Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sacred Mesa 11-04-03, 08:54 AM	Hi, it's a long history so I will begin with an introduction. The party is composed of an Archer (elf), a psionic warrior (halfling), druid (gnome), sorcerer (eagle), a duelist(human). Error #1 A lot of time ago, the party went to a dwarven city to advice about some events around the city, but the elf did not give any advice but tried to force the things the way he wanted, the dwarves didn't let him, he tried again, the dwarves did not let him again, he tried one more time, and they asked him to leave, between a verbal fight between the elf and the "leader" of the dwarven clan, finally the escort him to the door. The elf was not allowed any more in the city. Error #2 Some time latter, there were another problem, and the party went to a meeting, where they found the same dwarf, he did not wanted to hear the elf talk, and after a little verbal fight, the psionic warrior went ahead and talked (but the elf and the sorcerer (elf for that time) tried to get into the discussion). Error #3 The dwarves were giving some weapong to help the party along their journey but obviously they were not going to give anything to the elf. BUT the elf managed to ask the psionic warrior to ask for stuff for him (ERROR) and the psionic warrior did it, the dwarf had listen all this and very ofended he left the meeting, without helping the party, and with one thing in his mind, "it was enough of the same elf, he was going to kill that pest, he has offended them long enough" The Dwarves send a group behind the party, to take out the elf, but WITHOUT bothering the mission or the other members of the party. This was across the sea, and all of them ended in an island ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok, last session... They have tried a few times, but the elf managed to get out of everything the dwarves have tried, but little intervention of the party (and this intervention was not really agresive). The party lost their ships, and the dwarves managed to get more people, and took their number to 35 (two small ships). The party, managed to be taken by a ship, and when they were going to leave the dwarven fired a lightning bolt to the archer (again to let the rest of the party live) but the party (with good hearth, but really stupid) fired arrows (ship #1), and two fireballs(ship #2, which haven't done anything), the fireballs disabled the ship #2 so the party escaped. Have to say that there was about 4 other alternatives to get out of the island without fighting the dwarves, and even escaping and leaving them in the island!!!! but the elf and the sorcerer (already an eagle) wanted to destroy the dwarves, they were saying this from 2 o 3 sessions ago. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Know the dwarves have the resources to catch the party : a seer (psion) know where they are and can use control air to make the ships move fast, a cleric could use control water to stop the ship, and between two wizards and a sorcerer could destroy the ship with 6 enlarged fireballs without getting in range of the party's sorcerer, the clerics are an effective defense, and there are out of the 35 dwarves 29 which are sort of fighters, and could destroy anything that was left. They haven't done this for the first order of let the rest of the party live, but know, it would be stupid to don't catch them and obliterate them, latter the dwarves could do the party's mission without problems. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Before you say anything, the party have to players which are masters, two that are great players, and other that well is just other player. They asked me for a really hard session, so it have been apocaliptic, the dwarves tolerate elves and the other way. They don't tolerate elves getting in their lives, and will do anything to stop that, it's against their "honor". What I have thought, was that the elf and the sorcerer deserve to die and trapped their souls, but the others could just be defeated (they hadn't done really anything). Is there a way to let the dwarves get revenge and let the others live? and is it ok for the dwarves? It's pretty sad that all of them die just for a bad rolplay of the elf and the sorc, the druid have been saying a lot of other ways to escape, but they don't listen to him... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Two other thing, out of roleplay. Last session, one player (the druid) casted a spell he didn't have just to help but it is not ok, and I think it's very sad to do something like that in a game, what could I do to him? he is like a child, I believe that dying could be good enough, maybe erasing his last session xp? I don't want to take care of childs, and I want them to understand that. The other problem is that this archer's player, doesn't know how to "play" he always seem to be dming and that bothers me (he is a player and I am the DM), he discuss everything, I have to remember him rule 0 all the time, but I am tired of that, we just play saturdays to relax a little and I just get stressed, I was thinking in ask him to leave, he is a great friend and I believe he will understand, the problem is that the sorc is his girlfriend, so she will leave too, and it really hurts, she IS a great roleplayer, even better than the archer. We are using d&d 3.0
Gothic_Demon 11-04-03, 09:15 AM	First of all, the Dwarves can continue to dog the steps of the characters for as long as you need them to. Just have them not attack the boat, for whatever reason, and try to take their revenge later. You are right, you don't have to kill all the characters because the Elf and Sorceror were rude, but you should start pressuring the party more and more. Have you tried suggesting to them that an apology might help the honour of the Dwarves? The Dwarves could become a great side-trek in any adventure as they continue to try and regain their honour. The Druid cast a spell he didn't have? If he did it deliberately, but doesn't do it normally, then take away his session XP, and tell him next time he'll lose a level. There's no need to kill a character over a dumb player act like that, especially since the spirit was good. As for another DM, simply tell him you'll argue rules with him at the end, and come to a decision YOU BOTH will stick by in the future, but for now, it works as YOU say. That always works great for my group; we have only 5 players, but four of us DM regularly.
