Post/Author/DateTime	Post
drdobson 12-15-06, 08:37 PM	I'm running the Savage Tide Adventure Path from Dungeon Magazine. We finished last week with everybody leveling up to 6, which gives them a feat. One of my players, a druid, found a feat from a Forgotten Realms book, "Lost Empires of Faerun" that he wants to use called "Greenbound Summoning," which allows him to summon nature's ally with the greenbound template. I'm a first time DM, and don't really know much about Forgotten Realms/Ebberon and how compatible their material is with standard Greyhawk. To me, the feat almost sounds like it's too good. I want to reward my player for trying to make his character unique, but I don't want to stack the party. Below is the description of the greenbound template. What do you guys think? Is this too powerful a creature for him to summon at will? "Greenbound Creature" is an acquired template that can be added to any animal, fey, giant, humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or vermin (herafter referred to as the base creature). A greenbound creature uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities expect as noted here: Size and Type: The creatures type changes to plant with the appropriate augmented subtype. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, base saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged. Hit Dice: change all current Hit Dice to d8's. Armor Class: A greenbound creature's natural armor bonus improves by 6 over that of the base creature. Attack: A greenbound creature retains all the attacks of the base creature and also gains a slam attack if it didn't have one. Idf the base creature can use weapons, the greenbound creature retains this ability. A greenbound creature fighting without weapons uses either its slam attack or its primary natural weapon (if it has any). A greenbound creature armed with a weapon uses either its slam attack or a weapon, as it desires. Full Attack: A greenbound creature has a slam attack. If the base creature does not have this attack form, use the appropriate damage value from the table below according to the greenbound creature's size. A creature that has other kinds of natural weapons retains its old damage or uses the appropriate, value from the table below. Size______________Base Damage Fine-------------------1 Diminutive-------------1d2 Tiny-------------------1d3 Small------------------1d4 Medium----------------1d6 Large------------------1d8 Huge------------------2d6 Gargantuan------------2d8 Colossal---------------4d6 Special Attacks: A greenbound creature retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below: Spell-Like Abilities: At will--entangle, pass without trace, speak with plants; 1/day--wall of thorns. Caster level equals greenbound creature's character level; save DC 10 + spell level + greenbound creature's Charisma modifier. Special Qualities: A greenbound creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those descripted below: Damage Reduction (Ex): A greenbound creature has damage reduction 10/magic and slashing. A greenbound creature's natural weapon are threated as magical weapon for the purpose of overcomeing damage reduction. Fast Healing (Ex): A greenbound creature heals 3 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, It is slain. Grapple Bonus (Ex): The thorny hooks on a greenbound creature's hand and feets grant it a +4 bonus on grapple checks. Resistance to Cold and Electicity (Ex): A greenbound creature gains resistance 10 to cold and electicity. Tremorsense (Ex): Greenbound creatures can automatically sense the location of anything within 60 feet that is in contact with the ground. Abilities: Incrase from the Base creature as following: Str +6, Dex +2, Con +4, Cha +4. Skills: *A greenbound creature gains a +16 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks made in forested areas. Enhvironment: Any forests. Organizitation: Same as the base creature. Challange Rating: Same as the base creature +2.
shadowfox628 12-15-06, 09:03 PM	Forgotten Realms and Eberron are, simply, sub-sections of D&D, with Greyhawk being standard D&D. Forgotten Realms and Eberron require the D&D books (core at minimum) to function properly (races, classes, etc.), but also add more things that fit the feel of the sub-universe (new races, weapons, classes, etc.). Really, it's your choice to allow it or not. I really don't use the Monster Manual (there's one PC in all of my campaigns who has essentially memorized the MM... also, I don't want to hear about how I don't use the MM...), so I can't exactly say it's generally OK to allow or would end up overpowering the Nature's Ally summons. In any case, make sure the Druid has the prerequisites for it.
