a familiar gaining class levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

a familiar gaining class levels? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
xpochian
09-29-06, 07:20 PM ahoy hoy.

in my on-again off-again campaign, balanced against lectures and tutorials, my girlfriend who plays the mid level warlock asked me something that, frankly, i couldn't answer as a DM.

she wants to know if her familiar can gain class levels. she's a warlock who's taken the obtain familiar feat from complete arcane and has chosen a tiny black cat as her faithful companion. his only 'good' scores are dexterity 15, and wisdom 12 - being standard for the typical cat familiar. using these scores he'd most likely gain a class in warlock, rogue or something else that isn't language or ability score dependant; assuming i allowed it.

i'm not 100% against this, but i'm also not overly for it either. does anyone have a take on it, or any ideas as to what the official ruling would be?
Minister_for_Moral_Truth
09-29-06, 08:18 PM Honestly? No. A familiar is a class ability, a handy extra for casters to have. It is not a member of the party, nor should it be. It gains abilities as level increases, and that is it.
GygaxianSage
09-29-06, 08:20 PM Allow it but balance it by making it swap its regular additional familiar HD and benefits for the class level.
Heahengel
09-29-06, 08:25 PM IIRC a familiar has almost all of its abilities tied explicitly to it's master, i.e. it has HD = caster level HP=1/2master Hp, etc. I don't know how you would work adding class levels to it. Make sure you balance it somehow if you do want to do it. I don't think I would. If she wants a better familiar, there are feats that do that (Improved Familiar, but also some of the PHBII feats give your familiar new abilities).
Michaelot
09-30-06, 12:22 AM Heahengel is right about the feats, if she wants a more powerful familiar then go that route.

Personally I would not allow this. Giving class levels to a creature that already gains benefits according to its masters class levels is toting a fine line that will be difficult to balance. Additionally, the intelligence of most animals is pretty low. A cat has 2 INT. So what really could it do? Does she want it to pick locks? That takes some serious skills. The class really is pretty pointless for a domesticated animal...unless she want uber kitty with sneak attack damage. :eek:

Something inside of me says that I can see Puss n' Boots in your campaign and he will be getting arrested for catnip. :)
Titan W
09-30-06, 01:01 AM I would say that it would be almost a quest reward and balanced against the wealth of the character as if they had a highly skilled hired mercinary with them at all times. (About 25gp/month so you can figure about 5gp/quest to 20gp/quest probably double that mechanicly (You don't need to say they pay for it just reduce their share of trasure useful to them by about that ammount compared to the parts) also then make it a quest to get the familiar awakened and thus increase its INT score to one viable to class levels, this would be an interesting quest as first the charcter would need to discover who could cast the awaken spell, then have to navigate through the woods tracking down a druid etc. and could be woven into the plot (If you go this route I reccomend also making quests that give other players a chacne to be the focus as well as it keeps things fair.
Shinryouga
09-30-06, 01:51 AM Since a familiar starts with an intel of 6, and can use the master's skill ranks, there's really no reason why the creature couldn't behave as a PC in some ways. Its more a matter of whether your party wants another "effective" PC. It will take its share of the spotlight; are the rest of the player's ok with that?

Some Ideas: Perhaps a you could make some feats to give her some options. Say "Independant Familiar" which takes away the benefits the familiar gives and its access to the masters base attack/saves/ranks but allows it to function similar to a cohort a la leadership by having class levels? Or perhaps a feat to let it take feats of its own when the master's level would give a feat?

There's always the improved familiar feat: you could rule that when improved familiar is taken, instead of waiting a year to get a new, improved familiar of whatever type you please, you could "evolve" your current familiar into the an appropriate higher form; maybe this "evolution" is controlable and reversible, so your cat can turn into a panther and back at will. So lizard familiars could become shocker lizards, rats could become dire rats, cats into lions, dogs into wolves, hawks into dire hawks, etc, etc.