Sacred Mesa 11-04-03, 09:28 AM	Well, because of the spirit of the session (they wanted it as hard as it could) I believe that don't attacking them at the sea knowing that they have the edge would be dump, goes against the way the have been played, they where ready for a sea fight since the beginning, but haven't done anything because of the party. Apologies, they wanted, but the dwarves have listened the insults of the party to the dwarves (the elf and the sorc) sometimes just for been near, others for divinations. Even a detect thougts could say a lot, since the elf have been thinking all this time on sinking their ships and destroying them. Yep, it was on purpose (the druid) and you are right the session XP should be enough, about the elf, we have talked about all this since the beginning, something about 3 to 4 campaigns ago. Thanks :D
The Vampire 11-04-03, 09:30 AM	At the start of the next session explain that this is the type of campaign THEY wanted and explain that maybe they should just be a bit more cautious on the way they RP and question your game. Tell the elf that he is risking damaging the campain and to just accept the fact that he may have to sit certain parts out as he has been a bit foolish, if he refuses he dies players shouldnt play invincibly (unless they are). The druid has performed an illegal act xp penelty is justified maybe 5*exp gained from spell cast. The dwaves may only persist untill apologised to and compensated for their boat. Just ideas:)
Llewelynn 11-04-03, 09:44 AM	From a roleplaying standpoint, you could give the elf a chance to admit he's been a jerk and apologize to the dwarves first. Do the dwarves have anyone capable of either sending a messenger (perhaps by flying, perhaps a non-dwarf) to the party on the high seas? Do the dwarves have anyone capable of doing a Sending spell? (Maybe a message like "You have one last opportunity to apologize to the dwarves for insulting them. Apologize now and live. Ignore this message at die immediately.") There are any number of opportunities like that. Conversely, you could have the messenger appear and tell the rest of the party that they are in the company of a criminal (as far as the dwarves are concerned) and some have even aided that criminal. If the party immediately subdues him and turns him over, they can go free, otherwise they will be responsible for what happens to them. If you're worried about the messenger getting captured, have it be a charmed goblin who was made to deliver it...the dwarves probably wouldn't worry about having to roast one goblin. In other words, while tactically the dwarves have the edge, you can still give the players one last shot at avoiding the TPK. If they don't take it, kill 'em with a good conscience. I should note though, that regardless of honor, killing a boatload of people (probably including sailors and other innocents) would not be a good act. If the dwarves are of good alignment, they should really avoid that sort of thing without a really huge justification -- something far bigger than just avenging their honor.
Sacred Mesa 11-04-03, 09:52 AM	Yep, you are right with that one, what I was thinking was to disable their ship, with a enlarged fireball or something like that, and use a sending (yes there is a wizard who have it) to ask the archer to surrender and go to the other ship with them, if he doesn't just destroy the ship. The majority of the dwarves are legal/neutral and even chaotic/neutral (for the sorc and a few barbarians), so I would not think twice about sinking the ship and rescuing the survivors latter to take them to the island (just the sailors and captain)... About the other players, I could consider a good pay to defeat them (ship disabled) and let them there in the sea... About the apologies... there is a lot of things the elf and the sorc have said to stop apologies from working, it's too late for that. Thank for the answers, you guys are fast...