Neutronium_Dragon 12-15-06, 09:19 PM	I'd be okay with it. It only applies to animals, and some of the benefits are liable to be redundant (it's a rare combat-worthy animal that doesn't already have as good or better a natural attack routine than the slam, and +4 Cha isn't going to make any particular difference for an animal in combat). Most of the rest is defensive stuff, which means that your summons are sturdier, but in the end their combat power is going to pale next to what other spells can do.
goldjas 12-15-06, 09:35 PM	This feat, stacked with Augmented summoning, will make your druids summoned monsters have +10 strength, and a whole bunch of con as well. Greenbound summoning is the best feat for a "summoning druid" to take, in fact, it is so good, some people do consider it overpowered and thus bann it. To me though, it doesn't seem ban worthy. I could see it being nerf worthy though, depending on how powerful the other PCs in your group are. Especially if the Druid abuses it (and I know there are ways to abuse it). What I would do is let your player take it, but with the knowledge and the acceptance that you may have to nerf/downgrade it if the feat is making him better then all the other characters. If you do end up having to nerf/downgrade it, I wouldn't be overly harsh on it, the +6 strength is probably the main thing you may want to lower.
psionichamster 12-15-06, 10:29 PM	your biggest headache if you allow this is that your druid will be summoning all kinds of planty type critters. who are immune to so many many things. and have entangle at will. now, the save dc is 11+cha mod, but that's not too shabby, especially when the druid can summon 1d4+1 greenbound wolves, possibly having 6 spell casting actions/rd (summons use their spell likes, druid casts his spells), and an attack action (via the animal companion) is the party gonna like that? i know it got to be a pain with my past parties and their thralls, cohorts, animals, and mounts...but to each their own. also: wall of thorns 1/day /summoned creature? that's pretty buff. but, consider that he's NOT getting natural spell at this lvl, and thus cannot cast while shaped, and each summon is a full round action to cast, (also not getting rapid summoning, i see). overall, not gonna break your game, and with the STAP setting up to be a bad-arsed campaign anyways, i'd say let them have their cake. btw, are they at the sargasso? if so, the plant summoning/controlling druid is gonna flip! -the hamster
fatal error 12-15-06, 11:52 PM	I'd be wary. Summons are a pain for everyone already, these get mass battlefield control spells. Plus the template is +2 to CR, Summon Nature's Ally III gives creatures up to CR 3. He's effectively boosting his Summon Nature's Ally spell to V rather than III. Given the supreme utility and all-around usefulness of Summon spells in most any combat situation, it could easily be seen as letting him cast half his spell-list as if he were 4 levels higher. Plus, I've read too many horror stories about this feat. But, it's your call.
TalinXT 12-16-06, 01:45 AM	Well since you're a new DM I'd say no. you simply don't have the knowledge adn capability of countering waht this guy can throw from other sources yet. It will all come in time with expirience but for now stick to waht you know and keep your pc's within those limits. It'll turn out best for all.
Kiirdon_of_Aundair 12-16-06, 02:02 AM	I fail to see where the problem lies. I, as a DM, have never had a problem with overpowered PC's. In fact, I've encouraged it. The point of D&D is to make sure that all parties(using that term loosely) have fun. Now what's wrong with a Druid that can summon creatures too powerful? You drop a few CR's, increase the power level, and make the creatures herbivores! Also, you can have an NPC with a high reflex(entangle), a method to take care of Wall of Thorns(High Strength, A lot of Armor etc.) and a flaming sword. A monk with a kama(or two), a Barbarian with a Greataxe, A Hexblade with two Bastard swords(my favorite), a samurai with his katana, a Warblade with The blade of the Last Citadel(Book of 9 swords), a Paladin with a Longsword(very effective) etc. etc all are effective tools for defeating it, IF you want to, and only ocassionally.
cog_n_taz 12-16-06, 04:35 AM	allow, dominate plants.