Just my two coppers.
Nom
09-30-06, 03:52 AM But the Int of 6 basically is a function of the master. Unlike animal companions, which have independent stats, the familiar derives most of its meaningful abilities directly from the master. It's not in any position to have independent abilities.
X-Codes
09-30-06, 05:20 AM No. End of Story. Spellcasters are already strong enough in their own role without muscling in on other roles by having a Rogue familiar.
Orbb_was_railed_by_God
09-30-06, 05:35 AM The sorcerer takes a familiar who takes levels in sorcerer, who's familiar takes a level in sorcerer, who's familiar takes...

Just say no, kids.
Reversefigure4
09-30-06, 06:05 AM A familiar generally lacks a lot of the things that are necessary to be a class - fingers, the ability to speak, sufficient abilities to learn things (how is the cat going to read?), etc.

And from a balance perspective, it's essentially giving the player 2 PCs for the price of one. Why would anyone play a rogue if they could play a spellcaster with a rogue cat?
Yanqui
09-30-06, 07:51 AM I'll weigh in on the 'no' camp. If she wants a nifty henchling, have her take the 'Leadership' feat.
totoro
09-30-06, 12:55 PM I think you could allow a familiar to take class levels at a rate of 1/2 caster level-2 (just to throw something out there that sounds fair), but grant none of the usual familiar abilities beyond those acquired at 1st level; and it doesn't get 1/2 hp of master, master's saves, etc.

You could even throw in 0-level sorcerer abilities when the master is 4th level (you can work it out). And give the familiar a commoner level at 2nd level spellcaster.
Whisper_Swiftblade
09-30-06, 01:19 PM I would allo it only if the fam was played by another person, making it better for role play, simpler for your girlfreind to keep track of stats (two pc's at once can be hard), and to avoid the mage getting too much power (a lv 10 with a lv5 is too powerful to just give away, but if you split things between two players...)

or if she would like to play the fam, and is insistent on it, tell her that all ex her and it receve is split between them (lv5,lv10 become lv7.5s0
Stormbrand
10-02-06, 02:29 AM Yes. So long as you are not a Warlock.

There is a book called "Crouching Monkey, Hidden Toad" which details all kinds of upgraded familiars. Including summoning more powerful base creatures, different 'familiar paths' so the companion can serve different purposes (like a bodyguard familiar) and class levels.

How it worked was there was an upgrade ritual at each spell level, called Familiar Training Ritual.

Familiar Training 1 - 1st level spell, 1000xp cost, familiar recieves it's first class level.
Familiar Training 2 - 2nd level spell, 2000xp cost, familiar is now a 2nd level character.
And so on up to Familiar Training 9.

How you would work in something like that for a Warlock I don't know, but make sure the character has to actually upgrade his familar rather than have the familiar do it alone.
tsuyoshikentsu
10-02-06, 03:13 AM How you would work in something like that for a Warlock I don't know, but make sure the character has to actually upgrade his familar rather than have the familiar do it alone.Use Magic Device.
halfling_cleric_monk
10-02-06, 10:20 PM Woah, dude! Your PC took the wrong feat; they really wanted Leadership and a kewl cohort. S'maybe let 'em change it out at the higher levels or something, or make her get the Leadership feat later and automatically count the Familiar as the Cohort.

...hey, at least it SOUNDS fair! (seriously, your PC meant to gain a cohort)
HermitIX
10-03-06, 07:35 PM i would say now. if you want a flavorful reason to say no. say the familiar is a magical animal. no mater how intelegent it becomes it still sees the world through "animal colored glasses."

now if your player just REALLY wants her familiar to gain class levels make a feat, similar to leadership.
Telhuine
10-03-06, 07:48 PM i would say now. if you want a flavorful reason to say no. say the familiar is a magical animal. no mater how intelegent it becomes it still sees the world through "animal colored glasses."

now if your player just REALLY wants her familiar to gain class levels make a feat, similar to leadership.

Of course, you have to decide whether you want to say no and get cut off, or yes and remain happily ensconced in that relationship :D
myeviltwin
10-03-06, 07:54 PM My understanding is that the familiar isn't entirely an autonomous being, but that's largely flavor. If she wants her familiar to take class levels she can take leadership and make her familiar a cohort too. Sadly that's two feats toward her goal.

