A few questions on turning undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

A few questions on turning undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gellor
06-29-05, 10:20 AM 1. If turned undead cannot flee they cower. Now the PHB states “others can attack them in any fashion, without breaking the turning effect” Does that mean that if Thorg the fighter approaches the turned zombie he can just hack away and the zombie will just keep cowering and not attack him?

2. If an evil/neutral cleric rebuked undead, does the same thing apply? Can Thorg again walk up and swing away w/o it attacking him?

3. Evil cleric rebuked a zombie that was 5’ away. Would the cleric then need to back up to 10’ to attack him?
MrkGrismer
06-29-05, 10:44 AM Yes, yes and yes but then he would break the effect by attacking.
gellor
06-29-05, 10:58 AM First of all, thanks for the reply, but I have a follow up... :)

Ok so on my third point you mentioned that the cleric would break the rubuke attempt by attacking. Does that only apply to a rubuke and not a turn?

I ask because the PHB states "you can attack them with ranged attacks (from at least 10' feet away). So, it is my understanding then that turned undead can be attacked by the turning cleric as long as he is 10' away w/o breaking the turn, but evil clerics attacking undead they have rebuked break the rebuke effect no matter what?
Alynn
06-29-05, 11:03 AM 1) Yes, in fact thats the Standard Operating Procedure with undead IMC. If they are underground everyone positions themselves so they cant escape and the cleric turns them, then everyone rushes in (except the cleric) and hacks away.

2)Yes, the exact same applies.

3) Yes he would have to immediately move away from the undead before it's next turn to move or the turning effect for that one undead will be negated.

EDIT: Actually, there isn't a stated 10 foot rule for rebuked undead, nor is there anything that says the effect is negated if attacked by the cleric, so I'd almost be inclined to say that an evil cleric can both attack according to RAW, and come within 10 feet of a rebuked undead. I just reread the section and it's not there. However, I personally would make it very similar to turning, that getting too close would break the effect.
gellor
06-29-05, 11:23 AM Thanks for the reply Alynn I have a question on your third point.

"Yes he would have to immediately move away from the undead before it's next turn to move or the turning effect for that one undead will be negated."

Round 1: Zombie wins initiative and attacks cleric with its claws, cleric burns his move action doing something and then uses his standard action to turn the Zombie. The zombie then cowers at the clerics feet because he cannot get away for various reasons.

Round 2: Zombie still acts first in the round and finds the cleric within 10'. Is the zombie now free to attack because he got to go first in the round?
Alynn
06-29-05, 11:26 AM Read my edit, it actually doesn't state that in rebuking the cleric must say away 10 feet, only for turning according to RAW. Personally however I'd make them a bit more equal, in fact thats why I wrote that, because I believed it to be so, until I reread the section.

Which RAW wise, it makes sense, because he isn't afraid of the cleric (as they are in turning) they are awed by him/her and just stand there transfixed by the clerics greatness.
gellor
06-29-05, 11:41 AM I just checked out the edit and reread the rules in the PHB (for about the 5th time :))

It states in the PHB that the cleric can be within 10', he/she just cannot approach any closer. So... IMC I'm going to rule that the rebuking cleric can approach the "awed" undead and not break the rebuke as long as he doesn't attack them within 10'.

I think the designer's point of having undead flee turn attempts was that the undead want to get the heck outta there and that if you keep pushing them they will break out.

By not having rubuked undead flee I think you have to give the rubuker the ability to approach. However that dosen't give him free reign to just walk up and chop away.

Over all I think the designers added unesseccary complication to turning by not just having all undead flee. If you can command them, great, but if you fail and still get the turn/rebuke they should headout.

Thanks for the replies.
MrkGrismer
06-29-05, 12:48 PM Rebukeing is the same as turning, other then the 'flavor', Undead feat the cleric in either situation, trying to flee and if cornered and attacked (from within range of the cleric) the fear is overridden by the inevitability of destruction. I rule that both turn and rebuke are mechanically the same. Although I suppose technically the rules do not say so.
Bruunwald
06-29-05, 12:52 PM Yes, yes and yes but then he would break the effect by attacking.