Iry 12-16-06, 04:54 AM	Greenbound Summoning is a stacked feat that gets the majority of its benefit in the earliest of levels. What this feat actually lacks is a requirement that limits it from being quite early in the campaign. You're going to get a series of plant-type creatures who are resistant to a wide variety of effects and utilize their own spell-like effects to wonderful efficiency for a few rounds. Then, as he gets higher in level and realizes that elementals are outperforming his Greenbound Summons and that some of the Animals he could summon + Animal Growth or a single extra buff or two are also completely outperforming his Greenbound Summons he may end up hardly using the feat at all. If you're overly worried about the feat being too disruptive early in your game just remove the Spell-Like abilities. The early game benefits are quite potent for summons on a statistical level, and you can always let him have the Spell-Likes back a little later when his Animal and Elemental summons start completely showing up his plants. But in EITHER case, make sure there's a good thematic reason for him to want to summon lots of plants :P
strenoth 12-16-06, 05:02 AM	Oh, and don't forget, the SLA the summon creature uses? they stop working the moment the creature goes away, either through duration or being killed. So if your greenbound summoned creature gets killed whiel ihas another creature entangled, that other creature is no longer entangled. ONe of the weaknesses of summons.
Escef 12-16-06, 10:49 AM	Creatures gain +3 to hit and damage, a net bonus of +7 to AC, +2 hp/HD, SLAs, fast healing, and a couple of other goodies. This is too much, IMO. It would be way too easy to set up a virtual wall of defenders that will prove difficult for most opponents to quickly defeat or get around, leaving casters free to unleash all sorts of havoc with near impuntity. Unless this feat forces a spell to use a higher level slot, I'd say no.
krichaiushii 12-16-06, 11:13 AM	Remind him that anything the PCs can do, so too can the NPCs. Some groups use this as a gentleman's rule and thereby avoid lots of rules-legal, but game-breaking, characters and situations. It is unlikely that the AP in question features a Druid with this specific feat as an enemy, but there is no rule stating that you can't alter or add encounters to ensure such a Druid does appear. So change to your heart's content. Alternatively, talk to the player and explain your unease with the feat, and state that you are willing to let it in on a trial basis, but if it gets too much for your abilities to handle, he will have to find a different feat.
scott644 12-16-06, 11:48 AM	Here's a question I've not seen asked yet. How are you ruling on PC's obtaining feats? Are they restricted to Core? Restricted to Core, plus anything else (subject to DM approval)? How? That helps set the power level straightaway, before we consider whether this one character compares with the rest. Meanwhile, in a Core game, it's clearly: 1. Overpowered. Consider what benefits a second-tier Core feat (Augment Summoning) gives, and compare. 2. Disruptive. Note the above comments regarding multiple summoned creatures, each with significant battlefield control SLA's plus defensive capabilities making them hard to overcome.
drdobson 12-16-06, 12:03 PM	btw, are they at the sargasso? if so, the plant summoning/controlling druid is gonna flip! -the hamster They will get there either this week or possibly the week after. Should be interesting.
Kradlo 12-16-06, 12:10 PM	As GM, you're under no obligation to bring in any material with which you're unfamiliar. In fact, you're almost obligated to deny the new material until you know it well enough to properly incorporate it. Overall, I find the feat excessively powerful, so I'd advise against it. But you're running the game, so the choice is yours. This feat is specific to the Forgotten Realms. The text reads, "You are learned in a long-forgotten manner of summoning once practiced by the Eaerlanni elves of the High Forest." Unless you have such in your campaign, or an adapted equivalent, the feat won't exist. If you do choose to allow it, make sure he has the full text of the template added to his creatures - let him do the work, not make more work for you. Make sure you understand that his creatures are now plants, and have some encounters where that may work against him.
RadicalTaoist 12-16-06, 12:18 PM	The vast majority of my Character Optimization Board regular friends who I know are also DMs have banned this feat in their games, regardless of campaign setting. I leave you all at that.