Morka 11-04-03, 09:57 AM	Could you have the dwarves sink the party's ship in the middle of the sea, and believe them all dead? The party could be saved at the last moment by some sea elves or captured by sahuagins or by a Marrid. This way, the elf and sorceror are punished, the dwarves wash their honnor, the party survive but is in even bigger trouble.
Sacred Mesa 11-04-03, 10:01 AM	thought about that, but they want to have the archer with them, the rest of the party could be overlooked just by sinking the ship..., but the archer... is another history. He have to escape, and manage to make the dwarves don't destroy his partners in the process, or surrender, or just die (in which case they would take the body).
Morka 11-04-03, 10:22 AM	Originally posted by Sacred Mesa or just die (in which case they would take the body). Dammed dwarven necrophiles! :smirk:
Sacred Mesa 11-04-03, 10:32 AM	jaja, just thought that death is not a good punishment if he could get raised and keep bothering dwarven race, so they want to take his body, and imprison his soul too, so there's not easy way to get back the offender... Not the same for the partners: defeat, death or even let them alone in the middle of the sea is ok for them, the dwarves are not as mad with them as they are with the archer... I know 1 thing, from now on, the party will never again get into a town politics, and worst if the town is a dwarven town.
Gothic_Demon 11-04-03, 10:42 AM	I don't mean to be rude, but aren't the Dwarves going just a little too far for an ignorant Elf with a big mouth? Taking his body and trapping the soul? Is he really bad enough to require the punishment of an 8th level spell? And, more importantly to most Dwarves, the expensive gem required to hold his soul? At the end of the day, that's one impressive punishment for a stupid elf with a big mouth. What do they do to evil Drow?
Feyd Rautha 11-04-03, 10:46 AM	Obviously these players are asking for it. This is what many DM's justify as the "dumb move" that allows you to annihilate them. You should do just that....TPK. Give them the olive branch asking for an apology by sending (and who says the NPC crew has to do everything the players say. If they're facing certain death they might consider killing the elf themselves.) If you were to only kill the sorcerer and elf, what happens to the campaign? Are they allowed to come back in with new characters? Ever consider the fact that the same cycle will be started all over again when the new characters have a strange and intense hatred of dwarves and attack them on sight? I think your best option is to TPK them in order to put them in their place. Destroy their ship and as they are floundering in the water the dwarves will come up and rescue the other shipmates. You can't cast spells in the water without sinking and all their ranged attacks will be neigh useless...if there is any resistance then ten heavy crossbowmen will attack hitting the flat footed ac's of the players. Any players that could present a problem will be hit with a collapsing beam as the ship disintegrates and will take massive amounts of subdual (or real) damage. Leave the characters dead in the middle of the ocean and when they complain remind them that they were the ones that insulted the dwarves and all of their actions have consequences. I look forward to hearing how things go and what you plan for your next campaign ;) Oh, and as for your "second DM" do what others suggested and tell him that you can argue the rules later...this is how it works right now. You might even let him DM a game after your TPK. Feyd
Sacred Mesa 11-04-03, 10:50 AM	jaja, yes they are really drastic, I know you are right... But I was tired of the way people played dwarves, and how they wanted a hard campaign... jeje, I am having fun with this dwarves (fanatic dwarves). Either way, they knew the way this dwarves were, there was a time they went to this city without any problem, even had a friend in there, and they saw that this guys were very fanatic about their laws. Now the archer is just taking what he wanted, thanks to god it's only against him (the others have been very good when talking to them). Even the duelist (by the way he didn't come when he party attacked the dwarven ships, he could have stopped that madness) talked to them a long time ago, and everything were really good for all of them (but not for the archer).
