Then add the "centaur" to the party. By the time they learn what he is, the may very well like him enough to accept him as a Drider.:D Dark One, you're much too nice. I'd simply have him roleplay the drider as a drider, evil or not. Eventually, he might come across a mask of Alter Self or something to hide his true appearance, but until then, he's going to have to watch himself. One way to "seamlessly" integrate his character into the group would be to simply build his inclusion into the group's history. Perhaps he's already proven himself to them. That way, at least during dungeon crawls, it'll be much easier for the group to work together. However, city adventures and encounters with various no-hostile NPCs would have to be played out delicately. Likewise, anyone seeing beyond the mask of alter self may raise some interesting roleplaying challenges for the player. The one thing I'd refrain from doing is make the drider seem "welcome" in the campaign setting. The group's one thing, the inhabitants of a world are another. (For even Alustriel refused Drizz't admission into Silverymoon despite her "knowing" of his good nature.) Still, there might be opportunities where being a drider has merit. Think if the group crosses paths with other driders or underdark inhabitants. Below is an example where questionable characters' races actually helped, or at least did not constrict gameplay too much: In a campaign I'm running, a player has been playing two tieflings. The tieflings almost completely resembled drow, except for fangs, black irises and small rows of horns running along their crowns. (Think Grazz't, except with "normal" legs and feet and no tail.) Generally, they were mistaken for drow, which did little good. Upon being mistaken, they'd usually show their true natures (CN and CG characters), which was still met with disdain, but perhaps of a less hostile nature. That is, though unknown to them, they traversed various areas where tieflings were not unheard of. In one area, they were confronted by a city's mage, a Red Wizard, who knew some of their history (though they knew nothing of him); then in another area, they were actually "recruited" to aid a family of drow following Eilistraee (the family saw their appearance as an asset); in another town, an old friend of one of their mother's (a Harper) spoke on behalf of the tieflings when their motivations were in question; and most amazingly, they were well received in an isolated hamlet, that turned out to be ruled by a malevolent tiefling working for the Zhents. (This last was drawn from The Standing Stone.) Finally, the fact that they run with a LG human paladin of Heironeous and a NG elven cleric of Angharradh help.
Angelion 08-29-03, 01:49 AM	The drow arn't -that- stupid to draw Lolths wrath for helping a indifiler. I'm kind of strict with rules about races, has always been. Cant help it. I dont want to make any exceptions to make him "the non ultra evil Drider" or the "Non mad Drider", or any other exception that will make him more or less superior over the rest. If he wants to play a Drow Drider, he has his +4 to ECL. He has his weaknesses, and if he cant play it right, he will die. He will need people to kill, he will attract adventurers, paladins, people will eventually see a Arachnid looking creature crawling around on a dark street, or they will notice people being kidnapped at night (for the Driders need) It came to my mind during my resting in the etheral world, that the bigest problem will probably be the group. Two of them have already killed a halfling party member, just to get the magical items he grabed with greed. They will probably find out, how much trouble a Drider party member will be. They have a base under a house in the city, they are not always there, and if they dont bring their Drider on adventure, I am quite afraid he will be left there... dead. The wizard has a fay creature in the house, which he respects a lot (Even if he's Neutral Evil). He would not leave thoose two in the same house. It is very complicated all of this, i hope he will come to his minds once he start walking into the town with his half-spider body (If he's -that- dumb)
D.A.Dervish 09-02-03, 03:13 PM	Seriously, how do you think we would ever let a spiderling into our sweet lair? It would totaly ruin our reputation if it came out that we stored a freaking drider in our home! Not that it would be any better if the community learned some of the things happening down there (slaying of defenseless prostitutes, torture, animation of skeletons, etc). And I did not kill that halfling for his stuff, it was purely because he threatened my position as the parties speaker. I held no personal grudge with the character and I can't really say I enjoyed the killing (ok, a little, then). To the point: We have been discussing this a bit and I think that the poor player should be allowed to play his drider. Due to his general attitude towards role-playing/roll-playing he won't misuse the driders "power" to min-/max a character. Just allow it and see how he manages (not a really evil grin) Over and Out /Dervish
Pongolyn 09-02-03, 04:28 PM	What gets me most about monstrous characters is that a lot of people don't realize how poorly they work in a vanilla campaign setting dominated by non-monstrous humanoids. I've had my hands full dealing with the lone duergar in the party getting tossed out of smithies and bars; I can't imagine running a coherent adventure in human lands with a drider in the party without constant opposition from the guards and torch-bearing mobs yelling, "The monster must be destroyed!" I think monstrous campaigns work best when everyone in the party is of a similar race...perhaps all kobolds or a party of rogue drow and driders, and preferably in settings where racial tension is at a manageable level. Things just don't work out nearly as well when the pixie, the drider, the half-red dragon and the aasimar are all sitting at the bar in the human city and expecting the NPCs to do nothing more extreme than stare (and furthermore, they don't act like it's odd that they decided to form a party). If you have only one person playing a monstrous character, then it gets worse, because that one character can steal the spotlight and really hold up gameplay even if everyone's being careful. Even mundane happenings like staying at an inn or buying equipment (things that a lot of people like to glaze over to save time and devote roleplaying to more dramatic encounters) more suddenly become big fiascos if the humans are toting a drider around. And after a few short encounters of "we don't serve your kind here," the rest of the party can get really bored waiting for the drider to convince the barkeep that his money is good and that he means no harm. Monstrous characters can certainly work with many different campaigns, I just think that the campaign setting should be tailored with monstrous PCs in mind ("hey, I've got this idea for an Underdark campaign, does anyone want to play a svirfneblin or a drow?"), and not because someone just wanted to play a drider this time around...if they aren't handled with care, they can really unbalance the game even (especially) outside of combat. Pongo