Muspelheim 12-16-06, 12:48 PM	Personally, I think it's way too good, especially at the earlier levels. Normally, meleeists at least have the very low levels to shine, but Greenbound creatures are, at low levels (possible at mid-levels as well, depending on how optimized your party is), just waaay stronger than any melee type, not to mention their nifty SLAs. Sure, if you kill the summons, the SLA effects dissappear. But really, if the monsters are attacking your summons in the first place, you are probably pretty happy ... Especially with the greenbound creature's damage reduction ... At lowish levels, it's not easy to penetrate that for many monsters of an appropriate CR. Of course, it really depends on the group as a whole. If you are going for a very high-power campaign where everyone squeezes every last bit of power out of every character level and feat choice, it should be no biggie. If you are playing in a non-optimized game (where people play straight fighters which aren't spiked chain/robilar/karmic strike AoO machines, say) or even a somewhat optimized game, then this feat is probably too strong, especially considering the strenght of the druid class itself. Also, you might want to compare the effects of Greenbound Summoning to other similar feats like Augment Summoning and Ashbound. While this is not always a good method because feats can be very weak, in this case the difference between the feats in question is just too great (though two feats for +4 STR and CON to your summons can hardly be said to be all that strong ...).
tiercel 12-16-06, 04:18 PM	Just say no. Seriously. This template is way, way, way too good to apply to summoned monsters without applying a spell level adjustment at all. Let's sum up some of the salient points-- Offensively: +6 Str means better attacks, damage, grappling All natural weapons automatically break DR/magic -- this is pretty huge, since normally summons don't At-will entangle and wall of thorns 1/day/summoned creature (seriously, what?! total battlefield control, for free?) Defensively: +6 natural armor (shoring up normally-weak summon AC) +2 Dex, +4 Con (better AC, Ref saves, Fort saves, substantially more hp) DR 10/magic+slashing (not only a high DR value, but one that is not trivial to break) Fast healing 3 (means if you aren't breaking DR, your damage is going away) This is hardly everything, but this will get the discussion started. For the cost of this feat, every affected summon will get something like the equivalent of free bear's endurance, bull's strength+greater magic fang, high-caster-level barkskin, healing between vigor and greater vigor, and a DR type that can't be replicated by a spell easily. It allows at-will use of one of the better 1st-level spells in the game and free use of a 5th level spell once per summoned creature. And that doesn't even get into the energy resistances, tremorsense, idiotically high skill stealth bonuses, etc. The effect of this feat is, I think, quite arguably more powerful than allowing a free animal growth effect on every affected summon. I think that free animal growth is too good for a feat that doesn't even change the spell level, much less the Monty Haul giveaway that Greenbound allows. Druid is already one of the mechanically strongest classes (including prestige classes) you can play. It doesn't need the *added* help of this feat, really. Also, you are not really going to hurt your player's druid much by saying no anyway -- he'll just take Natural Spell like every other 6th level druid in existence (and while Natural Spell is quite arguably unbalanced, I don't think it holds a candle to allowing the already quite-good druid summon lists to become Super Nature God Avenger Summons for free once the feat is taken).
Matthew77 12-16-06, 09:33 PM	I fail to see where the problem lies. I, as a DM, have never had a problem with overpowered PC's. In fact, I've encouraged it. The point of D&D is to make sure that all parties(using that term loosely) have fun. Now what's wrong with a Druid that can summon creatures too powerful? The problem is when one player's summoned creatures are better than another player's entire character. Why would this Druid ever bother adventuring with a Melee type? How is it fun to play a Fighter in this party? The problem is not the power of the party vs the monsters, the problem is when one party member completely outshines the others.
cog_n_taz 12-17-06, 05:16 AM	I stand by what was said. First, make sure he has a good reason for wanting a vegetable army. Then, either disallow it or allow it and have NPCs also use it/cast various anti-plant stuff.