Isn't there a feat somewhere that allows characters to get an animal companion, sort of like a druid but not quite as powerful? That might be the right balance here. Maybe not though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xpochian 09-29-06, 07:20 PM	ahoy hoy. in my on-again off-again campaign, balanced against lectures and tutorials, my girlfriend who plays the mid level warlock asked me something that, frankly, i couldn't answer as a DM. she wants to know if her familiar can gain class levels. she's a warlock who's taken the obtain familiar feat from complete arcane and has chosen a tiny black cat as her faithful companion. his only 'good' scores are dexterity 15, and wisdom 12 - being standard for the typical cat familiar. using these scores he'd most likely gain a class in warlock, rogue or something else that isn't language or ability score dependant; assuming i allowed it. i'm not 100% against this, but i'm also not overly for it either. does anyone have a take on it, or any ideas as to what the official ruling would be?
Minister_for_Moral_Truth 09-29-06, 08:18 PM	Honestly? No. A familiar is a class ability, a handy extra for casters to have. It is not a member of the party, nor should it be. It gains abilities as level increases, and that is it.
GygaxianSage 09-29-06, 08:20 PM	Allow it but balance it by making it swap its regular additional familiar HD and benefits for the class level.
Heahengel 09-29-06, 08:25 PM	IIRC a familiar has almost all of its abilities tied explicitly to it's master, i.e. it has HD = caster level HP=1/2master Hp, etc. I don't know how you would work adding class levels to it. Make sure you balance it somehow if you do want to do it. I don't think I would. If she wants a better familiar, there are feats that do that (Improved Familiar, but also some of the PHBII feats give your familiar new abilities).
Michaelot 09-30-06, 12:22 AM	Heahengel is right about the feats, if she wants a more powerful familiar then go that route. Personally I would not allow this. Giving class levels to a creature that already gains benefits according to its masters class levels is toting a fine line that will be difficult to balance. Additionally, the intelligence of most animals is pretty low. A cat has 2 INT. So what really could it do? Does she want it to pick locks? That takes some serious skills. The class really is pretty pointless for a domesticated animal...unless she want uber kitty with sneak attack damage. :eek: Something inside of me says that I can see Puss n' Boots in your campaign and he will be getting arrested for catnip. :)
Titan W 09-30-06, 01:01 AM	I would say that it would be almost a quest reward and balanced against the wealth of the character as if they had a highly skilled hired mercinary with them at all times. (About 25gp/month so you can figure about 5gp/quest to 20gp/quest probably double that mechanicly (You don't need to say they pay for it just reduce their share of trasure useful to them by about that ammount compared to the parts) also then make it a quest to get the familiar awakened and thus increase its INT score to one viable to class levels, this would be an interesting quest as first the charcter would need to discover who could cast the awaken spell, then have to navigate through the woods tracking down a druid etc. and could be woven into the plot (If you go this route I reccomend also making quests that give other players a chacne to be the focus as well as it keeps things fair.
Shinryouga 09-30-06, 01:51 AM	Since a familiar starts with an intel of 6, and can use the master's skill ranks, there's really no reason why the creature couldn't behave as a PC in some ways. Its more a matter of whether your party wants another "effective" PC. It will take its share of the spotlight; are the rest of the player's ok with that? Some Ideas: Perhaps a you could make some feats to give her some options. Say "Independant Familiar" which takes away the benefits the familiar gives and its access to the masters base attack/saves/ranks but allows it to function similar to a cohort a la leadership by having class levels? Or perhaps a feat to let it take feats of its own when the master's level would give a feat? There's always the improved familiar feat: you could rule that when improved familiar is taken, instead of waiting a year to get a new, improved familiar of whatever type you please, you could "evolve" your current familiar into the an appropriate higher form; maybe this "evolution" is controlable and reversible, so your cat can turn into a panther and back at will. So lizard familiars could become shocker lizards, rats could become dire rats, cats into lions, dogs into wolves, hawks into dire hawks, etc, etc. Just my two coppers.