No, a cleric can attack his turned undead from ten or more feet away, with a spell or ranged weapon. It's only if he approaches them that they come out from the effect.
MrkGrismer
06-29-05, 01:47 PM If he attacks from within 10' he breaks the affect, by my reading.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gellor 06-29-05, 10:20 AM	1. If turned undead cannot flee they cower. Now the PHB states “others can attack them in any fashion, without breaking the turning effect” Does that mean that if Thorg the fighter approaches the turned zombie he can just hack away and the zombie will just keep cowering and not attack him? 2. If an evil/neutral cleric rebuked undead, does the same thing apply? Can Thorg again walk up and swing away w/o it attacking him? 3. Evil cleric rebuked a zombie that was 5’ away. Would the cleric then need to back up to 10’ to attack him?
MrkGrismer 06-29-05, 10:44 AM	Yes, yes and yes but then he would break the effect by attacking.
gellor 06-29-05, 10:58 AM	First of all, thanks for the reply, but I have a follow up... :) Ok so on my third point you mentioned that the cleric would break the rubuke attempt by attacking. Does that only apply to a rubuke and not a turn? I ask because the PHB states "you can attack them with ranged attacks (from at least 10' feet away). So, it is my understanding then that turned undead can be attacked by the turning cleric as long as he is 10' away w/o breaking the turn, but evil clerics attacking undead they have rebuked break the rebuke effect no matter what?
Alynn 06-29-05, 11:03 AM	1) Yes, in fact thats the Standard Operating Procedure with undead IMC. If they are underground everyone positions themselves so they cant escape and the cleric turns them, then everyone rushes in (except the cleric) and hacks away. 2)Yes, the exact same applies. 3) Yes he would have to immediately move away from the undead before it's next turn to move or the turning effect for that one undead will be negated. EDIT: Actually, there isn't a stated 10 foot rule for rebuked undead, nor is there anything that says the effect is negated if attacked by the cleric, so I'd almost be inclined to say that an evil cleric can both attack according to RAW, and come within 10 feet of a rebuked undead. I just reread the section and it's not there. However, I personally would make it very similar to turning, that getting too close would break the effect.
gellor 06-29-05, 11:23 AM	Thanks for the reply Alynn I have a question on your third point. "Yes he would have to immediately move away from the undead before it's next turn to move or the turning effect for that one undead will be negated." Round 1: Zombie wins initiative and attacks cleric with its claws, cleric burns his move action doing something and then uses his standard action to turn the Zombie. The zombie then cowers at the clerics feet because he cannot get away for various reasons. Round 2: Zombie still acts first in the round and finds the cleric within 10'. Is the zombie now free to attack because he got to go first in the round?
Alynn 06-29-05, 11:26 AM	Read my edit, it actually doesn't state that in rebuking the cleric must say away 10 feet, only for turning according to RAW. Personally however I'd make them a bit more equal, in fact thats why I wrote that, because I believed it to be so, until I reread the section. Which RAW wise, it makes sense, because he isn't afraid of the cleric (as they are in turning) they are awed by him/her and just stand there transfixed by the clerics greatness.
gellor 06-29-05, 11:41 AM	I just checked out the edit and reread the rules in the PHB (for about the 5th time :)) It states in the PHB that the cleric can be within 10', he/she just cannot approach any closer. So... IMC I'm going to rule that the rebuking cleric can approach the "awed" undead and not break the rebuke as long as he doesn't attack them within 10'. I think the designer's point of having undead flee turn attempts was that the undead want to get the heck outta there and that if you keep pushing them they will break out. By not having rubuked undead flee I think you have to give the rubuker the ability to approach. However that dosen't give him free reign to just walk up and chop away. Over all I think the designers added unesseccary complication to turning by not just having all undead flee. If you can command them, great, but if you fail and still get the turn/rebuke they should headout. Thanks for the replies.
MrkGrismer 06-29-05, 12:48 PM	Rebukeing is the same as turning, other then the 'flavor', Undead feat the cleric in either situation, trying to flee and if cornered and attacked (from within range of the cleric) the fear is overridden by the inevitability of destruction. I rule that both turn and rebuke are mechanically the same. Although I suppose technically the rules do not say so.
Bruunwald 06-29-05, 12:52 PM	Yes, yes and yes but then he would break the effect by attacking. No, a cleric can attack his turned undead from ten or more feet away, with a spell or ranged weapon. It's only if he approaches them that they come out from the effect.
MrkGrismer 06-29-05, 01:47 PM	If he attacks from within 10' he breaks the affect, by my reading.