Sacred Mesa 11-04-03, 10:59 AM	Well they could get back with new characters, but I was thinking that the party size is excesive, there is 6 people (there's a psion who comes sometimes) and wanted to take it down to 4 people. The other could be to do the TPK and latter play the post apocaliptical world :rolleyes: but I don't feel ok if I kill the other players for this bad move of the archer and sorc. As I said, the duelist didn't even come to the last session, I am shure he would have stopped that madness. Maybe he could stop next session TPK by some mystical way, or the Archer which I'm shure will read this thread will do it. (he uses my nick)
Sacred Mesa 11-04-03, 12:35 PM	What I will do is disable their ship first, then send a "message" asking for the archer to surrender or they will destroy the ship, if he does, I will let him roleplay his death if he wants to and give him a new sheet for a new character, but, I know his new character will get into trouble too. If he doesn't surrender I will destroy the ship, and the sorc if she tries to get in reach to send a fireball to the dwarven. About the druid, I already took half his XP, if he does it again all the XP or lose a level (would depend in my mod I guess). About the other problems, I will talk the next session, asking for being honest (it's just a game...) and letting them know that I am the DM and not them, without saying names, the others don't have to know. Well next session will be on saturday, there's plenty of time to read your opinions, please give any advice you want. jeje, but again, I will think the TPK solution and begin a new one... they will respect the dwarves I know... (but it hurts the other characters).
The Vampire 11-05-03, 05:55 AM	have them taken prisoner that opens up a new can of worms, no weapons digging in mines covered in an anti-magic field they may even find out that the dwarves are about to unleash somthing evil (a balor ;)) and stop them. this could give them ONE mor chance in the dwarves eyes and its pretty apopalyptic especially it a balor gets out! Or nuke them all :D
Sacred Mesa 11-05-03, 08:44 AM	Well there's already an invasion going on, two groups (devils and demons) are fighting each other in the material plane, trying to conquer it, so there is plenty of balor and pit fiend. The party is trying to keep a low profile by now, searching for a safe place for their people, and looking for someone (one of the players know who) who can help them. I'm using the BOVD so the invasion is very nasty. Remember... 3.0
Sacred Mesa 11-17-03, 09:59 AM	Well, finally the archer dies, but he made it a good death... It was almost a TPK, all the party took the archer side, even the druid who did shine in that session. The druid and the sorcerer went to the dwarven ships to attack, the first as a porpoise and the other flying (eagle), a control air made the sorcerer trip a little harder, and a control water made it for the porpoise, but both of them made it throw... The dwarven disabled the party's ship with three enlarged fireballs, that the psion escaped with a time hop, the psion warrior, ranger and archer took some damage and the ship began to sink. The sorc fired a few fireballs one of wich was dispelled, but the others destroyed some of the dwarven ship, she was taken down by a few bolts, the druid tried to sink the ship with a bend wood, but the wizard where prepared for that and fixed the ships. The ranger and archer boat was destroyed with a fireball, which they both managed to escape with little damage. The archer again managed to swim to the ships taking some bolt damage, but made it, while the others already unable to do anything else, went to the dwarven ships and were received, the psion reappeared in open water and went to the dwarven ship too, the psionic warrior asked to talk to the captain. The archer, got on the ship, and fighted with a few dwarves using crossbows. While the sorc where cured by the psion and ranger, and asked them to leave because she were going to help the archer from the inside of the ship. The druid helped the archer again, using and spell (don't remember the name) which gave total concealment to all of them, archer and dwarven, he used that to get into the water again, while the sorc fired a fireball directly in the captain room, which hit the dwarf and the psionic warrior, the dwarf went to the eagle and disabled her again. When he was about to kill her, the archer made it throw the hole the fireball made and fought against the dwarf, the psionic warrior went to a corner of the room and watched everything (the player had to leave). The archer killed the dwarf, but then two dwarves made it throw the hole too, and killed him... (the ranger and psion, managed to seal the room door without been notice). A cleric trapped the archer soul, and raised the captain body, for the next session the archer soul will be freed. The archer and the sorc players where taken out of the party by me (the master) because of an excess of players, but they did pretty well on their last battle. Now the rest of the party made the travel using one of the dwarven ships and keep going...