Nom 09-30-06, 03:52 AM	But the Int of 6 basically is a function of the master. Unlike animal companions, which have independent stats, the familiar derives most of its meaningful abilities directly from the master. It's not in any position to have independent abilities.
X-Codes 09-30-06, 05:20 AM	No. End of Story. Spellcasters are already strong enough in their own role without muscling in on other roles by having a Rogue familiar.
Orbb_was_railed_by_God 09-30-06, 05:35 AM	The sorcerer takes a familiar who takes levels in sorcerer, who's familiar takes a level in sorcerer, who's familiar takes... Just say no, kids.
Reversefigure4 09-30-06, 06:05 AM	A familiar generally lacks a lot of the things that are necessary to be a class - fingers, the ability to speak, sufficient abilities to learn things (how is the cat going to read?), etc. And from a balance perspective, it's essentially giving the player 2 PCs for the price of one. Why would anyone play a rogue if they could play a spellcaster with a rogue cat?
Yanqui 09-30-06, 07:51 AM	I'll weigh in on the 'no' camp. If she wants a nifty henchling, have her take the 'Leadership' feat.
totoro 09-30-06, 12:55 PM	I think you could allow a familiar to take class levels at a rate of 1/2 caster level-2 (just to throw something out there that sounds fair), but grant none of the usual familiar abilities beyond those acquired at 1st level; and it doesn't get 1/2 hp of master, master's saves, etc. You could even throw in 0-level sorcerer abilities when the master is 4th level (you can work it out). And give the familiar a commoner level at 2nd level spellcaster.
Whisper_Swiftblade 09-30-06, 01:19 PM	I would allo it only if the fam was played by another person, making it better for role play, simpler for your girlfreind to keep track of stats (two pc's at once can be hard), and to avoid the mage getting too much power (a lv 10 with a lv5 is too powerful to just give away, but if you split things between two players...) or if she would like to play the fam, and is insistent on it, tell her that all ex her and it receve is split between them (lv5,lv10 become lv7.5s0
Stormbrand 10-02-06, 02:29 AM	Yes. So long as you are not a Warlock. There is a book called "Crouching Monkey, Hidden Toad" which details all kinds of upgraded familiars. Including summoning more powerful base creatures, different 'familiar paths' so the companion can serve different purposes (like a bodyguard familiar) and class levels. How it worked was there was an upgrade ritual at each spell level, called Familiar Training Ritual. Familiar Training 1 - 1st level spell, 1000xp cost, familiar recieves it's first class level. Familiar Training 2 - 2nd level spell, 2000xp cost, familiar is now a 2nd level character. And so on up to Familiar Training 9. How you would work in something like that for a Warlock I don't know, but make sure the character has to actually upgrade his familar rather than have the familiar do it alone.
tsuyoshikentsu 10-02-06, 03:13 AM	How you would work in something like that for a Warlock I don't know, but make sure the character has to actually upgrade his familar rather than have the familiar do it alone.Use Magic Device.
halfling_cleric_monk 10-02-06, 10:20 PM	Woah, dude! Your PC took the wrong feat; they really wanted Leadership and a kewl cohort. S'maybe let 'em change it out at the higher levels or something, or make her get the Leadership feat later and automatically count the Familiar as the Cohort. ...hey, at least it SOUNDS fair! (seriously, your PC meant to gain a cohort)
HermitIX 10-03-06, 07:35 PM	i would say now. if you want a flavorful reason to say no. say the familiar is a magical animal. no mater how intelegent it becomes it still sees the world through "animal colored glasses." now if your player just REALLY wants her familiar to gain class levels make a feat, similar to leadership.
Telhuine 10-03-06, 07:48 PM	i would say now. if you want a flavorful reason to say no. say the familiar is a magical animal. no mater how intelegent it becomes it still sees the world through "animal colored glasses." now if your player just REALLY wants her familiar to gain class levels make a feat, similar to leadership. Of course, you have to decide whether you want to say no and get cut off, or yes and remain happily ensconced in that relationship :D
myeviltwin 10-03-06, 07:54 PM	My understanding is that the familiar isn't entirely an autonomous being, but that's largely flavor. If she wants her familiar to take class levels she can take leadership and make her familiar a cohort too. Sadly that's two feats toward her goal. Isn't there a feat somewhere that allows characters to get an animal companion, sort of like a druid but not quite as powerful? That might be the right balance here. Maybe not though.