scott644 12-17-06, 08:40 AM	I stand by what was said. First, make sure he has a good reason for wanting a vegetable army. Then, either disallow it or allow it and have NPCs also use it/cast various anti-plant stuff. I can see it now - the invasion of the Broccaliens! Anybody got D20 stats for the Power-Puff Girls lying around? :invasion:
Elemental 12-17-06, 09:38 AM	allow, dominate plants. Except that plants are immune to mind-affecting effects. My advice--disallow it if you want to, and don't feel guilty about it. It's your campaign. However, if you feel comfortable doing so, allow the feat provisionally, to see how it works out. But if you do that, make it plain that the character will be required to choose a new feat (with no arguing) if you think the effects of this one are proving unbalancing or are making other party members redundant. That gives you a way out if it proves game-breaking, and will hopefully discourage any cheap tricks.
cog_n_taz 12-17-06, 09:49 AM	awright, here's a list of counters: Antiplant shell, command plants, control plants, detect animals/plants (not that good, just keep it in mind), diminish plants, plant growth(once they're on your side), transport via plants (one tank and one by the druid? Simple! Cast, walk in, pop up by druid, *stab*) and that's just the SRD. I believe my post is atleast relevant, though if you disagree, that's fine, ofcourse.
fatal error 12-17-06, 10:26 AM	I fail to see where the problem lies. I, as a DM, have never had a problem with overpowered PC's. In fact, I've encouraged it. The point of D&D is to make sure that all parties(using that term loosely) have fun. Now what's wrong with a Druid that can summon creatures too powerful? You drop a few CR's, increase the power level, and make the creatures herbivores! Yea, except then you're balancing encounters for the druid, not the party. This means that not only does the druid inevitably steal the show, the other party members may be more likely to die just because the CRs are higher to keep up with the druid. A DM can easily adjust to any Party Power Level, adjusting to an imbalance within the party, that's much more difficult. Also, you can have an NPC with a high reflex(entangle), a method to take care of Wall of Thorns(High Strength, A lot of Armor etc.) and a flaming sword. A monk with a kama(or two), a Barbarian with a Greataxe, A Hexblade with two Bastard swords(my favorite), a samurai with his katana, a Warblade with The blade of the Last Citadel(Book of 9 swords), a Paladin with a Longsword(very effective) etc. etc all are effective tools for defeating it, IF you want to, and only ocassionally. Summoning multiple creatures a combat will slow things down quite a bit by itself. Massive battlefield control spells do this even more. The majority of battles are going to just plain be slower than if the druid had a different feat. Well, assuming he wrote down his wild shape forms if he took Natural Spell.
mephistophelesatefaust 12-17-06, 04:08 PM	As a DM, I've always allowed this feat, and pointed it out to players who hadn't heard of it. I've also taken the flavour text very literally, and forced players who want it to track it down first, digging through colossal amounts of ancient lore, or delve deep into dangerous dungeons (whoohoo! alliteration!) to gain access to this feat. Additionally, players know that they are helping the druid to gain this feat, so if the majority of any given party doesn't want to deal with it (metagame, which, in this case, is a valid argument) , they can perform a sort of 'party veto.' Eh, in the vernacular of these forums: my two cp.
Necrosis 12-17-06, 06:05 PM	apologies if this has been suggestted already, I started skim readign all the posts. Heres a simpel fix if hte druid wants to make himself nice and unique its a tempalte that adds CR+2 therefore to keep it balanced, when the template is applied to a summon natures ally, the summon natures ally is one spell level lower than it normally would be. e.g. a summon nautes ally 4 becomes summon natures ally 3+green bound. This nerfs the greenbound, so you may want to allow it to apply to other tihngs as well so at higher levels its still usable-the high AC/damage reduction is quite useful.
drdobson 12-19-06, 10:29 AM	Update: We had our session last night, and I allowed the feat with a few modifications. I got rid of the damage reduction, fast healing, and all spell-like abilities on the summoned creatures, leaving everything else as is. This trimmed the feat down to a workable level. Plus, with a few AP tweaks, going greenbound may present problems during certain encounters. ;) Thanks for the advice all!
cog_n_taz 12-20-06, 10:29 PM	No problem, glad it worked out:)